Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Find your position and hold firm to it.  For instance, "We love
    you and respect you, but we're going to make our own decisions and
    be responsible for our own lives."
    
    Do not, not, not get bogged down in debating the rightness or wrongness
    of a decision.

    This is a very tough one, Sue, and I truly feel for you.
    
    About 10 years ago, I lived with a delightful man for almost
    a year - during which time my parents completely disowned me!
    ME - the ONLY child!!!  They never met the man, nor wanted to,
    and it wasn't a matter of religious beliefs - just what will
    EVERYONE think.  We lived 500 miles apart and did not share any
    common ground.  We broke up - he moved to another state and my
    parents never said a word about it - just started acting "normal"
    again.
    
    My father is now 72 and I recently asked him how he would feel 
    about me living with someone now.  He answered something like
    "hell no, Charlotte, not now, you're the best friend I have and
    I'm not going to alienate you."  Bless the man.
    
    Well, I haven't given much advice here.  One thing I have learned
    from listening to various "experts" on the subject is that no one
    ever died from this sort of thing.  Keep that in mind.
    
    You should probably get a lot of good advice here.
    
    with love,
    Charotte
   

    Sue,
    
    There is an expression I picked up at a church camp when I was
    a young married woman that could possibly be of help to you.
    The speaker was talking to parents who wanted their children
    to follow their faith. He said "God, has no grand children".
    
    This means that we are responsible only for our own relationship
    with God/The Divinity/the goddess etc. what ever name we give
    to the divine. We cannot 'be saved' for our children or transplant
    what ever our faith is to them intact. They have to come to
    terms with the divine, the spiritual side of existance by themselves.
    
    If you and your husband are comforatable with this view point,
    then I offer it as on suggestion of a way to speak to his parents.
    Also, if there is a clergy person or spiritual leader/healer that
    you both are comfortable with, I would strongly recommend talking
    to such a person about your problem and ask for suggestions on
    how to deal with the situation. 
    
    Bonnie

    Thanks everyone so far.  I really like the statement Bonnie made
    about each individual responsible for their own relationship with
    their own God.  I think I will try to formulate the discussion around
    this basis if it comes up.  
    
    Unfortunately the saga continued last night.  My in-laws called
    from Hong Kong and declared that they will not see Lois at her
    apartment until Bruno moves out.  I am not willing to "disown" Lois
    over this (in fact she and Bruno will be staying with us this spring
    for a long weekend).  I am prepared to stay out of this right up
    until the point where Chuck and Janice want us to "take sides".
    WHen that happens I don't know what I will do.  This will all
    eventually blow over I know, and all anyone will remember is that
    I sided against my in-laws.  
    
    
    And then there is the probability that when Chuck and Janice come
    to see us they will start in on our beliefs and practices.  I have
    a rather private and unconventional belief structure and when I
    tell them about it is going to go over about as well as a lead balloon.
    
    
    I think I will head for Tahiti until this is all over!
    
    
    Sue

    Sue, remember that you do not _have_ to describe your own personal
    faith to your in-laws!  You can choose to say that it is a private
    matter and that your faith is very precious/important to you.
    
    If you're lucky, they may assume your faith is the same as theirs.
    Since that is probably unlikely, what I am trying to say is that
    you really can choose whether to have them mad over what your beliefs
    _are_ or have them mad because you refuse to tell them.  Decide
    which is the most tolerable (or the least explosive)!
    
    Good luck!
    Nancy

                       
    	Sue,
    
    	Sorry to hear that your in-laws may be effecting your life
    due to their own convictions and beliefs. I'm sure they cant help
    themselves from feeling the way they do, because of how deep their
    beliefs are in this matter. I'm not suprised to hear that an ultimatum
    has been issued already.
    
    	Remember, these are people who may believe that "we are not of our
    own and have been bought with a price" etc. Convincing them differently
    is not the recommended way to procede. That you can sense they want
    you to side with them should tell you something - perhaps that they
    wish to impart the feeling of shame on "the one living in sin".
    By gathering the family into a cohesive unit, maybe the intent
    is to ostracize one of it's members in an effort to shame them "for
    what they've done".
    
    	Be as un-cooperative as possible in this matter. If anything
    else that may be contendable in a religious context ever happens, dont 
    mention it to them. They'll only feel obliged to "fix up" what they 
    know about. Save them the trouble, perhaps they'll eventually give
    up trying to "save" others as a basis for their own validity.
    
    	Joe Jas

    Well, it seems you have two different problems...
    first how to deal with the in-laws pressuring you and your family
    to adopt their beliefs.  and second how to deal with the 
    sister-in-law 'living in sin'.  
    In both cases the best advice I can give, is make sure you
    and your husband AGREE on the position you will take with your
    parents.  You both must present a unified front, or you will
    have the third problem of what your in-laws think of your
    'fall from grace'....
    Then, as said in (.2) and various others....just be firm with
    them that you both have your beliefs, and all the talk in the
    world won't change yours (or theirs) so, let's not discuss
    it...period...
    As for the sister/daughter, unfortunately you two will have to
    take a side.  The best the parents will ever do, is probably
    learn 'to love the sinner while hating the sin'...but that may
    even take some time.  
    It's unfortunate that some religious folks can't see the 
    difference between 'sharing their faith' and proselytizing...
    
    Good Luck!
    deb
    

Hello,

I'm Bonnie Reinke's husband.  She asked me to answer your note.  I 
don't really feel comfortable putting anything into Womannotes, much 
less on this subject, but here goes.

I regularly use prayer to resolve seemingly impossible situations such 
as the one you face.  If you wouldn't be against trying it, then read on.

You are faced with enormous energy which I propose you use to your 
(and all your relatives') benefit.  The technique here is similar to
that used by Judo masters, wherein they redirect the force of their
opponents to their own advantage.  Only here there are really no
opponents -- only immense grief, resentment and misplaced "love". 

This technique will work if you use it alone, but as previous notes 
have mentioned, it would be better if you could be at-one with your 
husband on this.  I take it from your base note that he continues to 
resent his own upbringing, if not also his parents themselves.  

	It seems we are doomed to re-live experiences 
	wherein we haven't forgiven the players. This 
	may be your husband's last chance to put those
	experiences to rest, let go of his resentment, 
	and forgive his parents while they are still 
	alive.  

If he's like me, that forgiveness will come very hard -- at first only
through gritted teeth.  But in my experience, God always answers a
prayer seeking forgiveness for another.  (Many techniques for healing
the memories exist.  If he seeks, he'll find the right one for 
himself.) Should he follow this path, he will find a new sense of
peace that will anchor him through the tempest that follows. 

Above all, you yourself must be centered.  To master cosmic energy,
you must be at-one with yourself, or you'll be blown away.  (I'm
recommending the equivalent of walking into a power substation that's 
gone awry and rearranging the switches.  God help you if you haven't
done your homework!)  There are numerous techniques.  I like
affirmations, such as repeating several times daily, "I am Altogether
Lovely," or repeating the Holy Name of God given in Exodus, "I Am That
I Am,"  or praying the Lord's Prayer.  (Am I betraying my Christian
background?  I also affirm the paths given by others over the ages.) 
Given where you'll be traveling, the 23rd Psalm might not be too bad,
either. 
 
Now for the heart of the matter. You are fortunate that you are
dealing with people who love God, even if you and I might wonder how
that could be.  Ask God to PURIFY Chuck and Janice's love for all their 
children, especially Lois.  Now ask that the children's relationships 
with their parents be transmuted into the purest love.  Visualize all
the players as being suffused in Light.   Affirm all this as reality.  
If you can't imagine change, ask for help in imaging perfection. What
we see is what we get. 

Note that the above does not presume to quantify or qualify what 
"love" is.  It's when we place limits on our requests that we get 
limited results.  

You could do similar things with their apparent desire to meddle.  
They seem to have lost faith in their parenting techniques, and they 
want a second chance.  (Mary didn't necessarily approve of everything
Jesus did, either.) Would that they could see their children with
fresh eyes!  I have no doubt that each has distilled the essence of
their parents' teaching and taken to heart the lessons that were
important to them.  In doing so, each is honoring their father and
mother, albeit maybe unconsciously.   Pray for peace and faith that
they did the right thing, and trust in the wisdom and maturity of
their children. Pray that the children consciously honor their father
and mother while maintaining the freedom nay the command that they 
follow their own paths. 

A personal confrontation will almost surely come.  Do your best to 
pray before and during the action that you will say and do everything
in accordance with God's perfect will.  

                                        Then do what comes naturally!


Chances are, you'll do something that will seem to really upset the
apple cart.  Keep the faith!  God works in mysterious ways.  Often 
times the boil must be lanced before true healing can occur.

                              YOU  ARE
                             ALTOGETHER
                               LOVELY
                                AS I       
                                 AM

                           DONALD  REINKE

    I've faced this problem before, though it's always been with
    a couple, both of whom are good friends, breaking up with
    malignity. I've never actually *had* one of them ask me to
    choose sides, but I've been aware in a couple of cases that
    the person wanted me to do so. My standard response to the
    threat of "it's either him/her or me" is:
    
    "A true friend would not ask me to choose between friends.
    If that friend does ask, the choice has been made by the
    asking."
    
    --- jerry

    
    
    Hi Donald, it is a pleasure to meet you.
    
    
    I have read all the replies and printed out a few of them to save,
    yours is one of them.  I am having a very hard time with this one.
    I just this past year got my own mother and father out of my face
    and I am not looking forward to the upcoming confrontation.  I am
    preparing to allow Chuck and Janice into my spirituality on a very
    small scale.  I am hoping that by showing them that I am not an
    without spiritual anchorage, nor is my family, that I will not have
    to hurt them by telling them that they are not welcome in my spiritual
    life.  If I can let them know that their fears are ungrounded about
    my relationship with my God, then I can avoid a potentially disasterous
    episode with them.  
    
    But even if they leave Ken and I alone, there will still be a problem
    in how they handle Lois.  Ken and I are tentatively planning our
    response to the upcoming uproar as this:
    
    	All of Chuck and Janices children are wildly successful in their
     	lives.  They respect and love their parents as people, not just	
    	because they are their parents.  But they don't necessarily
    	share their convictions.  This doesn't mean failure on anyones
    	part.  In fact it is indicitive of some very real successes
    	in raising children.  
    
    	God lovingly allows all persons a choice.  It is noones place
    	judge what choices are made.  This is a freedom granted from
    	the highest authority and is not challengable.  We must respect
    	the choices and comfort ourselves in the knowledge that God's
    	hand is in all, even if He choses not to reveal himself to us.
    
    
    What do you think?  Is that "middle of the road" enough for everybody
    so that I don't step on to many toes?
    
    Sue

    Hello again,
    
    Sounds like either your energy level is a bit low just now, or you're
    not a person who likes confrontation.  I think your response is
    excellent, from the rational point of view, but I also think
    rationality doesn't have much to do with the situation.  
    
    If a Bible quote would help, find out the reference for the one
    that goes something like, "A man shall leave his parents and cleave
    to his wife."  Place as much emphasis as you like on "leave".

    If you find you have to step on some one's toes, do it with gusto!
    Might as well be hanged as a wolf than as a sheep.
    
    Yours, 
    
    Donald Reinke

    Hi Bonnie!
    
    You are right, my energy level at this time is a bit low but I am
    actually trying a new tactic in my life.  I always have gotten right
    in the middle of the fray in all family confrontations (granted
    they were usually about something I did :^)).  For once I think
    I will let it ride without my two cents worth other than the stand
    Ken takes when we tell his parents how we feel about Lois's decisions.
    I think that I might just let it go at that.  
    
    Unfortunatly I can't be that detached when it comes to the issue
    of my "salvation".  That is a totally other matter and I am ready
    and waiting for that one to happen.  I will do the tango all over
    their toes if they won't accept my explaination of my beliefs and
    leave it at that.
    
    I spoke about this to my mom last night and she said something
    interesting.  She mentioned that my mohter-in-law didn't
    want to go back to the Phillipines (her only grandchild is now 2.5
    and she missses him VERY much) but my father-in-law was insistant
    about going back.  By "creating" a family conflict of large enough
    magnitude that they had to come home, my mother-in-law might have
    circumvented my father-in-law without him knowing it!  THis theory
    holds a bit of water with both Ken and I and I am very curious to
    see how this develops in light of the other two parts of the problem.
    
    
    Keeping everyone posted,
    Sue

    Hi Sue,
    
    Actually that was Don who wrote that last note not me, :-).
    (If he continues to write in this string it may get confusing).
    
    The business about your mom-in-law creating an incident so
    that she can come home makes a lot of sense actually.
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. Don's dad is a retired minister and his parents are going
    to be moving near us next spring. I don't expect anything similar
    to what you are going through but I can relate a lot to it. In
    the years that Don and I have been married, there have been times
    when his parents and I didn't agree in re our mutual religious
    out look, but most of those issues have been resolved. (knock
    on wood. :-) )

    Reply to .0,
    
    All the suggestions are great.
    
    May I suggest something else? It will probably devolve into the
    normal situation of you ignoring them and their continuing concern.
    
    So why not get it outta' the way from the beginning. Ignore them!
    Be nice, smile, but ignore them. You'll wind up doing that anyway.
    
    If they put up too much of a hassle tell them not to call unless they
    can act human. The onus is _not_ upon you or your husband to act like
    they want you too, neither is your relative "living in sin" responsible
    for their attitude. It is their responsibility to act like civilized
    humans in the 20th century. 
    
    Actually this is pretty funny and if I didn't have to deal with
    something similar to this on a daily basis I'd be totally hysterical.
    B^) 
    
    Can you imagine any _real_ situation that would cause two people to
    move halfway around the planet that is any funnier than this? Isn't
    this funny? Two very religious people moving so far to help save
    the souls of their inlaws ONLY to have their inlaws refuse to comply
    with the PLAN. I think it'd make a great sitcom.
                   
    It's kinda' sad that you didn't get a chance to tell them how you
    felt before they left the Phillipenes. It could have saved them
    time, effort and money for the long trip. But then again maybe they
    need to visit?
    
    Don't worry, it will all be less of a hassle than you think.
    Anyway the anticipation is probably greater than the event itself
    so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
    
    
    
     

    Did you manage to resolve this?

    Hi folks!!!
    
    
    Well, here we are 7 months later and the saga continues!
    
    Chuck and Janice did come home.  They settled out in CA near Lois
    and managed to hold out (did not go and see Lois) for about 3 weeks.
    But all of the children presented a unified front and told them
    that they were being childish.  So it became a mexican standoff
    and C&J backed down and met Bruno.
    
    I truly have to hand it to this young man, he makes a GREAT first
    impression.  Because he couldn't work (no work visa), he rebuilt
    my inlaws car engine (he is an airplane mechanic by trade), built
    a kitchen table and hutch for Lois, tuned my brother in laws motorcycle
    and about a million other things.  At the end of March, Lois and
    Bruno announced their wedding plans.  They got married civilly in
    Switzerland, and had a ceremony here 4 weeks later after they got
    back.  So, given all of this, C&J have accepted him about 85%.
    
    We had one conversation about *my* beliefs and I told them that
    it was very personal and not open to debate.  Suprisingly they backed
    off!  They are working on Ken a bit, but that is his problem!!
    
    In fact, all is so calm they will be back in the Phillipines for
    about 2 months at the end of the summer.  I guess they satisfied
    themselves that their children weren't sacrificing chickens in the
    yard or anything :-)
    
    
    Another crisis weathered, although I would have liked to go to Tahiti
    and deal with it from there!!!
    
    Thanks for all the ***GREAT*** suggestions!
    
    Sue