Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    For supplemental information, see also:
    
    Human_Relations
    57 - On cheating
    259 - why did he cheat?
    665 - effects of "chating" on the faithful
    707 - cheating - how did you handle it?
    888 - cheating wife?
    
    -Jody
    

    I think you should ignore it.  I think it's better for people to
    concentrate on how they live their own lives than to meddle in other
    people's.
    
    Lorna
    

    I agree with Lorna, that is something that you should keep to yourself.
    
    You could be wrong, the 'cheater' could stop and return to the marriage
    and work things out, there are multiple scenerios where saying nothing
    could result in something positive being worked out. Telling will in
    general have only one result.
    
    Bonnie

    re .2:
    
    I think that's wrong.  If it's a best friend, you're *already*
    involved in her or his life.
    
    re .0:
    
    Well, you can't really tell, because that may end up destroying
    your friendship, but neither can you ignore it.
    
    What I would do is tell the cheating spouse that I know what
    he/she is doing, and that if he/she doesn't stop it that I'll
    let my friend know exactly what is up.
    
    Then, if the cheating spouse doesn't quit it, I wouldn't come
    right out and tell my friend, but I might ask some probing
    questions, like "Everything going okay with X?" to try to draw
    that person out, because he or she may suspect anyway.
    

    Both actions are probably appropriate at various times and
    under different circumstances.  That said, this is my cut:
    
    Please evaluate your evidence very, very, very carefully.  If you
    were to say something to your friend, someone WILL get hurt.  If
    your friend refuses to believe you, your relationship with that
    friend is damaged.  If your friend DOES believe you, your friend
    will live through feeling betrayed by someone he/she loves very
    much -- and that HURTS.  The loss of faith/trust will damage the
    relationship to the point that it will be permanently changed,
    if it survives at all.
    
    Note that where your friend places his/her trust will determine
    which relationship sustains the worst of the damage.  In either
    case, your friend will lose faith in SOMEBODY she/he cares about.
    
    Regardless of what kind of jerk the SO is, by attempting to tear down
    trust in that person you are guaranteed to hurt your friend.  It may
    well be that this is a lesser hurt than your friend will have by not
    being told, and in that case it *would* be an act of love.  Just know
    that is is not free, and your friend will pay the cost.  Make sure
    what you deliver is worth the price.
    
    Beth

Good point Beth.

I think I have the D!-model of friendships. If it was a close female friend
that was being cheated on (I don't care for the phrase 'being hurt'; maybe it's
a blessing in disguise), I would feel bound to take a course of action that
culminated in telling her (maybe Ellen's). Same thing with a close male friend.
Whether or not the friend's SO was of the same gender, er uh, sex.
	Mez

I don't think I could give a general answer for that question.  It would really
depend on who was involved, my relationship with them, their relaionship with
eachother, etc.

I am very, very wary of what I consider the too-common occurance of people
assuming they know what's best for other people.  Just because *I* would want
to know if my lover was cheating on me, doesn't mean every person would want
to know.  The sword cuts both ways, though...just because I think my friend
would be better off without my knowing, who am I to make such a decision?

I think I would also take the tack of talking to the cheating SO, and try to
convince them to stop and/or tell their SO.  After that has failed, I would
*probably* tend toward honesty.  Lying (which includes deception, which
includes not telling someone something when you *know* they'd want to know)
is very difficult for me, ethically and emotionally.  Part of the reason I
might tell is purely selfish - because not telling would take a lot of 
emotional energy on my part.

In general, you have just desribed one of my standard nightmares.  I *hate*
being in the middle of things. Honesty is so basic to my nature, it is
*very* difficult for me to be in a situation where people aren't being honest
with me or eachother. It makes me uncomfortable.  I would probably find myself
avoiding the people involved until I ro they came to some resolution.
I hate being in a situation where one friend tells me something relevent
to another but "Don't tell him/her I said that...".  I'd probably get
very angry at the cheating SO for putting me in such a situation.

Related comment...in a mailing list I am on about alternate lifestyles,
a recent discussion about cheating has led a number of people to say that
they regularly cheat on their spouses, but don't see a problem with it,
because they aren't hurting them.  "What they don't know won't hurt them"
and to a certain extent that's true.  It's not the cheating, but the 
finding out that hurts the cheated-on lover.  That attitude *really*
bothers me, but I don't have a moral highground to say "That's wrong,
and so if I know about it, I won't let you continue it that way."

Another related comment...be very very careful you *know* what the situation
is.  They might have an open relationship, and your "information" could
be seen as unwarranted prying. Especially if the deal in their relationship
is "You can do what you want but don't tell me about it."  (I know couples
like this.)  If *both* people agree on the "What we don't know won't hurt
us", you'll only be adding unneccesary pain to the relationship.

D! 

    I'd keep quiet.  I believe lovers always know so if they choose
    to ignore it, for whatever their personal reasons are, it's not
    my place to bring it up.  Other people's love lives are not my
    business.  Anyone I'd be friends with would be intelligent enough
    to make their own choices so my revelation would seem to presume
    the person wasn't smart enough to run their own love lives.  I know
    I'd tell someone saying something like this to me to butt out. 
    If I put up with it, (which I never would, anyway), I'd have my reasons
    and they'd be nobody's business.  A friend would accept their friend's
    choices and not try to "educate" them in matters of the heart.
    
    Other info, like if I knew my friend's SO had just gotten out of
    prison and my friend didn't, for instance,  I'd tell immediately.

    
    as usual, i agree with sandy
    

    >I believe lovers always know so if they choose to ignore it, for
    >whatever their personal reasons are, it's not my place to bring it
    >up. 
    
    I don't believe this is always true.  It's certainly not true that
    the lover is always CONSCIOUSLY ignoring what's going on.  And the
    lover may fear or suspect, but not be sure if she's being
    paranoid, may lack evidence to question. 
    
    I don't know whether I'd want to know or not. On the whole I think
    I would, because you can't deal with a problem you don't know you
    have, and what you fear is almost always worse than what reality
    is.
    
    Whether to tell someone else?  It would depend on how close I was
    to her, how well I knew her SO, and how good my evidence was. 
    Assuming we were close friends, I'd  probably take a middle ground
    of asking leading questions that would give her an opportunity to
    talk about her worries if they were a problem for her, and if she
    didn't feel that she could confide in me, I'd keep my suspicions
    to myself.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    In reference to my previous reply, I'd have to say that there
    are maybe only 2 or 3 friends I have where I would "interfere"
    in this way in such a situation.  They are my best friends, and I
    would definitely stay out of other relationships.
    
    But if it was happening to any of my (blood-related) sisters,
    brothers, or cousins, I would *definitely* do what I outlined
    in my previous reply.
    
    Does that make a difference to anyone who's advocating silence?
    What if this was happening to your own sister, the one your grew up
    with?
    

    I would respect the intelligence of a sibling, too.  But if I was
    asked flat out by sibling or friend, I would be gentle but honest.
    
    Bonnie Randall - You referred to the 'injured party' as perhaps
    needing more "evidence" before confronting a wayward lover, as a
    possible reason why one might tell.  I disagree that any evidence
    beyond one's own feeling is necessary.  Feelings are valid and should
    be enough of a concern without any corroborating evidence.  Evidence
    gathering is nasty business.  Monogamous lovers should be close enough 
    to discuss their feelings.  Unless the suspicious one doesn't really
    want to...

    Re .11, I don't have a sister, but, in a couple of years, if my
    daughter were in a monogamous relationship, and I saw her SO with
    another woman, I'd tell her, and ask her if she knew what was going
    on.  I had actually forgotten this, but over a year ago I did see
    my ex-husband's ex-girlfriend with somebody else, and I told him.
    I have one other close friend, who happens to be male, that I would
    probably tell if I saw his girlfriend with another man.  But, other
    than that, I would mind my own business.
    
    Lorna
    
    

    
    "what you don't know can't hurt you" is nonsense...the truth will
    come out eventually. I would confront the cheater long before I
    would inform the cheatee.....just the fact that you know effects
    the realtionships.

    re: .12
    
    I'm not in the habit of making accusations, or even asking for
    clarification, based on my own notoriously volatile, impulsive,
    and frequently mistaken feelings.  If I feel neglected, that's one
    thing, and one to be discussed with spouse directly. 
    
    But what if one's husband is  acting differently, and the wife
    asks if something's wrong, and he says, "No, nothing," but he's
    still acting strange.  What then?  Maybe it's just a rough time at
    work, or brooding about the condition of the world, or wishing he
    could bag everything and sail around the world on a little boat
    all by himself, but maybe it's something else.  My feeling is
    everything?  What about his right to privacy.
    
    No, in that situation I wouldn't say anything without clear
    evidence that there was something wrong.
    
    --bonnie

    re .14, I guess I just don't understand what makes you think it's
    any of your business.   (in 99% of the time)
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    If I was directly asked by my friend whether or not I was aware
    of any "cheating" going on by the lover, I would tell the truth;
    however, if I was NOT asked, I would keep my own counsel.  As a
    friend, my position is to be supportive, caring, and "there" for
    my friend rather than to add to her problems.  Chances are she will
    find out soon enough anyway.
    
    Barb

    Be careful. If you told either me or my sweetie that the other was
    "cheating" you'd likely get at least a tongue lashing, and quite probably
    seriously damage our friendship. If it were ME I'd ask you why you were
    telling me this. You'd better have a good answer, because if it's "I thought
    you should know" or "it's for your own good" I could well react
    vehemently.
    
    I like the suggestion of confronting the "cheating" partner. That would
    seem to me to work well in all cases.
    
    	Good luck,
    	-- Charles
    

    Having been married 21 years my husband (now ex) told me he was
    involved with someone else. After my divorce I found out he had
    been cheating on me with various woman for many years, my feelings,
    for 21 years what I did not know did not hurt me.  If I had wanted
    to know that he was cheating on me I more than likely could have
    figured it out for myself.  IMHO denial is a means of protection
    from hurt, I would not want any "friend" to deny my right of denial.

	Over 10 years ago a dear friend of mine gave me this sage advice:

		Don't ever tell anyone something that was said
		about them by someone else unless it is good news,
		life threatening or your personal opinion (which
		you also admit to having).

		If someone does tell you something that they heard
		about you that does not fit in the above catagories
		question their reason for doing so and realize that
		they are no longer a "friend."

	This is very difficult to live by - most of the time it makes
	great sense.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Any interpertation of your reality by me is
			still my reality not yours.

    
    
    
    
    	{WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW WON'T HURT YOU}
    	{ITS THE TELLING THAT HURTS NOT THE CHEATING}
    
    
    
    	I disagree with these comments.  Surely you are hurt because
    of the cheating when you've found out not because you've been told.
    
    
    	In my opinion "what you don't know hurts even more".  You have
    to go through the humility of other people knowing, assume your
    SO has been lying to you and other obvious reasoning.
    
    
    	People you would rather not know are lacking something in the
    relationship ..........Mags
    
    

    	{WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW WON'T HURT YOU}
    	{ITS THE TELLING THAT HURTS NOT THE CHEATING}

That's not what I hear. What I heard is:

	Don't assume the person wants to know. Don't assume they don't know.
	Don't assume that they think it's "cheating". Do realize that telling
	will hurt REGARDLESS. No one will thank you.

Also think about your motives for telling this. Will it reduce the amount of
pain? (Perhaps in the long run, but perhaps not...) Why are you telling? What
are your motives?
    
    	I disagree with these comments.  Surely you are hurt because
    of the cheating when you've found out not because you've been told.

Surely? Not so surely. That's what people have been saying.
    
    	In my opinion "what you don't know hurts even more".  You have
    to go through the humility of other people knowing, assume your
    SO has been lying to you and other obvious reasoning.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the relationships involved,
but that aside, what *benefit* is there in telling? To spare your friend pain?
If your friend suspects but is denying it, they WILL NOT THANK YOU for making
it impossible to deny. They may be "working on it" and might actually fix
things. If you bring it up you may make reconciliation impossible. I think that
if you feel a need to do something, that confronting the "cheating" spouse is
the least harmful alternative.
    
    	People you would rather not know are lacking something in the
    relationship ..........Mags

Now now, you're being awfully judgemental there. I notice that you're in Ayr,
I personally have found that attitudes about sex and relationships are
significantly (!) different in the U.S. and the U.K. Perhaps that explains some
of the difference in viewpoint.

	-- Charles

    re: .22
    
    I agree.  I have met people who have relationships where there are
    established groundrules for:
    
    1.  seeing other people (or not)
    2.  telling each other about it (or not)
    
    So if you do decide to tell without knowing if there are any
    groundrules, the relationship could seriously suffer...
    
    -Jody
    

    RE .21
    
    A little presumptious of you to say the least.  I meant what I
    said, "what I did not know did not hurt me", when I was emotionaly
    ready to except the marriage for what it was or was not, I was
    willing to open my eyes to what was going on without the help of
    some well meaning gossips.
    
    
    

    What is confronting the cheating spouse going to accomplish??  Do you
    honestly think that will stop him/her from any further cheating?  I
    think not.
    
    In my opinion, it all depends on your relationship with the "cheatee"
    as well as the "cheater", and what you know about their relationship. 
    I happen to know a couple of people going thru this now.  In both cases
    the husband was cheating on the wife and neither wife knew.  Both women
    went through months of agony wondering what was wrong with their
    spouses, verbal abuse from them when trying to talk about it etc.  In
    the end both found out something that had they known earlier might have
    prevented at the least some pain.  It also depends on where your
    loyalties lie - with the cheater or the cheatee.
    
    If it were me, I'd want to know.  That's how I see things, and I guess
    I would appreciate a friend who came forward and told me what he/she
    knew.
    

 It all depends... everything depends.

 If you do tell, you run the risk of offending the type of people who a) don't 
care, b) don't want to know, c) have an open marriage, etc. If you don't tell,
you run the risk of offending those who think "How could you be my best friend
and know s/he was doing this and not tell me?" You've got to know how your 
friend is going to react.

 If I knew that one of my friend's spouses was cheating on them, I'd only
tell if a) it would be for the best in my assessment, b) they wanted to know.

 How to tell if they want to know? You may have an idea already, but if you 
don't, I'd recount an anecdote about a situation where a spouse cheated, and
what the reaction of the "cheatee" was. You can generally gauge by the reaction
of the friend whether they want to know or not.

 The Doctah

    Mags,
    
    I have already been through this experience and all I can say is
                                      
    1) You should try to assess how your friend will react, but prepare
       for the fact that this may terminate your own relationship with
       them. If they don't completely believe you, things will never
       be the same again.
    
    2) You must make absolutely sure that the cheating did occur. Make
       sure you are objective about this.
       
    
    
                   If it were me, I would want to know.
                   
    
    Jillianf

    I've been through this one, only there was a different twist to it.
    (In fact,  several different twists!)  that don't seem to be represented
    in previous replies. Sorry about the length, I started to ramble a bit.
    
    I was involved with a man (lets call him Dave), who repeatedly swore
    he loved me and wanted to marry me.  I didn't feel that way, and told
    him.  I had meet Dave through a mutual friend, (let's call her Sandy).
    Sandy had known Dave for about 6 years, me for about 4.  
    
    Dave was friends with his ex. (Lisa).  I knew through Sandy that Lisa
    was still interested in Dave.   I told Dave (& Sandy) that if he wanted
    to pursue a relationship with Lisa, I'd gracefully bow out. My feelings
    for Dave were no where near what he professed to feel for me.  I asked
    Dave point blank if he was sleeping with Lisa, regardless of any
    emotional feelings (or lack thereof) he had for her. Dave said no, and
    insisted he had a purely platonic relationship with Lisa.
    
    Well, Lisa had Dave's son.  I found out about it 4 months after he was
    *born*. (I heard the baby crying in the background during one phone
    call.  Lisa and the child had moved in.)
    
    I asked Dave why he hadn't told me.  He said that he didn't because he
    knew I would break up with him if he did. (He was right!)  I asked
    Sandy, and she said that she had known since Lisa was 1 month pregnant.
    In other words,  for over a *YEAR*.
    
    Sandy said she didn't tell me beacuse it wasn't her place to
    'interfere.'  She used all the reasons that have been stated in
    previous replies. 
    
    I asked her if she thought I would have wanted to know, and she said
    yes, she knew I would have wanted to know, (in fact i had asked her
    about dave & lisa during/after the birth and she had told me there was
    nothing going on.)
    
    What happend was that I no longer see Dave.  Instead of being able to
    still be friends with him, I felt used.  He knew what my re-actions
    would have been, but proceeded to lie to me to 'keep' what we had for as
    long as possible.  'Used' is about the only word (printable!) that can
    describe my feelings.
    
    Sandy feels that she did the right thing,  (in fact the only thing) by
    saying nothing & waiting for me to find out by myself.  I feel that she
    betrayed my trust by not telling me something that she admittedly knew
    i wanted to know,  in order to not 'rock the boat' (her own words). And
    that she had even 'assisted' in my being used. (accomplise after the
    fact, if you will.)
    
    I wrote this story out for a couple of reason.  one is that it *still*
    makes me angry.  And this topic reminded me of it. Another is that I
    learned some things.  There are some people who wouldn't want to be
    told, and probably wouldn't believe you or would channel all the anger
    at the proverbial 'messenger of bad tidings'.  On the other hand, there
    are some people, like me, who would  prefere to be told.
    
    So whether you tell or ignore, depends on the person who is being
    cheated on.  Best to discuss it in the abstract and find out what 
    their feelings are,  not *yours*.  Don't base the decision on what YOU
    would like to know/ don't know.  Base it on whether THEY want to be
    told.  
    
    Oh Yeah, my friendship with Sandy?  We still do things together on
    occasion, but less and less.  I no longer feel able to count on her as
    a friend, someone who's there for me regardless what. Sandy would not
    like to be told; so she didn't tell me.  Thus she lost a close
    friendship by her in-action.
    
     Mary

>(in fact i had asked her
>    about dave & lisa during/after the birth and she had told me there was
>    nothing going on.)

 By the act of her lying, she facilitated your being used. That was wrong.
I wouldn't be able to be friends with her anymore if she did that to me.
I definitely think she bears some guilt in this situation.

 The Doctah

Once upon a time I had two close friends I met over the network, both
from MA.  One was a woman who proclaimed I was her best friend in the
whole wide world.  The other was a man who proclaimed to be hopelessly
in love with me.  I was hesitant to become romantically involved with 
the man, yet when I finally was ready I sensed hesitancy on his part.

Through painful communication, I found out he and this best friend of
mine (who had been my friend for over a year) had just ended a 4-month 
affair.  She knew of my feelings towards him, I'd told her everything.
She hadn't told me, nor had he, because they didn't want to hurt me.
After their relationship ended, and I found out about it, each wanted
to confess everything to me and make everything OK.  Well!  For me, it
was too late.

Deceit does not a friendship make.

Carla

    
    
    
    
    	Charles,
    		I'm really not that bad.  What I say on memo is only
    questions in my head. Not my opinion....I really don't know the
    answer.
    
    				Mags
    

    
    
    
    
    Folks,
    		Please be assured I am not a gossip but a person who
    loves her friend very much...........Mags
    

    Scots don't gossip, for one thing :-)
    
    Seriously, Mags, I think your warm feelings come thru very well.
    
    						=maggie

    
    
    
    
    From one Maggie to another.........Thanks