Conference turris::womannotes-v2

       re .0:
       
       Sex without entanglements?  Sounds dull, if not impossible.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    I doubt I'd ever PAY for sex unless it came with a pretty high health
    pedigree and a certificate of mind-shattering excitement.  The thought
    of sex with few or no entanglements has, at times, been 
    appealing, though.
    
    -Jody
    

    I find the though of having sex with a stranger uninteresting at
    best and even a bit unsavory. Why would I want to share myself with
    someone that couldn't care less about me? But perhaps I'm just a
    prude. liesl

    G'Day,
    
    	I don't think I'd like to have my money invested in a enterprise
    like this one.  The chances of making money from male prostitutes for
    females would be pretty remote.  I think it is reasonable to say that
    if a woman wants sex with 'just anybody' then all she has to do is go
    and get it for free just about anywhere.  There would be plenty of
    willing guys out there to satisfy her requirements I'm sure.  If, on
    the other hand, the male pros will also be available for other men then
    I think the chances of financial reward would be much higher.  There
    are a lot of men out there that are 'closet bisexuals' and going
    somewhere like that would be a lot easier than visiting a gay bar as
    there would be a lot less chance of being caught out by somebody -
    especially his wife!
    
    David.
    
     

>    I find the though of having sex with a stranger uninteresting at
>    best and even a bit unsavory. Why would I want to share myself with
>    someone that couldn't care less about me? But perhaps I'm just a
>    prude.
    
     Along these lines....
    
     I don't know if it is possible (for me) to have sex with someone
    completely free of emotional entanglements. I feel like I'm sharing a
    part of myself, so I always feel some sort of bond to whomever the
    partner in sexual relations is. I'm not sure why.
    
     As far as the bordello goes, whatever floats your boat. I see no
    problem with women using such a service if they want. It might be a bit
    slow in catching on (who knows? maybe not!) I imagine there must be
    quite a few female hornballs out there (why not? there are plenty of us
    guys. :-)
    
    The Doctah

    Although women who want hassle-free sex can get it anytime, anywhere,
    the search for same can be dangerous business.  In our society
    a woman who projects a desire for sex is still often considered "fair 
    game" for anything else the man cares to dish out.  Once she oversteps
    the bounds of "no-sexual-desire-in-good-girls", she becomes a "bad
    girl".  Being alone with a strange man who considers you a "bad
    girl" can be risky.  It takes a lot of self confidence,
    single-mindedness and luck to get away safely, never mind satisfied.
    
    To that end, I believe a bordello for women might succeed not so
    much in that it offers sex but that it offers safety.  I believe
    everyone would prefer to have sex with love but that doesn't mean
    no love should equal no sex despite what most women have been conditioned
    to believe.  These are the last generations of women raised on the
    "swept away" theory.  As sex becomes more and more a regular part
    of a woman's life, (and not just something she saves to trade for a
    white knight, a fur coat, a gold ring and a date, etc), and especially
    if the expression of misogyny continues to be an acceptable part
    of maleness, the issue of safety will become increasingly important.

    Perhaps these are unreasonable assumptions, but I'm sure that if this
    is going to be done PROPERLY, the guys will be the ULTIMATE in
    attractive, from the perfect eyes, to the perfect chest hair, to the
    perfect buns to the perfect legs. They will be trained in the gentle
    arts of pleasing women to the point of multiple orgasm, and they will be
    consummate actors, able to make a woman believe that she is special,
    beautiful and wonderfully desirable. Oh, and they will NOT rush!
    
    Yeah, I'd pay for it.    'Cause I certainly haven't been finding THIS for
    free lately.

    
    In fact, the more I think about this, the more I like it!
    
    Can you imagine, walking into a "hotel" of sorts, and registering
    (probably with a Visa - who knows how much you'll spend!). "Ordering"
    from a catalog if its your first time. Perhaps you may need to  have a
    first, second and third choice in case 1 & 2 aren't available. (In
    fact, walk-in's might be discouraged. Some things need to be
    appointment only.) You seat yourself in a waiting area. An attractive
    man brings you the beverage of your choice, telling you how nice you
    look. Then "HE" comes to your table, and sits down. One of the most
    gorgeous, appealing, desirable men you've ever seen. The kind of man
    whom you never thought would look twice at you. His eyes are undressing
    you, his smile says he likes what he sees. Not a leer, but a gentle
    appreciative look that is full of warmth and attentiveness. You can't
    help but smile back. Already, in the back of your mind, you do NOT care
    how much this costs! You talk for a while. From mundane things like the
    weather, to what you're doing with your life, where you want it to go,
    things you've always dreamed of. He's the best listener. He seems to
    care. To really want to know who you are. You're relaxed, you're
    comfortable. He suggests that the waiting area is too public, he
    invites you upstairs...
    
    You get the picture.

                      <<< Note 893.8 by DEMING::FOSTER >>>

>    Perhaps these are unreasonable assumptions, [...]
>    perfect buns to the perfect legs. They will be trained in the gentle
>    arts of pleasing women to the point of multiple orgasm, and they will be
>    consummate actors, able to make a woman believe that she is special,
>    beautiful and wonderfully desirable. Oh, and they will NOT rush!
 
Yeah, I'd place large sums of money on your assumptions being unreasonable.
You don't think the guys would rush?  When they are getting paid by the
customer?  Besides, from what I have heard about "bordellos", while the
women may be friendly and pretty, they don't tend to be gorgeous, or
fantastic in bed...why would the men be?   Any man who can convince me that
even though he is taking my money to have sex with me, that he still
considers *me* desireable and worthwhile would have to be a *fantastic*
actor - and is probably making more money in Hollywood than he would as
a male prostitute.

Also (this is a gross generalization) I'll bet most male prostitutes would
not be in the top 10% of the intelligence or educational bell curve, and
so I suspect your wish for delightful exciting conversation before the
act is equally unreasonable.

re: .3 Liesl - I am about as far from "prude" as a woman can get, but I
agree with you.  It isn't that I think women "shouldn't" have free-and-easy
sex, just that the thought doesn't turn me on.  Casual sex (and I've had
more than my share) just isn't worth my time.  *I* wouldn't pay for it.
Even if I wanted it, I could get it for free.

However, in general, I bet there *would* be a lot of women who would be
interested in this.  A lot of men who go to prostitutes are married men
whose wives aren't interested in sex, or unimaginative or whatever (at
least in their husbands eyes), or the men want to do things that they think
would be to "dirty" for their wives.  I could see women who's husbands
aren't interested in sex, or who are just "wham bam, roll over and go to
sleep" types of men.  Also women might have fantasies about doing things
they would never suggest to their husbands because of the fear (possibly
justified) would think that only a slut or whore would want to do such a
thing.  I really don't think that young, single or sexually ininhibited
women would be that interested, generally.

Sure, I might invest in such a business.  And if I were placing bets, I
would bet that 90% of their (female) customers would be middle aged or
older married women from conservative families with dull love lives.

D!

    
    D! I'd beg to differ on the impossibility of my scenario. If you
    "stocked the ranch" with college students who needed the money,
    and gave them reasonably flexible hours, (and TRAINING) you'd probably
    have a shot at some really decent men.
    
    Women have certainly been known to do it, I can't see why men wouldn't.

    D!'s reply (.10) about the possiblity of many of the female clients
    of Mustang Ranch being married (as are many of the men) prompts this 
    "I-can-just-see-it-now":
    
    	As he drives up for his 4:30 tryst, whom should Mr. X meet 
    	coming out of the Ranch but Mrs. X. . .
    
    Perhaps in another few years we'll see Mustang Ranch Marriage 
    Counselling Service.
    
    Steve
    

	 RE: .8
	 
>    Perhaps these are unreasonable assumptions, but I'm sure that if this
>    is going to be done PROPERLY, the guys will be the ULTIMATE in
>    attractive, from the perfect eyes, to the perfect chest hair, to the
>    perfect buns to the perfect legs. They will be trained in the gentle
>    arts of pleasing women to the point of multiple orgasm, and they will be
>    consummate actors, able to make a woman believe that she is special,
>    beautiful and wonderfully desirable. Oh, and they will NOT rush!


	 You're EXACTLY right....that's exactly what I have been
	 thinking.  If women go to a male prostitute it would be
	 because he has something exciting to offer her.  Women have
	 to enjoy sex to want it......  And, quite oft than not, many
	 men don't take the time to give the woman the ultimate
	 excitement and enjoyment.  These men would be trained in the
	 art of lovemaking, just as the women there are trained.

	 Yea, I think it would go over BIG BIG BIG....  ;-)  Would I
	 pay?  If I wasn't getting fulfillment from my partner or if I
	 needed fullfillment and didn't HAVE a partner...you bet I
	 would. (I would have a hard time sneaking around behind
	 someone's back and doing it, though.)

	 After all, it would have to be "safe" and secure.  (You'll
	 find most of the bordellos in Nevada are just that, since it
	 is legal.)


	 kath

>     <<< Note 893.10 by TLE::D_CARROLL "It's time, it's time to heal..." >>>

>Yeah, I'd place large sums of money on your assumptions being unreasonable.
>You don't think the guys would rush?  When they are getting paid by the
>customer?  Besides, from what I have heard about "bordellos", while the
>women may be friendly and pretty, they don't tend to be gorgeous, or
>fantastic in bed...why would the men be?   Any man who can convince me that
>even though he is taking my money to have sex with me, that he still
>considers *me* desireable and worthwhile would have to be a *fantastic*
>actor - and is probably making more money in Hollywood than he would as
>a male prostitute.


	 FWIW.....The Mustang Ranch is high up there with the best of
	 the best.  From what I've heard, the women ARE beautiful, the
	 atmosphere is wonderful, the services are expensive, and you
	 get just about anything and everything your heart desires.

	 At the average run-of-the-mill bordello, you're right, it's
	 highly unlikely that this would go over, but at the Mustang
	 Ranch?!

	 

> Casual sex, i can get it for free.


	 So can I, but very rarely in my life has casual sex EVER been
	 fullfilling and satisfying.  What's the saying?  "Once you've
	 had it, you never wanna go back"?


	 kat

    To further 'Ren's thoughts...
    
    He looks at you in that special way.  He smiles.  The chemistry
    is almost tangible.  He takes your hand as you ascend the stairs.
     At the top a small room is waiting.  One with a few small candles,
    music of your choice awaiting you at the CD player (with a 6-disc
    capacity, if necessary).  There are chilled beverages in the fridge.
    He strokes your cheek as you sit at the small table by the window,
    enjoying the view through delicate ivory lace curtains.  You glance
    down at the oriental rug, thick and plush....and your eyes rise
    to see the splendor of a canopy bed, with the covers neatly turned
    down....
    
    You just can't rain on a fantasy parade.  If I can dream it, and
    I can hope for it, and I can afford it, then it may well be possible.
    Depends on the management, the employees, the establishment's
    willingness to cater to women's desires.  I think prostitute's in
    many places get away with fast, dirty, less-than-wonderful service
    BECAUSE THEY CAN.  Who asks for better than the norm - or more?
    High-price call-girls in high-falutin penthouses are also available
    for those who WANT more and are willing to PAY more, after all...
    Also, since it's illegal, who's going to complain?
    But if the customers make their wants and needs known, and make
    it clear they're willing to pay for full satisfaction guaranteed,
    then who's to say someone won't come along and CATER TO THEIR WHIMS?
    
    -Jody
    

    Hmmm, I guess its time I get out of computers and open up my school
    on the "Tao of Love and Sex."  Expensive, but worth it ;^).

    It will probably sell like hotcakes. There are as many 
    men as women who consider _______ gross, who would never
    ______, who don't like ________, and positively *refuse*
    to ________.

    
    This is a fun topic!
    
    re: .15, the expression that comes to my mind is "bad sex is better
    than no sex at all".
    
    CQ

RE:  fun topic.

Yes, but I am reminded off the thousands of prositutes who are very
poor and desperate people.  Addicted to crack and lifting her skirt in
some alley for $5 for crack.  Runaway teenage boys and girls forced to
submit to adults to survive.  Women enslaved by pimps, their own
bodies no longer their own.  

I wonder how it would really feel to be a prositute.  I don't think I
would enjoy it at all...

>              <<< Note 893.20 by RAB::HEFFERNAN "Juggling Fool" >>>

	 Yes, but.
	 :-)
	 
>I wonder how it would really feel to be a prositute.  I don't think I
>would enjoy it at all...

	 I think we're talking about two very different type of
	 prostitutes.  We're talking the Mustang Ranch, we're talking
	 high-priced call girls.  Many of these women take pride in
	 what they do, many enjoy it, many don't do it "just for some
	 crack."

	 Yes, I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy at all being a prostitute
	 in the streets, begging for crack, living in slums,
	 etc.....My heart goes out to these women when I see them on
	 the streets.  I hate society for what they force these women
	 into doing (selling their bodies to survive).

	 But we're not focusing on that kind of prostitute here, we're
	 talking about very high-priced women.  Prostitution is not
	 always a dirty slimy, must-do-to-survive business.  You'll
	 find that some of the prostitutes in Nevada are among the
	 wealthier.

	 I seem to remember an interview with some women from the
	 Mustang Ranch.  Each one said that it wasn't something they
	 would want to do forever, but that they enjoyed it, and it
	 paid good money.  Also, many of them were happily married.


	 kath

    
    
    I believe the quote you are thinking of is:
    
    "A night of bad sex is still better than a good day at work"
    
    (one of my favorites, right up there with "Good girls go to
     heaven. Bad girls go everywhere").
    
    We all prostitute ourselves in some manner.  Selling portions
    of our body, be it our mind or our physical body.  Or parts
    thereof.
    
    I don't agree that "society forces" these women into a position
    of prostitution, selling themselves for $5 in back alleys, to
    buy drugs. Obviously it's a complex problem, but as a member of
    society, I refuse to be blamed for the choices these women have
    made.
    
    Deb
    

    
    I can remember that time when I thought being a call-girl would be
    neat. Fancy clothes, nights out on the town and money for sex. What
    a life. To bad the reality is not so much fun. I have(had) two close
    friends that were prostitutes. One was of the call-girl variety and
    one of less status. Often times the men were crude and ugly, even
    the ones willing to pay big money. Sure, there are always exceptions
    and the Mustang ranch is a high class place but sex for sale is just
    that and NOTHING more.

    All these female imaginings of a sexy man looking longingly into
    your eyes are just that, a fantasy. You would just be another trick
    they put on a show for and nothing else. Prostitutes have little
    respect for the johns and they will likely laugh about you
    afterwards when they chat about their evenings. I just don't have
    that much capacity for suspension of disbelief. Sex for hire is
    pretty much assembly line sex. You can pay big money to fancy it up
    and make the fantasy seem real (and perhaps there really is nothing
    wrong with that) but you are just an interchangeable part on the
    assembly line. Regular customers are treated differently and there
    can be some degree of even fondness but that's not what most
    customers get.

    Do you remember in "Fear of Flying" when Erica Jong talked about the
    Zipless F**k? That seems what this is trying to address. When I
    first read that it seemed a reasonable idea but anymore it just
    seems senseless. I'm not really enjoying being mostly celibate but
    at least when I do indulge it's someone special to me and satisfies
    more than carnal desire. (sigh...there I go sounding rightgeous and
    it's not my intent but I don't know how else to word it) liesl

    What a coincidence....I was watching an afternoon talk show, I believe
    it was last Wednesday (either Phil or Oprah) and they were interviewing
    the owner of "The Mustang Ranch".  Believe it or not, the ranch
    is now listed on the New York Stock Exchange.  His wife actually
    runs the place.  He is expanding to have males, only it will be
    in a different building, alongside the ranch.
    
    They showed a video of it and it's absolutely gorgeous.  Plush
    furniture, spas in the rooms, and, yes, beautiful woman.  When you
    walk in the door, there are beautiful woman everywhere.  They stroll
    around and you pick out your partner. I don't know if it was made
    up for the show, but, the woman had on evening gowns, and very big
    smiles....
    
    It is mandatory, (I forget exactly how often) that they are all
    in touch with a house doctor who examines and clears the woman.
    If they do contract some disease, or whatever, they are let go,
    and are not rehired.  No business is done by the woman on the outside.
    (no side jobs)
    
    If I was to utilize that sort of business, I definetly would make
    it a place such as the ranch.  Have you ever noticed the pick-ups
    in any given bar on a Saturday night?  You have no way of knowing
    what you're picking up and probably couldn't afford to catch what
    they have.  I think it's a good idea if one is a user of that sort
    of service.
    
    Soooooooo, brighten up folks, safe sex is on the rise. (tee-hee)!
    
    *the fantasies sound great!*

    
    	I saw that show too.
    
    	If I remember correctly, the talk show host also had a couple
    	of gorgeous ex-call girls on the show.  They were paid a lot
    	of money, like thousands of dollars per night, and had what I
    	supposed could be called an "elite" clientele.
    
    	They said that rich men can be just as disgusting as poor men
    	and that sex for money is degrading no matter how much money
    	you actually make.  They didn't do it out of pride, they did
    	it out of greed, and they sent a very strong message out that
    	no matter what, it's just not worth it.
    
    	Carla
    

>Yes, but I am reminded off the thousands of prositutes who are very
>poor and desperate people... 

>I wonder how it would really feel to be a prositute.  I don't think I
>would enjoy it at all...

As Kath pointed out, this is another type of prostitution.  This is
*legal* prostitution.  Imagine!  Regulated for disease, protected by
the same laws that protect other employees in that state, taxed, etc!
No pimps.  No forcing females into addictions so that they stay 
hookers, even when they don't want to.  No raping of the women by
tricks and pimps alike, and having the police laugh it off since she
are "just a whore anyway".  No periodic raids, accompanied by beatings
and sometimes rape, by the police.  No blackmail.  No sleeping in
alleyways if she couldn't find a john to take her home that night.  
Imagine!  A world where a woman has *total* control over her own body,
including the right to be paid for using it however she wishes if 
someone is willing to give her the money.  What a concept.

And now they want to give men the same freedom.  More power to them.
When the rest of the states wake up and realize that Nevada's legalization
of pornography *prevents* the horror described above...well, let's just
say I am not holding my breath.

Off my soapbox now.

Oh, as for the idea of getting college students, who knows?  I don't know
many college students who would do that, but then, I didn't go to your
average American college.

At any rate, I am quite positive that there is no way even the most
handsome, intelligent, charming prostitute could convince me that I was
anything more than a check on their "trick card".

D!

    I would think that if it was good, I'd tip. And become a regular.
    
    If I can have a regular hairdresser, and a regular manicurist, and a
    regular housekeeper, why not a regular stud? Sure, its a business. But
    I find it hard to believe that its so impossible to make it seem like a
    fantasy.
    

    I can see it now.
    
    Stud Muffins "R" Us		;)
    
    Yee-haw!
    
    -Jody

Re .28:

    Yes, but how much "should" one tip a stud?  And do you tip the
    owner of the establishment?

Does the Mustang Ranch have prostitutes for gay men and/or lesbians?

	Mez

	 RE: .28


	 I think it's a matter of being able to build fantasy into
	 sex.  Some people's excitement from sex comes from the
	 intense feelings for the partner, other people's excitement
	 comes from the intense feelings the other person is invoking
	 in them.

	 Personally, during casual sex with someone I tend to build a
	 fantasy around it, to others that is not a viable avenue for
	 excitement. (ie, the fantasy does a lot of the exciting,
	 whereas with others the intimacy with another person does the
	 exciting)


	 Hence the reason some could exjoy a stud and other's
	 couldn't.


	 kath

>Does the Mustang Ranch have prostitutes for gay men and/or lesbians?


	 Good question, Mez!!!!!

	 I dunno......as is, I doubt a lesbian would have any problem,
	 as for gay men, I imagine that would be a viable, if not
	 small market.

	 I would imagine that there wouldn't be separate prostitutes
	 for gays/lesbians, but rather some willingly bi-sexual
	 prostitutes would be available.


	 kath

>    <<< Note 893.32 by VMSSG::NICHOLS "Herb -CSSE support for VMS at ZK" >>>
    
>    give me your money, here is my body, do what you want

	 This isn't true of many prostitutes.....you can't do
	 "anything you want" with many of them.  There are boundaries
	 and physical abuse is one of them (unless they are willing)
	 
>    and a relationship with their society that constantly REAFFIRMS how
>    worthless -and unspeakably shameful- they are!

	 I DON'T like this comment.  They *are not* worthless and
	 unspeakably shameful.

	 Rather, how bout I reword your sentence as such: "...that
	 constantly reaffirms how worthless and unspeakably shameful
	 they THINK THEMSELVES TO BE."


	 Is that what you meant to say?  Or did you really mean that
	 prostitutes are worthless and shameful?

	 kath	    
     

>    For how long is a sane women going to be able to offer her body to men
>    8 times a day, 5 days a week for god knows how many years with any
>    sense of preservation of self?


	 Well, it all depends on your perception of sex and how it
	 effects you.

	 I would liken in to my job as an engineer here.  How long
	 will I last working 40 hours a week for how many years before
	 i crumble?

	 It's it's treated as a job, then that is all it is, a job.
	 My body/mind are "used" by upper management for their means,
	 what's the difference.


	 Just a point I want to make I guess is, that sex is not a
	 very intimate thing with a lot of people.  Either sex effects
	 you inside or it doesn't.  Sometimes it's a "job" sometimes
	 it isn't.  It all just depends on who you.....(neither way is
	 any worse/better than the other, btw)

	 I could/have had sex with a man and not felt a thing
	 inside...neither felt good, nor bad.  It's a job, someone's
	 got to do it.


	 kath

	     

    
    Anyone who has read Xaviera Hollander's books knows that not EVERY
    prostitute hates her job. The woman loved sex, and decided it would be
    fun to get paid for doing something she loved.
    
    When you set the rules, and can call the shots, I'm sure some people
    can enjoy the job. PLUS make some fantastic money. Moreover, if all you
    have is regulars, and you like all of them, the job starts to sound
    more and more appealing!
                                  

re: .38
    
    
>    For how long is a sane women going to be able to offer her body to men
>    8 times a day, 5 days a week for god knows how many years with any
>    sense of preservation of self?


	 >>Well, it all depends on your perception of sex and how it
	 >>effects you.

	 >>I would liken in to my job as an engineer here.  How long
	 >>will I last working 40 hours a week for how many years before
	 >>i crumble?

I'm sure KO would love to know that an engineering job at DEC is being 
equated to a prostitution job at the Mustang Ranch :-)

However, on a serious note, I do find that equating prostitution to an 
engineering job a bit far-fetched.

	 >>My body/mind are "used" by upper management for their means,
	 >>what's the difference.

Are you trying to say that you are being sexually harassed or forced to 
give sexual favors in your job?  If not, how then does upper management 
"use" your body?

I don't think that the issue of prostitution is one that can be dimissed 
with a wave of the hand by saying, "well, it's *just* a job and someone has 
to do it."

Herb is absolutely correct when he referenced the statistic relating the 
number of people who have been sexually abused as children who then become 
prostitutes in their adult lives.  

Several years ago I lived in an apartment building on Comm. Ave. in Boston. 
One of my neighbors was a woman who had very few options in her life and 
was making her way by turning tricks.  She had a daughter who was about 18 
months old at the time.  I used to baby sit for her child.  I can tell you 
that woman who, for whatever reasons, make their living as prostitutes will 
burn out faster than you ever will "toiling" away as an engineer.  

Laura
	     

Herb and Laura...with your statistics and anecdotes about the desperate
pasts of prostitutes...are those *legal* prostitutes?  If they are just
a statistical sample of all prostitutes, then a majority of them are not
Nevada bordello type prostitutes.  Have the majority of *them* been
sexually abused?  Do you have statistics to prove that they use drugs more
than the general population?

This stuff about affirming worthlessness in the mind of prostitutes seems
to me to be a result of the combination of a society that ostracizes
sexual women and the illegality of prostitution.

Even if women who are prostitutes are more likely to have been abused, I
still don't see why it should be illegal.  And even if they do drugs, there
isa *huge* difference between choosing to do drugs to escape the unpleasant
realities of life, and being forcibly hooked on drugs by your pimp to keep
you in line.

What's your point, Herb?

D!

    Just for the record, I believe prostitution should be legal. That
    goes for all sexual choices, not just man/woman. It's been with us
    long enough to have proved it serves some purpose in human society.
    
    Legalization would indeed remove much of the stigma, which I feel is
    attached much more to the woman than to the man. I'd wager that will
    hold true about what society says about women who use male
    prostitutes also. They will be judged differently from men who use
    prostitutes.

    I find that I agree with Kath that sex is indeed different for each
    individual and what is acceptable to me may be unacceptable to
    someone else. I certainly don't expect anyone to live by my
    standards nor do I expect to live by their's. liesl

>             <<< Note 893.40 by SONATA::ERVIN "Roots & Wings..." >>>


>Are you trying to say that you are being sexually harassed or forced to 
>give sexual favors in your job?  If not, how then does upper management 
>"use" your body?


	 Well, the guy over the wall harrasses me all the time, but I
	 doubt it's the same thing.

	 No, in all seriousness, I was making a far-fetched
	 comparison.  Technically my body is "used" in a non-sexual
	 nature (typing in programs, attending meetings, etc).

	 


	 BTW.....I'm not dismissing prostitution with wave of a hand.
	 I think it has it's place, with people that wish to do it.
	 To them, it is just a job (and this is going down the same
	 rathole I went down in the Montreal note and I don't want it
	 to go that way).

	 kath

    Haven't the sex therapists used suggogate partners when there have been
    problems???  Why is this any different.  
    
    After reading some of the *great* replies and thinking of the fortune I
    spend on my hair, makeup, etc, etc, a holiday like this would be
    absolutely wonderful.  (Hugh, could we perhaps stop off here in May???)
    
    and Jim .17  You obviously are now onto chapter two - right??? (^' (^'
    
    All this following my absolutely wonderful lunch with a supplier
    yesterday who decided to bring along his partner - *Is there heaven* -
    yeah - a blind lunch on Wednesday 13th ....(^' (^'
    
    Dear Santa....
    
    ...dale

    Legal, unharrassed, addiction-free, freely-chosen, willing, professional
    prostitution could simply be a job with normal standing in the
    community (along with teacher, programmer, chef, supervisor, etc.) and
    no stigma.  Given that (which I doubt is reality, even in Nevada or
    Holland) it seems to be a viable choice for a job.  
    
    Male prostitution is similarly reasonable under those circumstances.
    Safety concerns of a one-night-stand aside, some women (like some men)
    sadly cannot find a partner due to age or health.  Other women may want
    and enjoy uncomplicated pleasure. 
    
    I don't have problems with gay or lesbian prostitution either, but I
    believe that even in Nevada it's illegal -- currently.
    
    Selling one's sexual favors doesn't seem bad to me.  It can be what one
    *freely chooses to do with one's own body.* What seems wrong and
    degrading is the atmosphere in which prostitution occurs in current 
    society.  
    
    By the way, I do *NOT* think that child prostitution/sex/pornography
    is okay.  I'm talking about freely and knowingly consenting _adults_.

Wow!  I thought.  Time to pump up and pack off -- a career change
at last!  I enthusiastically told friends and neighbors about my
new plans and unbounded excitement over the novel and intriguing
prospects that awaited:  hundreds, perhaps thousands of women
intent on throwing every inhibition out the proverbial window for
an hour of delirious, urgent lust with a perfect stranger.  Oh how
Allah provides for the righteous, I said.  I don't mean to put a
damper on your enthusiasm or cast aspersions on Allah's
providence, said a skeptical friend, but what if X walks in and
wants to X, X, and X, and perhaps even X!  I felt as though my
number had been picked at the lottery and then subsequently
declared a mistake.  That sinking feeling hit like a piano from
a seven story window.  A sobering thought, I said, one that I'd
overlooked.  The thought of X, X, and Xing (and perhaps even Xing)
with X was as uplifting as an extended romp with the Wicked Witch
of the North or Roseanne Barr.  My dreams of glory in the Nevada
desert seemed to dwindle as quickly as ...  well, an only dollar
at a Las Vegas gaming table.  But just as quickly I thought, it's
just like life:  sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.
Be sending a postcard.

    
    re: fantasy defation
    i think the point of some previous remarks is that the reality
    of prostitution in 49 states is that it is *extremely* exploitative
    of the vast majority of the prostitutes who almost always are:
    underage, abused (as children and adults, physically and sexually),
    at great risk for violence and in poor health.
    

RE: .36
    
>    For how long is a sane man going to be able to get an erection 8 or
>    more times a day, 5 days a week? for 40 different women. (and you
>    teenaged readers of Playboy need not apply :-)
 
    I would tend to think that this could be a problem for male
    prostitutes.  They would have to definately enjoy this new job
    or they might not be to successful, if you know what I mean 8^)   
    

>    For how long is a sane man going to be able to get an erection 8 or
>    more times a day, 5 days a week? for 40 different women. (and you
>    teenaged readers of Playboy need not apply :-)
    
     The thought of having to satisfy the needs of forty women in a five
    day span can best be described as daunting, especially when one
    considers that not all women are exactly easy to please. I would think
    it would take any aspect of fun out of sex; after that, how could you
    possibly look forward to recreational sex. I mean, I don't design
    network hardware at home...
    
     I seriously doubt that any man could satisfy that many women per week.
    Aside from the initial attraction of getting paid for getting laid (I'm
    sorry, I couldn't resist) one would think that physiology would
    eventually take over. 
    
    The Doctah

    You guys don't know much about women.
    
    Excuse me...
    
    You guys don't seem to know much about women.

Of course we all know that sex is not equal to intercourse!  (I hope).

john

    
    I think its HILARIOUS that the assumption of handling 40 women per week
    is coming up. Use some imagination! PLEASE. The average woman is not
    going to want only an hour. Just for starters! More importantly, many
    women would be ecstatic at having something else other than the first
    thing that's coming to mind here, i.e. the ole' heat-seeking missile.
    How about something meant to satisfy THEM!!! (Forgive me for not being
    more descriptive!) If the sensation of intercourse is required, one
    could always use a dildo.
    
    Anyone who treated this as a skill and an art would realize that it
    need not be as boring as a 40 hour work week. Hey, if it took no
    talent, then anyone could do the job! Go collect garbage, work an
    assembly line. Leave this job for the professionals. Like the hair
    sculpturer who got $75 for my hair cut two years ago. He got paid that
    kind of money 'cause he's good at what he does. In fact, the mere
    "washing" was done by a "technician"!
    
    Let's look at this as a few steps more intimate than a masseur. Are you
    going to want a qualified or unqualified person doing the job? Its
    TIRING! So, do you make them work non-stop, or do you give them
    breathers? If you want it done right, if you want repeat business, you
    give them breathers. In fact, I'd say you give the kind of benefits so
    that you can attract the best, most skilled workers! If you charge
    $250/hour, $75 can certainly go to the one putting in the labor. So,
    even if you only work 20 hours, you're doing a s***-load better than
    'ren the engineer!!! We're talkin' $78K/year!!! Pay for the health
    care, throw in paid vacations and I bet you'll be flooded with
    applicants.
    
    When Carl Weathers applies for the job, I'm buying my ticket to Nevada!

    Do we all understand the concept of tongue in cheek?

    Ahhh, but put an 18 year old male with those women and they'll change
    their tune PDQ.  Either because he wore them out or because he was so
    inept they'd rather clean the bathroom.
    
    Not that I'm necessarily an expert in this, but there is an approach
    whereby the male could essentially remain erect for hours on end ... a
    book I'm reading (Tao of Love and Sex) talks about men who make love to
    their SO's 7-8 times a day.  And more if time permits.  And lasting to
    the point that woman wants a breather isn't all that difficult (he says
    wistfully).  The tough part is other parts of the body which tend to
    get really tired...

    Perhaps because its Friday afternoon here, perhaps because this note
    had some fantasy, perhaps because we don't get paid till Monday, and if
    you're like me, it only gives you five days to do Christmas
    shopping....
    
    Sent to one of our administrators...
    
    Dear Friend:
    
    This letter was started by a woman like yourself in the hopes of
    bringing relief to other tired and discontented women.  Unlike most chain
    letters, this one does not cost anything.  Just bundle up your husband
    or boyfriend and send him to the woman whose name appears at the top of
    the list.  Then add your name to the bottom of the list and send a copy
    of this card to five of your friends who are equally tired and
    discontented.
    
    When your name comes to the top of the list, you will receive 3,125
    men - and some of them are bound to be better than the one you gave
    up!
    
    At this writing, a friend of mine had already received 184 men.  They
    buried her yesterday, but it took three undertakers 36 hours to get the
    smile off her face.
    
    We're counting on you!!
    
                 *Please take this with tongue in cheek*
    
    Have a great weekend...
    
    ..dale
    

Hmmm.  Guess I'll add my 2 cents here.  You people should read "Good Girls
Bad Girls" editor Laurie Bell, Seal press.  Its about a large seminar were
feminists and sex trade workers get together and talk.  One reoccurring theme
is: Feminists say " How can you let men control you and allow yourselves to 
be degraded like this?  Why don't you get a real job that pays well?"
S.T.W. respond " Men don't control me, I decide what I will and won't do,
how much it will cost, and when it will be over.  And if you can tell me
how I can make 50,000-100,000 dollars a year with only a high school degree,
no job skills, and work only when I want to, where I want to.  Maybe I will 
take that job."  Lets face it, society doesn't offer many opportunities to 
anyone (not just woman) to legally make a lot of money with no education and
no job skills.  So why should anyone deny them their only chance to make 
a lot of money?  Even if they can only do it for a few years?  

BTW, I was in a bar in Vancouver were many prostitutes hung out (making 
250-350 an hour I might add!)  Their was one young woman who kept going up
to Japanese business men and talking to them in fluent Japanese.  I asked
her where she learned Japanese and she said " When I was living in Tokyo
with my parents, my father was an Italian diplomat"  When I asked why she
worked as a prostitute she said "why not its a free country".  It is indeed.


                                                 Paul

 

    re: .59
    
    Thon of a gun!
    
    Thteve

>    heh,heh, I'd bet there are more than a few women who could leave a man
>    begging for mercy at the thought of "just one more time, please".
    
    Most? :-) After it gets painful, well, that's where I draw the line
    (just once more after that. :-) :-)
    
    re: Bonnie/correct muscle
    
    Does this mean that women should seek out the guys who talk all night?
    :-)
    
    The Doctah

    Re: .59
    
    My fingers and toes (and other places) get pretty tired sometimes.
    
    Bruce

  Re: .56 EOS::MACKIN 


>>  ................................................................  a
>>  book I'm reading (Tao of Love and Sex) talks about men who make love to
>>  their SO's 7-8 times a day.  And more if time permits.  And lasting to
>>  the point that woman wants a breather.....


  Wait a minute..., isn't THAT the norm....???    ;-)



 Re: .59 WMOIS::B_REINKE 


>>  very often, to put this delicately, the muscle that needs the
>>  most work out and that most satisfies a woman is on the
>>  opposite end of the body than most men think it is..
    
    
   LA LA LALA LA, LA LA LALA LA.........

   Bonnie, how about that.....  ;-)

    re .59 Does that mean women prefer guys who are mostly
    muscle between the ears ? "Yo, Adrian."

re: .64  (SYSENG::MURDOCK)

.59>>  very often, to put this delicately, the muscle that needs the
.59>>  most work out and that most satisfies a woman is on the
.59>>  opposite end of the body than most men think it is..
    
    >   LA LA LALA LA, LA LA LALA LA.........

    >    Bonnie, how about that.....  ;-)

re: .65  (Dana Charbonneau)

>    re .59 Does that mean women prefer guys who are mostly
>    muscle between the ears ? "Yo, Adrian."

	Dana, I think Danny (.64) understood what Bonnie meant.  That's OK,
	though, I also thought she meant "brains" until I read .64.  

							nancy b.

    Re .59, Bonnie, I couldn't agree more, but I thought most men knew
    this by now! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    About six months ago I met a woman who is now a good friend.  I'll call
    her Susan, although that is not her real name.
    
    Susan and I met at a pagan festival.  We spent a great deal of time
    talking.  Susan is witty, educated, well-read, articulate, and
    intelligent.  She is about 34 years old.  She is a lithe, lovely
    natural blonde, with a soft voice, deep green eyes, and the kind of
    smile that lights up the whole room.  She is deeply religious (earth
    religion - she believes in the Goddess) and very comfortable with
    herself, her views, and the world around her.  She considers her body
    to be the temple of the Goddess.  I was totally charmed by her.  After
    we had gotten through discussing religion, philosophy, and history, I
    asked her what she did for a living.  She said, "I'm a Temple Whore".
    
    I thought she was joking.  She wasn't.  Susan works for an "escort
    service".  She is a call girl.  Her clients are screened carefully by
    the service she works for.  She has the right to refuse anyone she
    doesn't like, and often does.  She has, for the most part, a regular
    clientel.  She has a doctor who gives her regular health checks, and
    practices safe sex.  She works, on the average, two or three nights a
    week, seeing one or two clients each night.  She makes more money
    (considerably more money!) in those two or three nights than I get for
    a week of being a Sr. SWE at DEC.
    
    Susan has been a call girl for ten years.  She is saving money so that
    she can retire when she chooses, but has no wish to retire anytime
    soon.  Susan loves sex.  She considers it to be a sacred act, with deep
    religious significance for her.  She sees accepting pay for this to be
    no different than a priest accepting a fee for performing a wedding. 
    She also loves the freedom of working only when she chooses, doing only
    what she chooses to do, only with those men that she chooses.  She uses
    the rest of her time to study her religion, and to keep books for her
    housemates who run a Pagan bookstore.  
    
    In many ways Susan has more control over the conditions of her job than
    I have over mine.  She would no sooner trade jobs with me than I would
    with her.  She says that her job doesn't make her feel degraded, but
    that mine would!
    
    I don't share Susan's opinions on everthing, but I do see that she has
    more self respect and a greater love of her job than many people I
    know.
    
    I also realize that *most* prostitutes don't share Susan's enthusiasm,
    and certainly do not share her good working conditions.  I realize that
    for *most* women in the sex industry, prostitution is a job taken in
    desperation, and is dangerous and degrading.  On the other hand, I now
    have proof that it isn't always so, and that it doesn't need to be so.
    I see no reason that prostition should be illegal; I see no reason why
    Susan should *ever* need to fear prosecution for a job that she loves,
    does very well, and harms none with. In Susan's case, the *only*
    thing wrong with her job (in her own opinion) is that by virtue of
    archaic and outmoded legistlation, she cannot ply her trade legally.
    
    Rita
    

    This should go in the "I love it when" note but I'm here and this
    topic is what made me realise this.

    I love it that even after days of debate in serious topics we can
    suddenly and completely go off the deep end into silliness and
    giggles. There are times when I love the people in the file for
    the beauty of their hearts and the ability to show their humanity.

    Re: Steve - I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I read your
    "thore" note. ;*))) liesl

    
    Yeah Jody, you're right about that. After something serious, I want to
    switch to the language of love. If he doesn't know French, he's
    clueless! He won't even know if I liked it!
    
    :-)  :-)  :-)

    
.70>	If I can't talk to him afterwards, it's kind of anticlimactic ;)
    
    	I always figure if I'm able *TO* talk to him afterwards, or even 
    	formulate thoughts, then it hasn't been climactic enough!
    
    	Carla
    

    re .73
    
    Ha ha ha... that was a good one... 

    Wonder if they'd have optional plans.  Let's see, there could be the
    Slam-bam-thank-you-mam option: "hi, hello, how are you" jump into the 
                                   sack, etc, leave the money on the bureau
    
    
    			    - or -
    
    The Romance option:  The longing looks, wine, dinner conversation, an
    			 invitation to a more comfortable area, flirting,
    			 etc (as described in earlier notes).
    
    
    Could prove very profitable for them.......
    
    P.
    

    Maybe someday there will be a chain of Mustang Ranches spanning
    the entire country.  Women could give women friends gift certificates
    as Christmas gifts, take brides there for a night out before their
    weddings, etc.  It would be an especially nice night out for older
    women, widows, etc.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Hey, if Chippendales can travel, why not Mustang Ranch franchises!
    Lord, what a concept. I just hope they're all as good as what we've
    been fantasizing. Goodness knows, the Chippendales act seems to be well
    worth the $23!

    re: .57 (Dale. . .chain-husband scheme)
    
    I probably shouldn't enter this reply, but if I had a nickel for
    all the times I've done things I shouldn't have, I could probably
    purchase most of the western hemisphere. . .
    
    Y'know the phrase "an idea who's time has come"?  
    
    WARNING!! THOROUGHLY RANCID PUN ALERT
    
    This is your last chance to turn back. . .
    
    It struck me that perhaps your chain-husband idea just might be an 
    idea who's coming is well-timed. . .
    
    Anonymous

"I learned a lot at the Mustang Ranch," said Tom, indifferently.

>    Slam-bam-thank-you-mam option: "hi, hello, how are you" jump into the 

Shouldn't it, in this case, be "Slam-bam-thank-you-SIR"?  :-)

Also (sorry for the *totally* unrelated comments...) recent notes remind me
of a not-so-recent "Dilbert" cartoon...

Dilbert and his dog Dobgert are looking over Dilbert's terrarium...

Dilbert: "My terrarium experiement is a failure.
 
         "By now it should have started its own self-contained weather
          patterns.

         "After all this waiting it's just so... so..."

Dogbert: "Anti-climatic?"

Groan.

D!

    <--(.23 - .25, et al.)
    
    This seems to accord with the view expressed by the women Liesl spoke
    with.     
    
    From "Legalized Prostitution:  For Whose Benefit?" by Jayme Ryan, Soj,
    July 1989.
    
    "As a 28-year-old woman who survived over twelve years of prostitution
    --many of them spent in the legal brothels of Nevada-- I want to tell
    you what life was like for myself and other women used in prostitution
    in a legal brothel.  I was first introduced to the brothels in Nevada
    by my ex-pimp.  You can't 'work' in a legal brothel there unless you
    have a pimp that the owner knows or a referral from someone who does. 
    These referrals cost you upwards of $200.  When you call the brothel
    they ask you for your 'qualifications': who referred you, your 'work'
    experience, what you look like....  Once they give you the okay they
    tell you how to come and what you're allowed to bring.
        When I arrived in Nevada...the first thing [the madam] asked was
    who my 'man' (pimp) was and whether he had given me instructions on how
    the money was to be handled and a telephone number where he could be
    reached safely.... I was also told that I had to have a medical exam
    ...at my own expense...and [that the other] women would tell me to do
    things wrong so I wouldn't make money and would get me in trouble with
    my 'man'.  Finally came the rules and regulations of the house:  [I've
    ignored the explanatory comments following each of the rules with out
    indicating ellipsis]
    
    1. Every 'girl' is on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
    
    2. You must take eight-hour shifts sitting in the picture window so
    that there are at least two 'girls' in the window 24 hours a day to
    wave to cars that drive by.
    
    3. You must have your hair done, have make-up on, and be dressed at all
    times.
    
    4. You are not allowed to leave the premises unless you are being taken
    to the doctor or have an 'out date' (a customer off the premises)
    
    5. You are always to keep a fresh supply of porn books and magazines
    (at your own expense) in your room and have plenty of nude pictures on
    your walls.
    
    6.  Your room must be immaculate and your bed made at all times.
    
    7.  You are only allowed one two-minute phone call per week, and are
    not allowed to receive calls.
    
    8.  You are not allowed to go out to dinner, to a bar, or to the
    casino.
    
    9.  When 'company' comes, you must quietly line up and wait for the
    barmaid to call you out.
    
    10. Once you are picked you have to sit at the bar with the
    'gentleman'.
    
    11. The only thinkgs you can refuse to do is have anal sex, have sex
    with a Black man, or refuse to have sex with a man who appears to have
    'something wrong' with his penis.
    
    I was allowed half an hour to get ready for work [immediately after
    arriving for the first time at the brothel]"

.81 (Maggie quoting Jayme Ryan)

    by my ex-pimp.  You can't 'work' in a legal brothel there unless you
    have a pimp that the owner knows or a referral from someone who does. 
    These referrals cost you upwards of $200.  

I don't think this is univerally true.  When I was in San francisco last
summer, various sex papers (they sell them on the *streets* there, just
like USA Today...oh, to live in Oz!) they have advertisements for
women to come work at the brothels in Nevada.  While it is possible they
will only accept women who are already working as prostitutes at the
time they apply and already have a pimp, that doesn't seem likely or
the ad wouldn't do much good... (the ad was one geared toward 'clients',
with a "BTW, if you want to work for us, call too", not geared toward
already working prostitutes.)

At any rate, what this article tells *me* is that the first step is
making prostitution legal, butthe battle is only half won, even in
Nevada.  The next step is to make prostitution socially acceptable,
so that there will be some recourse against such awful working conditions.

D!