Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I have been a NOTER for quite some time but I have gotten to the
    point that I don't enjoy it any more.
    
    REASON:  Why is it that no matter what the subject -  SOMEONE (Mostly
    the male population) has to reply with what they think is a Witty
    little comeback.   Eagles_fly...Eagles_soar and so on and so on
    and so on.  Enough is Enough.  And the funny thing is it is almost
    always the same people time and time again.
    
    I would estimate that 3/4's of the replies we could do without. Even in
    the MENS notes conference they do it.  My time is rather limited when
    it comes to reading notes and what I don't appreciate is these
    ridiculous replies or notes that NO ONE really cares about. 

    Either we keep to the subject or stay out of the conference.  I
    am not the only one who thinks this way.  I enjoy humor and a good
    laugh but it is on a rare occassion that a reply is funny - mostly
    boring.
    
    

    I'm so tired.
    
    It's like trying to carry on a conversation during a riot, or at
    the very least, trying to talk to your sister who's very upset about
    something bad that's happened, while the twins are screaming, the 
    two-year-old fell down, the setter's barking, the cats are in the 
    butter and underfoot, the phone rings, the smoke alarm goes off, the 
    tea kettle explodes, the cake falls, the power fails, there's a 
    package delivery at the door, and you hear screaming next door.
    
    Yes, I can do it, but I don't want to.
    
    And this isn't a place for woman-haters.
    Maybe some of us can learn to not reply to sexism or outright anger
    against women, but what about newcomers?  There's no way we can
    warn them--we never even know they're here.  This isn't just a
    notesfile for us, it's for them too.

    Maybe it's because I cut my noting teeth on SOAPBOX, but the situations
    described in .0 don't bother me too much. *I* wish people would just
    stop focusing on rules, restrictions, and format, and discuss what they
    want to discuss. I'm very much used to skipping replies that are (a)
    not relevant to the topic, or (b) not interesting to me (for whatever
    reason). I'm also used to skipping entire discussions (aka strings) if
    they are not to my taste. 

    Even when things do get past my tolerance point, I don't see it as "a
    few abusive men harrassing the women" but rather "a few insensitive
    and/or addicted noters harrassing the conference" (which is a syndrome
    that *all* conferences go through sooner or later). Whether or not the
    "abusive" noters are male is something I seldom consider. 
    
    [Note: I do believe in notes addiction, as it happens, being subject to
    it myself. People who are going through a rough time in their work or
    personal lives may be more apt to contribute heavily to a number of
    conferences, seeking *some* kind of contact. It could also be the "urge
    to explain," to which I am also subject - you know, "people would agree
    with me if only I could explain it clearly enough." That this is not
    always true is a lesson I have taken many years to learn.] 
    
    So, for my part, I will continue to skip notes I don't like and respond
    to those I do. Those of you who really HATE the noise level have my
    sympathy; I understand how annoying it can be when a discussion that
    you want to pursue is being interrupted. Still, when you want to
    include the opinions of others, you have to allow for a certain
    level of disagreement.
    
    You don't have to read every note. You don't have to respond to every
    note, even if it is addressed to you. I can't help thinking that if
    people simply did not reply to notes that they found irrelevant or
    inappropriate, the noise level would eventually drop; or, if not, at
    least the cumulative blood pressure readings of the noters might! 

    -b

         I agree with you Justine. I too have seen this trend lately. 
    
         I was debating the issue of sexism with a couple of male friends a
         while ago, and I made a statement along the lines of "I don't
         think you can understand, because you aren't a woman." This upset
         both of them. They are both very sensitive, and very much
         feminists. They didn't understand how I could think that they
         *couldn't* understand some particular issue. 
    
         Well, I don't like thinking and feeling that way. I know men can
         sympathize with women's issues, I know many men who can empathize
         with the pain and emotions surrounding these issues. But I
         sometimes (not always but frequently) really feel that the barrier
         of sex is insurmountable, that the reality of being female is a
         bottom line and can't be eliminated. 
    
         Sigh. I don't like feeling that way. I don't like feeling that
         there is a division between men and women of biological origin
         that really determines how much understanding of feelings can go
         on. Who I am is *very* much bound up in the fact that I am of the
         female sex. How I feel, think of myself, react, relate all are
         very much bound up in the fact that my essence is alive in a
         female body. Sometimes I don't think the things I feel can
         be understood by someone who is not female.
    
         Unfortunately, there have been many times lately when this
         conference and the behavior of those writing in it, reinforces
         this idea. I don't like that. I would like the idea of equality to
         be more than an intellectual idea, I would like it to be an
         emotional reality. I have frequently thought of not reading this
         file any more. It's simply too depressing. 
    
         Originally I enjoyed participating here. I welcomed the men who
         were participating as comrades in a struggle towards better
         understanding. But lately topics don't seem to remain focused on
         "topics of interest to women". With depressing regularity, the
         focus is shifted to what "people" should think or what "I, as a
         man, think" about the topic. Or even worse, (gender neutral)
         "what *I* think *YOU* should think/feel."
    
         Normally I am a rather patient person, and want to hear from all
         sides, but lately this file inspires nothing in me so much as the
         desire to scream at the top of my lungs "SHUT UP AND LET US/HER
         HAVE OUR/HER SAY!" 
         
         Again, I DON'T like this feeling. That's why I often think
         of going away. I don't know if there is a solution. The only
         one that comes to mind is changing the charter of the conference
         and I think it's too late to do that.
         
         This whole issue makes me sad.
                  
         Tamzen

    I agree, Justine.
    
    I am just about out of energy for this pursuit. (sp?)
    I can usually find some humor in other notes, and write some
    in mine. Lately, this is a struggle.
    
    I don't know what to do. I have no ideas. This was an interesting,
    if not always "fun" place. It is now neither. 
    
    Signed,
    
    Discouraged in Walla-Walla (a.k.a Dawn)
    

    
    Re: .3
    
    I have to agree with you.  If I don't wish to read something, I
    skip over it.  It doesn't do my central nervous system any good
    to argue with those who disinterest me in the first place.
    
    Re: .0
    
    Nothing personal, but can't you see what you are doing?  If there
    are men (people) who wish to begin debates, you are a perfect
    target!  You just played right into their hands because now they
    have you all stirred up while they sit back and enjoy it.  Give
    it up and ignore these people!
    
    Beckie

    Past several.  I have over the past few weeks deleted the Wm file
    from my notebook several times.  I am angry, and frustrated, and
    confused by what is going on here.  This conference has been a mainstay
    in my noting diet.  I've taken some risky chances in this file.
    I've been roasted to a crisp more than once.  I want this file to
    be a voice for women.  I'm not sure how to do that.  I hit next
    unseen so often my fingers get sore...
    
    I'm concerned and sad that =Wm= is a place where we continue to
    have to fight the good fight.  I'm tired of the arguing, screaming,
    and lack of respect I see in this file.  Maybe we should just close
    the file down and start again.  I'm just not sure about what can
    be done.  I want to say that things will get better but I'm not
    sure that they will.  I wish I had a clear answer but I do want
    to try to value all the voices in this file.  So I think I'll just
    be read only for a while.  
    
    MaggieT   

    
   This topic came up in MN and I responded saying that I thought both
   conferences should remain open to both sexes.  Yes, there are going
   to be some *difficult* people (both men and women) but that is going
   to happen no matter where you are. Judging from some people, the 
   conference can be used as a resource.  
    
   Speaking personally, I sometimes think to myself "If I ever understand 
   men...." and by reading something in MN, I may find a new aspect or
   idea that crossed my mind. I am sure that some men may feel that way
   regarding women and use WN for the same purpose.  Sometimes a difference
   in opinion can really help us learn.  If people are going to be nasty,
   then I would say ignore it....we have to do it in other aspects of
   our lives, don't we?  I feel that the larger the audience, the more
   diverse responses an author is going to receive and perhaps consider
   an idea or answer which didn't occur to them previously.
                              
    Is this the case of Women vs Men????  If so, I say that excluding
    men is not the way to handle it.  When I grew up, I learned that men 
    excluded women from opportunities, clubs, ideas,
    recognition.....Aren't we in fact, doing the same?  If we don't want 
    men reading womennotes...then I say why stop there?  We'll have a 
    conference for women only, men only, Blacks only, People with IQ over 
    140 only, Bigots only, Democrats only, Republicans only...and so on.  
                                    
    Can't we lay down our weapons and open our minds?
    
    Kris
    There is so much to learn in this world...why should we limit it?
     
                                                     
                                                                      

    I have no solutions either.  I am a new noter, and was thrilled
    to find WN at first, but I find the same patronizing crap in here
    that I get from the So-called enlightened, men that don't understand
    why I can't put up with an hour of why sheep are better than women.
    I am tired of having to fight for a space in here also, without
    being assaulted for my beliefs and frustrations.  Oh well, back
    to read-only.

    I am also a relatively new WN.  I had a lot of catching up to do,
    and at first it was very interesting, but it has become quite boring.
    
    The best solution I know is to ignore it.  In my experience, those
    who try to stir up a rucus are looking for just that, and if they
    can't then they get bored.  I know this is hard but next time you
    see a note from one of those nit-wits (nit pickers that think they
    are witty), hit next un-seen.  Don't give them the attention that
    they seem to be starving for, just keep on discussing, exchanging,
    and expressing ideas relevant to the topic right around them.
    
    Suzanne

    I think this whole subject is boring.   I only open the Women's
    notes file when I have time (which isn't very offen), but lately
    all there seems to be in here is the subject of whether or not
    to let men response.  I used to enjoy reading the notes and responsing
    when I something to say, but I find myself opening and closing the
    file almost immediately.  Lets close this subject once and for all.
    I say keep it open to everyone.  I used to enjoy most of the men's
    response..  
    
    Pam

	I'd like to continue with Womannotes as an open file.  I'd
	like to see an official policy that allows topics only
	for women.  I'd like to see men respect FWO notes and if
	they really feel that it will really add a lot of value,
	they can start their own topic to respond to a FWO note (but
	no responses sayin that they don't think there should be one).
	I'd like to see people think of their editors as a scarce
	resource.  Only respond if you really think you can add
	value to a topic.  I hate to hit next unseen to skip over
	trivial notes in case I miss an important note in the
	middle.

	I'd like to feel that women can use this conference for
	support from other women (and men) without feeling they
	have to carry the extra burden of teaching men.  It's
	great that men want to participate, and great that they
	want to learn.  I just don't want to always teach and
	put my needs second.

	...Karen

    This is just some sorted and collated data, a slice of womannotes
    recently.  The list below was generated by typing
    		dir/since=23-jan-1988
    at the notesfile at about 3 pm today, then using VMS sort to group
    node::name pairs, then counting the number of entries for each person, 
    and then using sort again to arrange it from least to most frequent
    poster.  I have arbitrarily chopped off the list at 5 entries for
    this period and reversed the order by hand
    
42 YODA::BARANSKI 
23 3D::CHABOT 
19 STUBBI::B_REINKE 
13 PLDVAX::ZARLENGA 
10 HANDY::MALLETT 
10 XCELR8::POLLITZ 
 7 BUFFER::LEEDBERG 
 7 GCANYN::TATISTCHEFF
 7 MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE 
 7 RAINBO::TARBET 
 6 REGENT::BROOMHEAD 
 6 SALEM::AMARTIN 
 6 SUPER::HENDRICKS 
    
Of the top 12 note & reply posters over this admittedly arbitrary period,
    7 are women
    5 are men
    the top poster (male) posts as much as the next 2 (women)
    81 postings have been by men
    72 postings have been by women
    
    I want you to read this and consider just who has the loudest voice
    in this notesfile.

    and among the top women are all four moderators..so I am assuming
    a fair fraction of our entries has been official business...for
    example the notes I moved from one topic to another today.

    Write books on how to:
    
    calculate the air distance from Sante Fe to Mandalay
    
    calculate the time of sunset without an almanac
    
    figure out which direction REALLY faces Mecca
                                     
    The Trigonometric Travelogue
      by Mimi Gerstell
    
    ordered from:   Pico Beach Books
    		    P.O. Box 67
    		    Revere, Mass. 02151
    
    $14.92, pluse $1.00 postage.  Mass residents add 75 cents sales
    tax.
    
    I like to meet women who are pro-active.  Women who take their vision
    to reality are often times denied the monetary positive strokes
    bestowed quite readily and frequently on men.
    
    I like to take my positive engery and support individuals wanting
    to work cooperatively.  When I'm not supporting others, I work my
    dream to become reality.
    
    As a board member for a non-profit organization I've been enlightened
    to the reality that behind a sound organization lies a sound
    philosophy [honesty is the key]
    
    As a worker of a media production unit that aired at a neighborhood theater
    recently I can honestly say what I have known all along -  women are
    supportive of one another and women can and do work well together
    
    As a member of a college staff I know that while teaching others I learn
    as well
    
    As a member of a basketball team, I know that one person doesn't
    make a team, and one team can make a person providing the coach
    has the team's best interest at heart
    
    As a project leader during the remodeling of my home, I know that
    negotiationing the right contract for the right job is very important
    for achieving the right results
                                       
    I know that in the woman's community I receive less monetary rewards
    but more positive strokes then in a woman/man community.  I know
    that when I do the same work in a man's communityi I receive
    little or no reward.
    
    A corporate vision I have is for DEC to sponsor the Women's Senior Tennis
    Classic in 1989.  Currently I am working on how to make that vision
    a reality.
    
    
    
    
    

    It's the quality of the note that makes it worth reading...  and
    some of the men have worth wild things to say...  I still say
    get it open to everyone.  
    
    Pam

I have been extemely discouraged by the general state of affairs in 
Wnotes.  I know that we sometimes have cycles of disturbances, but this 
latest round seems deeper and more prolonged that usual.  Apparently the 
notion of women having even the teeniest bit of space to themselves 
is so enormously threatening that some men they are refusing to allow 
it.  They behave like spoiled children, and trying to even hear oneself 
think while the nursery is rioting is getting to be quite a drain.

I know there is the "next unseen" key, and I use it more often than the
return key these days, but there is still something offensive about
going from topic to topic and seeing the same anti-woman opinions
plastered across everything.  We can't even have a topic like "Are you
pregnant", without getting some male's pithy opinion. I felt a strong
sense of violation when Peggy's first FWO note was invaded by a man.  It
was such a classic example of "she says no, but she really means yes...
every woman wants it and I'm gonna give it to her..."  On top of all
this intense disregard and disrespect for women, we get men on soapboxes
talking about their civil rights!  As if civil rights meant the 
inalienable right of men to dominate everything, from business to yeast 
infections.

I've tried to deal with this by not responding, but there are times when 
I fume inside.  I refuse to give up and go away, because this is 
WOMANnotes, and I have every right to be here, and so does every other 
woman.  Electronic noting could be a powerful tool for positive 
communication and change, and I just refuse to see it completely denied 
to women.  

I think most of the women who would rather have a woman-only 
notes file have not come to this conclusion because they are flaming 
radical separatists (the notion of what's radical in this file is pretty 
mild, compared to the real world), but because of the constant 
frustration of trying to be heard above the voices of a few obsessive 
men.  There doesn't appear to be any other solution sometimes.  The 
controversy doesn't come from the "militant" women, but from the men 
insist on making themselves so obnoxious some of us don't see any other 
choice.

I want women of all kinds to be able to talk together -- "radicals", 
moderates, conservatives.  I don't want a forum where only women of a 
given opinion set will be comfortable.  This would seem to imply an open 
file, but the interference from men is so great in our current situation 
that women-women talk gets constantly interrupted.  I don't know what to 
do...

    What vision have other DEC women envisioned and what action items
    have the women worked on in order to make that dream become real?

    re .16  what do you want to do for women?  what do you want to do
    for men? what do you want to do for yourself?
    
    re. 18 as usual I agree, but stay bouyant...stay afloat of the
    question. Keep in mind the focus...personally, I just phase out
    the off the topic replies and stay tuned to the issue....
    

    I don't think we are discussing whether to let men participate in
    this file.  At this point in time it's a given.
    
    I think we are discussing a certain type of power:  the power to
    set the agenda.  That is a very basic type of power, and one that
    women worked very hard to get both in the 19th century and again
    in the 1970s.  I would like to see women set the agenda here.
    I would like to see men participate thoughtfully, but not come here
    to engage in power struggles, or come here to clamor for equal
    time and attention to their needs.
    
    I think that in Valuing Differences conferences, the target group
    should be able to set the agenda.  Other people should be able to
    participate if they like, but I don't think they should attempt
    to set the agenda at the expense of the target group.
    
    Just as I would not go into the Bible believing Christian conference to
    discuss some of the abusive things that have been done to me by people
    who identified with that group, I don't think men should come to
    womannotes to primarily discharge their angry feelings about pain they
    have experienced from women, as some men seem to do.  
    
    I would not get my needs met in Christian, and I doubt I would change
    the participants' opinions about anything except me and my ability to
    note appropriately. For me, Valuing Differences is recognizing their
    right to have a conference where they support and learn from one
    another and discuss their experiences and lifestyles no matter how
    different those are from mine. 
    
    I think it is appropriate to use some corporate resources to support
    people with similar viewpoints and concerns, and to allow them to
    share experiences and resources without being contradicted or put
    down.  If groups with opposing viewpoints or differing needs would
    both like access to such resources, I totally support that.  But
    no conference can be all things to all people, and I think we would
    homogenize ourselves out of existence if we tried to be everything
    to everybody.
    
    Holly
    ...speaking for myself...
                                

    It's a good idea, womannotes.  I like having both sexes in here.
    Except when there is so much nitpicking and backtalk and garbage
    and more-heat-than-light-schlock that I can't even see the forest
    for the trees (or the discussion for the digressions).  
    
    If it weren't so nerve-wrackingly, heart-rendingly, skull-shuckingly
    gol-derned frustrating to be here, I'd love it to pieces.  I, for
    one, will try not to rise to the bait when a negative person is
    out to bicker.  Perhaps for new noters, if this is a chosen policy,
    an addendum to 1.* could be added to make them aware of it.  
    
    As for couching my words in gentle phrases that are usually frought
    with "some" and "often" and "I think", by now I'm used to it, so
    it is no problem to continue to try to see all sides and write
    accordingly.  But since I will never be the "soapbox" type,
    I certainly don't want to see that tone taken here.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    I have to agree with Justine.
    
    (I did not realize I was in the top 12 (?) noters for this file.)
    
    _peggy
    			(-)
    			 |	The idea of there being a Goddess
    				and the idea of there being a
    				WOMANNOTES are the same.
    				A very strong sense of womanpower.
    

    RE: some of last several
    
    THERE HAS NEVER (yes, I'm shouting. <ahem>) THERE HAS NEVER BEEN
    A MOVEMENT AFOOT, IDEA PROPOSED, OR NOTION MENTIONED THAT MEN SHOULD
    *NOT* BE PART OF WOMANNOTES, OR THAT MEN SHOULDN'T REPLY. IF YOU
    THINK THAT, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION.
    
    The idea WAS/IS that *upon occassion* women have a note to reply
    to other women. Period.
    
    Why *some* individuals heard/saw this as "We never want to hear
    from you again. Go away." is a mystery. This idea is a myth. It
    is patently untrue. And it should be dispelled. Now.
    
    --DE
    

    I guess what I've been responding to in my last few notes of this
    file is what I want...I will never know what women want, nor will
    I never know what men want.  I know the things I do want and I will
    continue chose to do them in this or any other environment.   As
    long as that environment is there for me.  If the environment isn't
    there for me, then I shall move on.  If I can't move one, then I
    shall exist in an oppresive environment relying only on myself for
    survival. 
    
    If people choose to oppress others in this environment and this
    environment chooses to let the oppressors exist in this environment,
    then the question I have to ask if what is the purpose for creating
    an environment allowing all.  Why not have only one NOTES, calling
    it DEC NOTES, without any resemblance to classification.  That way
    Womannotes, Mennotes, Human_Relations, Philosophy etc. will exist
    under one umbrella.  The viewers of this DEC NOTES will be forced
    to read each entry in order to understand the philosophy, purpose,
    and meaning.
    
    VINO::EVANS has shouted it so well...there has never been a movement...
    please pay attention.

re: .21

I agree.

re: .0

I also agree and further more, I too feel that when I comment or 
ask about other women, I don't mean other *people*.  I can admire 
successful men, but I can't say that I RELATE to them in the same 
way.  This is LEGITIMATE and should be RESPECTED as such.  

There is something so terribly ego-centric about having to 
participate in EVERY conversation, regardless of how 
inappropriate, that has me ignoring a great deal of the notes 
posted here and their replies.  Sometimes (often) this kind of 
participation trivializes the discussion.

I for one do not want men to leave the conference, but I would 
like more responsible noting on their part.  Holly said it more 
eloquently, but I feel that although there are topics where male 
and female interests overlap, there are also topics where these 
interests don't even meet.  In these case, a male's opinion is, 
at best, informative, but a female's is real help.

One more little note...can *people* please resist the temptation 
to tell other *people* that "what you really meant was" or 
"surely you meant to say".  I'm a fairly articulate person and I 
usually say what *I* mean.  If you'd like that to be something 
else, please say it for yourself.

Thanks

Roxanne

    I see nothing much has changed in the months I've been gone...
    
    --bonnie
    

    This file is indeed an image of the DECWORLD. It teaches
    me that:
    
    1. women are still not equal or respected
    2. that women do not have power or empowerment
    3. that women still have to work twice as hard to make 67% of what
       men do
    4. that the agenda is set by men
    5. that women do their best to teach men and it is ignored
    6. that women who seek their rights and equality are slammed
       one way or another.
    
    

    PASS THE ERA! AND ENFORCE IT!
    

    Re .29:
    
    I'm sorry that it seems that way to you. It doesn't teach me any
    such thing, about either this conference or about DEC; and while
    I don't deny that injustice and bigotry exist, I can't help thinking
    there are better ways to deal with them than by turning everything
    into "us" and "them."
    
    That's all.
    
    -b (female, last time I checked)

    I agree with .0, and I agree with what .29 has to say.
    
    When I first discovered Womannotes in June 1986, I was really excited
    because I thought that within Digital I would finally be able to
    share ideas, thoughts and concerns with other women who have had
    it with the injustices of society (past and present) in regard to
    sex.  It took me awhile in my life to realize that some of the
    "things" I accepted and took for granted in regard to the differences
    between the way life is for men and women are horribly unjust. 
    But, when I finally realized it I was quietly outraged.  There are
    definitely problems that women face in life that are unique to women.
     Some of them are brought about by nature and some by society. 
    These are what I wanted to discuss and learn more about from other
    women.  I've never had any contact with activist groups and I
    innocently thought to myself, "Wow, this will be more fun than reading
    MS. magazine!"
    
    What I wasn't interested in was in hearing upper middleclass white
    men (with college degrees and high paying jobs) whining about how
    they've really had it tough, too, and, gee, they've never date raped
    anybody or hit their wife so how can you be angry at men!  Middleclass,
    white, male college graduates, taking our feelings personally and
    putting us down for them, with whining about their innocence is
    not what I was looking forward to.
    
    Lorna
    

    Well Lorna, in the long run, would you say it has been more or
    less fun than reading Ms Magazine? :-)  :-)
    
    Bonnie

    Re .33, Bonnie, I would have to say that certain things that have
    happened as a result of my participation in this file have been
    more fun than reading Ms. magazine.  However, as to the actual reading
    of this file, it's been a little bit less fun because it's more
    frustrating.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Wow, I'd like to say that no matter what happens with this file
    (as it tries to become a more woman-oriented space), it has done
    my heart good to read many of the replies here.  It is, of course,
    hard to hear of the pain and frustration that many of us have been
    feeling in this file, but I think I was hoping that this note would
    provide a kind of sanity check... I knew I couldn't be the only
    one who was feeling this way.
    
    There is something that I have been trying to say in this file for
    a long while, but it feels like it's gone unheard.  I think in
    this quieter space I'd like to try one more time.
    
    Many of the members of this conference (men and some women) have
    suggested that animosity toward a few troublemakers has ruined
    it for the rest of the men, that we are somehow blaming all the
    men for the insensitive behavior of a few.  I would like to state 
    as clearly as I can that I really don't feel animosity... not
    even toward the "troublemakers."  Sure, I get angry sometimes,
    but that's not why I've wanted a quieter, safer space for women
    to talk to each other.
    
    I really believe that generally men and women are different, that 
    they see the world differently and describe it differently.  
    Please note that I'm using the word differently, not better
    or worse.   I think the differences between men and women are 
    worthy of investigation and discussion.  But I also think the 
    experiences that women have because they are women are important,
    too.  And finally, I don't think it is always possible to examine 
    both issues at once.  
                                        
    (My plan of action)
    
    Now that the policy of this file has been re-worded to suggest
    a more woman-oriented stance, I am going to assume that it's
    true, and expect the best.
    
    Hopefully,
    
    Justine    

    I AM A NEW NOTER.  I WAS VERY HAPPY TO SEE WOMANNOTES.  HOWEVER
    I FOUND IT WASN'T REALLY WOMANNOTES BUT "US" NOTES.  I DON'T REALLY
    UNDERSTAND WHY MEN NEED THE SPACE IN WOMANNOTES.  I WOULD LIKE A
    SPACE WHERE I COULD VOICE MY VIEWS AND NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT
    "WORDING" AND "PEOPLE ISSUES".

    	RE:  .35
    
    	Agree with you Justine, and also feel extremely hopeful that
    	the conference will be able to see more and more peaceful
    	discussions in a more woman-oriented environment.
    
    	Thanks for your thoughts on this subject (it has been a good
    	sanity check for me, too, to see the responses here.)
    
    							Thank you!

    Hear! Hear, Holly (.21)!
    
    I have felt *unable* to respond to many notes because of the sheer
    volume of what I felt to be anti-women and absolutely preposterous
    notes.   (Comparing a NOW president to Eva Perron?   Or taking fault
    with a statement about women as creators (they are the only ones
    who have babies these days last time *I* checked).  Or giving someone
    a difficult time for religious beliefs?)    I am not suggesting
    any solutions, I'm just using this space to gripe. :-)
    
    It isn't right to do that stuff anywhere...
    Tamar

The following is taken from a mail exchange I have had with
a good friend. She dropped out of womannotes last spring and
I have been talking to her about recent developments. I think
that she could well be talking for a lot of the women who
no longer read and write in the file.


>Woman notes - what a pain in the butt!  :-)  I still say that men 
>should not be allowed....only because you get "you hate men" 
>syndrome when you express your opinions....I think alot of them 
>do it on purpose too!  Which doesn't help anybody - especially 
>women who have been victims.  Alot of men can't relate to that 
>because they haven't been victims...a few have been raped but 
>compared to women it's really outrageous....!  But good luck!  
>I'm enjoying all my other notes...

I wrote back and told her of the changes that the four moderators
have been making and she replied...

>YEAH TEAM!!!!!

>that's good to know....I was so tired of the men and women 
>arguing it wasn't funny.  I thought woman notes was going to be 
>with just women.  We have come so far and it would be great to 
>have other women relate to our experiences and since we are 
>*different* from men - how could they possibly understand our 
>experiences?  Granted some could....but the ones that were so 
>insensitive just turned me off....especially about the DATE RAPE 
>and other victimized women.....I was hoping it would be a place 
>to unload and not get ATTACKED...the same as in ACOA or AA...it 
>was a place to unload and get support not attack.  How come WOMAN 
>NOTES can't be like that????  

>In Sisterhood,

    This so typifies the current reaction we are getting from a few
    of the men in this notes file.  Friday evening I watched the Oprah
    Winfrey show, the topic was women who became pregnant and were
    subsequently left by their spouse/partner/boyfriend/lover without
    any support financially or mentally.  There were about 50 pregnant
    women their who were in this situation.  Every situation was different,
    but the feelings were the same: Lonely, Frustrated, Cheated, Used,
    Afraid, Angry.
    
    One woman was married with two children.  When her husband found out
    she was pregnant he left without a word.  
    
    Several women had relationships that were falling apart and the
    pregnancy was the "straw that broke" the relationship.
    
    One woman had a relationship with a man who told her he was sterile
    because he had one testicle removed.  She became pregnant and he
    was no longer interested in her.
    
    Several women had good relationships, the
    spouse/partner/boyfriend/lover was happy about the pregnancy at
    first, but as the time grew closer they move father away from the
    responsibilities.
    
    These women were expressing their pain and discussing how to deal with,
    get over and avoid the pain.  Many women were angry.  
    
    Well in the middle of this show a man called in ( I will paraphrase
    as best as possible) 
    
    Caller: "Well I got my girlfriend pregnant and I married her. Paid for
    everything, even adopted her three kids from a previous marriage
    because their father wasn't supporting them.  How come you don't bring
    this up?  How come you don't talk about these men? How come you don't
    talk about the women who trap men by getting pregnant?" 
    
    Oprah: "I think the women here prove that there is no trapping of
    a man."
    
    Caller: "Well, I'm a father from a previous marriage and I pay
    child support and can't even see my child.  How come you don't
    talk about this?  This is not fair."
    
    Oprah: "I agree with you caller that is not fair.  These are good
    points.  Thank you for calling."  She then took a commercial break.
    
    On return from the commercial break, the topic they were discussing
    was continued "PREGNANT WOMEN, LEFT BY THE FATHERS OF THEIR CHILDREN",
    not "FATHERS WHO MARRY THE MOTHERS OF THEIR CHILDREN" or "FATHERS
    WHO PAY CHILD SUPPORT BUT CAN'T SEE THEIR CHILDREN".  Oprah was
    right, these were good points - but were topics that perhaps could
    be discussed on another show.                                      
    
    This is the same situation I see in this notesfile.  
    

    Thankyou Suzanne