Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I can't tell you anything about hysterectomies, but it sounds like
    you have a lot of weight on your mind.
   
    First off, you need to know that your doctor is a louse and *not*
    you.  To do this, you need to have a "righteous anger".  Second, what
    *I* would do is the following.  You may not want to do this, but
    *personally* this is what *I* would do.  The second thing is to let
    *him* know that you know the first thing.
    
    I would write a letter to this doctor who hurt you and tell him
    that you felt you were treated rudely, hurt unnecessarily by him,
    and that he should be ashamed to be the kind of doctor he is.  Tell
    him he sadly lacks in "bedside manners".  Tell him you will tell
    everyone you know his name and and tell them to avoid him at all costs.
    Tell him he should take a course in people skills.  Tell him he owes
    you an apology.  Tell him that you are willing to discuss these
    things with him (if you are).  Mail it to him.
    
    At *that* point,  I would feel *100%* better, because now you've
    unloaded your mind at that source of the problem - at this pea-brained,
    neanderthal doctor.
    
    And I would also tell your woman doctor exactly what happened when
    you visited the male doctor.  One hopes she'd stop recommending
    patients to him.  Also, do yourself a favor and see another gyn,
    maybe in your case make it a female gyn.  Ask her opinion about
    hysterectomy.  I've seen a woman doctor at the Women's Health Center
    in Westford and she is fine (she is an internal medicine specialist,
    not a gynecologist).  You might try her if you're in the area.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    	-Ellen

    My daughter has endometriosis and her experience has indicated that
    a hysterectomy will be the only permanent solution.  She is currently
    taking male hormones to shrink the fibroids and the tissue that
    is attached to her various organs.  She will take this medication
    for a year and it is expected that she will be well for approximately
    two years and the cycle will begin again.
    
    I had a hysterectomy about eight years ago and have never been sorry.
    I had positive paps smears for almost three years, a lot of pain
    and discomfort.  The last time I went to the gynecologist I told
    him that the continual reoccurance of symptoms was beginning to
    get me down.  He replied..."Well, you wouldn't want surgery would
    you?"
    
    My attitude may be a little different than others.  I do agree that
    doctor's have in the past wielded the knife unnecessarily but on
    the other hand if surgery is an option the woman needs to know that
    and make a decision based on her situation.
    
    If a woman does not want to have children, has had significant history
    of female problems I would say go for the surgery.  I was very
    comfortable that the diagnosis was correct and I had explored other
    options for a long enough period of time to convince me that this
    was the correct decision for me.

    Incredible.  Is this sort of rude examination commonplace?  I hope
    you will tell your female gyn (so she can avoid referring to this
    clown).  Has anyone tried the complain-to-medical-society routine?
    Probably doesn't do any good.  Forgive me, I'm out of my element
    here, but I'm unusually shocked.  Maybe this deserves a separate
    basenote.

    I agree w/note 469.3 that you should write to te gyn and tell him
    off, however, I don't believe it's a good idea to put in WRITING
    that you will tell everybody he is a louse, and not to consult him.
    That may make you open to a libel suit... Doesn't keep you
    from TELLING everybody, though.
    
    I have a male gyn, and he is very good and attentionate, so they
    cannot all be lumped in the same bag.
    
    I have two friends who have had hysterectomy and, even though I
    don't know the clinical details, they did it for valid medical reasons
    and to alleviate pain, and have not regretted it.
    
    Joana
         

    I agree with Ellen about writing the letter to this doctor.  I also
    wish (although you may not feel this is right) that you would post
    his name in this file so that none of us has to repeat your own
    horrible experience by accidently going to this same doctor.
    
    As for myself, at this point in time, if I ran into a doctor that
    treated me that bad, I would probably lose my temper and start having
    a screaming match with him right in his examining room.  I've been
    treated like a 2nd class citizen too many times in my life and I'm
    just sick of it.  I would get dressed and leave without paying the
    arrogant bastard, too.  He'd wait a good long time (like forever)
    before he got my money.  (But, maybe you'd already reached your
    deductible and so it didn't matter.)
    
    I have been told for years that I have endometriosis, but although
    I do have bad cramps my period only lasts 5 days, and I don't suffer
    any pain during intercourse.  I personally would only have surgery
    if my life depended on it, and I'd have about 4 opinions first I
    think.  That is because the only operation I've ever had was a
    C-section and it was the most horrible experience of my life.  I
    was in almost unbearable, overwhelming pain for 3 days.  (I know!
     Nobody else has this much trouble with C-sections, but *I* did!)
     I figure a hysterictomy would be just as bad.  I worked with a
    woman who took 9 months to recover from one, and when I was in the
    hospital having my C-section there was a woman across the hall moaning
    and begging for relief everyday after having a hysteroctomy.
    
    Lorna
    

    i've been treated "rudely" by both male and female gyns -- yuk.
    it's really important to go with your gut feelings on this -- after
    all, the surgery affects you, NOT the doctor! and you do have lots
    of options. 
    
    i do hope that at the very least, you'll tell your original gyn (whom
    you do feel comfortable with) about your experience. (she has no
    way of knowing what this guy is like if no one tells her -- she
    probably only knows him by reputation.) then ask her for another 
    recommendation (for someone sensitive and kind) or find someone else 
    on your own (a good place to start, if you live near boston, is with
    the previous note on gyns).
    
    good luck and keep us posted.
    liz
    

    I agree the behavior of the doctor was bad.
    
    To your question about positve effects of the surgery I have 
    many. I suffered for years,missed work and gernally had one h##l
    of a time. I wanted no more children and my gyn (male) was
    very good and sympathetic. I had a vaginal in which the ovaries
    are not removed therefore all of your hormones etc keep on ticking.
    I only took pain pills the first day,was out of the hospital in
    three days and could have gone back to work in one week but the
    company I worked for had a rule that you had to stay out six weeks
    after any surgery. Vaginal means no opening up the tummy,less
    traum, less gas since it is a shorter operation.
    
    Atfterwards-no pain,no bleeding ( I could even wear white slacks),
    no 10-15 days out of a month gone because of pain.
    
    I wish I had done it earlier!
    
    By all means check into vaginal.
    

    Re .6, I am just curious as to why it is not acceptable to post
    this doctor's name?  Is it in case someone brought this to the doctor's
    attention and he then sued Digital for defamation of character or
    libel or something?  Or is there some other reason?
    
    Lorna
    

    Perhaps I spoke too strongly in .6, which I have deleted. It is
    indeed the issue of defamation of character or libel that I am
    concerned about. We have been reminded quite a lot of late of
    the need to be sensitive to what we enter in the conference.

    My mom noticed a few summers ago that she just hadn't been feeling
    too well for a while.  She went for a look-see (and no, none of
    her doctors, or my doctors for that matter, have caused pain during
    GYN checkups - other than the average speculum et al), and was told
    she had a little endometriosis - but also she had fibroids and a
    whole bunch of other stuff.  ASAP she went in for a hysterectomy.
     Afterwards, she stayed in the hospital (the other woman in her
    room had also had surgery - they used to ring up the nurses and
    order percoset for two every afternoon...) and the pain was minimal.
     Upon recovery she realized she really had felt awful for a long
    time...not realizing the extent to which this problem was affecting
    her life...she regained energy she hadn't felt for a long time.
     Since she was around 50 or so, they didn't put her on hormones
    (near menopause and all).  But the doctor's report was 3 pages long,
    full of all sorts of details...and none of it was cancerous (fibroids
    seldom are - but it goes without saying that the sooner they get
    taken  care of the better).  
    
    As for the male doctor, and others
    like him, who feel that checking out female plumbing is a routine,
    run-of-the-mill thing....perhaps they should educate them on how
    intimate and uncomfortable being scrutinized like that on a table
    really is.  With male patients, it's often "turn your head and cough"
    while he checks the man's equipment.  My GYN at HCHP is pleasant, warns
    me what she's doing and when I should expect discomfort, has put
    posters on the ceiling to keep my mind occupied, and has put oven-mitts
    on the stirrups so my feet don't get cold....now that's consideration!

    -Jody
    

    My mother had a hysterectomy about a year ago and feels and looks
    great!  For years she had suffered through unexplained painful
    periods.  Come to find out when they went to do the hysterectomy
    she had endemetriosis and they had to do a complete hysterectomy.
    She was real uncomfortable for about a week and a half but stayed
    out of work for around 8. (she works her at DEC too!)  Anyway the
    point I am trying to make is that she suffered for a long time and
    was very scared about the hysterectomy.  I believe if you talked
    to her now she would tell you that it is the best thing she's ever
    done, except having me of course!!! :*)
    
    Just remember that doctors are not here just to save lives, they
    are here to improve the quality of life as well!  For someone who
    is suffering every month with endemetriosis and fibroids and doesn't
    want kids any more....go for it!  
    
                                    - Sue

    
    DEFINITELY find a new doctor.  I have had endometriosis for 11 years
    and have not had or needed a hysterectomy.  Mine was found during
    an annual checkup - a sore spot on the right side during the exam.
    Because I was so young and in good health otherwise I was treated
    with anitbiotics to combat what may have been a minor infection.
    When that and other non-invasive treatment didn't seem to help 
    diagnose the problem I was scheduled for a laparoscopy (a look-see 
    through the navel). During surgery some misplaced tissue was removed 
    and examined and then diagnosed to be endometriosis.  The doctor 
    "cleaned" me up and I woke up.  I was relatively pain-free for about
    a year.
    
    When it started acting up again I was given Danazol (male hormone tablets) 
    but soon found out I was allergic to them. The next step was heavy
    doses of birth control pills to try to trick my body into thinking
    it was pregnant and thus changing my hormone balance which was supposed
    to reduce the pain.  This, too, worked fine for a couple of years
    but then it was time for another "cleanup".  The good thing about
    the laparoscopies is that they're done on an outpatient basis -
    check in in the morning and out that afternoon.  My doctor has tried
    to be an non-invasive as possible - there are alternatives to surgery
    (depending on the severity - mine is at the moderate level) and
    you should make every effort to check them out.  
    
    Conni

    
    I wholeheartedly agree with .14....find an endometriosis specialist...
    there are several in Boston. There are non-invasive techniques which
    they have improved on to try to save a woman's fertility. I think
    once a woman is past childbearing years doctors are more apt to
    recommend hysterectomy but why not allow them to first try the
    non-invasive techniques as well ?  
    
    A laparoscopy can show the doctor the true extent of the condition. 
    There is also a cauterization/fulgurization technique they can perform 
    during the laparoscopy. They are doing amazing things to save younger 
    women for child bearing reasons and I don't know how readily they 
    are applied to older women.
    
    There is also a national endometriosis foundation of some sorts
    that distributes literature and has some warnings against danazol,
    etc. Their address is in some of the womens/health magazines.
    
    The condition is very common, can be very painful and is not clearly
    understood by the medical community.
    
    As far as the way you were treated by this doctor : do not walk
    but RUN to find someone you can communicate with.  There is no 
    excuse for some of his comments.                      
    

    If you consider the surgical angle, see also if clinics or specialists
    you consult can find you a surgeon specializing in myoectomy (surgical
    removal of just the fibroids, not the whole kit-and-caboodle). 
    If you want to retain your organs, but still are having surgery
    recommended, be sure to check this option out.
    
    It can be done, but _must_ be done by a specialist in this type
    of surgery.  
    
    I have a good friend, a woman ob/gyn, who once performed
    a myoectomy at the request of a patient who still wanted children.
    I sat up with her for the next week (we lived in the same apartment
    building at the time) holding her hand while she chewed all her
    nails off waiting for her patient's hemorrhaging to stop.  I asked
    her why hemmorhaging was a problem with myoectomies, when bleeding
    stopped very nicely after a delivery.  She told me that one of the
    effects of the tremendous spasms of the uterus during childbirth
    cuts off excess blood supply to a normally very engorged region
    of the body--that Mama Nature effectively has worked things out
    so that you don't automatically bleed to death after childbirth.
    None of this protective bio-engineering takes place after a myoectomy.
    
    That gave me pause.  I'd always scorned doctors who recommended
    hysterectomies for fibroid treatment, but it appears that there
    has been a real reason (rather than simple cavalier indifference).
    So if myoectomy is the way you decide to go, be sure to get that
    specialist.
    
    Take care,
    
    Marcia
    

    The following response is from the basenote writer.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ==================================================================== 
    
    I have received some very encouraging and helpful mail from noters. In
    particular  one person has become a real 'friend'.  I have decided to
    go ahead with the operation.  The quality of my life is so impoverished
    at the moment, with pain, dragging, heavy bleeding. It has got so I
    daren't go out of the house at times. Holding down my job is as much as
    I can do. 

    I believe that I will feel much healthier and happier when I have gone
    through the operation and rid myself of a piece of equipment I no
    longer have any need for, and which is holding me back from a full and
    active life. 

    My partner has been a great help to me in coming to this decision and
    also all the notes and personal mail I have received have given me new
    hope and confidence.   So I have bought some really expensive and
    pretty nighties and together we will go along in a few weeks and get it
    all sorted out! 

    Many thanks for all the help and time you have given me. 
                                                            

The following response is from the basenote writer...
    
    she is currently unable to access womannotes but either
    maggie or I could forward mail to her.
    
    Bonnie J


		***************************************

I thought it might be interesting for you to know how things turned out in
the end.

On 1st November I went into the clinic.  After Tom left me I was in bed when 
the surgeon came round.  I just got all the old revulsion and began to tremble.
He looked horrible and leary (???)
Anway when he said about taking out my appendix 'for something to do' I got
angry and told him that wasn't funny.  He said they often do this to avoid
surgery later on.  But I thought he was joking!  Anyway I couldn't go through
with him.  

So I told him how he had upset me at my previous examination and that it had
taken me some time to come to terms with his doing the operation.

He said "I am 40 years old and I'm not changing."

I said "I think you should consider changing because you are upsetting me.
And while you may do operations all the time, this is my first time"

He said "Most people find that my manner is quite acceptable"

I said "We are not talking about most people, we are talking about me"

He said it was no problem to get another surgeon.  So it was left like that.
It seemed to be a matter of total indifference whether I was his patient or not.

When he had gone, the nurse said she really admired me for sticking up to him.
She said most women just wouldn't do it.  She said it sometimes happens that
people dont 'hit if off' and that I should not worry about it.  Actually at
that point I was not worried at all, but rather relieved that I had said what
I had really been thinking.

Anyway I was quite upset by this time and phoned Tom and he came
back and marched up to reception and they wouldn't let him in.  So he said
"Some asshole doctor has upset my girlfriend and I wanna see her"  So they let
him in and he stayed quite late.

The new surgeon came round to see me next day (Mr Holt) and he was wonderful,
Very professional and drew diagrams and so on of what he was going to do.  Then 
he explained about the appendix and how it sometimes gets 'wrapped up' in 
things and it is best to remove it at the same time.  And it sounded OK. so I 
signed the form.  I felt so peaceful!  I felt as if a big weight had been 
taken from me.

I had to wait an extra day for the op because of this but it gave me time to
calm down and so on.  After the op.  I can honestly say the pain was DREADFUL.
I just did not believe how bad it would be for two days.  I had a lot of pain
killers.  I had drips and blood bottles and then a catheter after two days
and didn't dare move.  My bowels would not work for seven days and they kept
trying suppositories but they didn't work.  Then the surgeon said he would call
in the Dyno-Rod Man (do you know what they are in the US?)  Anyway the pain of
wind was dreadful, and without the painkillers and pills I would have jumped
out of the window.

The surgeon came to see me twice a day and was extremely professional and
caring.  I had complete confidence in him. The nurses were lovely and the 
little Italian and Polish cleaning ladies were sweet.  I sent these last two 
some flowers when I got home, and the Italian lady rang me later and said she 
cried because nobody every did that before in all the years she worked there. 

I hope this experience might encourage other people to speak out when they
have doubts about something they have to do.  Looking back, I see I was
supressing feelings which I should have faced.  You must go with your gut
reactions so that things FEEL right.  I have every confidence that I will
eventually recover and be back in the world again.  At the moment I am fairly
limited to what I can do and feel very tired and weak, but I am sure I would
have felt a lot worse if I had gone ahead with my original surgeon.

    I am so glad to read what you've written.  It's a great relief to
    hear about women speaking up to authority figures in vulnerable
    situations and getting their needs met.
    
    I'm sorry that the pain was so bad for you -- it sounds like a high
    price to pay for the eventual relief you will get from the original
    symptoms.
    
    You were powerful and courageous in a very challenging situation.
                         
    

    I am the basenote writer, and am now back at work again.
    I had 13 weeks off after the operation and gradually am getting
    back on my feet.  Now the real pain has gone away, I just get
    aches and soreness in the scar area itself and I did have a lot
    of trouble in getting the internal scar healed (this is called
    granulation) but my surgeon was very helpful and careful and eventually
    this seems OK now.
    
    I found in England there is a support group which I have used. I
    found a phone contact who has been a great help and who I called
    twice to discuss things.   After the physical pain dies down, there
    are other problems!  One night I just couldn't bear to know that
    my womb might have been mistreated.  It seemed important to know
    WHAT had been wrong and if the medical staff had appreciated what
    a wonderful organ it was.  My surgeon allayed my fears and told
    me that I had had a fast growing fibroid which would only have
    increased in size and that I could never had had any more children.
    He also said I had NO TRACE of endiometriosis.  He also said that
    he had a great respect for surgery.  I felt much happier to know
    this, because until then I had not realised how important the womb
    was to me as the place where my two wonderful children had grown.
    
    Later I had problems of confidence, going back to work, learning
    to drive again, even learning to go shopping.  I was so unprepared
    for all these things and am still learning. I have to force myself
    sometimes.  I still haven't recovered my figure and am a bit desperate
    about this.
    
    So now it is 17 weeks since the operation, and I am still tired
    and only managing 6 hours a day.  I am still waiting to feel like
    a "New Woman"!.
    
    One thing that surprised me about the support group, was how many
    young women have had the operation.  At a recent meeting there were
    two women under thirty.  One of these had had the operation after
    a cesarian and her husband had been 'forced' to sign a consent form
    while she was unconscious.  You can imagine the reactions and
    readjustments needed for this couple!  He felt so guilty at having
    to make this decision on her behalf.
    
    However, once again, many thanks to all my new friends who have
    helped me and to my wonderful daughter who cared for me during my
    first few weeks and my young son who is so good at making tea.
    Who could possibly want any more children when I have such wonderful 
    ones already?