Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Joseph will be two on Tuesday.  He might not have made it if it
    weren't for the drugs mentioned.  His delivery was delayed five
    days which allowed his lungs to develop.  There were problems earlier
    in the pregnancy that indicated that a miscarriage could occur.
    My daughter changed her lifestyle to increase the chances of carrying
    the baby to term.  
    
    I think we are bordering on trying to produce the perfect generation.
    And I find that frightening.  I don't believe perfection is attainable.
    
    Miscarriage can occur for two reasons, there are problems with the
    fetus and/or the mother might have trouble maintaining a pregnancy.
    If it is the mother and the pregnancy can come to term or fairly
    close as happened in our family the reward can be a beautiful, blond
    and hazel-eyed boy.
    
    I am Pro-choice on abortion.  But I do not like the growing trend
    that suggests the fetus is disposable and the early months of a
    pregnancy are of little consequence.  How I feel about a pregnancy
    and how you feel about it might be two different things.  
    
    On this particular issue I sometimes feel a little defensive (not
    to anyone here).  If I am willing to allow you (generic) your beliefs
    on abortion will you please respect my feelings about -6 month babies!
    
                      Joyce

    Whew! This is thorny. (AH! my favorite notesfile for thorny issues
    :-))
    
    ....but: it's gotta be up to the (future) mother. With consultation
    of her chosen medical/health practitioner. If she chooses to attemp
    birthing a child who has many problems and will not live long *AND*
    she is willing to take on the heartache and expense, well, so be
    it.
    
    This kind of decision CANNOT be left to the patriarchial medical
    establishment or to the state.
    
    

    What is this woman like ? Is she well adjusted, happy, joyful
    about her future role as a parent ? Or wanting badly to have
    a child for less positive reasons ? Either way, it's her choice,
    and she must live with the outcome. I admire her dedication.

 To answer your questions -
    
    1.  Did the mother have a right to go against her doctor's
        advice and use drugs that are dangerous to a fetus?
    
    	
        I don't understand, if the doctor didn't agree with the
        woman's decision to continue the pregnancy, why did s/he
        help her to do so.  She might have been able to find 
        another OB/GYN.
    
    2.  ... Did the mother have a right to interfere with nature
        knowing that her child would be harmed by doing so?
    
        Yes, she had the right.  Good comment by Joyce 420.1 about
        some of the reasons for a miscarriage.  A miscarriage does
        not always mean that somthing is wrong with the fetus.
    
        I went into premature labor at 31 weeks.  I was given 
        several dangerous drugs including Tributelene (to stop
        labor) and Steroids (to help lung maturity).
        I was told that there were risks in taking these drugs
        but I made a choice based on the information I had 
        available at the time.

    	I would like to believe that the woman that you refer to 
        also made a decision based on the information that she
        had available at the time.  After reading 420.0,  I
        felt like I had heard one side of the story only.  I would
        like to hear more details.
    
    
        Linda
    
    
        
            
    

        The woman, in my opinion, had the *right* to do what she did. I
        certainly wouldn't attempt to structure society or the law to
        stop her. On the other hand, she may have been morally wrong to
        exercise that right. With out the details I couldn't make the
        judgement. Even if I did I could be wrong.
        
        This is a hard topic for me to be objective on--we lost our
        unborn baby (would have been our fourth) just a few months back,
        and it still hits me hard. I grieve quite a bit for my lost baby
        who never was and for its lost opportunity at life, on the other
        hand I tend to feel that the system was designed so that babies
        who wouldn't make it miscarried and that that is natural and
        right and for the best. Doesn't stop the tears though. 
        
        Personally, I'm not for heroic measures in the first trimester
        and most ofthe second, and I'm not for heroic measures at the
        end of life either. Life at any cost doesn't make sense to me.
        Life ends. That's the way it is, and sometimes that's the way
        it's supposed to be.
        
        What would I have done to save my baby? Can't say. We didn't
        have the opportunity. Risk my wife? Not if it had been my
        choice. What if it had been a month or two later--at the end of
        the second trimeseter? I'd have been willing to do more. How
        much? I don't know. It depends on the exact context at times you
        fight death and fight it hard at other times, you let it come.
        
        JimB.

    Rights of the mother and rights of the fetus... fine
    
    But what about the right of the child? does nobody care about that?
    is it fair to bring to the world a child that will suffer because
    of illness/deformity, and that (in the case of 420.0) will die young
    after a miserable life.
    
    Even though I agree we don't have all the facts on 420.0, it seems
    to me the mother's attitude was either plain selfish (I want my
    baby, whatever the cost to the child, my husband or myself) or didn't
    think further about why natural miscarriages occur.
    
    Legal right, she had. Moral right ... think about it.
    
    Joana

    re .7 Joana, a woman who a) wants her baby and b) is in the
    process of miscarrying  is not in a mental state conducive to
    rational thought. It's easy to say "don't make decisions when
    you're in a highly emotional state" but many *must* be made 
    under those circumstances. Her decision may not have been the
    objectively 'best' but it was probably the only one she could
    make at the time. 

    Also RE:7
    
    While I have a hard time agreeing that a fetus should be forcibly
    "saved" because of possibly selfish parental reasons, my concern
    in this situation had more to do with the subject of a "deformed"
    "retarded" or "whatever" child.
    
    I've worked with retarded kids, some of whom were also "deformed"
    and/or physically handicapped. They have the right to their lives.
    Some people would be AMAZED at what these kids accomplish. *I've*
    finally come to the place where I belive their life is their life,
    to live and work, learn and grow - jsut as much as the (there's
    that WORD again) "normal" person. It's simply a matter of different
    circumstances. period.
    
    I learned more from those kids than they ever learned from me. We
    all learn something every day - and it's different for everybody,
    no matter whether we're "retarded" "geniuses" or "name-it".
    
    Of course, I happen to believe that the sould enters the body only
    shortly before birth, and if the soul chooses to live a lifetime
    in which they are "handicapped" in some way, then it's to learn
    the lessons associated with that condition. That probably colors
    my feelings on the issue. :-)
    
    Suffice it to say, there are many "abnormal" conditions which kids
    are born with, which we don't necessarily have to pity them for.
    
    Dawn
    

    Well spoken Dawn,
    
    I am the mother of a child born handicapped due to an uterine
    insult, or fetal trauma. Something that happend while his mother
    was carrying him. He was over seven when we adopted him. (His
    first adoptive family were unable to cope with what were preceived
    to be his handicaps as a baby). Stevie is a wonderful loving child
    and I wouldn't have missed being his mother for the world.
    
    Bonnie J

    That's great, Bonnie (for ALL of you, I'm sure!)
    
    <<<<Rathole on this subject>>> 
    
    There's going to be a goodly amount of Special Olympics coverage
    this week, I understand. If you haven't checked in with what's
    going on in this area, tune in.
    
    Ya gotta LOVE it!
    
    Dawn
    
    <<Bottom of rathole. No rats found. Over and out>>
    

    I have lost two much wanted babies due to miscarriages
    in the first trimester.  My belief is that nature takes
    it course during the miracle of producing a baby and if
    by chance that baby is not developing properly it will
    abort naturally.  How could I even consider going against
    the will of nature and stop what was happening.
    
    Unfortunately retardation and handicaps are just a few of
    the complications that could occur if a miscarriage were
    stopped.  Heart, Lung, and body organs could be undeveloped
    warranting days, months, and years of surgery, pain, and 
    anguish for a child.  Is this fair?  Is this what the child 
    chose?
    
    Like mentioned before, if I were to begin to miscarry during 
    the second or third trimester and all tests and ultrasounds
    proved up to that point that the baby had been developing 
    normally I would do anything to stop it.  Most doctors would
    too.
    
    My doctors have told me during each of my miscarriages that a
    miscarriage in the first trimester usually means that there
    was something wrong with the fetus, and a miscarriage in the
    second and third could be either caused by the fetus or the
    mother.  (generaliztions)
    
    I don't think anybody in this world could want a child more than
    my husband and I, we have so much to offer a child.  I just feel
    that a fair chance is part of what they deserve.  
    
    Ending on a happy note, my priest told me that miscarried babies
    are the angels in heaven.  I have never seen anything in the Bible
    that says this but it gives me *warm* fuzzies in my times of sadness.
                                  
                                -Sue H.

    A married couple that I'm friends with is desperately trying to
    have a baby.  They've been trying for so long and a few weeks ago
    she found out she was pregnant.  She stopped social drinking, 
    stopped lifting things, started eating the right foods, everything
    to insure it would be a healthy baby.  Two weeks later she had a
    miscarriage.  
    
    I watch her when she's with another friend's children. She feeds them,
    washes them, dresses them, as if they were her own. I just want to cry
    when I see her doing this, it doesn't seem fair. I religously take my
    pills for fear of pregnancy, I panic if I'm a day late, worried that I
    could be the 1% that gets pregnant while taking the pill.  Here I am,
    able to have a kid I don't want and there she is, trying to have a kid
    she wants so much.  It just doesn't seem fair. 
    

    First the asumption is that a miscarrage is caused by something
    wrong with the fetus. Other things can cause a miscarrage. Stress
    is one of them. Another is a physical problem with the mother. 
    I know of two woman who couldn't carry girls to full term.
    Another who had to have the opening to her uterus stiched closed
    to keep the fetus in place. My own daughter was born a month early
    and nearly died, except for a lot of a lot of medical help. She
    is now a healthy 12 year old. Had we not allowed the doctors the
    right to work to keep her alive she would not be here now. If we had
    known that there was the possibility that she was going to come
    early we would have had the doctors do "something" to prevent
    the early birth. 
    
    As far as nature aborting a "defective child" I know of children
    that have gone full term and born with birth defects. What happend
    to natures wisdom there.
    
    dave
    

    Re: Dave
    
    I think you need to reread my reply because I believe that is
    what you are referring to in yours.
    
    Flame=on
    I said that I would prevent a miscarriage in the second or third
    trimester if I had a normal pregnancy up to that point.  Yes, there
    are exceptions but the point that I was making was that doctors
    feel that miscarriages in the first three months are very normal
    because of the intricate process of building the organs from a
    tiny egg and sperm.  This is what I was referring to as a "natural
    process".  And I also wondering where you were coming from with
    you comment about natures "wisdom".  Are you so near sighted that
    you believe birth defects are only caused during the development
    of a fetus and not by other things such as drugs, alcohol, stress,
    chromosome imbalance, etc etc etc.......  You can go to any doctor
    and he will tell you that 90 something percent of miscarriages are
    improperly developing fetuses.  Believe me Dave, I have been to
    9 doctors in this whole ordeal and I think they know what they are
    talking about.
    
    *Done Flaming*
                  
    					- Sue
    
    Re. 13 I feel most cheated when I see a 14 or 15 year old girl
    walking down the mall, 8 months pregnant and her mom is buying
    her school clothes!

    Re: Sue
                                                    
    
    I reread your reply and have not changed my mind. I am sorry
    that you have had problems, I am sorry for the woman I refered
    to in my reply, one was my sister, the other was a relative of my
    wifes - she lost 2. I saw the pain they went through and was sadened
    , I could only offer comfort.                    
    
    When my daughter was born we had the decision to send her to childrens
    to a special preme unit or keep her locally. She was born on good
    friday, on easter morning the hospital called and told us she wouldn't
    make the day and asked if we wanted to give her last rights. That
    was 12 years ago. Her heart had stopped several times, her lungs
    were not fully matured and she was having kidney problems. 
    
    If there was any chance at all of preventing the miscarrage wouldn't
    you want to try ?
    
    dave
    
    You seem to have taken my reply personally, I was not aiming at
    you. A child is very special and if possible one should do what 
    they can to save life. That is my opinion and I can only relate
    from what I have experienced.
    
    I have a question for you. If you were expecting and found out
    that there was a chance of , no knew there was going to be a
    birth defect, would you have an abortion ? No I'm not off the
    track, if nature aborts a defective fetus, then should you 
    have the right ? 
    
    

    No one has been advocating a complete refusal of medical help, Dave.
    
    One of the frequent effects of miscarriages is depression in the
    mother.  It is a physical and emotional blow.  Realizing that there
    are many factors and discussing them aids in recovering from all
    the unnecessary and unreal guilt of "maybe I did something wrong".
    [No, you didn't.]
    
    Oh, Sue.  This is a hard time for you.  I can offer a small bit :
    think of how many couples are unable to conceive at all.  You are
    clearly able to conceive, so there is good hope.
    
    If two have a lot to offer a child, there are children who need
    homes.  Bonnie got some great kids that way, yes?
    
    Lisa

    re:16  Dave
    
    Having a child at 8 months is not a miscarriage.  Premature birth
    is a whole different subject.  This note file started out as a woman
    having a miscarriage at 3 months.
    
    Now, to answer you scenario about "Would I have an abortion if I
    knew there were birth defects?"
    
    Unfortunately Dave I can answer that question with experience. 
    This is very personal but I want you to understand where I am coming
    from on the "natural" stuff.
    
    When I found out I was pregnant the second time the doctor did a
    few extra blood tests and found problems.  I had an ultrasound done
    and it didn't look good either.  The doctors suggestion was to have
    a D & C done right away.  (this is what you refer to as abortion)
    To answer your question, this is not what I did.  I stayed pregnant
    for another very emotional 4 1/2 weeks taking blood tests every
    other day to monitor growth if any from the fetus.  (the test was
    HCG-Beta Quantitative if anyone was wondering.)  The tests would
    indicate growth but at a very slow and eratic rate, signalling
    trouble with the fetus.  At 1:00 a.m. after work one night I was
    admitted into the hospital for light bleeding.  12 hours later
    a new blood test indicated the fetus had died.  Within the next
    half hour I lost the baby.  
                                
    To finish the story I did not interfere with the pregnancy but
    I would not attempt to save it either knowing what I did.
                    
    I hope this explains what I mean by the natural process.  I am
    sorry I was so emotional in the previous note, as you can see this
    is just a very emotional subject for me.  
     
    Re:17 Lisa 
    
    Thanks!
    
                                             - Sue

    When I went in for an operation, there was a woman in my room who
    said she was getting a D&C.  She called it a 'dusting and cleaning'.
    I was told it was to remove endometriosis.  You sure about the abortion
    thing?  Or are they the same thing?
    

    D&C (dilation & curettement <--(not sure if I've got the spelling
    right on the latter)) is essentially where they open ya up (D)
    and scrape (C) the lining of the womb, thus removing anything
    that might be trying to adhere to it.  Great for what ails
    ya :'}
    
    						=maggie

    
    A D&C (dilation and curretage of the uterus) is the most performed
    surgical procedure in this country.
    
    DFW
    Full of less-than-useful facts

    
    A D&C is performed for many reason and yes they do perform D&C's
    for the purpose of abortion.
    

    from the french ... (I think)
    
    "curetage"                   
    
    
    (Aside : My dentist used this word when he was explaining that he had to
     get the tartar off my teeth.  It must be fancy for "scrape")
    

    D&C's are done for other reasons too, though.

	A D&C is also used for early cancer of the uterus. My mother had
	one done for this reason. They are also done if a mother can not
	get all the afterbirth out as this can cause a very bad, and as far
	as I know uncurable, form of cancer called corio-carcinoma. 

	Small flame - for all of you who feel so self-rightgeous about
	letting kids be born with major defects. Take a trip to the
	local unwanted childrens hospital. During x-ray training we went
	to one of these on a monthly basis. I left crying everytime. 
	These were children that were vegetables that nobody wanted and they
	were dumped on the state. I can't describe to you the horror of
	that place. Until you've seen one of these you have no idea about
	what you're saying. I congradulate people like Bonnie who care for
	and love these children but the sad fact remains that many of them
	end up in these institutions. Get a clue. liesl

    aside here in re .25 My son is only mildly retarded and minimally
    handicapped and is not in any way a burden to parent. He is a gentle
    loveing child who happens to be on a slightly slower time table
    than other kids. I rather doubt that I could handle a severly
    handicapped child, but I don't know what would have happened if
    I had given birth to one. (One of those 'knock on wood' experiences
    - I was exposed to German measles when I was two months pregnant,
    but wasn't worried because I had already had them. However my 'home
    grown' son has no sense of smell, and I wonder if that was caused
    by the German measle virus. If it had been, we had a very close
    call!
    
    Bonnie

    Actually, Bonnie, there might be a way you can tell.  Look at
    your son's fingertips.  Are any of his fingerprints loops rather
    than whorls, arches or tented arches?  If so, are they ulnar
    loops (leaning towards the thumb/inside arm bone) or radial
    loops (leaning towards the little finger/outside arm bone)?  The
    former is normal; the latter seems to be caused only by maternal
    exposure to rubella at around three months.
    
    							Ann B.

        To return the D&C digression to the question at hand, one of the
        reasons they are performed is cleaning up after a misscarriage.
        Miscarriages can be very messy. The design of the system doesn't
        really call for ejecting the fetus and placenta at that stage of
        development, and when it goes it can go piece-meal. If it does,
        the parts that remain can cause quite a lot of difficulty for
        the mother, including excess bleeding.
        
        After we lost our baby a couple of months back, my wife who had
        bled heavily during the miscarriage continued to bleed. They had
        to do a D&C to get the remaining material out so that the uterus
        could close up and start the job of healing. So, yes it can be
        used as a form of abortion, but it may also be used in
        conjunction with a natural miscarriage, so the D&C figures
        should not be taken as implying an equal number of abortions. 
        
        JimB.

    re 13:
    
    your friend may be trying "too hard"  the stress that she is
    experiencing may be causing some problems in conceiving.  it is
    not uncommon for couples who for years tried to have children to
    no avail and instead adopted to then conceive a child of their own.
    
    if your friend wants a child  she might try adoption.  (being adopted
    myself - i was brought home by my parents @ 5 days - i highly
    recommend it, but realize it isn't for everybody.)
                                     
    				--tracey

    forgot to mention that mom had 3 miscarrages before my folks decided
    to adopt (i have an older sister who is also adopted).  she had
    a thyroid condition that effected her ability to carry a child to term.
    
                       
    					--t

    re .27:  (Ann)
    
    Gee, some of my fingerprints are loops leaning toward the outside.
    I don't believe my mother had any exposure to anything, I seem to
    be a normal human being.  Are you sure this always works?
    
    Elizabeth

    I have no idea if this always works.  I just remember it because
    it's the only non-identification use (other than skid-prevention)
    I've ever found for fingerprints.
    							Ann B.