Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Don't trust rumors--I know women who've had their tubes tied before
    they had any kids.  Now, you may have to be persistent with your
    doctor, or maybe even find a new one, but you can do it.
    
    My best wishes for dealing with pressures from relatives and friends.
    I can't tell you what to do about that (since it wasn't anything
    that happened in my family), but do hear that your choice is supported,
    by me, anyway!
    
    Lisa

    The only thing that would be "Selfish" or "bad" would be to have
    a child for the *wrong* reasons. (Like getting people off your back
    about something that is essentially none of their business)
    
    Could you perhaps look at the list of pro's and con's and eliminate
    as factors those types of items? Could you make a list of pro's
    and con's that address *only* your feelings?
    
    The thing with this is, you can't return the kid to Lechmere if
    it turns out not to be what you wanted. And 18 years can be a
    lo-o-o-o-ng time. For both/all of you. *NO*body who is handy with
    the "have a kid, you'll love it" advice will be around AFTERwards.
    You must go with *your* feelings because it will be *your*
    responsibility.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Dawn
    

    RE: Sterilization
    
    I have had friends, both male and *female* who were sterilized in
    their very early 20s. It does take a bit of trouble sometimes to
    find a doctor, depending on where you live. If you are in the Boston
    area, I'd tend to think it would be relatively easy. My first
    inclination would be to call Planned Parenthood in Boston (my favorite
    charity) and get some information. 
    
    I know there is/was an organization centered in NYC which was a
    sterilization advocacy group--i.e., if you wanted the operation thay
    would find a sympathetic doctor. Now, this was in the early 70s
    when it was often very difficult for unmarried or child-free women
    to obtain voluntary sterilization. I don't know if they still exist. 
    
    Please don't let others pressure you into feelign guilty about *your*
    choice. I understand quite well this sort of pressure. No child
    should be born to uncertain or unready parents. Live your own life
    and don't feel guilty. 
    
    Blessed be,
    
    Tamzen

    
    	Seems to me you have rationalized your feelings quite well!
    
    You should be applauded for the attention level you have chosen to give
    this concern. And in concurrance with the previous replys, I must agree
    that it's your life and your own decision *first* - what others
    say and think is not nearly as important and should not sway your
    choice from what is right for you.
    
    	Joe Jas

    pointers to other notes similar to this:
    
    146:  Do You Ever Want Children?
    156:  Do You Like Being Around Children?
    354:  Having Kids Later In Life
    
    maybe less relevant, but:
    
    34: Women's Reproductive Rights
    102: Contraceptives - What Do You Do?
    
    
    -Jody
    

I just want to add my voice to the support you deserve to choose your 
own path.  All of your points about the stresses of child-rearing are 
right on the money.  And for what it's worth, an infamous Ann Landers 
survey about "if you had it to do over again would you have children" 
got about a 70% negative return.  Having children is one of those very
mixed things -- definite moments of satisfaction but at such an enormous
cost that I think a great many people push this "normal" behavior on
others so that don't have to examine their own ambiguous feelings about it. 

As far as sterilization goes, just keep looking for the right doctor.  I 
wanted to do that when I was young (and already had two kids), and got a 
very patronizing and condescending response from my gyn.  I don't go to 
male gyns anymore (call it sexism, but I don't think men belong in 
midwifery), and the question is extremely moot nowadays.  Having seen 
the light, I use Mary Daly's preferred method of birth control --
"mister-ectomy"! (little radical humor, there).

    *Don't* have kids until or unless you are unequivocably ready!
    
    Have you considered therapy?  It's a great way to make peace with
    yourself on this subject.
    
    My daughter, who's about to turn 30 this year, only decided to get
    married to her SO with whom she'd lived for almost 5 years, after
    addressing not only the issue of children, but also of marriage.
    
    Doesn't really matter what *her* issues were, the point is that
    by holding her attitudes and experience up before a *good* 3d party
    "mirror" (therapist), within a matter of a few months, she arrived
    at a state of inner resolution, based on insight.  If this had
    happened at all without a therapist, it might have been years in the
    making; confronting herself with the help of a good professional,
    shortened the entire process.
    
    

    I just thought I'd add my $.02 worth.  I myself have two children
    21 and 16.  If I had to do over again I would.  I love children.
    If I had to do over again I would not have had my children at age
    20.  
    
    It is a tremendous amount of work and unselfishness.  I don't care
    who we are, we all have times when we are selfish.  That's normal.
     
    I admire the fact that you have been able to put everything in it's
    perspective.  I have a friend who is also in her early 30's and
    absolutely hates kids of all ages.  So because of this has decided
    not to have any children.  The right is yours and no one elses.
    No one has the right to make that decision but yourself.
    
    After my husband and I had our two children, my husband decide he
    would get a vasectomy.  I fell in love all over again.  I told him
    go for it.  You wouldn't believe the grief we had to put up with,
    and we already had two kids.  
    
    Everyone has to put in there feedback.  Stick to your guns.  Not
    everyone is the right person to have kids.  That's part of the reason
    why there is so much child abuse.  Good luck in the future and don't
    let anyone pressure you into something you are not ready for.  They
    say 18 is the leagal age that you become an adult.  My daughter
    is still at home and believe it or not still asking for advice.
    So the worry never ends.  It's a liftime committment.
    
    Nancy 
                

	Dear Anon:

	A book that might interest you that I recently read and have
	forgotten the author but not the title is "THE MOTHER KNOT".
	I found it in Annie's Book Stop but your local library might
	just have a copy.....at least they could do a regional search
	for you.  This deals with the realities of should I or shouldn't
	I have a child in a most refreshing manner.  I found it to
	present motherhood in a most realistic manner and not "all 
	sweetness and light".

	I had both my kids by the time I was twenty-three.....I don't
	know if I would have had any kids or when if I had had the choice
	with the first one.....second one was planned....only two months
	off my schedule with that one.  They are now 24 and 22 this year;
	I wish in some ways I could start having them now (with what I
	know now) instead of when I did.....but then.......

	Once you are a mother/parent, you are a mother/parent the rest of
	your life......this is what I kept telling my friends years ago
	when they told me they were pregnant.....I said enjoy your freedom
	now......most did not understand until after their babies were
	born and they were into motherhood.

	justme....jacqui

        The worst thing about some of the arguments that people try to
        use to coerce you into having kids is that there is a very real
        amount of truth in thhem. This doesn't make them legitimate, it
        just makes them better candidates for dirty tricks, and it makes
        it harder to deal with the whole problem.
        
        In particular I'm thinking of the arguments based on biology.
        Each of us know women who in their twenties wanted nothing to do
        with children and then in their thirties suddenly changed their
        minds. Women who thought that they'd be lousy parents have
        turned out to be very good at it and enjoyed. Biology is very
        powerful it can turn your head around completely.
        
        BUT that doesn't mean it will. There's just as big a chance that
        you'll never want kids if you didn't want them when you were 25.
        There are lots of people who were right when they thought they'd
        be poor parents or who were wrong when they thought they were
        going to be good ones.
        
        I think it's important to be realistic about the factors
        involved. You really can't be certain that you will never want
        kids. But you can be fairly confident, and the lack of absolute
        certainty is only a reason to evealuate your options carefully,
        and not a reason to allow yourself to be talked into kids or out
        of sterilization.
        
        I agree with many of the suggestions already made. Figure out
        what you really want. Talk with your husband and make sure that
        the two of you can agree on the right thing. Use professional
        help in both of these if you are confortable with that. It can
        be a psychological profession or a religious leader, but you
        want someone who can help you find the answers to what you want
        and what you and your spouse can live with, and not someone
        with their own agenda.
        
        JimB.

    The very fact that many people question their decision to not have
    children explains the illogical basis of any decision to bear the
    little darlings.
    
    Who in their right mind would choose to spend the time, dollars,
    tears and elbow grease on a child that will grow to be fourteen
    and tell you how dumb you are?
    
    I have been thinking about this note since it was entered.  Normally
    I would write something fiercely in favor of children because I
    truly enjoy them...but I have thought this out and I don't know
    why.
    
    Yesterday they were all at the house with the two grandsons.  Joseph
    got a squirt gun for Easter and he harassed the cat with that...filled
    the gun in the toilet, played with the kitty litter and ate tons
    of candy and very little vegetables.  Justin is 6 and very wise
    and smart and tells us when we make mistakes.  But those are grandkids
    and they go home with their parents and perform their function in
    the cycle of parenting (its a form of punishment that a parent receives
    for prior sins against their parents).  
    
    The adult children were noisy, boisterous, competitive and
    argumentative.
    
    I thought of the alternatives...I could have gone out to eat with
    an intelligent adult of similar interests and discussed the upcoming
    Monet exhibit at the MFA, or we could have discussed politics. 
    We could have sipped wine, attended a play or a concert.
    
    Instead I thoroughly enjoyed the day, the gifts, the hugs, the
    camaraderie and the exhaustion that follows.
    
    I have tried to show how illogical the decision should be.  If you
    decide not to have children, do that but don't expect to hear anyone
    come up with a reason for having them that makes sense and gives
    you a basis to argue your decision.  
    
    I firmly believe that the need to have, and the process of raising 
    children is very much instinctive.  I have seen people change after having
    children.  And it seems that the people who have such deep concerns
    about their ability to parent turn out to do well at the task.
    
    Poor parenting usually occurs when people are not prepared for their
    responsibilites and do not have the emotional or financial resources
    to raise children.
    
    I would never have been happy without children either my own or
    adopted because my instinctive need was so strong.  But if you do
    not feel that need and if your questioning your decision is a result
    of the pressure you are feeling from those around you stick by your
    decision.
    
    I want to end this reply with a feeling that having children is
    good, painful, an experience and worthwhile....but also to tell
    you that whatever you decide will cause you some pain.  What people
    rarely attest to is the emptyness they feel when they have decided
    not to have children and they reach their fifties and sixties. 
    That comment is not made to make you change your mind....it is a
    reality you have to be prepared to deal with.  If I were making
    this decision I would think of all the positive aspects of having,
    raising and enjoying children.  In so doing you would be preparing
    yourself for that time when you might have regrets.  The regrets
    will be easier to take if you deal with them now.
    
    Good luck...

    I think your medical history of having been tired a lot is a very
    important factor to consider.  If you have achieved a delicate balance
    between physical energy/controlling depression/participating in
    a relationship with a spouse/holding a job you like, it's important
    to ask how a child would impact that balance.  If the child upset
    the balance (which sounds like it is fragile at times) and you were
    tired a lot more, depressed a lot more, in trouble in your primary
    relationship, or unable to work, would that work for you?  Do you
    feel resilient enough to keep moving forward if one of those factors
    were affected?
    
    I also think you have the right to seriously consider the issue, make
    the decision, and then take the position "The decision has been made".
    It is draining to have well-meaning people acting as though the
    decision were still up in the air because you have not done what they
    want you to do.  The point must come where the decision is *made* and
    everyone moves forward.
    
    By the way, I feel exactly like you do.  I had a fairly rough time
    as a kid, and living responsibly as an adult and giving enough time
    and attention to my work and the people currently in my life take
    all the energy I have.  I do not have enough to responsibly give
    to a child.  
    
    I do like kids, though, and if I find myself with an abundance of
    energy/money resources I will do as I have done in the past, and share
    them with some of the children already in the world! 
                                                                     
    Holly

    I, too, support your decision.  When I read this note, there were
    so many similarities to my own life, I couldn't believe it!  Thank
    God there are more of us out there--I really thought for years that
    I was somehow very abnormal for not wanting children.  (It's not
    like the world is down to 2 people, ya know..)
    
    Without going into the details of my life, I have many children
    of many ages in my life, and I enjoy them all.  I am also very glad
    when they go home with their parents!  I can be MUCH more loving,
    understanding, and human with them;  knowing that they are not *my*
    responsibility.
    
    I am extremely fortunate to have a mother who understands my outlook,
    and supports it.  I'm sure most of our parents would enjoy
    grandchildren for the same reasons I enjoy the kids in my life--you
    can spoil them and have fun with them, but they are not yours. 
    So I don't have that pressure to deal with, thank God.  I think
    that in-law/parent/friend pressure on you and your spouse is the
    lowest, meanest, rudest, and most uncalled for action on this planet.
    
    
    Previous noters have made some excellent points--one of the best
    (and one that I have had to come to terms with myself) is that not
    everyone is meant to be a parent.  That's hard to believe when you
    see *everyone* with kids, I know.  But I do thank you for putting
    this note in, and having the courage to talk about it.  
    
    Good luck to you and your husband.  Go with your feelings.
    
    Jane
    

    My SO and I don't want children.  Like you, we get some pressure
    from family, but they're mostly accepting.  Our nieces and nephews
    are sometimes fun, sometimes a pain. One of them tempts me
    sometimes, even when she's being a real hell-raiser. But we aren't
    willing to change our lifestyle for children.

    Because we aren't *positive* we'll never want kids, we've never
    gone through with sterilization for either of us.  In another 5-10
    years, though...There's also a high probability that I can't get
    pregnant, anyway...I think you have to want kids more than we do
    to adopt.  It's not a rational decision, it's an emotional one. 

    Good luck, and trust yourself!

    -- Linda

    My fourteen year old daughter (and only child) has said several
    times in the past year, "I don't think I'm ever going to want kids."
     I realize that everytime she says it I hope that sometime, in the
    next 20 yrs.-hopefully after she has a college degree), she'll change
    her mind and have one or two.  This is because I know that when
    I'm older I'd love to have a couple of grandchildren (especially
    girls) to "spoil".  I love little girls under the age of 5.  But,
    then I always remind myself that Melissa's life is not my life,
    and that if Melissa never wants kids then that's just my tough luck,
    that it's more important that my daughter have a happy, rewarding
    life than it is that I have grandchildren.  If it turns out she
    never has kids, I hope I remember that and never badger her about
    it.  
    
    One of my aunts, who is now in her 70's and a widow was telling
    me once that people often ask her if she regretted never having
    had any children.  She told me that she does not regret it, that
    she and her husband had a wonderful life together.  They had enough
    money and free time to do just about whatever they wanted, as far
    as going out, taking trips, buying things.  She said they had a
    happy life and she wouldn't change any of it.  I think this is a
    lifestyle that is underestimated in our society.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Wow!
    
    	It sure is nice to see that other women don't want chilren,
    either!  I was beginning to think I was the only one in the world,
    too!
    
    	Surprisingly, the only person who hasn't hit me with the "oh,
    you'll change your mind" stuff, is my mom!
    
    	She supports me 100% percent.  
    
    	I'm either going to get myself "fixed" for my birthday this
    year, or next.  
    
    	I look forward to it - even the small chance of getting pregnant
    with good birth control scares me.  
    
    	Don't give in to what others want you to do - do what will make
    YOU happy.  
    
    Good Luck
    
    Corinne
    

    Holly.
    
    I don't have time right now to read all the responses, just wanted
    to say one thing very quickly.  I had my tubes tied at age 33, married
    2 years with no children.  And not all that many questions were
    asked.  I did resent the doctors asking my husband to sign to release.
     I'lll read the other replys as soon as I can...

    And on the flip side...
    
    I, too, made the decision years ago neither to have children nor
    to marry (and not in any particular order).  As a result, there
    is a presumption among my brother and sister (older and younger
    respectively with their own families) that I therefore have the
    financial and emotional resources as well as the time to care for
    my elderly parents who in many ways have become like children.
    
    So, in many ways, the decision became moot.

    I feel so angry when I read the base note. That anyone thinks that
    they can tell you how to live your life and that you are obligated to
    listen really sets me off. I guess that's because, naive though it 
    may seem, I think a lot of the problems in this world are because 
    people just won't let other people live their own lives. I know
    for me living my own life is responsibility enough, and sometimes
    more than I can handle, much less running someone elses. (Though
    I guess every once in a while I do catch myself.....) 
    
    Anyway, it sounds like you've spent a lot of time getting to know
    yourself and thinking about this issue. That takes energy and courage,
    and I commend you. It also seems like most of the reasons for not
    having children come from inside you, and most of those for having
    come from outside. 
    
    I really support you in making the decision that's right for YOU.
    And I liked what someone said (I think it was Holly):  you can
    make a decision and, no matter what you decide, the decision is
    made. Period. Even if others don't like your decision, it doesn't 
    matter, because the issue isn't an issue anymore. 
    
    I wish you strength and happiness in whatever you decide. 
    
    Jenny

re; < Note 784.11 by MARCIE::JLAMOTTE "The best is yet to be" >

    >What people
    >rarely attest to is the emptyness they feel when they have decided
    >not to have children and they reach their fifties and sixties. 
    >That comment is not made to make you change your mind....it is a
    >reality you have to be prepared to deal with.

I wonder if it is a "reality" because we have been mentally geared 
(brainwashed?) to feel that our main function in life, once we have retired, is 
to enjoy the grandkids; most people that age do have kids or grandkids, but I 
think that to have kids because you're worried about being lonely when you're 
older is to have kids for the wrong reason.  For one thing, if you alienated 
your children the way my mother alienated me (after all, she was abused, too), 
you wouldn't have them for company (my mom never sees me).  What a pain, taking 
all that time to raise and dominate a child, only to have that child turn on 
you and not give you the company you thought you deserved.

I made a decision.  My decision was to enjoy my life, even if I had to spend 
the rest of that life, living alone.  There are friends.  There is personal 
creativity that, once you have a child, is spent on the child, rather than the 
self (I do not say this from *personal* experience; it is what I have 
observed), and whatever it is you wish to give to the world in the form of art, 
business expertise, et cetera.  It is possible to be happy enough within 
yourself to be alone a good deal of the time.  I have done so.  Incidentally, 
it wasn't until I reached this point, that I began a relationship with a 
wonderful man.  If something happens to that relationship, I know I can be 
happy alone, because I know how to do it.  I don't know if I'm going to want to 
have children, or not.  I am open to the possibility.  I also feel that the 
option of remaining childless is viable and just as rewarding.

Meredith

    My reply to this note (.11) is a little disjointed and I don't believe
    I was clear in what I was trying to convey.
    
    I believe there is an instinctive need to reproduce.  I feel that
    if you make a decision to deny that need for valid, logical and
    good reasons you have to be prepared to deal with the instinctive
    need that will produce an emptyness at various times in your life.
    This usually occurs in the 30's when the biological clock starts
    running down and in the 50's when you are facing your mortality.
    
    I believe that people like the author of the base note would like
    someone to come up with some 'logical' reasons for having children
    and there aren't any that I can think off.  And in giving reasons
    such as company, or I like children proponenents of childlessness
    than say "there is no guarantee" that having children will prevent
    loneliness and or will be likeable.
    
    If you choose not to reproduce which I feel is instinctive I feel
    you need to deal more with your own bodies demands than those of
    mothers and mothers in law.  I think that is where the real conflict
    is and although I respect an individuals right to choose whether
    or not they become parents my warning is they need to deal with
    the instinctive reactions that will occur during various times in
    their life.
    
    

re: 21

I have to disagree with the idea that reproduction is instinctive.  I'm 
homosexual, and never in my life had the slightest urge to reproduce.
I still don't, and although the fact is that I have done so might
be interpreted as proof of your theory, I have my own very different 
analysis of why I ended up having children.  It has more to do with lack 
of self-esteem and surrender of my life at a time when it had no meaning 
-- I was a non-woman, a non-man, my 145 IQ and Ivy League scholarship 
meant nothing to that fact that I could not be loved.  A man came along 
that wanted me, and the idea that I had some value as a woman-commodity 
was so amazing I gave up everything... and ended up walking away 7 years 
later with two kids (birth control failures and lack of guts and money 
for abortion) and sense of self that had come as close to annihilation
as a human being can come and still be breathing.  Although I love my 
children fiercely, more than any other humans on the planet, I still do 
not enjoy the degree of vulnerability I feel through them.  I will never 
understand what the satisfaction of reproducting oneself is supposed to 
be.  I'm afraid I'm pretty insensitive to the agony of infertility for 
the same reason.  I would have considered myself lucky to be that free, 
and would have indulged my nurturing urges by caring for abused and 
homeless women and children.  I'm looking forward to the freedom of 
being older and on my own.  I expect to be quite the wild old crone...

    To me the fact that you state that you love your children, that
    you cared and care for them and have provided for their well-being,
    indicates that you are motivated by instinct.  
    
    I might again, have not stated my theory completely.  It is possible
    to override instinct with intellect.  Also in observing animals
    there are those that refuse to respond to the instinct to reproduce
    and who refuse to care for their offspring.
    
    Also, Catherine, I think the years one tend to feel the urge after
    making a decision to remain childless are in the middle 30's and
    early 50's.  I assume you had your children before you (and you
    don't even look like you have reached your 30's ;-) ) reached that
    time.

    Yes, I also disagree that the urge to reproduce is instinctive,
    and "will out" one way or another. Certainly, there are many folks
    for whom that may be true, or alternatively, many folks who are
    believing on a conscious level that they want to have kids. But
    I don't believe that those of us who *don't* want to be parents
    are going to have to go through <something> because we're "bucking
    our instincts".
    
    I believe this came up in part because someone mentioned having
    a family holiday with "the clan" gathered 'round, and the idea that
    childless folk in thei 50's and 60's will probably be lonely because
    they have no kids/grandkids.
    
    Well, first off: if you have kids to prevent lonliness in your
    declining years, you're hurtin' right off the bat. Ok, maybe if
    you're only a marginal parent, they'll STILL have to have you around,
    but really....is it *that* comforting to know these people feel
    *obligated* to take you in?
    
    Secondly, there are many people who have decided that for their
    own quality of life, they must be very separate from their parents.
    So that didn't help the folks to keep from being lonely.
    
    None of this "lonliness stuff" has the least bit to do with *instinct*.
    It's totally societally based.
    
    Now, the urge for sexual activity is another bag of artichokes!
    Now *there's* an instinct for you! But hey! We've already done a
    marvelous job at "subduing" the Earth. Why, there's enuff of us
    to subdue the *hell* out of the Earth! We can stop now. 
    
    --DE
    

    re. basenote
    
    I support you in your decision completely.
    
    re. last few
    
    I do not believe that all women/men have the instinct to reproduce.
    I do believe that some women/men have a very strong sense of needing
    to reproduce, but for most it is only moderate.  I enjoy my two
    children but I am not sure I would have had them if I had had a
    real choice.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Sometimes reproduction does not mean
    			parenting - it may mean influencing.
    
    

re: 23

While I still believe that reproduction isn't necessarily instinct, 
I'm quite certain that a lot of the mother-child bonding that occurs 
after the event must be.  If there wasn't a powerful biological
mechanism at work, then as soon as a new mother realized she would never
sleep again the baby would be mastodon-food. 

I must confess I can offer no opinion on the effects of childlessness at 
different ages.  I'm 34 now -- my son is 14 and my daughter 12.  I have 
had hardly any life at all without dependents.  It's a little strange 
for me to see so many acquaintances my age having their first child.
This urge seems to be no respecter of sexual orientation -- the lesbian 
baby boom seems just as pronounced as the heterosexual one.  I have to 
confess that one of my reactions to all these babies is gratitude that 
its over for me.  My sexual instincts are still going strong, but I'm 
glad to be liberated from reproduction.  There's very little chance of 
me having an accident with a turkey baster!

    Re: not having kids is "selfish"
    
    Of course.  What's wrong with that?  Everyone is selfish.  Some
    people are better at overcoming it than others, but everyone is
    selfish.  (I don't believe in inherent good/evil, I believe in 
    inherent selfishness.)  If you don't want 'em, don't have 'em.
    
    I'm (currently, anyway) not interested in having and raising kids.
    I don't want to put in the effort of doing it well, and if you're
    not going to do it well, why do it at all?

    Here's another vote in agreement with the overwhelming concensus
    that having children for the wrong reason (e.g. to add the prefix
    "grand" to your parents) is a bad idea. When weighing alternatives,
    one thing to definitely consider is where you expect your life
    (individual and family) to be five, ten, twenty years hence.
    The decision to have or not have children should really be part
    of a coordinated "life plan", to the extent that such is possible.
    
    There's some interesting cross-referencing possible between this
    topic and the one on mid-life crisis, which may for some people
    be easier to deal with if aided by a more extended family.
    
    On the subject of "instinct", I suspect that a lot of the negative
    reaction to this relates to people wanting to somehow distance
    themselves from the animal kingdom, and trying to believe that
    homo sapiens is somehow different. Even among other animals,
    the degree to which individuals exhibit various instincts varies,
    and so I would assume the same to be true with us. Were there
    not an instinct to reproduce, the race would have died out (to
    the considerable betterment of the planet) long ago. There's
    still time, though.
    
    On "selfishness", HAVING kids is also selfish. I get riled when I
    see references to families of eight children (or any number above
    two, actually, though if my parents had felt this way I wouldn't
    have had any sisters), and also when I hear people who say they want
    more children because they "love the experience" of childrearing.
    For any child beyond the second, this is (my view!) both selfish and
    irresponsible in this overpopulated world. People who want a
    third (through nth) child should adopt.

    None of this is to influence the base noter to not have children.
    If I read between the lines of the base note accurately, it sounds
    as though some more detailed conversations with her spouse are
    warranted, since she didn't seem certain what his feelings were.
    (Even if they are on different sides of the issue, they should
    both know where the other stands.)

    (For reference; I'm one of four children and have none; among myself
    and my three siblings ranging in age from 35-40, there are three
    offspring (one each from my three siblings), so we've managed to
    undo my parents' overproduction.) 

	RE: .28

>                                                   Were there  
> not an instinct to reproduce, the race would have died out (to 
> the considerable betterment of the planet) long ago. 

Umm, I disagree with this instinct theory.  People find sex pleasurable,
and children tend to be the result of that.  I bet we'd have a lot
fewer people on this world if we relied on the instinct to have children
where neither party found any pleasure in the begatting thereof.

...Karen

    Animals also aren't faced with the problems of juggling offspring and
    creative jobs.  Their work is food and shelter for the most part, and
    probably allows them to be a bit more attentive to their young than
    many of us could be. 

    re .30
    
    Some animals do - primarily (probably exclusively) those classified
    as homo sapiens.
    
    At the risk of continuing the rathole, RE .29, that sex involves
    pleasurable sensations certainly evolved to encourage its maximum
    use to increase the species. But if a man and a woman were to meet
    with no knowledge of sexual mechanics, would they figure it out? If
    the answer is "no", then perhaps no instinct is involved. Instinct
    gets a bad rap because it violates our ego, which wants to believe
    that our cerebrums control our cerebellums. 

	RE: .-1

	If they "figure it out" it could imply an instinct to have
	sex, not an instinct to have children.

    a converstation on this topic has been started in words::parenting.
    
    Bonnie

    I saw a great cartoon in a San Jose paper last week, and with luck
    I won't blow the retelling...
    
    One woman talking to another:
    
    		"Oh, don't pity me for not having children! 
    		 But if it will make _you_ feel better, go ahead
    		 and have one for me."

    re .34
    
    Amusing, but a bad idea in practice. 

    Not really.  If there were only one baby produced for every woman
    in the population (and zero for every man, of course), the population
    problem would disappear.
    
    						Ann B.