Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    To me, a real man is sensitive (ability to express emotions freely),
    caring, non-judgemental, coureteous, kind, objective, has a great
    deal of common sense, is healthy and works at it, likes himself
    very much and has a good sense of humor (can laugh even when the
    going gets tough).
    
    Cathy (who found all of this in her guy)

A real man is caring, but sometimes insensitive.  He's understanding, but
sometimes gets mad at you when it's not your fault (probably his fault).  He
knows how to get things done around the house, well sometimes.  He knows when to
let me do things my way, well unless I'm not doing it like he would do it.  He
sometimes thinks he's the one in charge and should make decisions on what
happens in our life.  You'd think he'd know by now that I'm the intelligent one
in the relationship.  A real man is honest, intelligent, thoughtful, loving more
often than he is deceitful, stupid, insensitive.  At least he's not perfect, I
could never live with that (hey, somedays I just gotta feel superior :-) ).

Bottom line, when you *really* need him, he's there.  I hope I'm a real woman
for him.

...Karen

>Bottom line, when you *really* need him, he's there.  I hope I'm a real woman
>for him.

    Perhaps I should ask this in a seperate topic, but what's a real
    woman?

    			Alfred
    
    This is a serious question.

    
    RE .3    Alfred
    
             A "real woman" question has merit, But I would 
             think it would be best as a different note, and
             not intertwined with this one.
    
                                   Bob B

    RE: .4 You are right. See topic 529 (and related one in MENNOTES
    # 174).
    
    		Alfred

    Thank you Bob and Alfred I did suggest a separate note on the subject
    for women in mensnotes but my note got lost in all the file mess
    up of late.
    
    Bonnie

    
    	My feeling is that I disagree with the whole "real man" and
    	"real woman" concept.  I think that there is an insidious
    	(manipulative!) hidden message in the idea of "please define
    	what you feel constitutes a real xxxx."  
    
    	Bob Barber (and others), I am not for a single minute suggesting
    	that you ask this question with such intentions.  What I'm trying
    	to say is that our culture has been playing this game with us all 
    	along.  It's another version of the argument by intimidation.
    
    	What it suggests is the idea that "If you don't adhere to **MY**
    	[or society's] definition of manhood, then I shall attempt to
    	strip it away from you by telling you that you are not a real
    	man."  (The same statement can be used about women.)
    
    	I like to think that the women's movement has tried to do away
    	with mandatory sexual roles for *both* sexes and not just for
    	women.
    
    	I think there are valid reasons to ask men not to be "macho"
    	and to be "turned off" by macho.  But I don't subscribe to the
    	idea that we should say, "Macho men are not real men."  
    
    	I also strongly disagree with the whole concept of "wimp" as
    	it has been applied to men.  I think that our culture has black-
    	mailed men with that word (just as children blackmail other
    	children with the word "sissy.")
    
    	Many times I've heard the idea that an attack against a man
    	constitutes an attempt to emasculate him (perhaps it should
    	be de-masculate.)  As if a man only deserves to retain possession
    	of his sexual organs if he can defend himself verbally and
    	physically.  And women who assault men verbally are attacking
    	their manhood.  Think for a minute how absurd those notions
    	are.
    
    	So, in answer to the question, I don't believe that there *IS*
    	a "real" definition for "real man" or "real woman."  I think
    	there are *PREFERENCES* in manifestations of sexual roles
    	(and I think there are valid social and political reasons to
    	protest roles that cause another sex to be discriminated against.)
    	In fact, I blame a lot of the oppression of women on the idea
    	that "real manhood" was intrinsically such a thing to value
    	that women should necessarily be valued less (and therefore,
    	should be paid less for any sort of work they might do.)

    	Men should be any sort of men they choose to be (understanding
    	that if the roles they choose serve to denigrate or oppress
    	women as a group, they will be hearing from us about it.)  :-)

    							Suzanne...

    I don't think in terms of "real men" or "real women".  We're all
    people.  Some of us are men and some are women, and I find some
    of the men attractive, but not because they adhere to any definition
    of a "real man".
    
    Lorna
    

    Someone who is glad to be male and wouldn't have it any other way.
    
    All else (sexual orientation, politics, chauvinism or lack thereof,
    even sexual functionality) should be regarded as a matter of individual
    difference. 
    						=maggie

    
    When my brother Jon was an adolescent, he liked to cook (still does).
    The boys in his class teased him calling him a girl.   My father
    took Jon aside and said, simply, "You are a boy.   Whatever you
    do is what boys do because you're doing it."
    
    Note, my father could have responded, the greatest acclaimed chefs in
    the world are men (which was true at that time).   BUT, I think
    my father's answer covered more ground (as well as stating the
    obvious).   Whatever Jon did would be what a boy would do--Jon would
    be the living proof!
    
    Tamar    

    Perhaps there is no definitive definition.  We each have our own
    points of view.  In my mind, the "real man" encompasses all that
    I could admire in a male.  This is not to say that a "real man"
    must be perfect or have no negative qualities.  Rather, the more
    I can respect and admire a man, the more towards an intangible ideal
    he becomes.  Many of the qualities I look for in a "real man", or
    would see in a "real woman" are similar - these are the qualities
    that make a person special in my
    eyes...warmth...trust...loyalty...generosity...caring...devotion to
    a cause that will make the world a better place...gentleness when
    needed...strength when needed...sensitivity...a certain sense of
    self...a dedication to always growing...and the incurable curiosity
    of a child.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    RE .7  Ya know I'am sorry but I just can't fathom why you feel
           that most every thing written by a man (especially me)
           in this file has this diaballical backdrop of malice
           behind it. Is it just me or have you grown to distrust
           every male in this world ? 
    
           There has been so much written in this file about what is
           WRONG with men, that I thought it would be a reasonable 
           concept to ask a question about what women consider right
           about us. Maybe the question should have been stated as 
           well tell us what we do right, so that we can continue
           to concentrate on doing that vs what we do wrong.
    
           I don't know what your problem is and at this stage, I really 
           don't care. But I would appreciate the common courtesy of not 
           being accused of having IE, "insidious manipulative hidden messages"
           in everything I think, do say or write, especially, When there 
           is little to no evidence to support your accusations. To
           disagree with me is one thing, and believe it or not, that is 
           most times welcome, for we all learn about our differences from
           it.
    
           But to continue to ignore the fact that, I am also a person 
           with feelings and emotions, the same as you is deplorable.
           I am NOT the evil, cold, calculating person that you make me
           to be. Your constant and continued attacks at my character is 
           totally unwarranted, for you have little to NO idea who and 
           what I am. If you have a difference of opinion by all means
           state it, but would you please get off this kick of accusing
           me of being this vicious person out to destroy womanhood.
    
                                           Thank you
    
                                              Bob B

    	RE:  .12
    
    	Stop hallucinating, Bob.  I said that I did ***********NOT******
    	think that you had such intentions.  
    
    	I was talking about our culture.
    
    							Suzanne....
    

    	RE:  .12
    
    	In case you still don't get it, Bob, I was trying to say that
    	I think our culture is unfair to men by threatening that if
    	they don't live up to our culture's *definition* of "real
    	man" then they are something less than a real man (which is,
    	in my book, a terribly unfair thing to say to any man.)
    
    	Same thing applies to women.
    
    	You used this same concept ("real man"), but I don't believe that
    	you had the same intention (to threaten anyone with losing
    	status as a real man.)  I think it's just force_of_habit because
    	our culture uses that term so often ("real man.")
    
    	Next time you respond to me, stick to the damn argument and
    	don't attack *me* and tell *me* what I "always do."  If you
    	don't understand what I'm saying, then ask.
    
    							Suzanne...

    Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to use the word "real" in the
    note titles....
    
    Could we just let these two notes be a place where people can
    write about what they like about men and women? I think that
    such a note would be interesting and instructive. :-)

    	RE:  .16
    
    	Iggles, most of your descriptions of "real men" apply to people
    	of both sexes.  
    
    	If I couldn't be counted on to keep my commitments at work,
    	I wouldn't be here.
    
    	If I didn't stand up and fight for my beliefs, I would strongly
    	disappoint myself.
    
    	Should I let men "re-shape" me into something acceptable because
    	it might make some men feel more comfortable?  
    
    	This is a new world, Igg.  We *all* have the same responsibilities
    	and tough decisions to make in the world (and it takes the same
    	amount of courage and self-confidence to survive.)
    
    	What you describe as the character of a "real man" applies to
    	all of us (and none of us.)  

    	What you describe as a "wimp" is the kind of pressure that our
    	culture (and some men) insist on using to make men conform
    	to an artificial ideal of manhood that simply does not fit into
    	a world where men and women live and work together as peers/
    	colleagues.

    							Suzanne...

    re .17
    it's "wimmin" (plural) or "womyn" (singular)
    ...............................Just a Nit, see many smiley faces.
    
    re. real man
    
    Once I got involved with someone I thought was a "real" man.  Turned
    out to be that it was an illusion: my definition of "real" man was
    bogus, and not all that attractive in person.  He was insecure and
    needy, all the more so because he was afraid to face himself and
    admit that he had needs, admit that in some spots he was terribly
    insecure and scared.  He was not emotionally self-sufficient.  Yes,
    we all need contact with others and depend on them to a certain
    extent, but this was someone who had his emotional life permanently
    on hold -- two-dimensionally he was well developed, but behind the
    persona he displayed to others (and admitted to himself) was pure
    chaos and unhappiness.
    
    I have not got a new definition for the "real" man nowadays.  I
    think that's because the things that attract me to men as friends
    and lovers are pretty much the same in men AND women.  They are
    HUMAN characteristics, I am afraid, and not defined by gender. 
    I figure I'll let YOU all define yourselves and figure out your
    male identity, just as I am figuring out my female identity.
    I am more concerned with things like:
    
    Love yourself
    Love others
    TALK when you are mad, fer cryin' out loud
    TALK when you are unhappy
    Accept the security of knowing that others (me) love you and are
        not going to just retract that love out of the blue
    Try to understand me
    Try to understand yourself
    Don't lie to me, ever, ever
    Accept your feelings, don't deny they exist, try to figure out the
        "why's" behind you happinesses and upsets
    Assume that someone who loves you is NOT going to try to hurt you
    If they do, tell them they hurt you
    If they did it on purpose, find out why
    
    
    But you see, these things -- the yardstick with which I measure
    the value of my relationships -- are not gender-related.
    
    Lee

    	RE:  .19
    
    	That was beautiful, and I would easily accept those things
    	as definition of the ideal man *or* woman.
    
    							Suzanne...
    

    re .19 Lee that was beautifully spoken, like Gale and Suzanne
    I also thankyou

It appears to me that heterosexuals in general seem to have a terrible 
problem disassociating gender roles from actual gender identity.  
There's a lot of socialization (especially religious) that tries to 
enforce the idea that a certain role is synonymous with one's 
physiological gender.

I think this makes for a limiting, restricted, ("straight", as it were), 
experience of sexuality.  It's too bad that so many men and women need to 
go around feeling afraid of not being "real" men and women because they 
may not have the appropriate role totally built in to all aspects of 
their character.

In the gay community the connection between gender identity and gender 
role is much looser, and can take on a much more playful aspect.  One
can be butch, femme, top, bottom, as the mood strikes.  Although many
people tend to have preferences, these things aren't rigid.  A gender
role is more like clothing one can put on, rather than an intrinsic
component like an arm or a leg.  Some things will fit and be more
comfortable for one person than another, but there's nothing that says
that because you've got this chromosomal arrangement or other, you
should always change the tire or serve the tea. 

The idea that a "real man" ("butch", in the gay sub-culture) has a 
natural complement in a "real woman" ("femme") is a lot of nonsense.
It's a heterosexist assumption that somehow opposites are necessarily 
profoundly attracted to each other.  I would suggest that the number of 
women who end up being very unhappy with their manly men who can't talk 
about anything would contradict that.  

This could be a fun note if we were just discussing what makes for
butch and femme characteristics in a light-hearted way (e.g.
Etiquette question: Which side of the bed does the butch sleep on?
Answer: Anywhere s/he wants.)  There's nothing wrong with being a little 
silly about our stereotypes.

It could be a serious note, if we discussed the effect that butch/femme 
role-playing and internalization has affected our lives.  In either 
case, I think it's important to keep the whole idea of role separate 
from identity.  Endless amounts of pain have been caused to less-than-
cookie-cutter people by failing to do that.

    I, like .19, thought I had met a real man once.  He knew karate,
    knew how to shoot, lifted weights, was into military stuff, hated 
    commies, hated gays, wanted to dominate the relationship, wanted
    to dominate me.  I know, what every womannoter doesn't want in a
    man :-).  But what I learned was that most of his toughness was
    an act and that deep down inside he was scared and dependent and
    whining and snivelling...  Didn't take long for me to realize that
    he was NOT what I wanted and not a real man at all and that maybe,
    just maybe, all a real man is, is an honest man.

    Sharon
        

    
    You and Diogenes are still looking.
    
    DFW

    re .23
    
    yes, it struck me as heterosexist too: the assumption that in defining
    the "real man" (or IDEAL "real man") we are defining the ideal mate is
    not necessarily the case.
    
    Playing with roles is fun, whether it's two people of the same sex
    or two people of the opposite sex.  
    
    Lee

    re .26:
    
    (This comment belongs in JOY OF LEX)
    
    "two people of the opposite sex" would be two people who are both
    the opposite sex of the reader (or speaker) and thus are the same
    sex. 
    
    "Two people of opposite sex" is the correct statement. 
    
    I'm sorry to be so pedantic, and please, I'm really not being very
    serious. I just had a momentary picture, when I read your statement,
    first of two men (two people of the same sex) and then of two women
    (two people of the opposite sex).  
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /

RE: .12

Hey Bob...  I think it's time to lighten up a little...

reality, a pretty silly concept once you think about it a bit.

Jim.

    I have a good friend whose husband fits the "macho" stereotype pretty
    well, but he also has a big heart, which makes me able to tolerate
    his company.
    
    The one difference I've noticed between him and my other friends'
    husbands is that the wife of the macho type spends a lot more time
    "managing" him.  She makes sure that things are phrased in
    non-threatening ways for him, she makes sure that things she really
    wants to do with him come out seeming like *his* ideas, and she
    appreciates him regularly for things he wants to believe about himself.
    
    When she's feeling on top of things and doing a good management
    job, their relationship is great and seems to work for both of them.
    When she's a little down, things tend to fall apart because she's
    not doing all the management things.
                                        
    Interesting.  It wouldn't work for me, but they seem to be pretty
    happy most of the time.
    
    Holly

    
     RE .28

              Aaaaahhhhhh message received...

    
                  Roger, wilco ..... 
    
                                  BB

    a real man is someone who squeals his tires on the way out of the
    liquor store parking lot.  sigh.
    
    still waiting
    liz

    The notion of "real men" or "real women" has already been beat to
    death in previous replies, so i won't even address it.  I will however,
    take up the challenge to say what i like about men.
    
    re. 12  
    > There has been so much written in this file about what is WRONG
    > with men, that I thought it would be a reasonable concept to ask
    > a question about what women consider right about us.....
    
    re. 15
    > Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to use the word "real" in the
    > note titles...
    > Could we just let these two notes be a place where people can
    > write about what they like about men and women? I think that such
    > a note would be interesting and instructive. :-)
    
    The list below is not in any particular order of importance, just
    a few random thoughts.  What i like about men:
    
    ...their feet are always warm in bed
    ...they carry in grocery bags, 4 at a time
    ...the way they look in a pin-stripe suit
    ...their beards are soft and cuddly
    ...the way they dance funny, most of them anyway
    ...they make me look inside myself and respond
    ...they play cards and whine if you don't let them win
    ...they say they can't do laundry, but they know how to fix the
       washing machine
    ...they open gifts & pretend it's no big deal, but it is
    ...the way they look in a gray sweater and tight jeans
    ...they know how to fix electrical outlets
    ...they hog the bedcovers and say they don't
    ...they smile, they laugh at themselves, and they make me laugh
       at me
    ...their hands feel strong, as they take yours crossing the street
    ...they tell you how to do everything, even if they can't do it
    ...they make you laugh, even if you are mad at them
    ...they are different from me and yet, the same
    ...they think and feel, laugh and cry, give of themselves and 
       take for themselves, just like me
    
    I like men, tall men, short men, fat men, skinny men, blondes,
    brunettes, and redheads, smart men, dumb men, arrogant men and humble
    men, strong men, weak men, exciting men and boring men, from
    construction workers to engineers...
    
    All the men that have been in my life, father, brothers, uncles,
    husbands, sons, lovers, and friends, each and everyone of them has
    contributed to who I am, as a woman, as a real person.  Some of
    them have had a positive impact, some a negative impact.  I've loved
    many men and at times, I've hated a couple... but, I can't imagine
    who or what i might be without them.
    
    Sandie

    re -1 That was a wonderful, well thought-out list.
    
    You made my day and made me smile.
    
    Cathy :-)

    re.31
    Did that guy's truck have a shotgun rack avec gun? Sounds like the
    "men" I grew up around. What you so nicely summarized was a joke
    my friends and I had back in my hometown.(we called them "rednecks")
    There are a lot of guys still clinging to that image, actually,
    a lot of my friends in HS and still try and be "macho" like that.
    To me, I gotta laugh. It's the way we are programmed to act. Isn't
    that what men do?
    Hang in there Liz, we don't all squeal our tires, and some of us
    very rarely go to the liquor store.   
    
    Jeff
    PS. Stop snickering about the "sensitive man" stuff Stan, or I'll.....

    
    
    	Maybe real people are those who do not change others but accept
    them for what they are. That's how I feel. Certain ways of my SO
    could be different in my eyes but it's just the way she is and if
    I tried to make her different, she wouldn't see me as the real me,
    anymore!

    
    Unless something happened since I got dressed this morning, I'm
    a real man!
    
    Cal.
    

        What I said in 529.43 applies here (appropriately adjusted) :

        *All* men are *real* men.

    Re .37 & 529.43
    
    Except those that are imaginary...
    
    Elizabeth

    What I like about a man can be the same things that sometimes infuriate
    me.  My husband can be very stereotypical at times, but he's really
    a humanist (as opposed to feminist) at heart.  He has slightly more
    tolerance for stupid women than for stupid men, but not much.
    
    He makes me think.  Yes, he knows how to fix electrical outlets; but
    he won't just do it -- he'll show me, and try to teach me.  I'm a
    pretty lazy person, but he doesn't let me get away with that, in my
    reasoning or my actions.
    
    We all have our strengths and weaknesses.  A man who helps me grow, and
    lets me help him, means more to me than being a "hunk."  Some women 
    like tall, some like short, but I think we all want someone who helps us
    be happy with ourselves.  Sometimes that means kicking in the pants, but
    always with the understanding that it's out of a desire to see you
    living up to your own ideals.
    
    ************************************************************************
    
    On the topic of "Real Men":  My husband used to work for a construction
    firm, building post & beam houses.  He once had some leftover quiche
    along for lunch.  One of his coworkers saw it, and asked him what it
    was, expecting "cheese pie," or some other evasive answer.  Instead, he
    said "Quiche.  Wanna make something of it?"
    
    Beverly