| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 254.1 | The Dropped Badge | VIKING::TARBET | Margaret Mairhi | Fri Mar 27 1987 11:41 | 392 |
|
Since Sunshine's response served as the trigger for the tangent
that followed, I include it here for reference.
=maggie
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Note 77.90 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 90 of 112
SSVAX::LAVOIE 16 lines 26-MAR-1987 08:49
-< <Can I enter a non-sexist thing?> >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This morning I was on my into the MIll (Upper Thompson Lobby) and
I dropped my badge in a puddle (Sounds like a Monday!). I stopped
and turned around to pick it up and three "men" walked by ignoring
me and a fourth gentleman stopped to reach into the puddle to retrieve
it. After the three had gone I didn't think anyone would have helped
but he was wonderful and I thanked him profusely for this. He also
held both doors open for me on my way in.
It is nice to know that some sexism (the good kind) is still alive
in this place.....
Sunshine
P.S. Maybe they didn't like my suit!
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Note 77.91 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 91 of 112
USFSHQ::SMANDELL 12 lines 26-MAR-1987 09:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: -1
There is a difference between sexism and courtesy. The difference
is the *intent* with which the act is done.
(Rhetorical questions:) Did the man pick up the badge because it
was difficult for you to get, and easier for him (for whatever reason)?
Or did he pick it up because you were a woman, he a man, and that's
what men are *supposed* to do, because women are less capable?
Sheila
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Note 77.92 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 92 of 112
JACUZI::DAUGHAN "fight individualism" 6 lines 26-MAR-1987 09:28
-< yecchhh! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re.90
i dont mind opening doors for myself,even if i am with a gentleman.
i even hold doors open for men.
i do not want or need a man to throw his cloak over a puddle for
me.
kelly
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Note 77.93 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 93 of 112
SSVAX::LAVOIE 11 lines 26-MAR-1987 09:29
-< <Niceness doesn't have to have a subliminal reason >-
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re -.01
No he picked it up out of sheer courtesy. I could have picked it
up just as easily but he was kind enough to help and I did appreciate.
Even if he did it with the intentions of "the poor helpless woman"
in mind I didn't know it.
He just made my day.....
Sunshine
NEXT!
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Note 77.94 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 94 of 112
ARMORY::CHARBONND 5 lines 26-MAR-1987 11:17
-< more discouragement ! >-
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RE90, 91 I don't know what's worse - the fact that only
one in four is a gentleman, or that his actions are
immediately subjected to suspicion.
(there may be a cause_and_effect here somewhere)
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Note 77.95 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 95 of 112
GNUVAX::TUCKER "Peace of mind..." 1 line 26-MAR-1987 11:20
-< What's wrong with YOUR Hands? >-
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I think the worst thing was having expectations of the three "men."
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Note 77.96 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 96 of 112
STUBBI::B_REINKE "the fire and the rose are one" 3 lines 26-MAR-1987 11:26
-< What's wrong with helping/being helped? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the matter with having expectations of courtesy from
other "people"? I pick things up for other people all the time.
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Note 77.97 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 97 of 112
LEZAH::TUCKER "Peace of mind..." 27 lines 26-MAR-1987 12:20
-< Be Thankful >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re .96:
I, too, pick up things for people and even frequently open doors
for men and hold open doors for them when they aren't far behind.
In fact, I'm one of the most helpful people I know. But, I was
really struck by the EXPECTATION. She didn't give any indication
that she was incapacitated in the least. Was she *waiting* for
someone to come along and pick it up? If I had dropped my badge
on my usual hurried way into the building, I would have been so
engrossed in picking it up that I wouldn't have even *noticed* that
people were walking by too selfish to put their hand in a puddle
to get it out for me. I could see if maybe she had dropped a box of
punched cards.
Hey, *I* wouldn't have wanted to get it out *myself*... Why expect
someone else to want to? Are men supposed to do the dirty work?
Why not be positive and simply effuse about the gentleman who did
offer the courtesy?
When I read the note, all the feelings I associate with people who
complain about not getting enough for Christmas, getting "cheap"
presents, etc. bubbled up.
I guess I just look at little courtesies like this as small gifts
and pleasant surprises and am simply happy when they, like compliments,
come along.
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Note 77.98 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 98 of 112
JETSAM::REZUCHA 9 lines 26-MAR-1987 13:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: 77.90
I do not understand the implied negative criticism of the *"men"* in
your note. Could you elaborate on what you expected/felt/thought?
It was good to hear that when a nice person did help that it was
appreciated.
-Tom
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Note 77.99 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 99 of 112
SSVAX::LAVOIE 42 lines 26-MAR-1987 13:55
-< < Fire at Will!> >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OKAY!
Let me explain this in minute detail....I had attached my badge
to my suit thinking it would stay there when it fell I had advanced
several step before I heard it hit the ground. I turned (didn't
have to look I *knew* what happened) as I turned the three men
in the suits walked by it as if nothing happened. I proceeded to
walk back several steps and an older gentleman had proceeded to
stop and pick it up.
YES I could have picked it up and probably would have if I had realized
it sooner.
YES I do appreciate the fact that this gentleman did something.
NO It wasn't a sexist comment.
What I expected was absolutely nothing. What I felt was thankfulness.
What I thought was how it was of this one man to stop and actually
help out a fellow human regardless of sex. I have picked up things
people have dropped regardless of sex but just to be helpful.
I knew a woman in her mid-forties who's whole attitude on life was
"DON'T GET INVOLVED!"
In this instance someone perceived the situation and got involved.
This is unbelieveable how everyone has perceived this as a chance
to jump all over a "feminist' (maybe not the right word) comment.
What I was saying:
It was nice for someone (regardless of sex) to do something
without being asked/told/begged/pleaded. No matter who *you* are.
Those of you with teenagers must be able to appreciate this thought
immensely!
I will be very careful how I phrase myself from now on.
Sunshine
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Note 77.101 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 101 of 112
SSVAX::LAVOIE 7 lines 26-MAR-1987 14:21
-< has a cease fire occurred? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do I detect a cease fire?????
Please?
Sunshine
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Note 77.102 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 102 of 112
VIKING::TARBET "Margaret Mairhi" 4 lines 26-MAR-1987 14:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I quite agree, Ian; to complain because someone is civil is at best
churlish and at worst both churlish and stupid.
=maggie
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Note 77.103 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 103 of 112
USFSHQ::SMANDELL 13 lines 26-MAR-1987 14:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .100
It's amazing what gets read into the printed word!
.90 said (paraphrased), isn't nice that some (good) sexism lives?
I said (rephrased), it is good that courtesy lives, I can't say
it's good that sexism lives.
Clear?
Sheila
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Note 77.104 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 104 of 112
GENRAL::FRASHER "An opinion for any occasion" 35 lines 26-MAR-1987 15:03
-< Why quit? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re .91
> Or did he pick it up because you were a woman, he a man, and that's
> what men are *supposed* to do, because women are less capable?
I would pick up something for anyone, *especially* if its a woman because
I was taught that I am *supposed* to. I was taught in childhood
that I should help women, be gracious and polite to women. I was
also taught to compete with other men. This may be sexist of my
upbringing, but it lingers. Can I help it? The main point is that
I would do it for anyone and not because they are less capable,
simply because its the *nice* thing to do, and I was taught to be
nicer to women than men. One alternative is to be a prick and don't
help anyone. Would that be any better?
I was once in the same situation in reverse. A woman dropped a
piece of paper and I stopped to pick it up. She stepped on my hand!
I still do it, but now I watch her feet. If she moves her foot,
I jump out of the way. I remember the same situation once when
she simply shifted her weight and I flinched. We both got a good
laugh after I explained my actions.
I've picked up things that men and women have dropped because:
1) I'm closer to it.
2) In the time that they have to stop and turn, I'm already there.
3) Their hands are full and it would be awkward to bend down.
4) It seems awkward for a woman in a dress to bend over or hunker
down to pick it up.
5) It makes me feel good.
90% of the women I have helped appreciated it. I'll keep doing
it.
Spence
P.S. Why quit, isn't this a good topic?
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Note 77.106 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 106 of 112
PRESTO::MITCHELL 5 lines 26-MAR-1987 15:33
-< ;-) >-
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re .104
It's so nice to know that chivalry is not *dead* ;-)
kath
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Note 77.107 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 107 of 112
BEING::MCANULTY "sitting here comfortably numb....." 26 lines 26-MAR-1987 16:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I feel *some* women and men , have gone so far into this
sexism thing (both in here, and outside of the notesfile), that
they are purposely ? forgetting that there are nice people out
there. I was brought up, always open the door for the women,
open the car door for the women. When I went skiing last weekend,
and wiped out in the mogels. I left a ski about 50 yards up
hill. 5 MEN went by it, didn't even ask if I was OK, but a couple
of girls stopped, brought my ski down, and made sure I was OK,
before they left. I don't think some men are sexist, just ignorant
people, who only care about themselves.
When someone tries to get out of the back seat of my
car, they have a hard time, so I always offer a hand, and help them
out. I get thanked, but one time a girl snapped at me and said.
I can get out of the backseat myself. SHe proceeded to trip out
of the car and flat on her face. That was the last day she went
in my car, she refuses to go into it now.
I'm glad some people can still be thankful that there are nice
people out there in the world.
Mike
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Note 77.108 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 108 of 112
SWSNOD::RPGDOC "Dennis (the Menace) Ahern 223-5882" 14 lines 26-MAR-1987 16:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought Chivalry was dead. Was "Gigi" his last movie?
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Note 77.109 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 109 of 112
VIKING::TARBET "Margaret Mairhi" 8 lines 26-MAR-1987 18:00
-< Sisterhood Is Powerful >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since this string was meant as a laundry-list of examples, chiefly
of the continuing existance of sexism but also of "bright spots",
and not a forum for critiquing the virtue of any particular example,
may I ask the authors of .91 et seq. to move their responses to a
new note? Thanks, it'll save me a good bit of effort.
in Sisterhood,
=maggie
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Note 77.110 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 110 of 112
ULTRA::GUGEL "Spring is for rock-climbing" 6 lines 26-MAR-1987 18:05
-< courtesy regardless of sex >-
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I think courtesy is great. But when I try to open doors for men,
I can tell that the man feels uncomfortable. I've never snapped at
anyone for opening a door for me, but I do think that men should
relax a little bit and let women do the same things for them.
-Ellen
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Note 77.111 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 111 of 112
TAHOE::KARLTON "Phil Karlton, Western Software Lab" 6 lines 27-MAR-1987 03:03
-< a gentle reminder >-
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Re: .107
Please don't call women "girls." It jars some of us enough that the
note has to be read more than once to get the meaning.
PK
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Note 77.112 Sexism is alive and well and living at ... 112 of 112
BEING::MCANULTY "sitting here comfortably numb....." 9 lines 27-MAR-1987 07:57
-< Come back... >-
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re .111
Could you explain what YOU mean. I don't see how saying
women instead of girls can change the meaning of what I
was saying ?
Mike
|
| 254.2 | | ULTRA::ZURKO | UI:Where the rubber meets the road | Fri Mar 27 1987 14:42 | 9 |
| re: Mike and girls (and men, he did say men too!)
There are tons of notes scattered around this conference on how the
general population of the women in this conference prefer not to be
called girls. I believe it only courteous of you to respect this wish
in womannotes. I do not use the term faggot or queer in the gay dec
notes. Perhaps someone can provide Mike with a pointer so he can bone
up on the subject?
Mez
|
| 254.3 | No, there was no sexism in picking it up, but ? | CADSYS::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Tue Mar 31 1987 14:27 | 19 |
| RE: the dropped badge
Give them a break! The three men shouldn't even be relevant to the
story. First of all, there was no need to emphasize that they were
male since three women could have walked by you. And second, you have
no right to expect them to pick up things for you. Sure it's
courteous, but you don't know what their situations were. They might
not have seen it at all. I know I am often in a sort of daze early in
the morning and don't notice much of what's happening around me. I
think that by emphasizing what these "men" did or didn't do could be
sexist in itself (although I'm sure it wasn't intentional). You
shouldn't assume that since an older man was courteous and picked up
your badge that he did it for the sexist reason of being nice to a
woman. Let's give him credit by assuming that he would do it for any
*person*. I know that you intellectually realize all this, but this
is how I heard you.
...Karen
|
| 254.5 | Have one of the men... | SSDEVO::YOUNGER | I haven't lost my mind - it's Backed-up on tape somewhere | Tue Mar 31 1987 23:48 | 19 |
| RE: .-1
>I still get "livid" when many people in a variety of organizations
>I've been in, assume that men are supposed to act like the *donkeys*
>(carry this for the secretary, carry that for the program manager)
>instead of encouraging these "weaker" persons to find ways of carrying
>(transporting) their boxes of paper, terminals, TT_printers, etc.
A few years ago I was working in the lab with 3 men. The secretary had
some things that she was unable to carry, and asked the one who answered
the phone if one of us (she apparently didn't think about me - I was
new then) would come up and carry them for her. I was the least busy
at the time, so I went up to help her. Believe it or not, she and
several other women were upset that they sent me up! They stated that
one of the men should have come to carry her things. I will excuse the
woman for asking for help, since I recall her being somewhat sick that
day, but why does it have to be a man who helps her?
Elizabeth
|
| 254.6 | A strong mind but a weak back | BUFFER::LEEDBERG | Truth is Beauty, Beauty is Truth | Wed Apr 01 1987 00:04 | 23 |
|
When I moved to OGO in February I had to return my old CC's
equipment and bring home my new CC's equipment. I returned a
RAINBOW printer and all. I picked up a VT102/keyboard and modem.
As I was carring the VT out of OGO a woman I know asked me if it
was heavy - Well it is not light. A woman standing next to her
turned to the other people in the lobby and said in a very loud
voice "Isn't there a man who can help you carry that terminal?"
Without really thinking I responded "If you can't carry the
equipment you don't deserve to have it." That is a rather strong
statement but I do feel that way. I am not saying that you have
to be able to do it alone - I use two_wheelers and luggage carriers
when they are available. But I don't expect anyone to carry my
stuff for me.
But if someone offers to help me I will use their aid to
lighten my load a little.
_peggy (-)
|
|
| 254.7 | Could you give me a hand...? | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Wed Apr 01 1987 01:01 | 31 |
| Once (when I was in Field Service), we were
having a Unit Meeting and I heard one of the men ask
a woman co-worker if she had used the RA81 Head Disk
Assembly that she had checked out earlier in the day.
She said that she hadn't, and asked him if he needed
it. He said that he did.
So she went out to the car and brought it in
for him. If you are familiar with RA HDA's, they come
in huge boxes. They are not *extremely* heavy, but
very awkward if you have short arms like mine.
Well, my friend had no trouble carrying it into
the building for the man. When the meeting was over,
he suggested that they take it out to his car. She
said, "Say, could you give me a hand?"
I didn't blame her for asking for help (after
all, she had already carried it all the way into the
building by herself and it *was* a favor to him.)
When I went out to my car, I saw the two of
them walking toward *his* car.
*She* was carrying the HDA. *He* was carrying
her coffee cup.
I loved it!
Suzanne... :-)
|
| 254.8 | Sexism vs Chauvinism | COGVAX::MURACHVER | | Wed Apr 01 1987 19:33 | 17 |
|
Sexism vs Chauvinism
All the sexism notes in this category seem to be more
examples of what I would consider chauvinism.
Sexism is when you say to your male boss, "I want to make more money".
Then your boss says to you, "well, you know, my wife, who is a
wonderful nurse should be making more, too." He doesn't understand
that to be compared to a nurse and not a peer, i.e., him, is
sex descrimination. That's sexism.
Let me know how you all feel about this.
|
| 254.9 | Sexist spelling | COGVAX::MURACHVER | | Wed Apr 01 1987 19:39 | 4 |
|
I hate misspelling "discrimination" as I did in my
last note. Please excuse this error.
|
| 254.10 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Thu Apr 02 1987 20:46 | 12 |
| Re .6, I don't think that there's anything wrong with people helping
people, or even with physically smaller people asking bigger or
stronger people to help them carry things. The problem is with
women always expecting men to help them. It shouldn't matter what
the sexes of the people are, but people should help each other out.
Afterall, why should somebody have to be physically strong enough to
carry equipment to their car in order to deserve the equipment? I would
think that what matters is if they have the intelligence to use
the equipment, not the physical strength.
Lorna
|
| 254.11 | more explaination please | CADSYS::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Thu Apr 02 1987 22:05 | 7 |
| RE: .8
I understand that the example you gave shows sexism, I don't
understand why you feel others aren't, just chauvinistic. Could
you explain more?
...karen
|
| 254.12 | sexist stockroom manager | WATNEY::SPARROW | You want me to do what?? | Fri Apr 03 1987 16:14 | 28 |
| A few years ago, I worked in the stockroom. I was put on the
heaviest line(cables) and was responsible for loading the large
cables onto skids, moving them for shipment etc. Alot of times
I could be found climbing the racks to locate lost cable lots. The
lifting limit in the stockroom was 30 lbs, which was ignored. Well
eventually I did hurt my back, legs and arms. The manager suggested
that I move to an inspectors job because of the heavy lifting
requirements in the line I was on. I did get a lateral transfer
and didn't mind so much though I did miss driving the forklift.
About a week later, the stockroom manager came to me and said that
there was a new EEO requirement that they did not feel was fair
to the men in the stockroom(he would have to hire more women and
the men would have to help them do their jobs cause of the lifting)
and he wanted me to go to the personnel office with him cause at
that time I was in a brace from a back injury from moving a heavy
cable load. We are talking 100-150 lb cable spool.
I then found out that he had put me on the heaviest line so that
I would be *proof* that an average woman could not physically do
the job. When personnel asked him why he didn't just move me to
another line, his excuse was that would be sexist, since a woman
would have to prove her strength by working the heavy lines so that
the men would not have to help them. Talk about being setup to
fail. If I had known that he ha bypass EEO, I would
have stuck it out and pushed to be moved to a lighter line like
the other guys in the stockroom did. I was new to DEC and didn't
know that what he had done was wrong. He doesn't work here anymore...
vivian
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| 254.13 | In the name of "equality" | NATASH::BUTCHART | | Wed Sep 16 1987 13:24 | 34 |
| Vivian's reply brings up a point that stings me sometimes, that
point being that a few men I've known will deliberately not help
a woman struggling with something, sneer at her for failing to "do
it right", but tell her loftily "_I_ couldn't help you--that might
compromise your "personhood"; I don't want to be accused of sexism."
I belong to an office "water club"; we pay Poland Springs for a
cooler and humongous jugs of water. One day when I went into water
cube for a refill, I found the tank atop the cooler empty. There
were two male coworkers hanging around and one said to me, with a
mean smile, "Too bad, the thing's empty." He was lolling around
in the office occupant's chair (who was not around) with his own
cup, also empty. "You mean you haven't tried to change it?" I
asked, innocent at first. "No," he drawled, "and what are you
going to do about it?" I realized now that I was being baited,
that he probably wanted me to beg for his assistance and be refused
on "equality" grounds--this was a line I'd heard him use before
on other women in the office. The other guy just stood there looking
uncomfortable.
I smiled at him and said, "Change it, of course. It's easy, actually.
A plant maintenance guy once showed me how; this is how it's done."
I hauled up the next jug, tweaked off the cap, cleaned-and-jerked
it to shoulder height and flipped it onto the cooler. Takes some
strength to do that and do it fast enough that you don't spill
water--fortunately I have that strength and barely spilled a quarter
cup. Even in a suit and high heels. I then filled my cup and left.
I did notice as I left that my baiting coworker looked somewhat
sour while the man who'd been silent was grinning at him as if to
say "called your bluff on that one, buddy" as they filled their
own cups.
Marcia
|
| 254.14 | Way to go | PNEUMA::SULLIVAN | | Wed Sep 16 1987 13:44 | 5 |
|
Good show, Marcia! I probably would have just left thirsty...
Justine
|
| 254.15 | "Water buffalos" - seen that cartoon? | CADSYS::RICHARDSON | | Wed Sep 16 1987 16:48 | 8 |
| re .13
I'm glad I don't work with some of the folks you work with...
When I end up being the one to change our water machine's jug, I
usually round up someone to help out, since we seem to make less
of a mess if one person positions the full jug while the other person
yanks the lid off (after already removing the seal of the lid to
make a "handle"). Water dribbled into the carpet under the machine
makes for midlewy carpet.
|