Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    is it possible for you two to get away for a whole week or more
    together? sometimes it's the danger of being caught and the difficulty
    of continuing that makes such affairs so-o-o-o exciting. there have
    been many cases of couples in similar circumstances who found that
    they couldn't stand to live together when the circumstances finally
    changed. some unpressured time together might help you determine
    whether you wre really suited for each other for the long term.
    
    good luck.
    
    /bruce

    RE:.0

    Let me first warn that I have NO tolerance for people
    who 'cheat' on lovers or marriage partners.

    If I were your husband and found out what you were
    doing, i'd be hurt and insulted and I would leave you
    and take everything with me.  Better yet, i'd kick you out.

    You say that you can't make a decision now?
    You've been seeing each other for 4 years for 
    crying out loud and you need a slight inconvenience
    to make you decide?  

    Yes, I bet it WOULD make it easy if your husband was
    a nasty old so and so, but he isn't and so there
    is no excuse for your very low behaviour and very obviously
    inflated ego.

    People [yes some men are people too ladies] have emotions
    and feelings that deserve as much respect as you think your
    conceited attitude does.

    
    

    I may not always agree with the way Mike puts things, but he
    and I agree on this one.
    					Steve

    
         Here's another vote for you to cut your losses and go home.
    Just because the two of you 'love' each other, it does not give
    you cause to destroy two other lives.  The impact on you might be
    some period of pining, but the alternative is detestable.  I could
    never be responsible for such emotional carnage.
    
                               Bubba
    

    You sound like a considerate person and I know full well how you
    are feeling...
    
    Let him go....take the time to really work on your marriage.  You
    have been given a second chance and if I had had a second chance
    I would have grabbed it.
    
    As much as I hate these words I will say them "TRUST ME".

    My response is based on the little information you supplied, the
    information you didn't supply and reading between the lines.
    
    
    So now it seems that your "perfect" love affair may end. This will
    affect your "perfect" marriage and your "perfect" life. Are you
    looking for Advice or a "perfect" solution? You ask the question "Why then,
    four years later did I fall in love with another man?" It is obvious
    you haven't answered that question. And I don't think any advice
    can help you till you TRUTHFULLY answer it. There is one important
    question you have to ask, what kind of relationship do you
    want with either you lover or your husband?
    
    							Chris
    

    
    Didn't somebody write a song about this?
    
    	"Are you going to stay with the one who loves you,
    	 Or are you going back to the one you love?"
    
    I have to go with Mike on this one.  I've never been married, and
    I've never had a relationship break up for this sort of reason,
    but I would be hurt very badly if I were your husband.
    
    I'm not being a lot of help here, I realize, but from some of the
    things I've heard and read about in this file, you ought to consider
    what a treasure you have in your husband.  A great many of us, men
    and women alike, are destined to pass through this life without ever
    feeling that kind of love.
    
    For the sake of your own sanity, I think your lover is going to
    have to go back to his wife, and you should return to your husband.
    Falling in love with someone else is not reason enough to abandon
    the security of what you claim is a good marriage.  I don't want
    to sound insensitive to your plight, but I think that would be the
    best way.  Get some help if you have to.
    
    If I were the praying type, I'd pray for you.  As it stands, all
    I can do is hope that you come out of it unscarred.
    
    DFW

    
    Re:  .6  Yeah, what a sweetheart!
    
    

While my belief says what your involved in is wrong, my experience aches
for you.  Thank God, it's not my role to judge you.  I've been on both
sides of the fence (not in my marriage, in an engagement that didn't work
out for this very reason). 

Being cheated on was the most devastating thing that happened to me.  I
have never felt so vulnerable or abused in my life.  I am still somewhat
insecure because of that experience.  I don't know why I feel this way as I
am not generally a possessive person, and was attracted to that person for
her independence.  Partly, I guess, I felt betrayed and led on.  I've
learned since that partnership, facing the world together, is primary for
me, and she endangered/weakened that partnership.  Sigh.  words just don't
help or soothe or explain.  Do not underestimate the damage you will do.  Your
partners may persevere, they will never recover (do we ever recover from
life?).  I would guess from your note that you know this. 

My Love affair was just that, a glorious, wild abandonment to love.  I have
no neutral (and not all affectionate) emotions about the partner in that
love affair.  We were lovers above all else.  And, *AND*, as it turned out
not very good for each other in the long run.  A love affair, an affair of
love, is, by my experience, absolutely no indication of a couple's
suitability for a life time together.  The situations and events in which
one pursues an affair of love, have little to do with bills, jobs, homes,
general responsibility and the ability of a couple to deal with these
things together.  I don't think I've ever quite recovered from this affair
either. 

My advice?  Go back to your husband.  Not for morality, not for him, not
for her, not as penance.  Do it for yourself.  I'd guess there might be
more to learn in that relationship.

Or if you must pursue the affair into something more durable, first go off
by yourself.  For a good span of time.  The current environment will not
support the beginning of a healthy relationship with your lover even if you
can manage events to allow you to try.  But before you chuck that "perfect
life" for the love affair, realize that you're probably thinking of
building that "perfect life" again.  What went wrong the first time may
well bite you again if you do not identify it. 

Lot's of words, lot's of assumptions, and a little advice.  Probably not
much help when you have no painless options.  One of the problems with an
electronic environment is that it requires words.  They are sometimes not
appropriate for communication.  

-b

    RE : .6

    I know few woman that you would most obviously think
    are the sweetest things on earth.  

)   My advice?  Go back to your husband.  Not for morality, not for him, not
)   for her, not as penance.  Do it for yourself.  

    Sure, why not remain selfish and narcassistic.

)   I'd guess there might be more to learn in that relationship.

    Let me guess, you call this 'growing'?

    Michael

    Yes, I waited 24 hr's, even 48, but it didn't work.

    Your husband/his wife don't know what's going on?  After four years?
    Don't kid yourself.  There is a very high possibility that they
    do know, but have been keeping their mouths shut hoping the affair
    would burn out.
    
    And don't assume that if you end the affair without ever telling
    your husband, that you have saved him some hurt.  You have already
    hurt your relationship.  Keeping a part of your life which means
    so much to you a secret from him, and sapping the energy of the
    marriage to give it to someone outside that relationship is very
    damaging.
    
    You've been trying to have everything and you *can't*.  Cut your
    losses one way or the other.

    It appears to me that some people consider this the worst sin in
    the world.  I don't believe this woman got up one morning and said
    I am going to hurt my husband for four years by having a love 
    affair.
    
    There are many things one can do to hurt another individual and
    yet it seems we consider 'cheating' the worse.  
    
    I would rather be cheated on then beat.
    
    I would rather be cheated on then robbed.
    
    I would rather be cheated on then have a man that drank.
    
    I would rather be cheated on then ignored.
    
    I have done things I have been ashamed off, but I have also changed.
    To .0 I say again, give your marriage a chance, try again!
    

    re: .13
    
      I would rather be beaten than cheated on, because if it happened
      once, it would be the last time.
    
      I would rather be robbed than cheated on, because I don't think
      material things could mean as much to me as a relationship.
    
      I would rather have a man that drank than be cheated on, because
      I would get rid of him.
    
      I would rather be ignored than cheated on, because I could leave
      to find a true relationship.
    
      I would much rather be 'dumped' than cheated on.  I would rather
      have my husband/boyfriend tell me that this relationship is just
      not exactly what he wanted, honestly, than to find out he had
      cheated (and once is as bad as 4 years to me).  If I found out
      someone was cheating on me, I would say goodbye, no if's, and's
      or but's!!!
    
     

    I does not seem to me a loving relationship can be built on
    self-sacrifice. It's like the traditional role of a "wife": do
    everything for someone else. The beauty of "doing the right thing"
    (a la DEC), is that the right thing works, for the person doing
    it, and the people effected. This is mostly in response to people
    who are implying that the person asking for *our help* is not to
    be given due consideration.
    
    I have no doubt that doing the right thing means doing it (or starting
    to do it) *now*.
    	Mez

    The perception that you are cheated on is somewhat out of context
    ...you are not even part of the act.  In reality the individuals
    are cheating on themselves and the promises they have made.
    
    The need to do something like seek companionship outside of marriage
    comes from a lot of different sources...but it is a problem...
    
    Would you really leave the alcoholic husband...or would you recognize
    his problem and work toward a resolution?
    
    

    
    Sorry, I wrote that note in haste... yes, I would try to help an
    alcoholic husband.  I don't know if I would consider helping anyone
    who hit or beat me, even once though (even though that person is
    in need of help).
    
    The only purpose of my note was to show what importance honestly
    and fidelity in a marriage or relationship has to me - they are
    only my opinions, and hopefully, someday when I'm married, they
    will be just as important to my husband.
    
    

    re:  "I would rather be cheated on than ...."
    
    I'd rather not have any of these things happen to me.  It's like
    saying I'd rather be kicked in the behind rather than in the face.
    No one needs to or should take any *cr*p* from anyone else.
    
    If my SO was cheating on me and said to me "well, it's better than
    me beating on you or being an alcoholic", I'd show him the door,
    not for cheating on me per se, but for a stupid attitude like that.
    
    	-Ellen

	If there is one message to get across, get HELP ASAP. You
can get referals via the Employee Assistance Program, your doctor,
or minister et al. You are sitting on an emotional time bomb in which
all four parties are hurt. Consider also should either marriages break
up that you and your lover can end up hating each other. You got some hard
things to face. Good luck (for all four of you).

    Just one more thing...
    
    My point is simple...it is not the worse thing that can happen 
    in a marriage.  And it is a situation that people get into because
    of either a weakness in the marriage or a weakness in themselves.
    
    To dissolve a marriage because of 'cheating' seems foolish when
    the problem can be repaired.

    Come again?  

    It doesn't seem that Ms. Anonymous WANTS to go
    back with her husband on a mature level, she wants
    it all.

    She's bragging.

    My advice to the author of this note is take look at your marriage
    and determine if it is something you want or don't want.  However,
    if someone carries on an affair for four years, then there must
    be something lacking in that marriage the person needs, and I can't
    help but feel that it is very unfair to allow the spouse believe
    that all is fine and well while this goes on behind his back. The
    author descibes her husband as having many good qualities, great
    let him go and provide these qualities to someone who truely
    appreciates them. 
    
    

    re previous
    
    I don't see that .0 is bragging. Confused about what
    she really wants yes, but trying to honestly talk
    about her feelings.
    
    I would agree with Joyce that there are a lot worse things
    than cheating and that a marriage can survive cheating.
    I would also encourage .0 to end the affair and work on
    her marriage. 
    
    My personal reaction is that some of the responders have
    been overly harsh, but I haven't lived through their
    experiences.
    
    Bonnie

    Another thing comes to mind - if you really can't make up your mind
    (which is what it sounds like to me) consider this.  You made a promise
    to one of these men, but not to the other.
    
    	-Ellen

    0.
    
    I think you are really confused and need help to sort your emotions.
    Forget about the people that are trying to judge you.  You have
    to decide for yourself what you want.  You have to ask questions
    about your marriage and if you still love your husband.  Also you
    have to really ask yourself if your lover really wants to leave
    his wife and how he feels about her.  If you both are in marriages
    without the love or affection for each partner then I think you
    should end the marriages instead of going on pretending.  Then give
    yourself a fresh start on life.  You have to live with your decisions
    no one else can do that for you.  Maybe you need to be alone for
    awhile, maybe this love affair won't last.....but you have to try
    to decide that for yourself.  You are in a very *difficult* situation
    and I can feel very deeply for you.  It's very hard to end something
    knowing you can hurt another person.....but do it if you must because
    it would only be unfair for yourself and your husband.   It must
    be a 100% partnership or it won't work even if you do end your affair.
    
    Good luck,
    
    bs

To .0 I say that you're in for a tough time no matter what. Best find out
who your real friends are and rally them around, you're going to need it. I
think that your first task is to figure out what your own needs and wants
are, without regard to the others involved. I'm not saying be callous about
the others, but nobody can figure out what's in your heart but you, you
can't leave that task for anyone else.

I don't have any advice or suggestions about which way to go. The choice is
yours, and it's a hard one. But marriages can survive love affairs, and love
affairs can survive marriages, and people can survive outside of either one.
But your chances for happiness, and even survival, are greatly reduced if
you're not sure where your own best interest lies. If you're not on your own
side how can you expect anyone else to be?

good luck.
don.

    
    This does not seem like some innocent person getting
    caught in a situation of emotional distraught.

    At least i'm a little more careful about WHO gets my
    support and for what reasons.  

re .0 Temporary,
How clever, using your privs (or having a prived account friend build you
a temp account) to make a phantom account. 
Hmmmmm, are you sure you covered all your tracks?? It isn't such a good idea
to abuse system privileges, especially for personal business during working 
hours. Please don't do this anymore.

< Note 234.0 by SCOTTY::TEMPORARY >
                                -< Love Affair >-

I don't know if this is a woman's issue, but I am a woman and I sure could
use some advice.  I live what appears to be the perfect life--perfect job,
perfect health, perfect marriage, achieved everything I wanted to achieve,
etc., etc., etc.  Why then, four years ago did I fall in love with another 
man?  I wish I could say that my husband mistreats or neglects me, but he 
doesn't.  In fact he *really* loves me.  I wish I could say that my lover's
wife were a witch so that I wouldn't feel so awful about her, but I can't.
She absolutely adores him.  Neither my lover nor I have any excuse, and
yet we continue.  The simple fact is that we really love eachother.  We
are both approaching middle age, so this isn't some Romeo and Juliet stunt.
Also, the affair has lasted four years in the face of incredible odds. 
(Among other difficulties, he lived over seas for 2 of the years). I mean,
some marriages haven't lasted that long!

Both of us waver back and forth about what to do.  One day I do not think
I can bear the hurt I will cause my husband.  He has no idea this thing
is going on.  He would be stunned and devastated.  My lover's wife is 
very old school and could not manage on her own.  Being a wife myself, it
make me sick at heart to think of what she will go through. She knows
nothing of this affair.  We really have been very discreet.  Luckily 
neither of us has children.  On other days I feel resentful that I must
live the rest of my life unhappily just to protect others from being hurt.
To make things worse, he must go back over seas for good soon.  We
really feel that we should make a decision soon but just cannot.  Even
if we could live on the same continent and continue this affair for the
rest of our lives, that would be enough.  But we can't.  Anyway, it makes
me sad to think that even if we could, and something should happen to him,
or, in 40 years from now he dies, I couldn't attend his funeral or even
shed one tear for him in public.  That about sums up the impossibilty of
this situation.  Any advice?

    re .30 What was the point of recopying .0. Your message could
    have been delivered just as well without it.

    Anonymity is fine.  However, this is abuse of the system
    guidelines that 'SYSTEM' set up [i'm assuming that SYSTEM
    is the System Manager] and if I were the System Manager
    I would be as concerned as .30 is.

    re .31
    I agree, there should be a better way to remain anonymous but not
    at the expense of abusing system privileges. The issuse isn't 
    anonymity but security. If the privs are being used for personal
    matters there is the question of how they are being used for WORK
    related issues.
    Don't get me wrong, I am all for notes as a way to converse and
    generate needed discussion. The problem lies in the fact that if
    these people aren't stopped then the whole user community suffers
    when everyone loses their privs. BTW, this is an interesting note
    conference.  
    
    re .32 To use it for justification.
    
    Todd Monjar, Ms. SYSTEM  :')

    re .0
    My advice is to break off the affair.  From what you have said I
    think that it will be better for all involved, and I think that
    you will feel better about yourself if you take this route.
    
    Do consider some type of counseling.
    
                      Much love,
                                 Carol

    My advice is to break off the affair AND the marriage!  And
    then spend some time with yourself, deciding what makes YOU
    happy.
    
    And counseling, too, of course...
    
    
                          DK
    
    

    RE: .35

    It would seem by what she wrote that she doesn't want to.

    RE: .36

    Aye.

    re .30
    
    Sometimes foo::temporary accounts are used by contract workers such
    as temporary secretaries.  I would support them in learning to use
    as many DEC tools as possible (like notes) since that will maximize
    their chances of becoming permanently employed by DEC.  
    
    So, could this have been the case in .0?
    
    Holly                    
    
    (who had a ::guest account at one time!)

    Karma?  What's her number?

    re .0  I read about this story (or similar) in a magazine just the
    other day.  The advice columnist stated (paraphrase): "if this has
    been going on for XX time, don't be fooled into thinking that your
    husband doesn't know.  He does know and is probably hoping that
    you will stop the affair and "emotionally" return to him".
    
    I agree:  physically, you are there.  Mentally, you are with your
    lover and he is with you.  You are cheating your husband of all
    that he married you for: your physically/mental well-being.
    
    Really, look deep into your brain and more importantly, your heart
    and determine what's best for YOU.  While you're at it, get a counselor
    in there to find out why it took you 4 years to search for advice.
    Maybe you figured it wouldn't last this long and that you'd never
    HAVE to make a decision.
    
    Just one more thing: how would you feel if your "loving, perfect"
    husband were having an affair with someone else for about the same
    amount of time?  Would this be your out?   If so, you are a hypocrite
    or don't know you are.
    
    Get in touch with your feelings.  Or better yet, maybe your husband
    will seek the counseling first and do what I would do: leave!  Also,
    perhaps you are afraid of hurting "everyone else" but maybe "they"
    aren't afraid and YOU will be the one to be hurt.
    
    Like Mike, I too can't stand a woman that cheats.  My father cheated
    on my mother with the most awful excuse for "the other woman": a
    tramp, a bad-mouth broad, and they're marrying on the 4th.  Luckily
    I'm busy.

    Dear .0,
    
    There is always a small possibility that your problem lies
    in the question you asked:  ~If everything here is perfect,
    how could I do this?~
    
    There are four thousand million people on this planet.  Excluding
    women, Chinese subsistance farmers, etc., you (personal or
    generic) are facing a world in which *hundreds of thousands* of
    men would be your perfect mate.
    
    So, just because you found one four years (?) ago does NOT
    mean that the man you married before that is IMperfect.  They
    both could be perfect.
    
    So, here's my cynical advice.  Think about your current husband
    exclusive of your lover.  If he's worth keeping, drop the
    lover.  Be nice though.  And be comforted that you know you
    were able to find a good second lifepartner, and that you
    probably can do it again if necessary.
    
    						Ann B.

    re .38
    No, the account was built by a user behind the backs of support
    people. Once again I agree that people should be able to learn as
    much as possible about all our products. But this account was used
    to remain anonymous about an affair, not learn about notes.
    
    Sorry to keep interrupting the flow of this note.
    
    <TEM>

re:.0

Seems you've already made your decision. Now all that remains is to face up
to the consequences for YOUR decision.  Let the facts be known, and the chips
lay where they fall..  

re: ??????::SYSTEM

Does it really matter?  Just manage the system.  IF it's a security problem
do something about it, otherwise stop talking about it..

Clyde

    it seems to me that a relationship exists for the mutual benefit
    of all the parties, regardless of who promised what to whom, when.
    
    i don't want a woman to remain in a relationship with me because
    she feels obliged to, because she's afraid of hurting me, or because
    she thinks that i can't make it without her. i want a woman to remain
    with me because she is happy and is able to meet her own needs in 
    the relationship that we have chosen for ourselves. if she ain't
    happy, she ain't gonna make me happy (and my happiness is not her 
    responsibility, anyway).

    re .44
    Sure thing Clyde, anything you say pal. I'm just trying to get my
    point across like YOU are. Besides I was just displaying proper
    etiquette and answering the question that was asked of me. I did
    apologize but obviously you overlooked that.
    
    Todd

    Re: .45   You're right.  Nobody should stay with their partner because
              they feel obliged to, or because they are afraid of hurting
              that person. 
    
              But if that relationship is not what one thinks it should
              be,  they should let the partner know, instead of just 
              cheating on them.  
    
              I would rather have somebody say goodbye to me than to
              find out that they had been cheeting on me.
             
    

    RE0:
    
    I can identify with your situation only because I been there myself.
    The worst thing I can ever see myself  doing again is living
    a loveless marriage. Don't kid yourself it's pretty hard to cover
    something like this up. It shows itself even though you try to hide it. Do
    some heavy thinking ultimatly it effects the rest of your life. Either
    way someone is going to be hurt. There is no way around it.
     

    The following response was made by a member of our community who
    wishes to remain anonymous at this time.  
    
    I apologise for the earlier inadvertent truncation (still not sure
    just what it was that happened to it)
    
    						=maggie
    ===================================================================
    
    I also had what I described as a very "perfect" life, with the "perfect" 
husband.  I also fell very much in love with another  man.

Because of circumstances I was never able to pursue a relationship with this
person, however I was able to learn a lot about myself and my relationship
with my husband as a result of it.

We had been married 13 years and were cordial with one another, had learned
how to survive together through all that life dealt us and I cared about him.

When this other man came into my life I went into orbit, I have never before
felt those feelings, never before felt so alive, so happy.  To this day I'll
never know if it was infatuation or if those intense feelings were just a 
product of my need and proof of how empty my marriage was. 

In any case, I knew that I could not remain with my husband and have since 
separated. Unlike your situatuation, my husband knew from the first.  Yes, 
this caused  him immense pain. You may ask why he knew, first of all because 
our level of intimacy was such that he could literally see the difference in 
me, for example my elation, the sparkle in my eyes.  I always answered his 
questions honestly, however, I never volunteered information. 

I refer to that affair as my wakeup call to life.  And I am truely more
alive as a result of it.   If I didn't have it I would still be trudging along
beside my husband with both of us half existing and settling for it in the
name of marriage, duty etc.

The very fact that you were so intensely attracted to this man says that
there were some things lacking in your marriage.  

I strongly disagree with people who say you should stay with your husband out
of duty or to avoid causing him pain.  It just isn't that simple.  The fact
that you would rather be with someone else means that things aren't so
perfect in your marriage. And I'd also suspect that they aren't so perfect for
your husband either.  You both just don't seem to talk about such things.

Noone who is a whole and secure person wants to be with someone who would
rather be with someone else.  That just isn't what love and marraige are
about.  Yes there is pain, and we mistakenly say that is because of the
betrayal, the affair, when it is actually because we are sad because the one 
we loved doesn't love us and we are going to be alone and we feel helpless 
because there isn't anything we can do.  But this also frees us to begin again
with someone who may be better suited for us.

I want to make the following gentle suggestions for you to weigh and possibly 
use if that feels appropriate.

1.  Don't do anything fast. I know that the threat of your lover going overseas
again seems to add urgency to the situation, but it doesn't have to, you have
much time to be together in the future if that is what you both want.  However
both of you have much to work out separately with your spouses before that
can be.  And that is where you need to be putting your attention now.

2.  Honestly evaluate the relationship with your husband.  Get some counseling,
tell him you are going through some personal difficulty in your life right now
that may greatly impact your relationship and you want to deeply explore
and evaluate the relationship you both have.  This doesn't have to mean
telling him about your lover.  It does mean finding out how he feels about
the marriage and how you feel about the marriage.  You may both be surprised.

If your husband isn't willing to do this, this may be a clue to the depths of
his commitment.  However, don't fall into the trap of judging his natural fear
and reluctance as unwillingness.  In any case get some counseling for yourself.
 
3.  Don't let your lover's decision to stay or leave his wife determine what
you are going to do.  Don't be fooled, this isn't an "either him or your husband
situation". It is about how you plan to live the rest of your life now that
you have learned what is possible in a loving relationship. You've been given
a glimpse of what love can be, now what do you intend to do with it.

If your lover leaves you and stay stuck with your husband out of fear and 
guilt without trying to re create the relationship to better suit you both
you are cheating yourself and your husband. 

Or you could go to your lover and later regret it because you didn't take the 
time to evaluate all you had with your husband and the depths of both of your 
feelings for one another. Know that when you leave your husband you are 
leaving something that will never again exist on the face of the earth. 
You maybe surprised at all the fond, warm, loving memories that surface. 
You need to be prepared to deal with them.

You need to evaluate your life and marriage on its own merits, using what you 
have learned about yourself from this time with your lover.  But don't leave 
or stay in your marriage based upon whether your lover is leaving his spouse.

You can use this opportunity to bring forth with your husband all those things
you enjoyed with your lover.  Think about the attributes you most enjoy about 
your lover.  Would it be possible that if your husband were to cultivate these 
attributes he would be just as attractive to you, especially considering that 
you already have a long term relationship and many shared experiences and time 
together?  Don't say "but this isn't possible" you really don't know what is 
possible right now. And you won't know what is possible until you define 
for yourself what it is you want and begin to put elements in place to achieve
it.  This process can greatly enhance your relationship with your husband.

Or you can  leave your husband and begin a life for yourself that better suits 
the person that you are right now. The very fact that you are in love with 
another man is a warning signal for your marriage. Only you can determine what 
it means and what to do about it.

4. Don't think of others, think of yourself. I don't mean to totally ignore the
other lives involved, but don't be so distracted by this that your vision is
clouded.  You really need to focus on your own needs and wants at this time.

I cannot believe that if you and your lover have been together for 4 years, 
that either of you  have perfect relationships with your  spouses.  For 
whatever reasons, the emotional climate in both of your marriages was 
conducive to you both having an affair or you probably wouldn't be so attracted
to one another.  

Many people have positively bloomed as a result of ending a so so marriage 
with their spouses.  Ending a poor marriage can be a relief to all involved.

However, do expect that you lover may have to pay extrordinary $$$ for alimony,
to either support her until she gets on her feet, or forever...  And that will
be between them. You really need to stay away from what he does and what he 
decides to do.

5.  Give yourself plenty of time to work things out.  But look mostly at your
marriage. You need to weigh its merits based upon your current emotional
needs, not based upon the fact that you would rather be with your lover.

YOU need to somehow separate the two and I know this is very difficult at this 
time. It would be easy to leave your husband and rush to your lover's waiting 
arms to live happily ever after, without enduring the pain of separating from 
your husband.  However, it probably won't and shouldn't happen that way.  YOU 
need to take a stand for yourself, about what you want and need in your life 
and what you are willing to do to get it, separately from what your lover 
chooses to do. 

And your lover needs to do the same.  He needs to evaluate his marriage and 
choose what he wants to do, very separately from you.  That is the only clean 
way to do it.  That way you are not responsible for any pain his wife endures.
What went on in their marriage is very separate from you. And likewise, what
went on and goes on between you and your husband has very little to do
with your lover.  The present disctraction of your new-found love may ease
the pain temporarily, however sooner or later both of you will need to mourn
the relationships you have dissolved to create this new one between you.
Better you do this work before you begin your lives together.

I've taken a lot of words to say don't hurry, and make your life choices 
independantly of those your lover makes. Be very gentle with yourself and
with your husband, don't underestimate your husband's love for you, and
the value of your relationship.  There are many areas you need to explore before
you make any life changes.

Don't leave your husband until you are certain there is no hope for a better
relationship with him.  To do this you will need to honestly try to improve
it in the ways you would like it to be.  

In either case be thankful for this wonderful time you have been able to share
with you lover.  Cherish those wonderful moments forever and be thankful that
you were given the opportunity to enjoy one another.  Don't be hard on yourself,
don't feel guilty, you did what you did no excuses necessary.  

An affair does not have to be the end of a good marriage, and it doesn't
doesn't have to produce the glue of guilt to bind a bad marriage together
either.  Use what you have learned and create a wonderful life for yourself.
Only you know what is best for you.  A councelor can certainly help you 
clarify things.  You have my best wishes and blessings. 
                                                       

    re: .50
    
    Beautiful.  I wish *I* had written that, and I'm glad you
    did.  I think you said it perfectly, and I concur 100%.
    
    Rita
    
    

    50:  EXCELLENT!!!! I couldn't have said it any better.....very very
    good advice.
    
    0.  Please let us know how you are doing!  re: 30 and his systems
    - Use Maggie to put your responses so you don't get in trouble if
    you want to remain annoymous.....people in this conference do care
    about your decisions even though there have been some harsh critisim
    here....please keep us posted!
    
    Good Luck!
    
    bs
    

       Re: 50, I'm impress with your thought and the effort. I
    wish more people with put as much thought and feelings as you did
    before they touch the keyboard.
    
                         REK
    
    PS, Yes, that includes me too........

    I have a great deal of difficulty understanding the amount of anger
    directed at the originator of this topic.  It appears that a large
    majority of the readers (or at least the respondants) of the base
    note have indulged in a great deal of heavy-handed judgement of
    the author.  As I understood the base note, the author was asking
    for advice on an intimate personal level, and what she received
    were knee-jerk reactions.  I was forcefully reminded of Hawthorne's
    "The Scarlet Letter" - except that no one was (quite) demanding
    that the author be branded with the letter "A" on her breast.
    
    I was impressed with the author's openness and her courage in sharing
    with us what is an extremely intimate and painful subject.  I have
    been in her shoes during my marriage, and I can empathize with her.
    But I don't understand why so many people had to jump on her and
    react so angrily.  She needs advice and understanding, not
    condemnation.  I feel quite sure that the author did not just get
    up one day and say "I think I'll ruin four lives today and have
    an affair".  But the subject seems to bring out extreme reactions
    which may reflect the respondant's own personal doubts, inadequacies,
    and fears.  
    
    Emotional entaglements do happen, and frequently they happen in spite
    of our overt desires and even in spite our best intentions or
    interests.  I find a deplorable lack of understanding for the frailties
    of our brothers and sisters in this file.  Please try to be more
    gentle in our dealings and responses.
                
    ******************************************************************
    
    In many relationships (including my own marriage) people tend  to
    get complacent about the relationship, and indeed about their own
    individual needs.  They go on from day to day and year to year in
    the same old ways without reviewing the situation critically to
    see if the relationship is truely filling needs or is it just getting
    by.  Often, this state of affairs continues until some crisis or
    trauma arrises which causes the participants to re-evaluate, at
    which time many deep-rooted problems step to the forefront which
    neither party realized were there.  A strong attraction to another
    man/woman is only one of the symptoms which may occur.  At such
    a time, it is necessary to take stock and re-evaluate your life
    and what your own needs are.  It may well be that the
    relationship/marriage you're in is the right one and it just needs
    some mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, or maybe the relationship is
    dead, and it is time to move on.  It takes patience, honesty, openness,
    integrity, and above all else a lot of hard work to achieve, but
    it is well worth the effort required.  I wish you gentle winds to
    take you on your long, arduous journey.
    
    An excellent and much ignored movie about the subject of  a mid-life
    affair is "Twice In A Lifetime" with Gene Hackman and Ann-Margaret.
    It presents the story in a very non-judgemental, honest and caring
    way.  I would recommend this movie to anyone who cares to see how
    such a mid-life crisis can, while causing pain for both the husband
    and wife and their children, lead to a fuller, more satisfying life
    for all in the end.  Good flick!
    
    With love and caring:
    
    Dirk

    re .54
    
    i am also disheartened by the judgements being made about
    SCOTTY::TEMPORARY. 
    
    perhaps the anger stems from the realization that one cannot ever
    count on being able to 'ride off into the sunset and live happily
    ever after.' too bad, but life just ain't like that. another myth
    down the chute!

    re. 54 & 55
    
    Right on!  The woman was asking for advise - not to be judged...
    
    
    bs
    
    

    Well spoken Dirk

    When reading some of the critical responses, bear in mind that the
    person writing the reply may find the subject very painful, which
    can make it difficult to be sympathetic.
    
    I agree with the notion that an affair is a symptom and not
    a disease in itself.  If both partners understand this and make
    a genuine effort to get to the root of their problems and solve
    them, the crisis can be weathered.  But what happens all too often
    is that one or the other partner assumes that the magic with their
    spouse is lost permanently and just gives up.
    
    I also agree that it is extremely unlikely that the husband in this
    relationship is unaware of what is going on.  He may not have all
    the details, but by now he should certainly know that something
    is seriously wrong - if only he knew WHAT!  To have an affair is
    to misdirect your energies - you're abandoning your marriage,
    even if you've convinced yourself otherwise.
    
    My advice is to tell the husband everything and go seek counselling.
    Drop the lover for now - if you end up divorcing, he'll wait for
    you if he really wants you.  Make your best effort at saving your
    marriage before giving it up for good.  If it turns out that
    you must end the marriage, the sooner and more openly you do it,
    the less pain will be created.
    
    In the several cases I know of where a spouse had an affair with
    another married person, everybody lost out in the end.  I remember
    reading something in one of the advice columns that has stuck with
    me: if you have an affair with a married man and he leaves his
    wife for you, what have you got?  A man who cheats on his wife!
    (You can swap genders here as needed.)
    
    I'd never even consider cheating on a spouse - it would be a supreme
    betrayal of trust.  That is why I found it hard to sympathize with
    the author of .0.  But I can recognize that she is coming to grips
    with reality and needs help.  Honesty and counselling will be of
    great assistance.  Continuing to live a lie will just increase the
    pain.
    					Steve

RE .50
    
    .0 read and ponder .50 the lady has the best advice. It's not going
    to be easy but believe what she trying to tell you. It may hurt
    for awhile but its better than living a lie for the rest of your
    life. 

    Someone else has said this awhile back...but I am going to repeat
    what they said...this is a very volatile subject...it is my suggestion
    that whatever the woman decides that she take advantage of counseling
    before she confesses and/or makes any decisions.
    
    Honesty is good...but often it does more good for the sinner than
    the one sinned against.  He may very well not want to hear what
    she has to say...and need to go through his own process before he
    is ready for the truth.
    

     Life is very short!
    
    I always remember the quote, Try walking a mile in my shoes or
    something to that effect!
    
    Things happen, people change, life changes! How can we judge someone
    else when we haven't "Walked That mile!"
    
    Cal.
    

    RE: judgements
                  
    .50 has excellent advice, but the situation is entirely different. Her
    husband knew from the first. She was honest, despite the immediate pain
    it caused, and she worked the situation through to what seems a healthy
    conclusion; her experience is valuable, and I respect her honesty &
    courage (but that we all might posess such wisdom to recognize events
    when they present themselves). 
                  
    On the other hand, 0. has shrouded her affair in secrecy. No doubt she
    has had thoughts & feeling that are similar to .50's, but the
    resemblence ends there. In giving any advice one must face the painful
    fact that over a four-year period she has deceived herself, her
    husband, her lover, & her lover's wife. Call me judgemental, but my
    first instinct is not to open my arms in sympathy for her. I don't buy
    the argement that her feelings supercede human decency. 
    
    (BTW -- Thinking the husband might know is whistling in the dark.)
    

    If I may be permitted a digression - there are two serious
    disadvantages to entering an anonymous note as was done in this
    case.  The first is that if any of us wish to contact the author
    personally, we have no way of doing so.  The second is that there
    is noone identifiable as responsible for the note.  As such, if
    it had been entered this way in HUMAN_RELATIONS, I would have likely
    set it hidden.
    
    There is an established procedure for contributing anonymously,
    which is to send your contribution to a moderator of your choosing.
    At least one moderator should be able to identify the author of
    each contribution, as it is the moderators who are in the end
    responsible for the conference contents.  Also, those who wish
    to contact the author by mail need only send their message to the
    moderator, who will then forward it.
    
    				Steve

    re making a judgment on .0:
    
    I don't think most of the responses were judging .0 (although there
    was one vocal person who kept on doing that).  Most of the respondents,
    as far as I could tell, were advising .0 (like she asked) based on
    their own experiences, values, and individual frames of reference.
    
    	-Ellen

    
    	When you were married, you made a 100% committment to your
    	husband, through trouble,sickness, health...etc..etc...
    
    	My feeling is, you STILL owe your husband 100 %.  As I mentioned
    	in another note,  part of being mature, is having feelings,
    	the other half, is not doing anything about it.  You have taken
    	something very valuable out of your LAWFUL marriage, and have
    	given it to someone else.  I don't think their is an either
    	or choice here.  You should leave you lover, confront your husband.
    	If your husband should ask, HOW LONG? Don't say very recently,
    	again your lying, and hiding from your husband. Say long enough,
    	and if he persists, tell him, it's only fair.  Then it's his
    	decision whether he wants to stay, NOT YOURS.  I have a friend
    	that recently had the same problem.  He said to me:  HOW WILL
    	I KNOW SHE WON'T DO IT AGAIN.  I said simply: YOU DON'T.
    
    				Mike
    

	I agree that the primary thing to determine is what was "wrong"
	with the relationship .0 had with her husband - and why her lover
	was able to fulfill that void.

	Affairs are usually symptoms that something is wrong or missing in the
	primary relationship.  Sometimes it's just romance and excitement,
	which the affair will almost always provide; sometimes it's more
	difficult, such as communication, intimacy, and trust.  The problem
	may be related to the tendency of partners in a long term marriage
	to start taking each other for granted since "they'll always be there".

	You need to find out where the original problem(s) lay, and to 
	determine what you really want in life and in a relationship.  
	Professional help is probably best for this.  Friends often tend to 
	tell you what they think YOU want to hear; you (and your medical 
	insurance :-) *pay* a professional to be non-judgemental and objective.

	If you decide to stay with your spouse, consider couples counselling 
	to try to resolve some of the problems that lead to the affair and
	to its duration for four years.

	If you decide to leave your spouse and stay with your lover, I'd
	suggest that both of you spend some time adjusting to life on your
	own and recovering from your respective separations from your spouses
	BEFORE commencing your life together.  

	And don't forget to consider whether it would still be worth remaining
	alone if, after you've separated from YOUR spouse, your lover decides 
	to stay with his....

		Helen

    Re .65, if she decides to stop seeing her lover I don't see why
    she should tell her husband about the affair.  Your attitude about
    marriage (that 100% commitment regardless of what happens) really
    annoys me.  For all we (or she) knows he may have been having some
    flings himself.  I don't think anybody owes anybody a total confession
    of their private life.
    
    I agree with the person who said "walk a mile in my shoes".  Some
    people have been understanding towards .0's predicament, but some
    people have held an extremely "holier than thou" attitude which
    I find very offensive.  Some of you are more than willing to cast
    the first stone.
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  It makes me wonder if some of you aren't just jealous that
    she had the guts to do it.
    

    
    	RE. 67
    
    	>Your attitude about marraige (that 100% commitment regardless
    	> of what happens) really annoys me.
    
    	I don't know if your married or not, but if you are, I hope
    	your other half isn't giving 70% to someone else.  Do you think
    	someone should only give 50% committment to their marriage, and 50%
    	to their lover.
    
    	> For all we (or she) knows he may have been having some flings
    	> Himself.
    
    	We don't, that's why my answer assumes otherwise.  If he did,
    	believe my answer would have been different.

    
    	> I don't think anybody owes anybody a total confession of their
    	> private life.
    
    	I don't either.  BUT, this certain part of her private life,
    	involves her husband, AND her lover's wife. NOt only is she cheating
    	on her husband, she is cheating HIS wife, of him.
    
    	I'm a Catholic.  Not committig ADULTERY is one of the 10
    commandments.	I STRONGLY support that.
    
    	Unfortunately, we are all debating here, but we haven't heard
    	from the original source, at least we I don't think we have,
    	since .0.
    
    
    					Mike
    

I think  part  of  the  problem  with the debates over marriage are that not
everyone sees marriage in the same light.

I know  some  people  who have "open" marriages, the grapevine says the only
reason they got married was to keep the woman's parents off her back because
they wouldn't have approved of her living with her lover.

Each couple  who  marries  hopefully  has a good idea of what marriage is to
them,  what  they  want  out of it and what they're willing to give, and how
long it will go on.

Marriage may  be  an institution, but what it represents is not the same for
everyone.  "Cheating" for one couple may be "growing" for another.

    In a few replies to this topic, I've heard people indicate that .0
    is not only cheating her husband, but her lover's wife.  I have
    to disagree.  It's her lover who's cheating on his wife.  Let's not
    make the lover blameless in this situation.  Although I'm sure that
    the authors did not intend to imply it, blaming the woman for her
    lover's wife being hurt smacks of a double standard. Especially
    when all too often society will think badly of women who have affairs
    but not of men.

    I do not know what responsibility one has towards another's spouse
    when thinking about having an affair, it's just that ultimately there
    would be no way one could hurt that spouse if the other person didn't
    have an affair with you.

    I don't want to debate the question of responsibility towards a lover's
    spouse, I just want to indicate the uneasy feeling I get hearing the
    woman getting blamed for cheating the lover's wife.

    ...Karen

    
    Right now what 0. needs is time to think things out and really evaluate
    herself and her life. Like .50 said before. 
    
    Also being Catholic and learning the ten commandments I remember
    something about how a woman was loyal to her husband. I also remember
    something of an inferno type debate about the man not having to
    be loyal to the wife.....hmmmmmm double edged sword if you ask
    me.
    
    Although some people may think it is wrong (not me) to be divorced
    it is time she does something for herself and makes herself happy.
    Evidently her husband has not fufilled her true needs. (not material
    needs)
    
    Sunshine

    re: .72
    
    oh good! shall we start branding people (again) when they don't
    meet somebody else's lofty expectations of how one should live one's
    life?
    
    have some compassion. .0 is a woman trying to deal with
    a real-life problem, not pass her catechism.
    
    /bruce

    
    I would like to know how the "anonynous .0" feels now.  HAs she
    come to any decisions ?  HAs any of this helped her ? WE've battled
    each other again and again, about MORALS, and Selfishness.  I would
    like to hear from the concerned party, because this has made me
    frustrated, and I want to know, as well as maybe some people, that
    were not blowing a lot of steam, and it hasn't helped.  I know
    many people have lashed out, as well as myself, but it is to be
    expected, that not everyone has sympathy for every thing that happens
    in the world.
    
    		(I hope I didn't start another fire)....
    
    			Mike
    

    Re .75, I do not believe that anybody makes their life a mess by
    choice.  The fact that you do believe this shows me that you have
    very little compassion for your fellow humans.  I wonder if
    circumstances will ever make you change your mind.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I agrre with .76 that people don't make a mess of their lives
    by choice, BUT, apparantly either she didn't and HE didn't think
    of the consequences of what could happen, or had a null regard towards
    them, and continued on without batting an eyelash.
    
    The more I think about this, the more I realize that her problem
    is not that she has a Lover, but the Lover is leaving. 
    
    I don't want to point fingers here, but Lorna, you just branded
    Tom as an uncompassionate person towards fellow humans, or having
    very little.  He may be very compassionate towards someone that
    HE feels is deserving of compassion, thats his choice, my choice,
    your choice.
    
    			MIke
    

    Re .77, perhaps to be compassionate only towards those whom you
    feel are deserving of your compassion is not that compassionate.
    
    Lorna
    

    re. 79  I agree, she did and does have choices in her life.  You
    know the phrase "you make your bed, you lie in it".  Well, that's
    what she's done for over 4 years.
    
    I am not married and have no idea what marriage would be like but
    I have a serious relationship with a guy and one time, while he
    was away in Florida, a friend of mine helped me take care of a car
    problem.  He came upstairs to get warm, gave me a hug (we had been
    involved before) and some chemistry was forming between us.  But,
    I had choices right then and there but I didn't go with my impulses.
    I liked the feelings, the excitement, the way he held me tight.
    Yes, that all felt good but I knew it would be wrong (for me) to
    get involved that night.  
    
    I felt much better having made the choice I did.  So, regarding
    .0, she had choices and will have to deal with what is bothering
    her now.  I still say get some counseling and find out what made
    this situation happen in the first place.  Notice there is no blame.
                                                                        

   
    
    	re .78
    
    	Am I suppose to show compassion if my SO did it to me. I cannot
    	give compassion to someone that has done something immorally wrong.
    	Those are my beliefs.  I would really like to see how the FEMALE
    	population would react if it was a male, that had entered it.
     	Would they be as compassionate, and supportive ?  From what
    	I've been reading through the notes (and someone has recently
        pointed this out as well), many men in here get their feathers ruffled
        because of what they say or think.  Were uncompassionate because
    	two people committed adultery, and could possibly ruin four
    	lives.  I guess I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks.
    
    
    				Mike
    
    	

    	re .81
        
    	>Am I suppose to show compassion if my SO did it to me. I cannot
    	>give compassion to someone that has done something immorally wrong.
    	>Those are my beliefs.
    
    	Jesus showed compassion for Mary Magdelene and the tax payers.
        In your opinion, were they or were they not doing something
        "immorally wrong" when he gave that compassion to them?
    
    	-Ellen

    Re: .81
    
>        Were uncompassionate because
>    	two people committed adultery, and could possibly ruin four
>    	lives.  I guess I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks.


    If either couple has children, there could be a lot more than four
    lives ruined...
    
    				Steve

    There's a big difference between "I do not choose this path of action
    for my life right now" and "That person chose differently than I
    would, and has therefore done something immoral."  For example,
    although I choose not to have an affair, I can not judge Ms. Temporary
    for having done just that. 
    
    Liz

    
    	re .82
    
    	I believe .0 stated either side had no children.
    
    	re .81
    
    > <hypocrisy alert>
    
    	There are many things that the church says, or believes that
    	I don't agree on, AM I A hypocryte for that.
    
    	I don't want to get into a strong religeous argument here. 
    BUT, If my SO (being married), had gone with a male prostitute, and 
    Jesus shows them compassion, am I suppose to, after she cheated
    on me, and committed an immoral act.
    
    			Mike
    

    I view this issue in another respect.  I have compassion for this
    person because I have made mistakes...I have gotten myself in 
    situations that have been difficult to get out off.
    
    Why is this the 'worst' sin.
    
    If I was a kleptomaniac would you have compassion...?

    re .85:
    
    Guess I misunderstood what your religion is.
    
    	-Ellen

    Compassion is a sympathetic consciousness of other's distress,
    together with the desire to alleviate it
    
    I believe Compassion is unconditional, I have compassion because
    another human is in pain. 
    
    Condonation is implied pardon of an offense by treating
    the offender as if it never happened.
    
    This note seems to have caused us to confuse these two.  One can
    have one's anger roused by this woman's actions, and still be attuned
    and concerned with her pain.  We can be compassionate without offering
    condonation.
                              
    I believe all of us is this note care about .0 as a human being
    in pain.  Some of us are activated by her behavior, it crosses
    boundaries in ways we are not able to allow. What I am proposing
    by this distinction is a way we can express anger with her behavior
    and still have compassion for her as a human being in pain.
    
    While I am in the grammar business I would also like to discuss
    the phrase "her life is ruined", that I've been seeing used here.
    Ruin means to devestate, to damage irreparably.  
    
    This sounds like something my Mother would have and has said about my 
    life many times. Once when I quit college, once when I married young, 
    again when I divorced young, etc (belive me the list goes on)  And
    none of these events have suceeded in ruining my life. In fact they
    have added the rich threads to the tapestry that makes this particular 
    set of heartache/ pain/joy and abundance uniquely my life.
    
    I don't believe one event can ruin anyone's life.  0.'s life may
    change drastically, however it is far from ruined. She may undergo
    some painful times, however painful times are also opportunities
    for growth and expansion.
    
    
      
    
    
    
    

     Mine goes to "her" husband and "his" wife
    

    
    It has been my experience that it is much easier to feel compassion
    for the people who fit into the category of 'the poor sinnless ones
    who are being wronged' than to feel compassion for the alleged
    'wrong doers.'  However, I have also found that spiritual growth
    does not come from treading the easier path.  
    
    I am saddened and sorry that there is not more expression of compassion
    demonstrated within the context of this note. (Not to mention a
    whole bunch of other places.)
    
    Alison
    

    
    
    .0  Was asking for advise no approval.  My advise is that .0 is
    the only one that knows all of her side of the story, and I feel
    that she is not in a enviable position.  Her decision has to be
    based on what she knows about the other people involved but what
    ever it is, we as a supportive community (I think this has been
    announced many times in previous notes) should accept the situation
    and not judge.  Whatever is the outcome it will not be easy for
    her or the others involved.
    
    As for branding or condemning anyone for loving someone.  Do we
    really know how we come to love one person rather than another?
    I know I don't, if anyone in the community has the answer share
    it with the rest of humanity.
    
    _peggy	(-|-)
    		  |
    		  |	"The Goddess does not judge and she knows more
    			 than me."
    
    

    I think that .0 has to decide who she loves the most - her lover
    or her husband.  If she chooses her lover she has to find out if
    he is willing to leave his wife.  If he is, she should leave her
    husband and go with her lover.  She should not tell her husband
    that the affair has been going on for 4 years, but should make it
    seem much more recent, like a month or so.  He will then appreciate
    her honesty, and not feel like he's been made a fool of for the
    past 4 years.  This will make the divorce less angry than if he
    knew the truth and spare them both some hurt.
    
    If, however, her lover will not leave his wife then she should stay
    with her husband (as long as she would rather be with him than alone).
     She should just try to put the affair behind her as soon as possible
    even though it will be painful at first because she'll miss him.
     (But, nobody can take away your memories.  You had 4 good years
    with him.)  If she elects to stay with her husband she should never
    tell her husband about it, and if he ever questions her deny it.
     Human nature being what it is, they will both be happier for her
    dishonesty.  As time goes by the marriage will either get better
    and continue or get worse and end just like any other marriage.
    
    Be very sure not to leave your husband until your lover leaves his
    wife, though, or you may lose them both if he chickens out and stays
    with his wife.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Lorna
    

    Free advice is worth what you pay for it.
    

    Re .94, why is that?  Is it because you feel that the advice is
    impractical and will not work in real life?  Or is it because you
    feel that the advice is not honest, moral, etc., etc.?  I'm very
    curious to know.
    
    If it is because you feel the advice is impractical, in what way
    do you feel it is?
    
    Lorna
    

    I still think that all .0 is doing is bragging.

    and - saying this as gently as possible,  your notes sound
    like you have been really hurt by someone doing the same thing -
    
    peace

    What leads you to believe that I was married?

    You don't have to be married to have someone cheat on you
    and be angry about it....
    

    You ass*u*me too much.  I've been hurt, but not by
    ths type of inhumanity.

    

    It is sad that when we (read: women who participate in this conference)
    have tried to make people comfortable, listening to the complaints
    (mostly male) that we are of a single mind and will not hesitate
    to flame if someone presents a viewpoint which does not coincide
    with our limited point(s) of view, that one of the "whiners" will
    not hesitate to nastily trash someone else.
    
    Perhaps turn-about _is_ fair play, and all that, but I think it
    has already been expressed that many readers do not approve.  Further
    slamming the author of .0 is really uncalled for.  If you do not
    approve, don't read 234.*.  NEXT UNSEEN is a magic thing...
    
    Lee

        Allow me to echo what Ann Broomhead said back in 234.42,
        although I won't follow her in describing the view as cynical.
        It is possible that the thing that is wrong here is that the
        young lady who wrote the topic note has been lucky enough to
        twice meet up with some-one who is finely suited to spending the
        rest of their life with her. Our society does a lousy job of
        teaching us how to cope with this.
        
        We feel that if we love one person and then another there must
        be something wrong with us or one of them. This is not the case.
        We can, and many (if not most of us) do find more than one love
        in their lives. The trick is doing the right thing. The most
        right thing is to not get too deeply involved with those who
        come along while you are already in a working committed
        reltionship. Unfortunately, like many Mrs. Temporary and her
        lover failed to do that. And now someone has to pay the price.
        
        I do not know what vows Mr. and Mrs. Temporary exchanged, but
        partially because it is so common, and partially because of the
        way she presents herslf in the topic note, I suspect that they
        included the standard "in sickness and in health, for richer or
        poorer until death do us part." That being the case, it is to my
        way of thinking quite clear who pays the price: Mrs. Temporary
        and her lover. They ought to part--even if in some ways what
        they have is stronger than what either has at home.
        
        One of the many tragedies of every-day human existence is that
        we can't have it all, we can't make everyone happy even though
        they richly deserve it. In the end we have but one life and that
        of only a few score years. We can bestpw it as gift but once
        barring another of life's tragedies--the death of our loved
        ones.
        
        My advice is to let the lover go and to go back to the marriage
        you described as perfect, and make it more so. Go back to the
        perfect marriage to the man who loves you, the man you can't
        bear hurting and love him and make the mrriage all that it can
        be. It won't be hard to leave your lover, but at least from my
        perspective, you must.
        
        And when you do so, remember that we all fail, we all are human
        and frail. We may not all commit adultery or any other given
        sin, but we all do sin. We all make mistakes. Knowing what yours
        is adds very little detail. Those who attempt to stand above you
        and judge you are no better, and perhaps the worse for adding
        adding lack of forgiveness to their own list. For all that
        adultery gets treated as a terrible sin, it is no more grievous
        than any other, and one quite easy to understand. In the end
        what you've done is merely this: to have loved unwisely and too
        much.
        
        And to those of you who judge this woman, what you do is every
        bit as bad as what she did. We ARE in fact told to forgive the
        wrongs done us, to turn the other cheek. We ARE told not to
        judge others as we are just as wanting as they. And as for
        forgiving your own spouse should they stray, that's twice
        mandated: first because we are to love and forgive all our
        neighbors and second because we have vowed to love our spouse
        through good and bad for all the days of our lives. To not
        forgive is to ourselves be foresworn against those very vows we
        can't forgive THEM for breaking.
        
        I understand that others will have different scruples than mine
        and other understandings of man's obligation to man and to God
        (or woman and goddess, if you will). I have cast my advice here
        in the language of the religion in which I was raised, and the
        one in which a very large number of the noters were. If by so
        doing I have offended any, I am sorry. That was not my intent.
        My intent was to give my own version of the advice that was
        requested and to speak my mind on the issue of how this woman
        who asked for advice has been treated. My opinions are, of
        course, binding only on myself. 
        
        JimB.

        Oh, and another thing, for all that I said you should leave your
        lover, that by no means means you can't love him still, and that
        should he die before you you can't attend his funeral or weep
        for him in public. There are number of women in this conference
        alone that I would weep for, and because I love them. That
        doesn't mean that they are or have been or will be my lovers.
        
        It is the very notion that to love someone means you must be
        lovers that causes so much trouble in this area. Love outside
        your marriage, but do not MAKE LOVE outside of it. There are, as
        Ann Broomhead suggested, 10s or 100s of thousands of potential
        "perfect mates" for you. It is very likely that neither your
        husband or your lover is the last you will meet. When you meet
        them treasure them, love them and respect them. They are very
        special people. 
        
        JimB.

    'til death do us part' cannot be a promise... no one can see into
    the future. rather, it is a statement of INTENT. people change.
    circumstances change. life changes.
    
    if one is not happy in one's relationship, and feels that one cannot
    be happy in the relationship, or fulfilled in the relationship,
    and that one can achieve the things that one needs elsewhere, then
    the answer is clear:  DO IT!  
    
    one cannot make one's partner happy in spite of one's own
    unhappiness. one's rewards are here
    on earth, and are what one makes them. continuing an unhappy
    relationship can only lead to more unhappiness.
    
    "prayin' for the end of time
    so i can end my time with you"
    
    /bruce

re: 234.101 


>	...have tried to make people comfortable, listening to the complaints
>	(mostly male) that we are of a single mind and will not hesitate
>	to flame if someone presents a viewpoint which does not coincide
>	with our limited point(s) of view, that one of the "whiners" will
>	not hesitate to nastily trash someone else.

 	The pot calling the kettle black.


>	NEXT UNSEEN is a magic thing...
    
	Couldn't have said it better myself.

-Tom

    
    
Re: Lorna  (.93)

  I agree with you that .0 has to decide who she loves the most, and nobody
  but she can decide that.  Counseling may help her to discover her true
  feelings.

  If she chooses her lover, and he will leave his wife too, I think it is
  ok to lie a bit about the affair (ie, make it seem more recent etc), since
  the marriage is to be ended anyways.

  If she chooses her lover, but he will not leave his wife, I don't think
  she should stay with her husband simply because "she would rather be with
  him than alone".  I think this is a perfect set-up for the same situation
  to come up again.  Something is clearly not right with the marriage if
  this was her choice, and I don't think the marriage could work out.

  If she decides that what she really wants with her husband, I think that
  she should break *all* ties with her lover immediately.  Then, she must
  be very honest with her husband.  She should tell him of the affair,
  instead of keeping it a secret.  I don't think she should give out 
  full details, but she must try to remain honest, if they are truly
  to work out the marriage.  If her husband is compassionate, and decides
  to stay with her, THEY should get counseling, to work out the problems
  that lead to the affair in the first place.

  I know I'll get criticized on the "honesty" point here, to save the
  husband a little hurt (not only that, it kind of puts the ball in his
  court).  But the marriage does need help, and if she
  keeps to herself, they can't get help.  Not only that, but it will
  hurt her to keep it inside... I think she is probably feeling some
  guilt, and to tell the truth, as painful as it might be to do so, will
  purge her of her guilt (over time).  It seems to me that the truth
  always comes out eventually.  Better to tell her husband now, than
  to have him find out (somehow) a few years down the road... then he
  has been lied to twice.  I don't think marriage can be built on
  lies.

  Well, go ahead and abuse this everyone...at least I finally put in
  my honest advice, instead of just judging.  
    
  Just my opinions!
    

    re .106
    
    i agree... lies will only make it harder. lies lead to more lies,
    and will probably cause more hurt than they save. i don't believe
    lies can save a relationship.
    
    /bruce

 Some truths just serve as agonizing details while some others need to
be disclosed. 

 A previous noter mentioned Miss Manners. Seriously, there are many heart
saving ideas in there which do not eliminate communication. 

 I would want to know about *us* and what went wrong and work on that. 
Knowing about them would make me crazy.

-Tom

    
      I agree somewhat, Tom.  I am not suggesting that this woman should
      tell her husband all of the details of her affair.  But she should
      tell her husband that she was having one (otherwise, he will not
      know that there is something wrong with *us* and that it needs
      to be worked on).  It is not an easy thing to do...but I think
      it is essential...  Lies tend to snowball real fast!
    

    I think the first thing the woman should do is to discuss,
    truthfully, the facts about the affair.  I wouldn't lie about
    the length of time, for instance.  Even though it is painful,
    her husband has as much right to make a choice in this
    marriage as she does.
    
    I also agree that the people who deserve the MOST sympathy in
    this situation appear to be the husband of TEMPORARY, and her
    lover's wife.  I can understand what she did, but I don't
    believe that she did the moral or ethical thing in getting
    involved in a four-year affair.  Those who talk about getting
    in touch with her feelings, I don't think you would, or have,
    supported the affair to be begun or continued.  That would be
    unfair to all involved, even if it were possible.
    
    I do feel sorry for this woman.  I have made unwise choices;
    but when I made those bad choices, I had to face the pain of
    having made them.  My advice is to do the RIGHT thing, not the
    thing that causes everyone the least pain.
    
    As I said, I would advise this woman to tell her husband the
    facts of the affair.  If he wants to continue the marriage,
    then she should consider whether her husband can meet her needs,
    whether it would be best for her to remain in this relationship.
    I realize she has this commitment to herself, and support her
    attempts to fulfill her own life.  But she cannot do that in
    her present relationship, even if she chooses her husband.
    
    Other people have expressed religious opinions here.  Some have
    said that God (goddess, etc., as others have expressed) does
    not judge.  I have been taught that he does judge, but He does
    forgive, on condition of repentence.  While I respect the fact
    that you may not agree with my religious ideas, I believe that
    a person who lies or who commits fornication is not only being
    unfaithful to God, but to themselves.  I am not as concerned
    about the results, for I feel she can overcome whatever results
    may occur, but that she is being dishonest with herself and others.

    Most advice columnists and people with psychological training
    that write on the subject stress very strongly *not* to tell
    a husband or wife about an affair. Part at least of the rational
    - as I understand it - is that by confessing you are laying the
    burden on the other person.
    
    Where as I do not begin to have the background in dealing with
    people that professionals have I do feel that their advice is
    definitely worth listening to. If individuals experienced in
    dealing with these kind of problems strongly advise others
    not to confess there must be a good reason.
    
    Before telling her husband anything .0 should definitely get
    herself into counceling.
    
    Bonnie

        "'Til death do us part" can be and is a promise that can not
        only be made but kept. One needn't be able to see the future in
        order to make it or any other promise. You merely need to make a
        commitment and then live up to it. Marriage as practiced in most
        of our culture involves such an absolute and unconditional
        commitment. If you feel incapable or unwilling to living up to
        to such a commitment that's your decision and you should not be
        forced to marry, but if you do make such a commitment it is wise
        to understand it. 
        
        Love is not merely a feeling, it is an action, it is something
        you do and something that requires effort to sustain, just like
        a relationship. To love is to value, care for and consider
        someone else as much as you do yourself. In marriage you promise
        to love and to work together. Marriage and any relationship that
        is of value is entered into not merely for your own happiness
        but out of your love for the other person.
        
        JimB.

    First of all I find it very curious how so many
    people in this file INSIST on breaking discussions
    down to the women and the men instead of the
    various individuals who we are.  

    Judging by that amount of behind the screen 
    value judgments that go on in relation to this
    file [as told to me by another member of this
    file] ABOUT ME, I do not any longer feel comfortable
    here.  Actually, I never did anyway.

    Perhaps in the future this file might take a turn
    for the more non-gender-oriented views it deserves.	

    I realize this is off the topic of the base note,
    but I couldn't resist responding.
    
    re: .113
    
    In case you have forgotten, this is *WOMAN*notes, and their
    is no reason in the world by it should express
    "non-gender-specific" views!
    
    We are individuals, but we are also womyn and men, and the
    experiences we have because of our genders have a profound
    effect on what kind of individuals we are.  Gender identity
    is that very first thing anyone ever asks about a newborn
    human being; it continues to be the major division of fellow
    humans into "them" and "us" throughout childhood.  Even our
    names are, for the most part, gender-specific.  We each live
    in a gender-specific sub-culture, and must deal with each other
    through a maze of sub-culture-specific values, experiences,
    and expectations.

    It is absurd to think that a WOMANnotes conference could
    possibly deal with "women's issues" in a non-gender-specific way!
    As if there were in fact any such thing!

    	re .114 re.113  (this could get involved...:-)
    
    	Sorry, Catherine, but I feel you misunderstand what Mike is
    saying.  
    
    	I also have noticed that fact that men tend to get a bit a raw
    deal in this file.  (Men, my hats off to you for staying with us
    and (for the most part) staying calm and trying to understand.)
    Perhaps my perception is bit more objective as a new reader to this
    file (oh no! here come the flames!).  I qualify that by pointing
    out that I have spent a considerable amount of time reading this
    file over several days and I see conversations that occur over periods
    of time, all concentrated in one sitting.  It really tends to bring
    out the trends of behavior.  I think a lot of you are forgetting
    that YOU ARE YELLING AT THE WRONG ONES!  The men that are here
    are trying to understand!  They aren't perfect, but who is?  At
    least they are trying!  And trying in the face of a considerable
    amount of (what I perceive as) hostility and self-righteousness.
    Yeah, I've been discrimanted against!  No, I don't like it!  BUT,
    I get nowhere by being so God/Goddess-damned over-sensivtive to
    ever nuance of a phrase, etc.  that I STOP LISTENING and start
    reversing the feelings of lack of worth and tolerence aand understand. 
                                                     	
    	Of course we can't be gender neuter here!  But where can quick
    being so quick to beat up the guys.
    
    tlh
    

    RE: .111
    
    I would agree that the woman needs to be involved in counseling
    if she wants to work this out with her husband.  However, I happen
    to not agree with "most" professionals in this area, if they feel
    that dishonesty can help strengthen any marriage.  I do not
    believe in a marriage (or any other relationship) being based on
    lies.
    
    I also believe she owes her husband the truth, if she owes him
    nothing else.
    
    I understand you may disagree; that's fine.  But this is my
    opinion and advice.

re: marriage

Having been thinking about this, after stating to another noter that
non-sexist wedding is an oxymoron :-}...

I know of people who agreed with Bruce Laru about the kind of committment
they were making by getting married. I also know of people who made
the kind of committment Jim B is talking about when getting married.
Agreed out-loud (none of this I thought, he thought, she thought stuff).
Tough for us to tell which kind .0 has.
	Mez

    
    	I still wish .0 would say something here.  It appears that everyone
    	is attacking each others throat, and involved party, has yet
    	to agrre/disagree or at least let us know she is reading her
    	replies, but a thought has just occured, that 
    
    	A) she doesn't have that account anymore,
    
    	and B)  She is too embarrassed to use her own account.
    
    	And also, this could be a hoax to stir many flames among the
    	broilers.
    
    				Mike
    

>   I don't care if you are a man or a woman...

    Then why do you make sexist and hypocritical distinctions
    like:

>    ...(men side) and I hope that the men still stay...?

    Will the writer of the original note (scottie::temporary) please
    make contact with me in confidence?  Thank you.
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

re: 234.118 

 *Everybody* 'judges' other people by what little information they have at
the time. You are judging by your comment that he is taking this personally.
So what if he is? This is a very personal issue and *all* comments are 
shaded by our own personal histories. YOURS TOO, SO BACK OFF. YOU are
casting stones also so don't criticize others because you don't like their
criticisms. 

 Why do YOU care so much whether he is taking it personally? Perhaps you
are taking his taking it personally personally. ;')

-Tom

    This has been an interesting note, partly because it brings up a
    question that I have always had:
    
    Why does society, or custom, or whatever you want to call it, insist
    that a person is allowed to love only one SO?  No one ever asks
    a parent how they can love two or more children, or how a person
    can love more than one parent, or more than one friend, etc.  And
    don't say that the difference is sex.  I know of people who get
    jealous when a child has a close relationship with step parents.
    
    Sally
    
    

    In my experiences and/or travels, I have found that it
    is QUITE acceptable in most cultures to love more than
    one person, HOWEVER when your loving another person
    violates the trust of another person who loves you,
    then you are being disrespectful of that person's given
    RIGHT to consideration of feelings and thoughts.

    Re:.122 Thank you for saying something that would have
	    not been taken properly had it come from me.

    The difference is that Tom is not judging you on
    some pre-supposed-background basis.

        Aw, come on Mr. Mahler! Reread 234.2 and see if you can't see
        just a little bit of a justification for thinking that its
        author might be just the teensiest bit hostile towards the
        author of the base note and maybe even antagonistic towards
        women in general.
        
        There are some women in this file who appear to flame men for
        having the wrong number of chromosomes. There are also some male
        contributors in here who act as if they've got a two-ton chip on
        their shoulder or in some even less comfortable portion of their
        anatomy. Somehow these men tend to get "picked on" for no reason
        at all. Pfui!
        
        JimB.

    Some of my best friends are women.

 Perhaps I was misunderstood.

 *Everybody* reacts to others based upon patterns of behavior. That is called
learning. If .0 pattern of behavior triggers a reaction displayed in a negative
and non supportive reply, so be it. Similar replies abound throughout this
conference in men/(some)men, woman/(some)women entries. The flames to these
kind of notes are generally that when an entry says person, that of course
the author meant some persons and did not mean to imply all persons. .0 is 
a specific person and I feel it is fair to respond specifically.

 From the limited knowledge given in .0 and from my past 'learning' and until 
further information is available, I agree with Mr. Mahler. 

 My suspicion is that .0 is a provocative hoax but a good topic anyway.


 Please note the ;') in my reply. Lets be friends even if we disagree.

-Tom

    I haven't had a chance to read all the replies here, just too many
    and too little time, so what I say may already have been said, refuted
    and re-said, but...
    
    I have been in both situations (long ago and long enough now that I can
    talk about it), being the one who hurt someone and being the one who
    was hurt. You never get over the hurt of betrayal. The sharpness fades
    after a long time, but the pain and insecurity never goes away. 
    
    Some of the suggestions I would make may have already been stated before
    but I think are important...
        - get away by yourself for a while and really think it through
    	- spending round-the-clock time with the lover, may just show
    that it's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there
    	- is the happiness you might have with the lover going to be
    strong enough to overcome the amount of hurt you will cause the
    others involved, hiding guilt is one thing, knowing you have caused
    pain by an action is a much stronger barrier to overcome
    
    Good luck, whatever you do. Something I would like to share with
    you...I was lucky, the hurt I was caused when I was betrayed became the
    best thing that ever happened to me. It made me into a much better
    person and left with me with a much better life, even though it
    can still hurt at times. But I still remember the hurt I caused
    and still feel terrible about it and wish to the heavens that I
    hadn't done it. 
    
    janet b.

re: < Note 234.0 by SCOTTY::TEMPORARY >
                                -< Love Affair >-
Welcome to the Human_race_! A few years ago, a "respected" aquaintence of mine,
became "involved" with one of my close friends daughters. I felt like I was
in the middle of this triangle, so I called my "respected" friend up, and told 
him this: Go and talk to a competant Lawyer; understand that if this winds up
in Divorce COurt; what extent of pain, anguish, and frustration you will cause
that person you profess to love. Consider also, the pain and hurt you will 
cause your lovers family, friends, and associates. Consider also the cost in 
terms  of Dollars and cents - then decide whether or not "its worth the risk"

Someone else mentioned the possibility that the ONLY thing that MAY be keeping 
this affair going, is its clandestine nature; the thrill of meeting in secrecy; 
the challenge of deceit.

You've made no mention of the "nature' of your sexual relationship with your 
SO, or his with his SO, as to whether or no it is 'satisfactory'.

You might try to locate the 'statistics' on how many men 'give up' their 
'lover' after they DO get  a divorce from their spouse, in favor of marrying 
yet ANOTHER woman ! So not only do you risk losing the man you profess to love, 
but also your lover as well, who is *probably* doing the same thing with yet 
another woman ! How would you feel to learn you are one of many, rather than 
THE OTHER woman !

What I suggest, is to get information on what 'usually happens' to people who 
get involved in a situation as you describe, and use it to decide WHAT to do 
next, which fits what you WANT to do !

Bob

    
    	I still would like to know whats going on with the author. 
    If the author is no longer here, and reading the note, or you Maggie
    have not heard from the author, the I request this note be deleted.
    After all, if the author doesn't have the decency of letting us
    know whats going, then the author doesn't really care.
    I am beginning to think that this note is a hoax.
    
    			Mike

        But does it really matter if this note is a hoax. Is it
        inconceivable that someone else in this conference is or
        will be in this situation? Is the discussion and exchange
        that goes on worthless because there isn't an original author
        waiting on our every word?
        
        Please, don't let this note be deleted just because the original
        author has been quiet ever since.
        
        JimB.

re: 234.134 
 
 This contrasts directly with your entry about anonymous entries. 

 Do I understand that if the anonymous (hoax) entries are perceived as
'worthwhile', then they will be allowed to stay? 

-Tom

        If it had been recognized as a hoax entry at day 1, or there had
        been a clear rule that anonymous entries are removed from the
        file and it was deleted at that point, I would have supported
        the move. Now that it has acquired 135 replies and a good
        deal of serious discussion, I feel that it would be unwise
        for two reasons. 
        
        First of all, it provides valuable context for the discussion
        that ensued, deleting that note leaves us with a bit of a
        mystery. Secondly, by deleting the note you cause Notes to
        decide that everyone owns the note. That means that anyone in
        the conference can set the note no_write and anyone can change
        the title. In a conference that has been plagued by hit-and-run
        noters, this just isn't a good idea.
        
        You can deal with the latter problem at the cost of the first by
        merely hiding the note if it is decided to be outside of the
        conference's policy. We lose the context, but the moderator
        retains some control over the topic. 
        
        Beyond those two general points, I would give this note the
        benefit of the doubt because it is very possible that after
        their system manager made it clear that she was guilty of
        abusing his system, the original author may be afraid of
        revealing her identity. In this case we have several possible
        explanations, only one of which is that it is a hoax. 
        
        JimB.

    
    	This note couldn't be recognized at day one, but I have repeatedly
    	asked that the person someone come through with a response that
    	at least she is reading our replies, and IS GRACIOUS that some
    	people are offering her advice.  There are many ways to correspond
    	with out giving an identity.  She could send anyone that has
    	made replies, a letter in the interoffice mail, without
    	her name on it, giving something to reply in a note with.  I would
    	be more than happy to let her COPY a reply into my account,
    	and I would post it for her.
    
    	There are more ways than one to do it.  It just takes a little
    	thinking.
    
    	There has not been a great deal of serious discussion, but a
    	lot of throat cutting, ion many peoples parts, including myself.
    	Especially where the note is old, the person has not contacted
    	anyone, either by phone, letter or whatnot, and people are still
    	contributing there replies.  IT may be helpful to someone yes,
    	but, I guess I'm blowing steam, because a few people have gotten
    	burned, scorned at, and aggravated because someone that now
    	I believe is a hoax,likes to play jokes in the notesfile.
    
    	I believe that the system manager of that system was more upset
    	not because someone used that account, and lashed at them in
    	this account, but because they use it for a practical joke.
    	
   
    				Mike
    

    I don't think this note should be deleted.  It's interesting to
    read the ideas people have put forth regardless of where the original
    author is.
    
    It's also possible that, since the author was a temporary, she may
    not be working at DEC right now, or may have moved onto another
    temporary job where she doesn't have access to a terminal.  There
    are such departments in DEC!
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	I believe that the system manager for SCOTTY said someone
    	fixed up that account so that they could enter an anonymous
    	reply.
    
    			Mike
    

    Please do not delete this note ,or set it NOWRITE. It may go against
    the rules ,in terms of anonymous contributions,etc BUT it has allowed
    many people to discuss their feelings ,and opinions on this most
    frequent of human situations.
    So, there have been some flames and some spleen venting,and yes
    the original author has not been kind enough to provide a progress
    report...so what?? This topic is not discussed anywhere else in
    this conference and since it has started,let it continue ,it will
    more than likely (probably already has) provide useful input to
    the tens of people reading this who are in the same predicament,
    ....trust me ,they are there.
    I beleive that the original note was real,whatever happened since
    then is irrelevant to me ,except that the discussion is one of the
    reasons I log in here ,and continue to read ,and sometimes contribute.
    
    ...Robin

    
    
    Mike why are you so interested in the author of this note?
    
    Maybe we frightened her away.
    
    Moderators please leave this note as is.
    
    _peggy
    

    
    
    	Have you ever offered anyone advice, whether right or wrong,
    	and was curious as how things worked out, or what happened.
    	If someone involves me or asks for advice, I think its a little
    	considerate in letting that person know what happened and
    	how things turned out, especially if it was bad advice, I probably
    	won't give that advice again.....
    
    	I suppose since no action has been taken, that the note is staying.
    	So be it.......

    
    				Mike
    

	I don't get out this way much so i found the base note with 142
replies.
	I read the base note and then proceeded to read the first 23
replies.
	2 or 3 of the replies were sensitive and caring and displayed
a possible depth of intellect.
	The rest of them only served to make me wonder why we all aren't
still living in caves.
	They did reaffirm my faith in digitals equal opportunity employment
program which, apparently, now includes the hiring of neanderthals along
with the mentally and physically handicapped.

	I then jumped to reply 135 (to discover the author has mysteriously
disappeared? (murdered by her husband? a love/suicide pact? perhaps burned
on a cross by a digital vigilante group?) and i then read until the end.

	I did not read from 23-135 because it would take too long and i
have other things that need to be done.....like digital work.

	I was going to start by stating........
	what a bunch of vicious, vindictive, self-righteous, pompous,
overbearing bastards most of you are. You are all forcing YOUR ignorant
and mindless morals/ethics on every one else!

	But that sounded too arrogant and would result in vicious, vin-
dictive, self-righteous replies directed at me.

	So i'll moderate my reply with understanding and wisdom.

	First, whether the person in 0 is a myth or real doesn't matter.
	That situation or similiar ones occur all the time.
	Because society (people) keeps making the same mistakes
over and over and over and over.....
	

	Somewhere in the wide, wide world of notes is a topic about
"true understanding and a better world" to which only one response
was generated.
	Now i understand why.

	Someplace else in the vast world of notes is a topic on
"making promises"
	which got a lot of responses (more responses doesn't nessecarily
result in more intelligiance) but resolved, obviously, nothing.

	The base note in this discussion is a perfect example of 2
things.
	1. why people should realize that they just can't make promises
	like this and
	2. it's ok to change your mind.


	a nut shell:
	ms base note, if you exist and can read this (if the dec vigilantes
haven't found you and taken prescibed measures) please follow these rules
to happiness;

1. don't feel guilty: Society (and these ignorant noters) LOVE to make
peole feel guilty. Society brainwashed you into marriage and making
vows that you had no way of knowing if you could keep. Your relationship
with your husband was a good one. It lasted a long time. You had many
wonderful years with him. Don't ever forget that. Keep those memories
in your scrapbook of life and get ready to move on.

2. be honest: tell everyone involved everything. (ok, leave out the
sexual details) You say you're confused? Maybe you need to spend some
time with your lover. Talk to your husband and your lover (your lover
needs to be honest with his wife, too) and, if needed, start dating
your lover OPENLY or move in with him for awhile just to see what would
happen over a short period of time. If you KNOW, on the other hand, that
you want to leave your husband and spend time dating or living with your
lover then just do it.
	NOTE: it is not important that you remain with your new lover
until you die. You may stay with him for a month or a year or 5 years
and then you may meet another new lover or you may decide to become
gay or abstinate or you may even decide to go back with your husband.
All of these are perfectly OK! So, when i say be honest, i mean...tell
your current lover that you love him BUT DO NOT TELL HIM THAT YOU WILL
LOVE HIM UNTIL YOU DIE CUZ YOU DON"T KNOW THAT! and it's not important.


3. hurt as few people as possible, including yourself: Losing a lover
hurts but, as at least one relatively wisened noter stated, let your
husband go so he can find other people to enjoy life with. And why
should you and your lover spend the rest of your lives living a lie?
Living with someone that, though you care for the person, you just
don't love or want to live with?


A lot of these noters claim they have offered you "wise" advice.
They actually offer you guilt and chains.
What they want is for you to live with your husband and your lover
to live with his wife so that all four of you can live the rest
of your lives in a lie and in pain.

Isn't that nice of them?
What warm, caring, sensitive, mature and enlightened people.


  Many of you noters, especially the viscious ones from the dark ages,
state over and over again how important love is. Then, you turn around
and declare that once a person has made a marriage vow they should
keep that vow until they die. I guess that diminishes the importance of
love quite a bit. We can't have both rules apply. Either Love is the
most important thing or vows are. My opinion (far from humble) is that
the vow, especially vows made in ignorance while bedazzled by the b.s.
of parents and society, is far less important than everyone having as
much love in their lives as possible. Once you no longer love a person
you have the right and duty to tell that person how you feel so that 
both of you can move on to another stage of life.

	see how simple it is?


case history 107:
	L and R met.
	magic!
	L was married for 12 years but hadn't been happy for the last 4.
	L told R about her husband.
	R said "well, if ya wanta play with me ya gotta tell your
husband"
	L said "ok" and did
	B, L's husband, was quite upset and very hurt and hostile to L
for about 5-6 months.
	L would complain to R about what an ass and a jerk B was for
being so hostile.
	R told L that B was just very hurt and confused and please try
to be more understanding to/with him (and forgiving) and, eventually,
he would get better.
	After about 6 months B and L were becoming friendlier and nicer
to each other.
	After about 1 year B met another woman and fell happily in love.
	At about this time B and R were becoming comfortable with each
other and B and L and R were all talking quite pleasantly with each
other.
	Unfortunately, B's girlfriend came from the neaderthal school
of relationships where they teach hatred and pain.

	Now, over 2 years after the initial explosion, the only person
who can't deal with the situation is B's girlfriend. B and L and R
are all very happy.


	The above is a true story.
	The names have been shortened so the author can avoid being
accused a basher.

	Can you see the wisdom and maturity behind the way B and R and L
all handled the situation?
	How they all grew and became better, wiser people?

	the vigilantes can't.
	One vigilante (at least 1!) accused you (ms base note) of being
immature because you were going to leave your husband for a happier
life.
	that vigilante is confusing maturity with mindless obediance
to the rules.

	Far too many of you people remind me of the old joke......
	Guy walks into the doctors office and the dr asks "what's wrong?"
	The guy replies "It hurts everytime I go like this..." and proceeds
to hit himself in the head.....
	The dr says "well, stop doing that and you'll be fine"

	you people cause more pain than for yourselves by so blindly 
following such archaic (and painfull!) and useless traditions.
	please stop.

    As someone who firmly believes herself to be part Neanderthal,
    could I please ask that we find some other way of saying
    "insensitive" or "loutish"?  My Neanderthal ancestors may not
    have been very creative, but they enjoyed art and color and
    flowers, and believed in a life after death, and did not believe
    that everyone had to be perfect.
    
    So let's not call spades shovels, okay?
    
    							Ann B.

    I find it interesting that approximately 140 individuals
    are wrong, and you alone have the "right" solution.
    
    Talk about viscious and insensitive!  I find YOUR accusations
    viscious and insensitive.
             
    Each person was offering his/her opinion and/or advice.  No
    one said the base noter had to buy those ideas!  Just input.
    
    Personally, I can't sypathize too much with someone who has
    been "confused" for 4 years.  Someone who has been dishonest
    and deceitful with someone with whom she made a committment.
    While I CAN sypathize with the pain of love, lack of love, 
    feelings of love for more than one person, etc, I CANNOT sym-
    pathize with dishonesty and deceitful behavior.  Let's face it,
    that's what this situation boils down to. 
    
    Responsibility is being accountable for your own actions, and
    acting in an honest and above-board manner with all concerned.
    Those who can't be responsible for their own lives and their
    own actions deserve no sympathy.
    
    
    

    
    	re 143.
    
    	Ms, MRs, MR, Miss Sawyer,
    
    	Amazing, your right, there are insensitive, ignorant people,
    fortunatley, YOUR ON THE TOP OF THE LIST. Seeing that your into
    quotes, remember this one....
    
    	THERE GOES I, BUT BEFORE THE GRACE OF GOD....
    
    You have a lot of nerve, telling that other people are vicious
    for attacking this person, deja'vu, but then again, I suppose
    you are much better than everyone else, and have all the answers
    to the world.
    
    	AS I always so, TAKE A LONG HIKE OF A SHORT PEIR....
    
    
    		Mike_who_signs_his_notes
    

    
    re 133   where is the author? why has she disappeared?
    	is this a hoax?
    
    
    possible answers:
    
    	reply #1	i have no tolerance for cheaters
    			i'd take EVERYTHING and KICK YOU OUT!
    			no excuse for your very low behavior and
    			inflated ego.....conceited attitude
    
    	reply #2	i agree! with the above
    
    	reply #4	detestable!
    
    	reply #5	? must have been so abusive it was deleted.
    
    	reply #9	what a sweetheart!
    
    	reply #11	 selfish and narcassistic (i think he meant
    							narcisstic)
    			narcisstic doesn't apply to this situation.
    
    	reply #14	beat me, rob me, ignore me or dump on me but....
    			don't cheat on me!
    
    
    is it possible?
    could it be?
    	do you think that these replies just may have, possibly,
    scared her away?
    
    

    	Jumping into the fray a bit late ...
    
    	(Ms) Sawyer I have enjoyed your responses above all others to
    234.0.
    
    	A common thread weaving through WOMANNOTES responses appears
    to me to be GUILT.  Too many responders (again in my opinion) dictate
    their values as the word's from the Mount.  Does having a lover
    make a married person less of a person?  Are any of us in a position
    to judge?  Having been hurt by a 'cheating' mate does not give any
    person the right to preach right and wrong for any other person.
    
    	Some responses in WOMANNOTES show compassion but too many of
    them show nothing more than small minded people going out of their
    ways to prove how small their minds truly are.  I read many attacks
    against the Morman Church in a WOMANNOTES file today and was amazed
    that the noters were not taken to task.  Whay are so many people
    so quick to attack and attempt to put people on a guilt trip simply
    for espousing thoughts and beliefs which are somewhat contrary to
    popular opinion?
    
    Douglas

    
   	RE .148
    
    	>  -< Well done Sawyer. >-
    
    	You agree we are all vicious, and ignorant people.  Yet,
    	if we are "low life", like he implies, for scrutinizing
    	someone with our opinions, doesn't that make him "low life
    	for scrutinizing us about our opinions.  Hey don't walk to
    	far on the water, you might fall in.
    
    	>  Does having a lover make a married person less of a person?
    
    	Maybe in some peoples books it does.  After all, a big part
    	of marriage is TRUST.
    
    	>  Are any of us in a position to judge ?
    
    	If you  agree with Sawyer, aren't you judging us?????
    
    	>  Having been hurt by a 'cheating' mate does not give
    	>  any person the right to preach right or wrong for any other
    	>  person.
    
    	But it's OK to preach for other things ???  Now sometimes,
    	people give advice, and then are questioned on their advice,
    	and they use whatever guides them, for their reasons.
    
    	I gave my advice, as to what she should do.  I stated that
    	what she did was morally wrong, at least in the eyes of my 
    	church.  
    
    	> Whay are so many people so quick to attack and attempt to
    	> put people on a guilt trip simply for espousing thoughts
    	> and beliefs which are somewhat contrary to popular opinion.
    
    	Seems like you are a HYPOCRATE here.   IF you think what
    	Sawyer wrote was OK, then you might want to read your last
    	paragraph again.
    
    
    				Mike
    

    Re .146, .148, he's a guy.  I've lived with him for the past 2 yrs.
    so, needless to say, I know :).  Also, his name's Rik.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .146, Mike, isn't that quote you were trying to come up with,
    "There, but for the Grace of God, go I?"
    
    Perhaps you should think of the situation of the originator of this
    note and then reflect a little on the quote that you brought up.
    
    Lorna
    

    What we are all guilty of is prescribing a way of happiness and/or
    life.  
    
    Some of us have judged the author of the base note.
    
    Some of us have judged some of the people who have replied.
    
    And all of us have indicated what we think is the right way to
    live.
    
    Prescribing a way of life and expecting it to be the _true_ and/or
    only way of life is serious business and can do as much damage as
    criticism.  We are a sum of a lot of experiences, values that have
    been taught to us since childhood and the background of our families
    and associates.  
    
    People who make mistakes should not throw out the values they have
    lived by for years....that is ridiculous...we would have a different
    value system every few months (at least I would).  

    
    you people dish it out well but taking it seems a little harder
    to do.
    
    i firmly believe i was far less vicious (less than you deserved)
    than so many (not all!) of you were to ms base note.
    
    so you can abuse her and call her detestable but no one had
    better say anything nasty to you?
    
    you can be nasty to other people but it isn't right for anyone
    to be nasty to you?
    
    silly people
    
    i don't think i'm "better" than other people, just more aware.
    more enlightened. i've grown more and i continue to grow.
    
    far too many of you people have stopped growing and are just wallowing
    in your quiet, desperate lives.
    
   that's too bad.
    it always makes my life rougher when i run into ignorant savages.
    
    rik
    

    
    To those of you who, either prior to or after my replies, responded
    to ms base note (or me!) in a caring, openminded manner i'd like
    to say.....

    
    there are so many insensitive and ignorant people all over the world
    who can't/don't want to try and make the world a better place for
    anyone but themselves.
    
    judgemental, abusive, rude and crude....they make life difficult
    for anyone they can...!
    these are probably the same people who made fun of kids who were
    different in school.
    or maybe they were the butt of abuse and now they are dishing it
    out.
    
    anyway....knowing that there are some people (in dec!) in the world
    who do care, who are compassionate and considerate, who have open
    minds.....makes my life a little better.
    
    i'm glad you people exist and i wish you well as you grow through
    life.
    
    rik
    

    Rik, When you talk about people being able to dish it out but not
    being able to take it are you sure you are talking to the same people?
    Have any of the people whose notes you objected to responded to
    your criticisms or are you getting reactions from people who think
    that you are being unfair to paint the whole note file as hypocritical
    and unkind based on a few replies by a few people? I think that
    if you had taken the time to read the whole note you would have
    found other noters had also objected to what they regarded as overly
    harsh criticism of the base note individual.
    
    Bonnie J

    Having been in a somewhat similar situation [wife cheating on me],
    maybe I could offer something.
    
    I wasn't angry that she was sleeping with someone else.
    I was angry that she started sleeping with someone else 10 hours
    after she said she didn't think she could do an extramarital affair.
    I was angry that her lover deliberately tried to pry her away by
    attacking me when I was down.
    I was angry when he would come up with pious, hypocritical saying
    while claiming he had such high moral standards.
    
    When my [by then] ex-wife dumped him, I was happy because she would
    now be happier.  She is now engaged to someone else.  In my own
    opinion they are perfect for each other [so sue me for being a little
    judgemental].  I have re-married, we're expecting our first child,
    and we're happy.
    
    The result:  My ex is happy, her fiancee is happy, I'm deliriously
    happy, my wife is happy. [Can't speak for the baby yet :-)]
    
    Only the ex-lover is unhappy.  He can't have his cake and eat it
    too.  He likes to keep women on a string.  General consensus is
    he's an *sshole vampire who likes to drain the energy out of other
    people's relationships [he's working on a friend's fincee now but the
    friend has been warned].
    
    re .154 [Hey Rik, remember me?]
    Rik, I'm probably 90% in agreement with you.  You still may state
    your words in a volcanic fashion, but the message is the same. 
    Why should two people stay together if they aren't happy?
    
    If they have children, it would only make matters worse.  If they
    don't, they will probably be affected in many other ways.  Why
    shouldn't people live up to their potential?
    
    To .0 [if she's still out there] I would say that she should put
    all the cards on the table and have everyone confess.  The only
    wrong thing going on is the deceit.  That's judgemental but, face
    it, in today's world, divorce is no longer a four-letter word.

    
    	GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY!
    
    	GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY!
    
    	here it is!...you're chance to grow as a human being!
    
    	you may not get another opportunity for a long time so take
    advantage of this special offer!
    
    	If you take this opportunity now you will recieve the following;
    	wisdom!
    	appreciation!
    	humility!
    	good feelings!
    	
    	you'll grow as a person and, quite possibly, even recieve some
    joy from the experience!
    
    	listen to these people who took advantage of our once in a life
    time golden opportunity that offered last year...
    
    betty: i felt so good!
    bob:  i felt like i had grown as a person, like i was learning...wiser.
    bill: i haven't stopped growing since! I get wiser all the time!
    boob: didn't do a thing for me....i didn't like it...i'm going back
    	to being abusive and ignorant
    barbara: my s.o. noticed how much wiser i was right away...what
    	a wonderful feeling it is!
    
    	yes, 4 out 5 people whose names start with B successfully
    grew from our once in a life time golden opportunity!
    
    	and now.....another once in a life time opportunity to grow
    is here for your benefit....
    
    to take advantage of this offer all you have to do is the following...
    
    sit quietly....
    close your eyes....
    wait...open them....if they are closed you won't be able to
    follow the rest of the instructions....
    
    relax....
    
    repeat the following;
    	i guess my attitude towards the base note was pretty abusive.
    	and it was not very nice.
    	it was certainly judgmental.
    	and all of that is the wrong way to be.
    	I want to be nicer to people.
    	I don't want to judge them.
    	I want to help them.
    	I promise to try very hard not to abuse peopel any more
    	I promise to stop judging people and abusing them viciously
    just because they are in a differnt situation or have different
    beliefs.
    	i'm sorry i treated ms base note (don't forget rik!) and rik
    so terribly.
    	I will be a better person from now on and try to understand
    people better in order to avoid these negative abusive feelings
    and thoughts.
    	
    
    	that's it!
    	you are now a wiser person...!
    	congratulations and send me a check for $20 at 
    	NIO/V20
    	rik sawyer
    
    	you're welcome.
    

    bonnie
    	i did not paint the WHOLE notes files as being anything...
    
    	i told the truth.
    	The truth is far too many of the replicants to this note
    	(and so many other notes!) are abusive and judgmental.
    	Yes, i recieved criticism.

    	But that's ok. I can take it. It's no worse than when one is
    standing next to the baboons cage at the zoo and the baboon throws
    mud (or ???) at the cage window.
    	
    
    	dish it out?
    	reply 2: mahler
    		i have no tolerance for people who cheat
    		i'd leave you and take everything. I'd kick you out!
    	no excuse for your low behavior and inflated ego!
    
    	reply 3: lionel		i agree with mahler
    
    	reply 4: sullivan	detestable!
    
    	reply 9 lizbicki	what a sweetheart
    
    	reply 11 mahler		selfish and narcisstic
    
    	that, bonnie, is abusive and ignorant and judgmental.
    	that, bonnie is them dishing it out.
    	that bonnie is who/what i'm talking about/to.
    
    	i've already stated at least 2 times that i am not directing
    my reply to any of the positive, compassionate replicants...just
    the ignorant, savage vigilantes.
    
    	i think it's unfair of you to suggest that i painted such
    a horrid picture of all notedom.
    	I didn't.
    	just the ones who make life miserable for other people.
    	the ones who make me wonder how they sleep at night.
    
    	if i were god....they'd be in hell.
    	

    Since I am obviously one of the positive, compassionate noters [large
    grin!]...
    
    I would like to take a tangent. Someone has mentioned judging others
    for judging. [Sounds a lot like "who will watch the watchers".]
    Anybody got any words of wisdom on that one? Is it internally
    inconsistent to judge people who judge? Or is this argument sophism
    [or some other ism]? Is it like saying "I can't tolerate intolerant
    people"? Or is it more Western logic, and is there another way to
    think about it?
    	Mez

    Rik,
    
    I don't doubt the intensity and sincerity of your feelings.  Might
    I offer a couple of thoughts on the way in which you present them:
    
          o	To declare "i told the truth.  The truth is. . ."
    		in those words make it sound extremely absolute -
    		as though this must be THE truth for everyone; that's
    		a tough one for many to swallow.
    
          o	Very possibly other people have been "abusive and 
    		ignorant and judgemental. . ." (depends on your
    		definitions), but will it help you to reply in kind?
    
    Seems to me (from other notes conferences) that when you've taken a 
    few minutes to turn the flames down to simmer, others have felt
    you to be far less abrasive; and listened to your thoughts a lot
    more closely.  History is regretfully full of individuals who 
    HAVE set themselves up as "God" and then condemned the "unrighteous"
    to various living and dying hells.  I just can't believe you really
    want to join those ranks.
    
    But as usual, "Everything in this book may be wrong."
    
    Steve
    
    

   OK Rik, Here is your note....
    
[ I've included my notes in brackets ]
    
         
               <<< MOSAIC::$2$DUA11:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics Of Interest To Women >-
================================================================================
Note 234.143                       Love Affair                        143 of 159
SKYLIT::SAWYER "i'll take 2 myths and 3 traditions" 169 lines  27-APR-1987 16:42
                     -< shoot first, ask questions later >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	I don't get out this way much so i found the base note with 142
replies.
	I read the base note and then proceeded to read the first 23
replies.
	2 or 3 of the replies were sensitive and caring and displayed
a possible depth of intellect.
	The rest of them only served to make me wonder why we all aren't
still living in caves.
	They did reaffirm my faith in digitals equal opportunity employment
program which, apparently, now includes the hiring of neanderthals along
with the mentally and physically handicapped.

	I then jumped to reply 135 (to discover the author has mysteriously
disappeared? (murdered by her husband? a love/suicide pact? perhaps burned
on a cross by a digital vigilante group?) and i then read until the end.

	I did not read from 23-135 because it would take too long and i
have other things that need to be done.....like digital work.

    
    [ Are you trying to impy something here.  Anyways you should have
      read the rest like someone else said...sorry I forgot your name...]
    
	I was going to start by stating........
	what a bunch of vicious, vindictive, self-righteous, pompous,
overbearing bastards most of you are. You are all forcing YOUR ignorant
and mindless morals/ethics on every one else!

[ seems you already stated it ] [ Now as I read this again, it pisses
  me off.  I guess you must not be catholic, because the catholic church
  morals, are, as you said it, IGNORANT, MINDLESS MORALS/ETHICS. ]
   
   
    
    	But that sounded too arrogant and would result in vicious, vin-
dictive, self-righteous replies directed at me.

[ You asked for it...you got it ]
    
    	So i'll moderate my reply with understanding and wisdom.

	First, whether the person in 0 is a myth or real doesn't matter.
	That situation or similiar ones occur all the time.
	Because society (people) keeps making the same mistakes
over and over and over and over.....
	

	Somewhere in the wide, wide world of notes is a topic about
"true understanding and a better world" to which only one response
was generated.
	Now i understand why.

	Someplace else in the vast world of notes is a topic on
"making promises"
	which got a lot of responses (more responses doesn't nessecarily
result in more intelligiance) but resolved, obviously, nothing.

	The base note in this discussion is a perfect example of 2
things.
	1. why people should realize that they just can't make promises
	like this and
	2. it's ok to change your mind.

   [ So your saying that, when you get married, you should state that
     honey, I can't promise I'll love you forever, if I find someone
     else cuter, or is better in bed. Gimme a break...
    I understand entirely, that you can change your mind.  But do
    you do it at someone elses expenses. When it first started, she
    should have broken either one off, not have her cake and eat it
    too ]

	a nut shell:
	ms base note, if you exist and can read this (if the dec vigilantes
haven't found you and taken prescibed measures) please follow these rules
to happiness;

[ funny how your rules are the rules to happiness]
    
    1. don't feel guilty: Society (and these ignorant noters) LOVE to make
peole feel guilty. Society brainwashed you into marriage and making
vows that you had no way of knowing if you could keep. Your relationship
with your husband was a good one. It lasted a long time. You had many
wonderful years with him. Don't ever forget that. Keep those memories
in your scrapbook of life and get ready to move on.

[ society didn't brainwash her...she made up her own mind.  If it was
    a good one, why has it turned the way it has...If it's not broken
    why fix it.  You make it seem like, your in a baseball game, and
    you struck out with the bases loaded, oh well, there will be next
    time...must be nice to have a laid back attitude, about something
    important, HER life, not yours ]
    
    
    2. be honest: tell everyone involved everything. (ok, leave out the
sexual details) You say you're confused? Maybe you need to spend some
time with your lover. Talk to your husband and your lover (your lover
needs to be honest with his wife, too) and, if needed, start dating
your lover OPENLY or move in with him for awhile just to see what would
happen over a short period of time. If you KNOW, on the other hand, that

    [ that would be hard..if you read the first note, you would see
    he is going oversees for good ]
    
    you want to leave your husband and spend time dating or living with your
lover then just do it.
	NOTE: it is not important that you remain with your new lover
until you die. You may stay with him for a month or a year or 5 years
and then you may meet another new lover or you may decide to become
gay or abstinate or you may even decide to go back with your husband.

    [ Its not that easy..the husband may not want her back...]
    
    All of these are perfectly OK! So, when i say be honest, i mean...tell
your current lover that you love him BUT DO NOT TELL HIM THAT YOU WILL
LOVE HIM UNTIL YOU DIE CUZ YOU DON"T KNOW THAT! and it's not important.


3. hurt as few people as possible, including yourself: Losing a lover
hurts but, as at least one relatively wisened noter stated, let your
husband go so he can find other people to enjoy life with. And why
should you and your lover spend the rest of your lives living a lie?
Living with someone that, though you care for the person, you just
don't love or want to live with?


A lot of these noters claim they have offered you "wise" advice.
They actually offer you guilt and chains.
What they want is for you to live with your husband and your lover
to live with his wife so that all four of you can live the rest
of your lives in a lie and in pain.

Isn't that nice of them?
What warm, caring, sensitive, mature and enlightened people.


  Many of you noters, especially the viscious ones from the dark ages,
state over and over again how important love is. Then, you turn around
and declare that once a person has made a marriage vow they should
keep that vow until they die. I guess that diminishes the importance of
love quite a bit. We can't have both rules apply. Either Love is the
most important thing or vows are. My opinion (far from humble) is that
the vow, especially vows made in ignorance while bedazzled by the b.s.
of parents and society, is far less important than everyone having as
much love in their lives as possible. Once you no longer love a person
you have the right and duty to tell that person how you feel so that 
both of you can move on to another stage of life.

	see how simple it is?

[ that is simple...in words...but you might want to try a divorce, before
  you screw around with someone else....]
    
    
case history 107:
	L and R met.
	magic!
	L was married for 12 years but hadn't been happy for the last 4.
	L told R about her husband.
	R said "well, if ya wanta play with me ya gotta tell your
husband"
	L said "ok" and did
	B, L's husband, was quite upset and very hurt and hostile to L
for about 5-6 months.
	L would complain to R about what an ass and a jerk B was for
being so hostile.
	R told L that B was just very hurt and confused and please try
to be more understanding to/with him (and forgiving) and, eventually,
he would get better.
	After about 6 months B and L were becoming friendlier and nicer
to each other.
	After about 1 year B met another woman and fell happily in love.
	At about this time B and R were becoming comfortable with each
other and B and L and R were all talking quite pleasantly with each
other.
	Unfortunately, B's girlfriend came from the neaderthal school
of relationships where they teach hatred and pain.

	Now, over 2 years after the initial explosion, the only person
who can't deal with the situation is B's girlfriend. B and L and R
are all very happy.


	The above is a true story.
	The names have been shortened so the author can avoid being
accused a basher.

    [ One story out of a million..amazing what you think one story can
      do huh ???? ]
    
	Can you see the wisdom and maturity behind the way B and R and L
all handled the situation?
	How they all grew and became better, wiser people?

	the vigilantes can't.
	One vigilante (at least 1!) accused you (ms base note) of being
immature because you were going to leave your husband for a happier
life.
	that vigilante is confusing maturity with mindless obediance
to the rules.

	Far too many of you people remind me of the old joke......
	Guy walks into the doctors office and the dr asks "what's wrong?"
	The guy replies "It hurts everytime I go like this..." and proceeds
to hit himself in the head.....
	The dr says "well, stop doing that and you'll be fine"

	you people cause more pain than for yourselves by so blindly 
following such archaic (and painfull!) and useless traditions.
	please stop.

[ why stop.....just because you don't like....If you don't like the
    way the world turns, why don't you reverse it ]
    
    
    				Mike
        

	RE: Last dozen or so.

	First of all, .0 asked for people's opinions, and she got them.
	She has no right to expect all opinions to agree with what she's
	already done.  

	2. This is a very difficult topic becuase it touches religious,
	moral and ethical beliefs.  I agree that some people might have
	stated their beliefs as right and wrong, and that she was wrong might
	be judgemental.  It was, and they have a right to state that, while
	I do feel that some people did so in an abusive manner.  .0 also
	has the right to ignore any of it.  We're talking about what
	people believe, and how they rule their lives.  I don't think
	anyone dammed .0 to hell as Rik did those who said she was wrong.
	Moral beliefs are important to a society to keep from having
	chaos.  You have to have something to guide you, even if
	every situation is not black and white.  

	3.  I think that everyone should try to be less abusive while
	stating their beliefs.  Some shouldn't have been so hard on .0,
	and others shouldn't be so hard on those.  You don't know
	where anyone has walked before, so you cannot judge.  If you
	do think that someone is wrong, explain your reasons, maybe
	you can influence them.  You will never influence someone by
	attacking them first.  But then, that's just what *I* believe :-).

	4.  I apologize for attacking Rik in this note.  He upset me
	by the tone of his notes.  To me they indicated that he thought
	he was an authority on what was right or wrong, and my moral/
	religious beliefs tell me that only God has that right.

	5.  I have refrained from replying to this topic before becuase
	I don't think anyone can really give .0 any advice.  It's not
	like a novel where you know all the characters and if just
	A got together with B, they'd live happily ever after. 

	...Karen

    Re 158 <rik>:  "if i were god....they'd be in hell."
    
    	Now THAT'S judgmental !!!
    
    Re 159, on judging the judgers:
    
    Yes, it's valid to judge the judgers...take a generic process:
    
    		input       -->  process  -->   output
                            ^                     v
                            +----- feedback ------+

    apply it to what we do here, only think of it as a continual process,
    like we hope life and learning are, and where we hope that the outcome
    has some effect on what we do the next time around: 
    	
    		read note   -->  react    -->   write reply
                            ^                        v
                            +-- evaluate reply ------+
    
    except that this is all very iterative and can get a bit out of
    hand:

    		read note   -->  react    -->   write reply
                            ^                        v
                            +-- evaluate reply ------+
                                   ^       v
                                   +-------+
                               evaluate evaluation
    
    				      etc.
                                       
    which is why there are 164+ replies to this note.
    
    RE:  All of These Replies ---
    
    		Should one choose to have an affair
    		Enjoy it with a quiet flair
		Go about thy days with secret smile
    		And post it not in the WOMANNOTES file!

    
    					- Dotsie
    					   (who hasn't)
    					      (yet)

    re: mini-workshop on line in note .157
    
    rik, I think the people running EST are looking for you!
    
    ;-*
    

    The author of the basenote said that her lover was going overseas
    "soon".  It's just possible that the reason we've not heard from
    her is that she's gone overseas to be with him permanently.
    
    	-Ellen

    Maybe she figured out that she would have to solve it herself
    and stopped reading all this thrashing.  

re .last
She can't get an anonymous account??? (re:.30)

    Re .165, that sounds romantic.  I'd like to think that's what has
    happened.  Maybe they'll live happily ever after - for a few years
    anyway :), too.
    
    Lorna
    

    This is a sad situation for all involved!!  When someone cheats
    on another person whom they supposedly love and know the other 
    loves them, how do they wind up in a situation like this? 
    
    What happens if you divorce your husband for this other guy and
    sooner or later he treats you like dirt.  What are
    your chances of getting the guy back who really loved you?
    
    Also, How the hell would you feel if the tables were turned and
    your husband was out loving another women behind your back?
    
    I can't figure out you "KIDS" these days!