Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I don't tolerate behavior like that in my own childrenn, tho they
    at times try and get away with it and I would not hesitate to take
    on any other child or parents who treated me that way in public.
    Rudeness is rudness, no matter how you try and describe it. People
    who bring their children up that way do them a disservice.
    
    Bonnie 

    When I was teaching, the teachers blamed the parents and the parents
    blamed the teachers/school system/administration.
    
    At this point I have come to a conclusion that shocks me!  I am
    greatly in favor of civil rights for everyone, but I would be ready
    to curtail a few that apply to children.  (or maybe I'm just getting
    to be an old fogey?)
    
    Look at the role models.  Listen to the message in the music.  Look
    at the kinds of behaviors idealized on television.  Add in a few
    basic human qualities of "not feeling like doing (whatever)" and
    season with permissive education.  And don't forget the toys...
    
    How would a kid with anything except amazing and wise parents even
    be able to navigate this crazy mixture of messages?   
    
    Another thing that scares me is children's constant need to be
    entertained.  Many of my best moments as a kid (only child at that) were
    doing creative projects with scraps, doing art and music, and reading.
    It seems to me that one of the tasks of childhood should be to get
    to know yourself when bored.  Out the boredom can come some amazing
    ingenuity.
    
    Bill Cosby's new book has a few gems about the "gimme" generation
    which should appeal to anyone who has ever spent even a few minutes
    in the presence of little people.
    
    Reactionary as it sounds, it's the culture and the values that scare
    me the most.  It's kids buying into the images that they are sold
    but do not know that they are sold by Madison Avenue.  It's a whole
    generation of kids who think that looking, talking, and acting like
    hoods is the highest possible achievement.  All that scares me,
    but any possible solutions along this line are even scarier, so
    I mostly keep my mouth shut.
    
    And I can't sign off without mentioning all the truly wonderful
    and lovable kids I have met--somehow they are managing to find their
    way in a much more difficult world than I had to navigate.  More
    power to them and their folks, and may  *they* become the role models
    for the others!

    Every generation has has spoiled kids. We have more because
    theres more stress in modern life and so adults fail to spent
    the necessary time to offer guidance. Also, kids are just plain
    unfashionable what with everyone's mind on cars, clothes, etc.
    I see the hostility they recieve from most adults they run into.
    Small wonder they cordially return the favor by steal cars, being
    pests, and painting their hair orange. The yuppies forget that
    they were once smelly, gassy little blobs too. No, maybe they
    deserve a planet of their own where their short carefree years
    can be spent learning and having fun, in the company of those 
    who love them.

    I have often told everyone that I may like individual children but
    that I hate kids, as a group. It's still true. I want a kid or two
    someday, but I only decided this after my mother convinced me that
    I would raise the children as reasonable humans, not the horrible
    examples that are too prevalent today.
    
    I tend to think it's parents not giving the kids enough attention
    of the right kind. I have a friend who has a 7 year old boy and
    he is a sweet kid with horrible manners. All her friends take turns
    teaching him how to behave in restaurants, how to be polite, etc.
    because she won't take the time. I only hope his having multiple 
    mothers works out.
    
   kris

    
    At the risk of calling the fires down upon me, I would say that
    modern parents, not modern children, are the problem.
    
    To answer the question, no, I don't like being around children.
    I did not like being a child, and spent most of my childhood with
    my nose in a book to get away from it.
    
    DFW

    No, not really.  I want to have children some day but like someone
    else said, I don't really like children as a group but there are
    certainly some well behaved little exceptions: my little nephew
    Jeffrey.  Although very biased, he is by far the most polite 3 year
    old I have known today.  He thanks me after every glass of milk
    and even says "God bless you" after I sneeze (I sneeze alot).
    
    But, I will share something honest with all of you.  I really don't
    care for my other two nephews that much.  Oh, I am "blood" and I
    feel bonding but they are the most arrogant, inconsiderate, impolite,
    selfish children that I have ever known.  My sister is at fault
    and her husband has a lot to do with it because both parents let
    the boys do whatever they want.  So, each time I babysit for them,
    I end up adopting the rules of their "mother" because I know it
    wouldn't do me any good to change things now (how could I, she's
    with them more and her rules (ahem!) are followed by them).  Oh,
    the 7 year old says, "my mother let's me do this".  I asked mom
    about jumping off the spiral staircase on to the livingroom couch
    and she said no.  Ok, so I'm going on an on.  The point: the parents
    AND the school, the media, the celebrities, the toys and what have
    you have a great impact on the personality/behavior of today's
    children.
    
    
    Personally, I'm glad I grew up when I did (Ne 61).  I wouldn't want
    to be a teenager today, that's for sure.  Too rude, loud and yes,
    some of these kids would rather watch MTV than learn!  I for one
    loved school and right now, I wish I could have learned more.
    
    One last thing my 21 year old sister said to me:  "I want
    what I want because I deserve it".  When did this all happen I'd like
    to know.                                

    Much of what is being said against today's children in this collection
    of replies was said against the writers not too many years ago.
    
    Kids are a true pain in the arse (8 nephews and neices, 2 grand
    children) today but they didn't raise themselves!

    I know some unruly kids, but I also know some that I don't mind
    being around, for at least a short time.
    
    I pretty much agree with .0.  I hate going to a restaurant or theatre,
    and have someone's angel crawling all over me, making so much noise
    that I can't hear anything else, running, screaming, the list goes
    on.  However, I also am not fond of babies.  I don't understand
    why so many people, especially women, want to hold and coo over
    every new baby they meet.  I usually run the other way when I see
    someone coming with a baby - as they usually think *I* have a problem
    when I don't want to hold their baby.  What is so cute about them,
    anyway?  They don't even have a personality yet - just cry, eat,
    sleep, burp, and mess up diapers.
    
    Now mind you, I have nothing against people who want children having
    them.  I wish the best for every child.  But please, not too close
    to me.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    
    I think the brattiness found in kids today can be attributed
    to the high divorce rate.  Single mothers with kids, especially
    those that are working, don't have the energy to discipline
    and will let the kid do what he/she wants for sake of peace.
    
    While shopping at the Pheasant Run Mall recently, an 8 year old
    boy came up to me, smiled at me, and then wound up and punched
    me in the stomach.  And delivered quite a wallop too, I might
    add.  Why did he do this???  His father probably lets him practice
    his shots on Dad's stomach all the time.....this is the only
    reasoning I have for that type of behavior.
    
    Some people may disagree, but I say, spare the child....smack
    the parent.
    
    Jeanne
    
                                                                   

    Children today are no better and no worse than they ever have been.
    There have always been well behaved children, and there have always
    been brats. There have always been parents who controlled their
    children, and there have always been parents who did not control
    their children.
    
    Some people have always disliked having children around, and
    some people haven't. Some people want to have children of their
    own, and some don't.
         
    So what else is new?
    
    -bs
                        

    I agree with many of the noters here.  Some children are terrific,
    some are holy terrors.  My mother was an assistant principal of
    my high school (and later the principal).  She told me that her
    opinion of what was wrong with kids today (1970's) was that so many
    parents were afraid to discipline.  They thought the kids would
    not think their parents loved them if the parents disciplined them.
    In fact, according to what the kids told my mom, the kids thought
    the parents DIDN'T love them because they DIDN'T discipline them.
    The kids interpreted this as the parents not caring.
    
    I don't think the kids are really much worse than before.  Every
    generation has had the older generation complain about them.  I
    know my father was a little turd when he was young.  I also remember
    the hurt and indignance I felt when I read or heard how "kids today"
    were rotten, inconsiderate, irresponsible, etc.  I was a good kid,
    and I knew many other good kids, and felt we were being misunderstood
    because good kids seldom get in the paper or on TV compared to "bad"
    kids.
    
    I'm rambling, too.  Let's hope that we can have some positive influence
    on the children with whom we come in contact.
    
                       Carol

    I only enjoy being around disciplined, well-behaved children. But then
    I only enjoy being around disciplined, well-behaved adults.
    
    Eileen

     I like kids (I don't have any of my own) my sister kids are typical
     they fight with each other (there are 3 of them) and say rude things
     mostly to each other.  I consider her a very good Mother she
     disciplines them, but she can't control everything thing they said.  
     She can only set an example the hope they follow it.  I do agree
     with most of you I don't like kids that are spoiled by their parents.
     My girlfriend's neighbor came over Christmas Eve with her two little
     girls and the two year I wanted to strangle.  She climbed all over
     her mother and ended every sentence with MINE..  She screamed if
     she didn't get her way.  I am very good with kids (I don't put
     up with anything - beleive me) noticing this the woman asked if
     I babysit...   I answered quickly with NO!!!!
     
    
    
     Have a Happy New Year!!!
    
    
     Pam
    

    As I read this note and replies I am looking forward(?) to a visit
    from my niece and nephew tomorrow (they'll be here for 3 days).
    Fortunately grandma and grandpa will be with them to keep them in
    line a little.  I like them and they are basically good kids (very
    irresponsible however), but it sure is nice when they leave.
    
    They seemed to have picked up most bad habits from their mother.
    Their father (my husband's brother) remarried this year to a woman
    who has better manners, more class, etc. and hopefully they will
    be able to change some of the kids habits since the kids are living
    with them.
    
    I know I wasn't a perfect child - fought with my brothers a lot,
    but we were good away from home and when other people were around.
    I definitely think children were disciplined more back then (50's-60's)
    than they are today.  I remember the principal being able to hit
    kids in grammar school.
    
    Several of my friends have had babies this year (I have yet to hold
    any of them - like other noters, I don't see what the attraction
    is) and it will be interesting to see how they raise them.  One
    took her baby to a restaurant recently - said she heard people moan
    when they walked in.  But the baby made no noise and she had people
    come up to her and say how well behaved the baby was.  Hope the
    kid stays well-behaved.
    
    Guess I agree with most of the noters on only liking to be around
    good kids, but not being around any is fine with me too.
    
    						Jan

    
    		
    	I, too, agree with most of what has been said here so far. 
    I do not tolerate *other people's* children well at all.  I have
    some close friends who are parents of my daughters friend and they
    spend very little time with her.  Whenever I am over there she is
    in her room and only comes out to eat.  (She's 14).  I feel if they
    tried to include her more in their activities she'd be a better
    behaved child.  (She has taken things from my home when visiting
    and cuts school frequently without her parents knowledge. 
    
    	I do have to take argument with the comment (.10) that the 
    cause of such behavior as we see today is single parents.  I have
    raised both my daughters alone for the past 12 years and they are
    no trouble at all!  They are well mannered, know how to behave in
    public, not into "hard rock"/drugs, etc. etc. etc.  This is not
    just my opinion but the opinion of teachers / friends / people at
    public places who observe their behavior.  In some ways I think
    they are *better* behaved because of being brought up in a single-
    parent environment.  They *had* to be more responsible and mature
    more quickly than their friend (mentioned above) who never has to
    do chores around the house or anything.  
    
    	I agree parents are usually the problem (as I believe my friends
    are at fault and they are a married couple; both working!)  

    I shouldn't keep putting my sister down but I can't help but feel
    that her "problems" have affected the behavior of her two sons.
    I really can't take being around them.  This Christmas, they each
    got over $500 in gifts (from their parents alone) and when Mark,
    the 7 year old, came over to my mothers and only got 4 gifts (one
    of which was CLOTHES), he said to my other sister, "I didn't
    get any gifts".  This same sister told him, "What an ingrateful little kid"
    and his mother just laughed.  She laughed.  How can she laugh? 
    She does nothing to discipline him.  He is the type of kid that
    is very curious (I can't blame him, I am too).  But, I don't break
    apart toys to see "what makes them work".  And, they are not HIS
    toys.  That's the younger son.
    
    The 9 year old is very money hungry.  Ok, so they have money.  Their
    father is a millionair (business assets, but close to that in personal
    assets).  He said, "you know why I liked my First Holy Communion
    Party?  Because I got so much money".  He said about $400 (it was
    close to a $1000).  When I told him that my little niece got about
    $700 for her Baptism, he said, "Oh, yea, I got $800.  I forgot".
     This child is trying to immitate his father who has to "beat the
    Jones' on every count".  
    
    Yes, I'm flaming, it isn't my problem but I want you to know that
    MONEY has had a big effect on their behavior 'cause if they didn't
    have soooo much money around, they would value "a toy" and "clothes"
    instead of saying, when something breaks, "that's alright, my mother
    will buy me a new one".  That was a $40 toy truck.  
    
    I'll pass with that philosophy anyday.  And babysitting those boys
    ever again, that's for sure.               

    Some of the blame for "rotten children" has to rest with the children
    themselves, too, especially when they get to be teenagers or beyond,
    not just their parents.
    
    One family who lived a couple of houses down from where I grew up
    had two daughters and a son.  The oldest daughter was a year older
    then I.  She was a quiet, pretty, smart, polite child.  I think
    she eventually became a fashion model someplace.  Their son is my
    age.  He was a quiet, handsome, smart, studious kid, who also was
    a track star in high school.  I believe he is coaching track at
    a high school somewhere in the midwest now (my mother would know;
    I haven't seen these people in some years now, and the son did not
    attend our last high school class reunion).  The other daughter
    is my brother's age (three years younger than I am).  She was always
    a terror, causing trouble of one sort after another, a lot of to
    deliberately annoy her mother (a very nice lady who played cello
    in my mother's string quartet).  She still is.  And yet they were
    all raised in the same family.  And the youngest daughter is now
    over thirty, certainly old enough to know better than to be a terror.

    RE: .10:
    
    >Single mothers with kids, especially those that are working, don't
    >have the energy to disciplin. 
    
    Same can be said in families where both parents are working.  I
    do recognize that some people can handle the "super Mom" (or Dad)
    situation, but raising children and holding a job takes a lot of
    effort.
    
    Elizabeth
    
    

    re .18
    
    You don't know exactly what that family's situation was.  Could
    be that the parents favored the other two kids over the third and
    she, the "terror", was trying to get attention somehow.  I've seen
    other kids do it and I should know.  I was that way when I was a
    teenager.
    
    	-Ellen

Re: .3,

Your statement that "...one of the tasks of childhood should be to get to know 
yourself when bored.  Out the boredom can come some amazing ingenuity...." is 
absolutely brilliant.  Not a bad idea for adults, either.

CQ

    
    Rude people are anathema to me, no matter what their age.
    
    My brother believed his kids had the right attitudes. They never
    said "please", "thank you", or observed any of the social niceties,
    like eating with guests. They also were allowed to stay up in the
    evenings until they decided to go to bed. 1 am bedtimes for 4 year
    olds?
    
    When we had our children, our FIRST resolve was to instill some
    realistic moral and social values - such as "please" and "thank you". I
    may be harping on this, but those phrases, sincerely meant, are part of
    social acceptability. They also make people feel good when they
    give Christmas presents, for example. 

RE: .19

>    RE: .10:
>    
>    >Single mothers with kids, especially those that are working, don't
>    >have the energy to disciplin. 
>    
>    Same can be said in families where both parents are working.  I
>    do recognize that some people can handle the "super Mom" (or Dad)
>    situation, but raising children and holding a job takes a lot of
>    effort.
    
    Wouldn't it be nice to be able to point to a situation and say
    "Ah Ha! That's the reason!"?  I've met lots of kids whose parents
    are in lots of different situations, some traditional (Mom stays home
    dad works), some both work, some single parents and even where Dad stays
    home, Mom works.  It takes a lot of work no matter what situation, and 
    you have to point to the upbringing as well as the child's characteristics.
    It really has nothing to do with what the working situation is (though
    some may use that as an excuse).

    ...Karen

        RE:  -1
    
                Was it respect or fear?  When I was a child, I
            never *DARED* to talk back to my parents (and my parents
            were never able *ONCE* to admit to their children that
            they could ever be WRONG about anything.)  Perhaps they
            felt that such an admission would show a sign of weakness
            to us that would undermine their authority.
    
                Not that they weren't also quite LOVING at the same
            time, mind you.  It was just that they also held STRICT
            and ABSOLUTE CONTROL over us as well.
    
                When I had my son, I made up my mind that I would not
            set myself up to him in the same way.  I've always been
            open with him about the fact that I make mistakes (and am
            not too proud to apologize to him when an apology is due
            him.)
    
                My feeling was (from the beginning) that if ANYONE in
            the world should be subject to his noise, his messes, his
            wild behavior, and his annoying childishness -- it should
            be me (as his Mother.)  Therefore, I made it my policy that
            he had the freedom to create noise and havoc in our home
            (when we were there alone together) -- but he was *NOT*
            to inflict his noise, etc. on other people (not in public
            and not at their homes.)
    
                When we went shopping, he was told from a very early
            age that if he "begged" for toys or "acted up" in ANY WAY
            WHATSOEVER, the guaranteed result would be that I would
            not spend a single cent on him.  If he behaved perfectly,
            I *still* might not spend a single cent on him (but at least
            the possibilities were still open.)

                Since he was always fairly free to run wild while alone
            with me, he never seemed to feel the need to do it in public.
            (At 16 years old, he is still quite conscious of his behavior
            with adults in my presence.)  We often get invited to small
            adult parties together (and other informal evenings at friends'
            homes) -- he handles himself very well.  He's fairly quiet,
            but can engage in adult conversations (and plays Trivial
            Pursuit fairly well, too!)  
    
                We spent Thanksgiving at the home of some friends from
            DEC (there was another adult guest there as well from DEC.)
            We had a great time.  When we got home, Ryan asked me, "Was
            I a pest?"  (He wasn't!!)  But I thought it was wonderful
            that he was concerned enough to ask if his behavior had
            been acceptable.
    
                Meanwhile, at home, he still makes a sizable racket
            and has annoying habits that only I get to see.  (That's
            OK with me!)  I'm still his Mom -- when I gave birth to
            him, I accepted the whole ball of wax:  his messy diapers,
            his throwing up, his food on the floor, his noise, his tears,
            his anger, and a whole lot of his *LOVE*!
    
                People out in public did not make that commitment to
            him, so there's no reason why they should be forced to endure
            the "less endearing aspects" of his childhood -- for the
            most part, they haven't had to with my son.
    
                                                          Suzanne...

                 There's one story I wanted to tell about how
            I "cured" my son of the tendency that most toddlers 
            have of grabbing things and yelling "MINE!"
    
                 He was 18 months old at the time and we were in
            a drug store at a mall in Honoulu.  We were cruising
            through the toy section and Ryan found some little thing
            that he wanted.  He picked it up and said "Mine!"  (Not
            in an extremely loud way, just as a statement of fact.)
    
                 I went down to his level and pulled the toy away
            from him (telling him that the toy was NOT Ryan's until
            Ryan paid for it!!)  I gave him a $5 bill and walked him
            over near the line for the cashier.
    
                 I gave him back the toy and told him to stand in line
            and wait for his turn.  When he reached the lady behind
            the counter, he was to give her both the toy and the money.
            She would give him back the toy in a bag (and give him some
            other money back as well.)  He had gone shopping with me
            enough times that it wasn't a totally foreign ritual to
            him (he had just never done it alone before.)
    
                 I pushed him (by himself) toward the line with his
            toy and his money.  (Then I hid nearby where I could watch
            what happened without his being aware of me.)
    
                 When his turn came, he reached up to the woman behind
            the counter (to hand over his toy and his money.)  She looked
            down at him (he could barely see over the edge of the cashier's
            counter.)  She looked in front of him and then behind him
            to see who he "belonged" to.  Everyone shook their heads
            (to say that he wasn't *their* child.)  
    
                 She looked back at Ryan (seeming to be a bit confused
            to find a paying customer in the form of an 18 month old
            baby.)  But after a few seconds, she decided that the transac-
            tion was a valid one -- even if her little customer *WAS*
            wearing only a T-shirt and a diaper.

                 The funny thing is that she proceeded totally normally
            at that point.  She looked down at him in a business-like
            way and asked, "Will that be all?"  Ryan, of course, just
            looked back at her in silence.  (He didn't understand the
            question.)  :-)
    
                 She handed him his toy in a little bag and he reached
            out with his other hand to accept the other money that she
            gave back.  Then he just walked on through the stall (where
            I caught up to him.)  No problem at all!
    
                 After that, he understood what the situation was with
            "possessions" (and knew that nothing could be "HIS" without
            an exchange of the green paper that his Mother carried.)
            We next went through an agreement on what was required (in
            the way of behavior) from *HIM* in order to get me to part
            with my precious green paper in exchange for a toy.
    
                 He was never a problem in stores once he understood
            what the deal was.
    
                                                         Suzanne...

    
    My generation, or actually those growing up 2 - 7 years after
    me were supposed to be the "worst generation ever" at the time.
    They refused to be drafted, protested almost everything, dropped
    out of school, listened to rock'n'roll, took up civil rights (probably
    communist you know!) used drugs, invented sex, let their hair grow
    long etc. etc!!! And it was all the result of permissiveness, Dr.
    Spock, the bomb, etc. etc. etc. Now we are come to a second or third
    generation from my own and it is equally being touted as the "worst".
    To me it seems like it is a tale that repeats every generation,
    and seems the "worst" to those who are parents at the time.
    
    I vowed that I would listen to my kids, and let them argue back.
    Neither my husband nor I are the firm disciplinarians our parents
    were. Like Suzanne we will appologize when we are wrong,and allow
    our children to have and express their own points of view.
    And we have paid for this. Our kids do not obey instantly and they
    argue back rather than blindly accepting our word, and they can
    argue me into a corner and I have to be careful not to make statements,
    I can't support, and some times we have real problems with enforceing
    politeness and respect.
    
    BUT - they behave well in public, care for other people, are good
    students, have a strong sense of family loyality, and can be relied
    on. It may be harder to raise kids when they don't jump like I did
    for my father, but you can do it. and I just proof read my oldest
    son's college application, and read his essay about the person who
    was his hero - he described his father, and appologized that he
    couldn't include me as well, and I also read a teen mag quiz that
    my thirteen year old daughter took on honesty and found (to no
    surprise)that she scored in the bottom third on honesty. 
    
    So there are good times and bad times. But I believe that if you love your
    you can enforce rules with them and raise them to be decent people
    if you try, tho it certainly isn't easy.
    
    Bonnie

    

    Re: the original question
    
    I don't like ALL children, any more than I like ALL adults.  
    
    My husband's twelve-year old niece said something very rude to him
    once in a public situation (we were at a dinner party), a personal
    remark that was extremely critical.  He snapped at her (essentially
    telling her that it was none of her business), but then had a huge
    fight with his sister about his "critizing her children's behavior".
    What a mess!  This is a parent who insists on treating her children
    like adults (taking them to adult cocktail parties they *weren't*
    invited to, etc.), but won't tolerate anyone treating them that
    way.  I have a real problem with this.
    
    My parents (as I can recall) expected just about as much from me
    in the way of disciplined behavior as I could give them; i.e. they
    didn't expect a four-year old to have perfect table manners, but
    they did expect me not to throw my food!!  I learned self-discipline
    (there is no other kind that is worth anything) by being taught
    mostly by example that there are rules that made our family work.
    That meant there was no point in my complaining about washing dishes
    or making my bed; I had to do those in the same way that my Mom
    and Dad had to go to work each day.  It was a fact of life.  And
    you can't teach that to someone when they are five-years-old; it
    has to be learned "in the cradle".

    We weren't PERFECT children by any means, but we never had the
    misconception that being children excused us from bad behavior.
    
    G

    re .29
    
    Kerry,
    
    We do have rules in our family about courtesty and politeness,
    and our kids are punished if they break them, for example they
    could be sent to their room (no steros or tvs there either!) or
    haul X number of logs for the furnace.
    
    But by allowing our kids to be free to question and speak their
    own minds we also get kids who answer back and are rude to us
    sometimes. Yes it is a problem, and one we are continually dealing
    with. But in the long run I'd rather that, that kids who are afraid
    to object but rebel in secret.

    We behave differently to our spouses/so's what ever, than we do
    to the general public also. Are we freer to express our minds,
    get angry etc. with those who we trust perhaps?
    
    Bonnie

    I never know what to talk about.  

    My personal opinion is that parents who make threats and don't
    follow through with punishment are idiots and may well be 
    producing kids who misbehave like the ones described here.
    Punishment doesn't have to be physical, however, and I have
    seen members of both sexes respond in this (ineffectual) way.

    Follow up on .15
    
    I had a pleasant surprise this past weekend when my niece and nephew
    came to visit.  They have been living with my brother-in-law and
    his new wife for 4 months now and the change is really amazing.
    They now have rules (written up and posted on the refrigerator)
    at home, and the rules also apply to anywhere they are.  For the
    first time the house was not littered with their toys and garbage
    (e.g. banana peels in the middle of the living room floor, apple
    cores on the coffee table, etc).  It sure was nice not having to
    clean up after them or get them to clean up after themselves.
    
    They are learning more respect for other people's property, too.
    If they used anything of ours, it was returned to it's place
    immediately after use (last time they were here they forgot where
    they left things of ours and everyone had to search for them).
    
    Couldn't resist putting this in to show that some "not so great"
    kids can learn to behave better without too much hassle.
    
    						Jan
    

    I did not read through all the replys to see if this answer
    was here, scanning through here didn't show anything. 
    - So - here it goes.
                      
                              
    I have two children, but I also feel unfortable around other
    peoples children.
    
    Re:0 I assume by your input that you have only one child, I have
    two. Some times they get along together so well you wouldn't know
    they were around. Other times they can't be be in the same house
    with out trying to kill each other. I can also take one or the
    other shopping or what ever and have a great time. Having only
    one child tends to give one a distorted view. 
                      
    *Modern* children are brought up by *modern* parents.
                              
    One of the excuses that a friend of ours gives for their childrens
    behavor is that its a phase their going through. Their children
    have been going through phases of one sort or another for 12 years.
    

    dave <who would like to continue this but got to go>
    .

    re .33
    
    I have a friend who does the same yelling routine.  The USUAL way
    she addresses her children is a bellow, so she shouldn't be surprised
    when they don't react.  
    
    I have a concern about the way the word "discipline" is being bandied
    about.  Admittedly one definition (and the most commonly accepted
    one) is "punishment used to obtain desired behavior".   But a broader
    definition includes the concept of developing a set of rules and
    training a child to live within them.  Too many parents think
    "discipline" is something that comes after the fact of bad behavior,
    instead of something that should be learned prior to the fact of
    ANY behavior.  
    
    Rather an idealistic way of looking at things, I guess, but I can't
    help myself
    
    Gloria

    dave,
    I do have one child, I can see where more than one would be a harder
    issue to deal with without respect for others.  I was raised in
    a family of 6 children.  We argued and fought too, but without 
    screaming and bodily harm.  A disagreement between sibilings that
    is loud and physical is not only infringing on the rights of the
    participants, but anyone in the vacinity.  If the situation calls
    for anger, I don't think there is a problem with expressing that
    anger in a nonviolent manner without shouting.  It becomes harder
    in later life for a child who has always been allowed to express
    themselves without self control to accept that same behavior not
    being acceptable anywhere else in the world. (did that come out
    right???)  It seems to me that what is learned in childhood as
    acceptable, nonrespect, screaming violent behavior, constant
    questioning and argueing on boring chores, could and will create
    unrealistic expectations of what they can get away with in normal
    work or life situations.  I can't see myself being around many of
    todays children when they are adults.  They would not be able to
    accept constructive critisism, deal with frustrations without harming
    themselves or anyone close by, or carry on a rational discussion
    without trying to outscream any opposition.  I still think it boils
    down to respect of others.  If they are brought up to feel that
    their rights come before anyone elses, the selfish results are very
    scary.  I feel sorry for any parent who has to constantly justify
    every request made.  Children have rights too, but we as parents
    have to make sure that their rights do not infringe on the rights
    of anyone around them, in public or private.  
    
    vivian

    Just as with adult friends, I think there is a subtle kind of
    non-sexual attraction that we have for some children but do not
    have for others.  Their behavior is a factor, but their personalities
    and interests also enter in.
    
    When I was little, adults felt free to set limits --
    
    -It's the adults time to (talk, eat, have the living room)
    
    -The grownups are going to have a conversation.  The children can
    stay if they are quiet and want to listen, but will have to leave
    if they disrupt it.
    
    -Tomorrow we will go to the zoo, tonight you have to let Mom and
    Dad talk quietly.
     
    -We have played with you all day, now it's time for you to do something
    on your own.
    
    ...
    
    My friends and I didn't question their right to do this!  It happened
    in everyone's home, and we respected it.  (I'm sure I complained,
    but I complained knowing that I would lose!)
    
    One of my pet peeves is children who expect undivided adult attention.
    (I'm not talking about a sick child or a child in pain.)
    
    I have been around children and their parents where the children
    had the right to interrupt, raise hell, and nag their parents to
    leave until the parents did so.  The children knew that they had
    the control.  I hate being with people whose children are like this.
    If I go to spend an hour with a friend, I expect her to set some
    limits with her kids during that hour.  And another time we will
    do something that includes the children, because I like them too,
    but sometimes I want to have a conversation with their mom where
    two consecutive thoughts are possible! 
    
    I think that kids who have (and expect) this kind of attention and
    control make themselves very unpopular with other adults.  I can
    imagine other adults not wanting to see their parents unless the
    children are asleep or away!  Who does this benefit?   It seems
    better to me to set limits, and be welcome!  
    
    I was an only child, and I had my moments of being a holy terror.
    I remember, though, that we used to visit my parents' adult friends
    where there were no children in the house.  On those occasions my
    mom and I would pack a toy/book bag for me to take along.  That
    made such a difference, and allowed me to have a resource when things
    got boring as they always did.  I was too little to know that I
    needed to plan ahead for things like that.  Yet I've heard friends
    of mine ask very young children to get their things together for
    an event like that.  Sometimes the kids just fall apart--especially
    if they don't have enough  of a handle on time yet to help them 
    understand a contingency plan!        
    
    This kind of philosophizing is easy enough for a non-parent...I
    really do admire all of you who do it day in and day out.  What
    an amazing commitment.  I get edgy making a commitment to a project
    that will take me one year!

    Whew! Finally made it through the whole darn topic. There was a
    net discussion on something like this right before the holidays,
    and it really helped me. Basically, I never cared much for kids.
    When I was one, I didn't feel like "one of them" (I felt like a
    child, but not like I was a peer with other children). I never caught
    on to how to interact with one. I never could tell if there were
    things we would both enjoy doing/talking about. Holidays are the
    only time this matters. I do believe children are important to the
    future, so why can't I interact with them in a positive manner?
    
    Well, the woman who initiated the discussion said that she likes
    to have her child around her, and that she feels that adults give
    a child *less* consideration than they give another adult. That
    got me thinking. I pay very close attention to how other adults
    are interacting; why couldn't I for kids? No more, and no less.
    The long and short of it is, I got along much better with the child
    relatives this time around. And felt I enjoyed and benefitted from
    it.
    
    Some folks have mentioned not enjoying hold the little blobs. I
    have always felt like this too. However, I recently became a godmom.
    My friend has been encouraging me to hold Tim any time I'm around.
    And I know realize why. Holding the darn kid all the time (which
    is what the parents have to do) is tiring, physically and emotionally.
    You keep the kid quiet, entertained, and cuddled. It doesn't take
    *all* your resources, but some. She's just glad to have someone
    give her a break. That, I can deal with.
    
    Someone also mentioned taking apart toys. Granted, kids should never
    do that to someone else's toys. Sherry Turkle (at MIT) did a fair
    amount of research into computer people and engineers, to figure
    out what makes them what they are. One of the things the majority
    of engineers did as kids was take things apart and put them back
    together. And most engineers had stories of how they caugth h*ll
    for taking something apart and not being able to put it together,
    when it wasn't theirs.
    	Mez

Kids!  I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!  Who can understand anything they say!

Kids!  They are disrespectful, disobedient oafs!
?, crazy, sloppy lazy loafers!  And while we're on the subject..

Kids!  You can talk and talk 'til your face is blue!
Kids!  But they still do just want they want to do!!

Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way...

Well, you get the idea.  And that was written in 1961, I believe (no one
test me on it -- I wouldn't risk a paycheck that the date was right)...

Each and every one of you has a very valid point!  I can't stand alot of
kids I run into nowadays!!!!  I have a nephew I'd just as soon jam into
the trash compactor!!  But the other 3 boys are gems!  The 2 girls are
as well....  

But, you know something?? This is not new.... Remember Mr. Wilson from
DENNIS THE MENACE?  Lord, how he hated kids (in general).  But Dennis
was loud and obnoxious (at times) and troublesome and curious...
He was occasionally ill-mannered and could justify punching an adult in
the stomach.

And Margaret was so well-mannered to adults, but pure poison to another
kid (and didn't we all DESPISE Margaret?).

Kids are kids.  Genetically, they are without manners, boisterous,
and difficult.  They're SUPPOSED to be that way!! And even the BEST
parent can't monitor his kid's activities 24 hours a day!!  How can
you suppress that energy?  It EXPLODES in spontaneity and forgetfulness
and running in the hallway and talking in a restaurant!  Good parents
try to help their child LEARN to curb their excesses.... Busy parents
sometimes don't notice, or are more forgiving...

I don't suppose it shows, but I love kids.  I love just about anyone's
kids.  I love Jon, the 6 year-old destined for a ride in the trash
compactor.  I don't LIKE him sometimes, but.... His parents usually
interfere with my ability to reach this kid.  He's always been a
difficult child and they pretty much give him anything he wants to
keep peace.  Jon doesn't get that from me, but nowadays, I have more
energy than they do.

I guess putting all the socioeconomic issues aside, we have a great deal
in common with these 'monsters' of today.... we were the 'monsters'
of yesterday, and as I remember, there were lots of people around to
grouse at what 'bad kids' we were.

We weren't -- my Dad was strict and 15 whacks with a belt was standard
for not eating your veggies, as it was for bad grades and making noise
outside on a Sunday.

But we were to someone... Poor Mrs. Perrin got her lovely bleeding hearts
shredded with the advent of each Spring (Flowers to give to Mom!).  
Elderly Mr. Damiano, who's only
request was that we TELL him the Frisbee went into his garden so he
could get it for us, got an occasional tomato plant trampled because
we were heartsick about bothering the poor guy every 5 minutes when
the Frisbee got away from us.  Somehow we didn't worry about his tomato
plants... We didn't KNOW we should worry about his tomato plants -- they're
only weeds... or something!!!

I can get furious at a child for being rude, and I can spank one for
insolence (I have spanking privs with my 6 nieces and nephews because
I'm Number One Babysitter) or nastiness.... but deep down I know it's
all superficial because

		they're just kids!!!!

They're not small adults.....  And I have a hard time with holding them
all responsible for each other...

And as for parents, I'll pass judgement on them AFTER I've been driven
to tears of fury by a child who won't potty train, or had a child
who is hyperactive 24 hours a day, or screams "NO!" at me constantly.

My turn is coming.... I need my cool....

Karen

    One my my greatest pleasures was watching my fifth and sixth graders
    put on a production of Bye Bye Birdie and sing that song "Kids!".
    I hoped they appreciated the ironies...

    My oldest son played the father in Bye Bye Birdie last year and
    very much enjoyed the ironies of the song as he sang it!

    
                 I OBJECT TO BEING CALLED LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS
    
    
          ...but not enough to justify punching you in the stomach.
    
    
    

    
    (I will try this again.)
    
    I have a soft spot in my heart for the Brats of the world - for
    I was (am) one.
    
    Both of my children have been terrible and wonderful.  If they turn
    out wonderful it will be in spite of me and society's best intentions.
    I have hope in the future because of the children and can stand
    even the "sweetest" of them most of the time.
    
    		_peggy
    

    
    I found it difficult to take my son out to eat when he was in the
    "just learning to eat stage" children have to explore. Now he is
    21 months old and is no problem to me or others, I can only hope
    he stays this way.
    
    re.0
    I suggest that if you want a nice dinner out with your daughter
    you stay away from Family Restaurents.
    
    Let us not forget that we were once children and not as perfect
    as some wished us to be, but thats life.
                                           Cathy
    

    
    Frankly kids eating out at any age can end up being either
    a laugh-riot or a nightmare. I try to opt for the laughs
    when I can. Best example: my son (4) accidentally hits fork
    in crowded pancake house during breakfast. Fork tumbles upward
    into air & now becomes dangerous projectile. Dad lunges, spills
    hot coffee, cries out in pain, catches fork, saves child, but 
    draws 100 stares. Dad hands fork to son & sez "Keep practicing."        
                                                      
    Our daughter (1) wears her food. We call it "moussing" and on
    occasion help her style her hair into an Alf-Alfa like spike.
    We could get bent out of shape but it would do no good.
    
    As for other children, we reserve judgement only because it
    could be us the next time. The darling little time bomb might
    decide to grab a high note & hold it for 3 hours in a super-
    market or a mall, & the more you fuss the louder it gets. We
    take pity on the parents of small children...

    When I was of pre-school age my parents did not take me to restaurants:
    it simply was not "the form". If we were staying in a hotel I ate in
    my room (with my nanny).
    
    Once school (boarding school) had instilled proper manners in me, I
    was allowed to accompany my parents to restaurants...
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    PS a previous note said "I have a soft spot for children" -- so do I,
    it's a bog in Killarny
    
    

    
    
    Sometimes my soft spot is on the moon. :^)
    
    But over all I do try to remember what I was like as a child
    and respond to troublesome children as I would have like to be
    treated.
    
    "Big Green Mother from Outer Space."
    
    _peggy
    

    I personally like kids, good or bad just like adults. kids like
    adults have degrees of moods and behavior patterns.
    
    RE .10 in regards to Single mothers not having enough energy to
           discipline kits due to that fact that they work thus creating
           brattiness in kids of today.
    
    Personally as a single parent "FLAME ON" I getting sick and tired
    of hearing the problems of the kids behaviors attributed to the
    fact that they are raised in single family households.  Not all
    single family households produce deviant kids (sp?)...  I for one
    have raised my son (13yrs old) alone for 10 years and he is and
    has always been very well disciplined.  Not only is he a joy to
    be around (this is from other people) but he's also extremely bright.
    He's recieved 90% scholarship to one of the best privates schools
    in the area as well as other Very Private schools who are very anxious
    to have him attend their schools as well.  He's opt to stay at the
    present school thur high school.  He knows what he wants to be and
    is aiming for it.  
    
    This is only one example, There are many more which I wont bother
    to list of other Single Parents raising their kids right and also
    hell of a lot better than some or many two parent families.
    
    

    There is no clear yes or no.  If the child is parented by the new
    free expression theory, chances are  I won't want to be in their
    company. I have had it with parents who feel the child should "express
    themselves at all times."  Part of parenting is to discipline (not
    punish) our children.  Definition of discipline--Training intended
    to produce a specified character or pattern of behavior. I do not
    enjoy going to a resturant, supermarket, church, or any other public
    place to be annoyed by some totally undiscipline child, while the
    parent stands by with that (isn't she/he cute smile).
    
    These same parents must think the public is really stupid if they
    think that when we see one of the screaming tantrums, that we believe
    this is the first time it has happened. The child has to be taught
    that certain behavior is acceptable. 
    
    I have also been in the company of some delightful children.
    Unfortunatly there have been fewer of these.  
    
    I am a single parent and have been for over 18 years.  It is not
    the number of parents it's the quality of parenting that is important.
    My children are young adults now, but they have always complimented
    on there behavior. 

    Whew....What a great topic........long, but interesting!
    You know its sad to read so many responces from people who just
    don't like kids. 
    I have two sons and I have to be honest, somedays I am so grateful
    and full of love for them its a true "blessing"
    And some days.....................@##@!*%^&%$#!!!
    		But thats all part of life. 
    Believe me, there are some so called "Adults" that are so rude 
     overbearing and obnoxious - I can't stand to be around
    them!!!
    
    A child is born pure, innocent, and blind to the prejudice of mankind.
    ( and yes they are very demanding little"blobs", again part of life)
    Its the parents who should provide the guidance, structure and most
    of all LOVE that any child needs. (Even the bratty ones who are
    sometime hard to take.) 
  		  Re-156.23 really said it all!!
    The children of today are the future.....Billy Holiday said it all
    "God Bless the child"

    DID I SAY 156.23 SORRY,
    
    	TRY 156.43!!!!!
    

    
    I find this topic intriguing and quite complex.  My personal feelings
    are that my preference for children depends on how I feel about
    them as individuals, reacting to them as children, not adults.
    
    I was originally attracted to the topic, and read all the responses
    because of the baby/blob issue.  I am another one who really dislikes
    holding drooling, smelly babies and dislike even more making sounds
    and goo-goo talk to them.  If the parent said "I've been holding
    the baby for the last hour, want to spell me?", I'd be more willing
    to take the tyke on out of empathy, but I am annoyed by parents
    who insist upon thrusting the little darling into your arms.  I
    usually talk to them in my usual tone of voice, because I am more
    comfortable that way.  Then the baby can loosen up and feel me relax.
    Personally, if I were a baby, I'd be quite frightened by having
    a large head making loud, vaguely animal sounds in my face.  
    
    I guess I feel this way about holding babies because as a child
    I hated being held and fussed over and kissed.  Anyway, just another
    viewpoint for this excellent topic.
    
    Ann

    This may sound cold but when we go into restaurants, we ask for
    the non-smoking and non-kid section!  Even in 'nice' non-family
    type resaurants you find kids...it's like you can't get away from
    them.  And I pity the poor parents with rowdy kids, they usually
    look so dragged out and ready to kill (if it was socially acceptable).
    
    When I read this topic, in my mind came two families with kids that
    are close friends.  One has the 'perfect' kids, no yelling, screaming,
    wanting attention.  When the parents speak to the kids, there is
    no yelling and what is said by the parents, goes...no back-talk.
    On the other hand is the exact opposite!  You can't get a moments
    peace in their house.  It's like night and day!  And I don't believe
    in 'kids are hyperactive and have so much energy'.  How does that
    explain the 1st family I mentioned.  They have got to be the most
    relaxed, laid back, happy and loving family (with kids) we know.
    
    Kids have a time and place in my book.  When I acted up in public,
    I was told to go sit in the car or keep quiet and respect my
    surroundings.  Too bad there isn't more of that today.  <flame on>
    But the courts have gotten wacky with letting kids sue parents!
    And parents are afraid to touch their kids.<flame off>  My parents 
    occasionally had to spank us or discipline us in some fashion, but 
    it is like most of the time nowadays, discipline took a back seat 
    to letting Johnny do his thing.  It's sad.  (I'm not picking on
    all kids, just the misbehaving, noisy brats.)  If the shoe fits,
    wear it.
                                        

    Well, it's a confusing topic these days (discipline).
    
    I have two children.  My oldest is a very strong willed child; my
    youngest is easy going.  Disciplining the older child requires alot
    more energy.  My personal philosophy is not to use corporal punishment
    (spanking or hitting), which means alot more thought has to go into
    her discipline.
    
    She's a great child...will probably be a corporate president someday
    (her teacher tells me she demonstrates great leadership qualities!),
    but oh...I do get tired some days!  Establishing the boundaries and
    enforcing them is sometimes a real chore with strong willed children.
    She was one of those children that annoyed people in resturants
    when she was younger.  She'll be 10 years old next month, and it
    is considerably different today.  We can take her and my son out
    in public now and they behave beautifully (this is not always the
    case within the confines of our own home though!).
    
    And...there are so many professionals who view raising children
    in very different ways.  So...you read the different books available
    on child rearing...choose the philosophies that seem to set well
    with you...do the best you can... and hope they (the children) will
    turn out to be responsible adults without hating you (the parents)
    for not doing everything correctly.
    
    Just some rambling thoughts from a tired Mom who loves her "strong
    willed" and "easy going" children.
    
    ap
    
    

    Throughout (well, history, probably) there have been parents who
    use corporal punishment and parents who don't. The type of punishment
    is irrelevant.
    
    The point is: does the kid have to "pay the price" for acting
    unsociably or not. If not, the kid continues to act that way. IT
    is *much* easier to threaten ("Do that once more, Griselda, and
    you're grounded!") than to actually *ground* the kid and make it
    stick. A parent will probably spend 2 hours per day going through
    the process of making the grounding stick, in one way or another.
    For some people, it is much easier to let the kid get away with
    it. Hell, it's *always* easier to let the kid get away with it!
    Some parents just realize that the easy way ain't always the best.
    
    (Then, of course, we have the folks who are gonna let the public
    schools take care of raising the kid - but that's another story.
    And one of my hot buttons. I'll spare you. This time. :-}    )
    
    These are the parents whose kids get to 13, 16, 23 and are so
    completely unsocialized as to be obnoxious. And the parents look
    at you [teacher, social worker, irate fellow diner] and say
    "I just can't do *anything* with him/her. Strong-willed, you know."
    
    BULLCOOKIES!
    
    Dawn
    

    My college roommate got married right after graduation.  Her husband
    was in the Navy, and they lived all over the world for several years.
    About 8 years after graduation, they moved to the town I was then
    living in with my then husband.  They had two children I had never
    seen, a girl 6 and a boy 2.  We invited them over to the house, and I
    INSISTED (me and my big mouth) that she bring the kids so I could meet
    them.  She warned me that both of them had been diagnosed as
    hyperactive and were real little hellions, and I'd be sorry -- but
    noooooo -- I insisted! 
    
    Well, those kids proceeded to make every attempt to destroy everything
    we had.  I'm not talking normal misbehaving; I'm talking destruction.
    After the 2-year-old broke a glass by throwing it at his Dad and
    hitting my wall, Dad commented "We never TELL our children to do
    anything; we ASK them."  In that case, I guess I have only myself to
    blame because my roommate TOLD me I really didn't want those kids in my
    house, and I insisted she bring them.  A couple of weeks later, they
    reciprocated, and we visited their house. A brand new house.  Those
    kids had nearly destroyed it.  I mean, wallpaper ripped off the wall,
    an iron-sized black burn in the carpet -- I couldn't believe people
    really lived that way!  Needless to say, that was the end of our social
    relationship with that family. 
    
    I really have only one major pet peeve with other people's kids. My
    husband and I have no children.  When we invite another couple over to
    the house for dinner, I always state their names in the invitation;
    e.g., "would you and John like to come over Saturday night?"  That's
    too subtle for many people.  If I'm lucky, they immediately ask "Should
    we bring the kids?"  I find it uncomfortable to have to explicitly
    exclude the children, but I do.  When I'm not so lucky, they just show
    up with the entire family.  If I want the kids to come, I will invite
    them.  If I don't invite them, then the assumption should be that they
    are not invited.  Period. 
    
    At the risk of sounding too harsh, there ARE children I enjoy being
    around.  There are two next door, ages 6 and 8, who are welcome
    at our house anytime.  They come over often to play with our dogs
    (but ALWAYS ask permission first), and I can't remember being around
    two nicer children.
    
    What makes the difference?  Beats me -- I'm not a mother, and my
    opinions on child rearing have no credibility whatsoever.  All I
    know is there are vast differences in the way children behave, and
    I don't believe for one minute it's all in their chemistry!
    
    							Pat

    hmmm
    
    I would disagree with the idea that corporeal punishment is needed
    when raising a child.  While I am not a mother, my youngest sister
    was born when I was 17 and I got to see much of her rearing even
    when I had left for college.
    
    She was no more and no less "inately bratty" than most kids, but
    her behavior outside the family was excellent (ignoring the one
    time she stripped off all her clothes in the supermarket) -- she
    would do something wrong like that or a tantrum ONCE, be punished,
    and never do it again.  
    
    It is _how_ you _apply_ the punishment not what _form_ of punishment
    you use.

    Lee

    I fear I opened a can of worms.  To clarify....I do not support
    destructive behavior in children.  My reference to my child annoying
    people in resturants was based on the fact that when she did misbehave,
    it did not go unnoticed.  She was punished.  It was the original 
    misbehavior that annoyed the diners (and understandably so).  I'm also 
    referring back to a time during the toddler years, when teaching
    children 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' behavior occurs.

    Also, I believe it's not only how you apply the punishment, it is 
    the consistency in which it is applied.
    
    I realize there are those who do not believe there is such a thing
    as a "strong willed" child.  I, however, do believe in it (having
    been in the position to raise one).  The parent is "weak" only when
    they choose no form of discipline, or remain inconsistent.  
    
    Only my thoughts based on my experiences in live.  BTW...children
    breaking objects or being destructive have possibly little to
    do with the innate temperment (personality) of the child...maybe
    it has to do with their established boundaries.  Perhaps we all agree there
    is certain behavior by children (as well as adults) which is deemed
    inappropriate and which requires disciplinary action (determined
    by each individual family unit).

    Oh well...I find myself rambling more and more these days :^)
    
    ap    
    

    I think that there is such a think as a stubborn/strong-willed child.
    My sister was one. She is two years older than I but I very vividly
    remember the days when we were kids.  She was quite distructive, by
    that I mean that she use to finds ways and  means of bending iron!
    Sometimes my mon caught her red-handed and would spank her.  Now if my
    sister happened to have the iron in her hand, no amount of spanking
    would get her to let go of the iron.  She would cry and scream but
    never let go. At that point what was my mother suppose to do? Beat her
    until she was bruised? 
    
    In general she was well behaved...
        
    My sister is still this way.  She would still stand up for her beliefs
    however stupid they may be, and there is little one can do legally
    to get her to  give in..   

    Oh, I don't doubt for a minute that there is such a thing as a
    strong-willed child.  My sister was like that, and I have thought
    many times about the pain my mother must have felt.  I've seen my
    sister at about age 3 or 4 stand facing my mother with an angry
    look on her face and say "Go ahead, hit me, I don't care, I'm not
    sorry and nothing you can do will make me sorry."  She meant every
    word of it.  I don't believe any discipline, no matter how severe
    (including abuse) would have changed that attitude.
    
    RE corporal punishment.  I'm not a mother, so can't speak from
    experience.  I imagine hitting your child would be a very hard thing to
    do.  But we were raised WITH corporal punishment.  Our home was very
    loving, and I have wonderful memories of my mother and father.  I never
    doubted their love, and, well, if I ever had children I would hope I
    could give them as much love as we got.  But, that didn't mean we
    didn't get spanked.  And not just with the hand.  The very worst part
    of the punishment, far, far worse than the actual whipping, was being
    sent into the back yard to fetch a switch.  If I brought one back too
    small, I was sent back for a larger one.  When I produced one that was
    satisfactory, Mother proceeded to whip me with it.  I can remember
    having welts on the back of my legs.  While I wasn't exactly thrilled
    with it at the time, I now see the value of what she did and feel it
    was the right thing to do.  In no way would I consider myself an abused
    child; if anything my parents loved us too much for their OWN good,
    sacrificing many things they could have enjoyed in life to expend most
    of their time and energy on their children. 
    
    I agree that today many parents are afraid to discipline their children
    for fear of being accused of abuse.  While true child abuse is
    something that makes me shudder, I think it's sad that loving parents
    have to worry about unjust accusations when their kids NEED discipline.
    
    						Pat

    
    RE: .69    I have to totally agree with that.  Discipline is
               necessary (the extent depends on the incident).
    
               I don't want my kids in corrections hall or prison
               cause I was afraid of making their behind a little red,
               or taking away some privilege.  We have to be willing
               to teach right and wrong, I'm not leaving it up to
               anyone else.
                                                        
                                                 Mark

RE: .-1
    
    Is corporal punishment more barbaric than the sort of behaviour
    described in .64?

    							Pat

    	In some cases yes.  Especially when you are talking about an
    	adult's behavior vs. the behavior of a 2 and 6 year old.  I
    	think you have to pay attention to your child's temperament,
    	and not just do whatever your parents did to you.  Some children
    	are very sensitive and just knowing that the parents are
        displeased is enough ( I was one of those ).  On the other hand some
    	kids may take the spankings quite stoically.  It is probably
    	better to hit a kid, than denigrating them, or instilling all 
    	sorts of guilt.
    	  Linda

>  < Note 156.73 by LIONEL::SAISI "a" >


>    	kids may take the spankings quite stoically.  It is probably
>    	better to hit a kid, than denigrating them, or instilling all 
>    	sorts of guilt.
>    	  Linda

	I have to disagree here.  Hitting a kid is not the answer.
	There are many ways of getting the popint across than hitting
	them.  Having a chair, known as "The Chair".  A friend of mine
	runs a daycare, and she enrolls many kids whose parents work for
	DEC, and people that I went to school with.  They use the Chair
	routine.  The know the chair is a place for being bad, and it
	is quite embarassing for them to be in that chair when they
	are in front of their friends. And yes there are some that will
	be bad, just for the attention.  I am a FIRM believer, in NOT
	hitting children. But, then that's just my opinion.


			Micheal

    
    I think a lot of the Psych. research being done with children suggests
    that hitting does not improve behavior.  In fact, it may make the
    child's behavior worse.
    
    But I'm not a parent, and I can't possibly speak to the decisions
    parents make at the moment, so I'm trying to avoid passing judgement.
    I can speak, however, to my experiences as a child.  I was not
    physically abused (no bruises, broken bones, etc.), but I was "spanked"
    occasionally.  I cannot remember why I was spanked, but I can remember
    my father's anger, the physical pain, and the humiliation that I
    felt.   I still feel anger toward him when I think about it.  I
    realize that parents have to make difficult choices sometimes, but
    in my heart I feel that no one has the right to hit anyone else.
    If I ever take part in raising a child, I hope that I could live
    up to that belief.
    
    Justine

    
    To discipline my nephews, my brother-in-law would make them listen
    to a 2 hour record set on how a young man should conduct himself,
    and would quiz them afterwards.  After a few months of this, they
    began to beg to be SPANKED, knowing that it would only last a few
    seconds and they could be on their way again.  
    
    As for knowing why you are being spanked, an ex-roomate (and single
    parent) had an agreement with her daughter about disobedience. 
    If the child was told three times (gave space for a legitimate "I
    forgot!"), and still didn't comply, she knew what to expect.  Before
    each spanking (which were very few and far between), the child's
    mom would ask her if she knew why she was being spanked, and she
    always answered "for being disobedient", with no prompting (Child,
    age 4).

    RE: spanking/no spanking
    
    Acouple of thoughts... First, if I remember the research/anecdotal
    stuff correctly, different kids respond to different punishments.
    The trick is to find what works with the kid in question. (Maybe
    the 13-year-old hacker doesn't give 2 hoots about being grounded,
    since she can stay in her room and break into VMS systems all night.
    :-)  )
    
    I, too, am not a parent so maybe not the best to judge, but I think
    there may indeed be times when the most direct route is the most
    necessary. You simply *cannot* reason with kids who are too young
    to understand what your point is, and for youngsters (and adults,
    for that matter) the most efficient communication is thru the skin.
    Touch somebody, and you have their attention. (Do I need a disclaimer
    that I am not advocating beating the crap out of a kid?)
    
    *I* was spanked. Not often. Once for running up the (very busy)
    street - in the middle. I don't think it warped me. [now, now,
    be kind :-)]
    
    Just my 3.5c
    
    --DE
    

	Gale,

	I've dated women, who have  children, and I see how 
	each mother has dealt with each problem.

	Spanking a child, is abuse.  Spanking a child does not
	mean you love them either.  Spanking a child induces
	a fear, not a fear of spanking from doing something
	wrong, but a fear from the parents. Raise a hand to
	a child that is spanked often, what;s the first reaction,
	the child starts to raise his hands or peel away for
	defense.  

	What happens if the spanking doesn't work, what then,
	hit them with a stick to make it hurt more ??? Then what
	if that doesn;t work, hit them in the face.....

	I did a paper for my psych class in school, and I did it
	on CHild Abuse.  I spent alot of time with the Welfare Dept.
	on the State Level.  You'd be shocked to hear some of the
	stories that I heard.  It taught me alot. 

	I don't think Behavior has to do with spanking....It has to do
	with DAY #1, when you are born.  Do you get away with things
	up until a certain age, I didn't, I was spanked as a kid,
	many a time, (I was a little rebel you might say)....Spanking 
	didn't stop me, from doing anything, but I leanred what was right
	and wrong, from someone telling me what was right, and wrong.

		Everyone has their own opinion, but I wish I 
	could know the history of every child abuse case, and evolve back
	and see how it started, maybe from a simple spanking 8 generations
	ago....maybe not....

>	I don't think Behavior has to do with spanking....It has to do
>	with DAY #1, when you are born.  Do you get away with things
>	up until a certain age, I didn't, I was spanked as a kid,
>	many a time, (I was a little rebel you might say)....Spanking 
>	didn't stop me, from doing anything, but I leanred what was right
>	and wrong, from someone telling me what was right, and wrong.

	I goofed on the above paragraph.  It should read:


	I don't think Behavior has to do with spanking....It has to do
	with DAY #1, when you are born.  Do you get away with things
	up until a certain age, I didn't.  I learned what no was
	very quickly. But, I was spanked as a kid, many a time, 
	(I was a little rebel you might say)....Spanking didn't stop me, 
	from doing anything, but I leanred what was right and wrong, from 
	someone telling me what was right, and wrong.


		Micheal

    Gale, 
    
    You may not be aware of this, but the message you seem to be sending in
    your notes about spanking children is "This is the right way. No other
    way works." When looked at that way, they sound patronizing and take on
    a certain morally superior tone. I'm sure you're aware that there are
    plenty of ways to raise a pleasant child. Not all of them involve your
    method. 
    
    Liz

    I think one problem with spanking is that parents start late. When
    the child is 1-2 the offense is 'cute'. Then it gets tiresome. But
    the child is not stopped soon enough. The parent waits til (s)he
    can't stand it any longer, then over reacts. Abuse instead of 
    simple spanking. The sooner a child is discouraged from mis-behaving,
    the less spanking will ever be needed. One swat the first offense,
    two for the second, three for the third. Most kids will never need
    four swats to figure out "behavior X gets me swatted". 
    
    An excellent discussion on this subject can be found in (of all
    places) "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein.
    
    Dana

    I am a mother of four and grandmother of two.  Spanking is not
    necessary and spanking many times only changes the child while they
    are in the presence of the adult who administers the punishment.
    
    These comments remind me of the rivalries women had when I was raising
    children.  Some women were so egotistical about their child rearing
    skills and their status in the neighborhood was based on their
    children's behavior.  
    
    Unfortunately the real test for me was between the ages of fourteen
    and eighteen.  Those were the roughest times...when one couldn't
    spank and punishments had to be administered with consistency and
    a very strong will.
    
    I find as I come in contact with the young adults that I knew as
    children that the most interesting, the most successful and some
    of the most creative were not exemplary children.  I have also observed
    that many well behaved children have had problems with making decisions
    and dealing with life in general.  
    
    I am very sympathetic to the development process especially when
    I reminisce about my own childhood and that of my own children.
    Creativity, imagination and initiative are difficult to develop
    in the context of a 'perfect' child.  And yet these are so important
    in the achievers of this world.

    
    
    Gale,
    
    I don't think Liz was really responding to the content of your notes
    (though I suspect you have different ideas about raising children)
    but to the _This_is_THE_Way_it_is manner in which you expressed
    your ideas.  I think she made the "assumption" that once this was
    pointed out to you, you would step back a little bit.  
    
    I've known some wonderfully behaved children whose parents never
    spanked them.  Spanking may work for you, but I, too, take offense
    at your suggestion that if you don't spank your kids, they will
    be brats.
    
    Justine
                      

    re .86
    
    Agreed.  Gale, if you disagree on this issue and feel unable to
    grant that the other might have some truth (I feeling I know well
    -- replay the run-ins I have had regarding violence in general),
    how about agreeing to disagree with us on that one idea?
    
    After all, you have made your point, and others have made theirs,
    so y'all should cut your (our) losses and end the war, eh?
    
    Lee

    
    Now I know why I seldom read this file....why the problem
    with stating what one person feels is right??  And letting
    other people state what works for them??  We could argue
    from now til doomsday who's "right"....Gale, I too, am a 
    single mother, have raised my 2 teenage daughters from the
    time they were 1 and 3 years old and they are not 14 and 16
    all by myself with no support (financial or emotional) from
    their father.  I don't believe in spanking.  And have had 
    other "non-parenting adults" tell me that my children are
    very well behaved, polite and considerate.  I have *proof*
    that there are alternatives to spanking children.  Someone
    else said it earlier...the key is finding what works for 
    your child.  For my youngest, sending her to her room as 
    punishment is not punishment.  She would be quite content
    there listening to her music.  So I take away privileges
    that I know are important to her!  
    
    I was spanked a lot as a child and it took years to get over
    the resentment and hatred that I felt toward my parents for 
    this.  It did nothing to make me a "better" child either!  
    
    Myra

    The last time I spanked my son was when he was a year and half.
    He is now 16, and most people consider him a nice person. The event
    traumatized me enough that it still stands out vividly in my memory.
    Writing this note still evokes those funny feelings in my stomach.
    
    The basic situation was that he took off across the street by himself.
    When I got over to the other side, after the truck passed by, I
    spanked him right there on the sidewalk. I must have swatted him
    a half dozen times and yelled NO!, NO!, NO! with each swat.
    
    I don't think I hurt him very much (phsically) through the layers
    of clothing and diapers. However, it was clear to him that his father
    was quite upset.
    
    It was probably 7 or 8 years before he would cross a street without
    having an automatic reflex to reach out for a hand to hold.
    
    It's my opinion (Your mileage may vary.) that is OK to spank a child
    to prevent life threatening behaviors when the child is not capable
    of understanding the words you say or the consequences of those
    actions.
    
    To answer the main question in this thread: some children are fun
    to be around and some are not.
    
    PK
    

  > *I* was spanked. Not often. Once for running up the (very busy)
  > street - in the middle. I don't think it warped me. [now, now,
  > be kind :-)]

    I can identify with that!  The worst spanking I ever got was for
    suddenly dis-engaging my hand from my mother's and running out into the
    street in front of a speeding (siren going) fire truck.  I wanted to be
    able to see it better!  I remember it well because Mother was in tears
    when she administered the punishment -- it was the worst scare of her
    life!  It was years later when I understood why she was crying as
    she spanked me.
    
    I am very glad now that my mother punished me severely enough to make
    me remember for the rest of my life how closely I came to getting
    killed that day! 
    
  > Spanking a child induces a fear, not a fear of spanking from
  > doing something wrong, but a fear from the parents.
    
    As an adult whose parents spanked me occasionally when I was a child, I
    can positively state that the above statement is false.  I'm sure
    it's true for some, but stated as a gross generalization and applied
    to everyone as it was above, it is false.  I, along with many, many
    others, am a living exception that proves it.
    
    							Pat

re .0, Vivien

More often than not I'd have to admit that I DO NOT like being around
children.  I personally have a difficult time blocking out NOISE distractions,
and let's face it, a lot of the kids today are loud and noisy.  I've tried
very hard to become more 'tolerant'.. but I'm not having great success.

I also wonder if I'm not overly sensitive and particularly negative because
as a former public school teacher who has always been single, I've had to
deal with OTHER people's children... never my own (including helping to
raise my neice and nephew)!?

This *very touchy subject* is causing me a lot of pain right now, in my
current relationship... because my SO is a divorced father who has his
children 3 out of 4 weekends per month... and I'm not too wildly fond
of our weekend activities revolving around the little ones. (sigh)

Just as an aside... I'm relatively new to WOMANNOTES... have done mostly
read_only_every_once_in_a_while... and am surprised to see that the
majority of notes/replys to this topic don't necessarily answer the intial
topic question posed!  It seems to me that the replys have shifted to
folks' philosophical views on discipline... 'to spank or not to spank'...
are the moderators perhaps too busy/caught up with the 'debate' issues
around FWO or FMO to move/shift a few notes here?

Penny

    
>> Spanking a child induces a fear, not a fear of spanking from
>> doing something wrong, but a fear from the parents.
    
>    As an adult whose parents spanked me occasionally when I was a child, I
>    can positively state that the above statement is false.  I'm sure
>    it's true for some, but stated as a gross generalization and applied
>    to everyone as it was above, it is false.  I, along with many, many
>    others, am a living exception that proves it.
    
>    							Pat

	First of all, you read a little too deep, that I was making a gross
	generalization. Second, Because you along with many, many others
	are living proofs, are a living exception.  Can you account for
	everyone else in the world ???? 

	
	If everyone knows so much about everything why don't you run for
	the presidency of the US !!!!!

			Micheal

re: -1

>    and let's face it, a lot of the kids today are loud and noisy.  

Kids have ALWAYS been loud and noisy!  It's part of being a 
kid...but kids are not loud and noisy all the time.  Believe it 
or not, kids do find *quiet* time to be comforting and balancing, 
and they DO need it every once in a while.

I'm the mother of four but I can't say that I like to be around
kids all the time.  On the contrary, I think I'd go nuts!  But I 
find there's a strange phenomenon that occurs when I am with the 
kids:

If I am calm and cheerful, they tend to be.

When I am cross, impatient, and in thoroughly bad temper, they 
also tend to be.

The trick is to recognize that one is in a bad mood and that, 
like a virus, a bad mood can spread.  If you can exercise a bit 
of mind control over yourself (and I don't say this works for me 
all the time), you can also help your kids get their bad moods 
under control.  

My 7 year old and I have a joke about that.  He was really
whining and complaining one evening.  *Everything* was going
wrong for him! (kids are so absolute!)  I told him -- sotto voce
-- that I had a special secret for him.  I told him that he had
the power, inside him to make it a good day...just like He-Man,
he could say "I HAVE THE POWER", and presto!  It would be a much
better day for him.  He cracked up!  And now when he gets cross I
tell him in his ear..."Remember, YOU have the POWER!" This
doesn't work with all of them.  Someone mentioned back a few
notes that you just have to find the way that works with each. We
sometimes forget that kids and *individuals* and try to lump them
into one big behavioral unit. 

My youngest can be persuaded to get a book a just sit quietly
with Mom when I need some quiet time.  That wouldn't have worked 
with my daughter.  He'll even tell me, "Mom, I need some quiet 
time too."

My oldest (age 10) can be persuaded to get his drawing book.  
That guarantees me a good hour of peace.  My end of the bargain 
is to be attentive when he's finished and really look at what 
he's drawn.  

Make contracts with your kids.  If you give me a little peace, 
I'll give you a little extra attention.  It really does work once 
they realize you mean it and you'll follow through.

Roxanne

    Michael,
    
    The statement "Spanking a child is abuse" is a generalization. You
    didn't say "Spanking *some* children is abuse", or "Spanking a child
    *in certain ways* is abuse."  You didn't even say "In my opinion,
    spanking a child is abuse."  You simply made a blanket statement
    that left no room for anyone else to disagree.
    
    I was spanked, as were (are) millions of other children, and I
    certainly was NEVER abused by my parents. While quite true for me, that
    doesn't apply to every parent and every child any more than your
    statement applies to everyone. 
    
    I have no children, and heaven knows how I would feel about spanking
    them if I did.  But regardless of how I would treat my own hypothetical
    children, I KNOW how I was treated, and I WAS spanked, and it was
    NOT abuse.  Therefore spanking a child is not ALWAYS abuse.  Period.
    
    That's all I was trying to say.
    
    							Pat

    Would it be safe to summarize as follows?
    
    Some children are abused by their parents and end up spending a
    lifetime trying to work through their problems, or worse, acting
    out their pain.
    
    Other children are abused by their parents and have the luck, strength,
    and good fortune to turn out well in spite of that.
    
    Some children are spanked by their parents and end up spending a
    lot of time trying to work through their resentment and fear.
    
    Other children are spanked by their parents at times.  They know
    their limits.  They also know they are loved and they turn out well
    and happy.
    
    Some children are not physically abused, or spanked by their parents.
    They have no sense of boundaries or limits.  They can be extremely
    difficult to be around.
    
    Other children are not physically abused or spanked by their parents,
    yet are happy, cooperative children who know they are loved and
    who are a pleasure to be around. 
                                   
    
    

RE: .* Disciplining children

Are Children any less people then adults?  Do they have any less rights? Don't
children deserve explanations?  Do you know some 'adults' you'd like to spank?
Why don't you?  Why spank children then?

I usually try to explain the situation to my kids, a couple of times.  If they
get obnoxious I take them out.  They usually realize that they are behaving
unacceptably, without me spanking them.  It's not punishment, it's a
consequence. 

Children, the way some people raise them, or think they should be raised, have
very few rights, often not even everyday decisions like what to wear, what to
eat, where to go.  Some children spend their days being dragged around by their
parent without care for the child. 

Children need to make decisions, have choices from acceptable alternatives...
Children are people too.  There are times that the parent has to be the boss,
but doesn't have to be all the time.  There are times when you have to say,
'look, I know that you don't understand, but that's the way it has to be...' 

RE: .64

If I recieve an invitation to dinner, I usually ask if kids can come; regardless
of what the invitation read.  I do this because quite often I can't come without
them, in which case we both lose, and I really *do* want to come! 

RE: .67 Ann

Consistency is important so that children know what the rules are, and the world
is predictable for them, ... yet ...  differing circumstances do affect rules;
ever rule has it's exception...  Like when a child is misbehaving because they
are tired, punichment accomplishes nothing, putting them to sleep is more
productive. 

RE: .76

"To discipline my nephews, my brother-in-law would make them listen to a 2 hour
record set on how a young man should conduct himself, and would quiz them
afterwards."

Where can I get such a record?! :-)

RE: .88 Myra

"why the problem with stating what one person feels is right??  And letting
other people state what works for them??"

I don't have a problem with it.  I don't agree, but I don't get upset over what
someone else believes, unless that person is *****very***** important to me.
This is a widespread problem in this file; I wish it were less. 

RE: .89, .90  "life threatening situations"

I can imagine that...

"Spanking a child induces a fear,"

I do believe that, without exception.  However, different children will form
different associations for that fear.  Gale's spanking may not harm her children
because she makes it clear each time, why the spanking is being given.  Also,
most children are able to 'get over it'.  My parents did some pretty strange
things to try to get me to 'behave', however, I have forgiven them; I know that
they love me. 

RE: .93

"If everyone knows so much about everything why don't you run for the presidency
of the US !!!!" 

That was uncalled for!

RE: spanking

I would not call spanking necessarily abuse, but nor do I think it is necessary,
and I think there are better ways...

Jim.

    (Have I answered this before?)
    
    Do I enjoy being around children? Yes and no.
    Do I enjoy being around adults?   Yes and no. 
    
    Do I believe in physical punishment for children?  Most of the
    time I would not.  (This is now, I am have to admit that I did
    strike my children when I was younger.)
    
    There is another element in human interaction that I would like
    to point out.  That is one of verbal language and body language
    (facial expressions) that convey the message very clearly about
    approved or unapproved behavior.  It takes concentration and effort
    by the parent (and consitentency).  For some children it works for
    others nothing works.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Physical pain does not inspire LOVE for
    				 only FEAR of
    

    re .92
    
    "A lot of kids today are loud and noisy"
    
    etc. etc.
    
    To quote a slightly older source (*literally* in hieroglyphics)
    
    "The young today show no respect for their elders. And the girls
    shamelessly paint their lips with Henna...."
    
    People, the young have been acting up for a LONG time, and if you
    think it used to be better, that's probably because you were younger
    then too.
    
    An eye-opening book called "Jews Without Money" taught me that getto
    life is largely the same from generation to generation. The gettos
    at the turn of the century had all the modern problems, with much
    the same proportions and percentages. The only real difference I
    can see today is that kids learn obnoxious things on television
    -- behavior for which I believe everyone designing Saturday morning
    cartoons, should be *shot*. But this is a relatively minor aberation.
    
    dov

    re .96
    
    Yea! :-) What you said about child rearing gives me a warm and fuzzy
    feeling inside. I hope I can do as good a job of parenting. (Quite
    a few years down the road yet).
    
    re .99
    
    Pain is not supposed to inspire love, but rather to inspire behavior
    that is demanded by the parent, whether right or wrong.

    re .97
    
    >Are children any less people than adults? ...
    >Do you know some adults you'd like to spank?
    
    [YES]
    
    >Why don't you
    
    [CAN'T FACE THE REPERCUSSIONS, OR MAYBE CAN'T OVERPOWER THEM]
    
    >Why spank children then?
    
    [BECAUSE YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT, AND PREVENT THEM (hopefully)
    FROM BECOMING AN OBNOXIOUS ADULT!]
    
    :-)  :-)  :-) grin! that was a good one Jim!
    
    dov

    I spoke with Greta last night and she does not remember me
    hitting her - which amazed me becasue I had thought that I
    had.  She thinks that I was a successful parent because I
    allowed her to make her own mistakes (in reality I could not
    stop her without doing damage to her self-image).  We talked
    about hitting children and being hit and how it feels.
    
    The following is my opinion only -
    
    If you are cool headed enough to spank a child in a "rational"
    way and are also able to explain that it is for their own good
    then when spank why not be totally rational and explain why
    the behavior is not wanted?  The only time I have even thought
    about hitting my kids was when I was very angry - that may 
    explain why I thought I had spanked Greta but in fact I was just
    angry enough to to it - but rational enough to want to not hurt
    her.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			The Goddess does not punish or reward -
    			It is us "humans" who deal in this muck.
    

A good book to read on the experience of feelings about children is 
THE MOTHER KNOT.  It is a fair description of how feelings fluctuate.
I lent my copy to someone contemplating a "late-in-life" pregnancy so
I can't insert the author's name here.  It is autobiographical.

justme....jacqui