Conference turris::womannotes-v1

        Of course, If Dave is keen on looking like a woman, I am sure
        someone has a Chainsaw tyhat we could perform a little plastic
        surgery with... :-)
        
        q

    Being new to the NOTESFILE, I was a little shocked that someone
    would violate the integrity of womannotes in such a degrading and
    humiliating manner.  "Oh sweet innocence, where hast thou gone?"
    
    I'm with you "q".  I always did want to be a doctor!
    

  What am I doing here? Moved by the moderator!
  
  Margaret, I may be a liar,'not clever',a twit and a layabout
  but I am not contributing to any loss of market share in the
  UK, in fact the UK are doing rather well compared with certain
  other areas of the corporation. I don't mind personel insults
  but do not refer to my beloved DEC UK as ever having lost anything
  by anybody or else .....
  
  
  Dave.
  
  P.S. Apart from the above gripe I fully support your notes file.

    I know the UK are doing very well, Dave:  everyone else's positive
    efforts more than make up for yours <grin>.
    
    Welcome back.
    
    					=maggie

AHHH! Nostalgia! A fellow employee who has just found this notesfile
reminded me of my *humourous* contribution to this file, so I came
and re-read it.
Its a pity that Jamie Badman (who put me upto it) made such a quick
exposure as I always intended to own up (really).
Even after all this time it is still quite shocking to me how people
could take my 'leg_pulling' so seriously, my feeling then and now was
they were being far more damaging to the *feel* of the file than I
ever was.
Can someone explain to me the _why_ of the extreme reaction to this and
to the 'tongue in cheek sexism of oz notes'?

Dave (seriously).

    Coming on your notes well after the fact I can't speak for
    those who were there at the time. However, my immediate reaction
    was that the guy who did it must think that women are brainless
    wimps who are only interested in clothes and cooking hints. It
    came over as a not very funny put down.

    Well, I wasn't there originally either, but I definately resented
    finding that note here. I'm willing to answer a genuine question.
    There are lots of things I can get in my day-to-day experience,
    including good advice from men, alot of advice from men, and kidding
    about feminism from men. All have their place in my life. What I
    am hoping to get out of this notes file is good advice from women,
    and a supportive place for feminism (even if all aren't feminists;
    and I use the term loosely). I don't mind getting other things here,
    but I *resent* something that feels like jerking around, or
    patronization (hmm, is that a word?).
    	Mez

    Maybe you should re-examine your definition of leg-pulling, humor,
    etc.  It's not humor when you offend everyone in sight.

re .7:

	Fair comment, however I don't think that way.

re .8

	Again fair comment.

re .9:

>    Maybe you should re-examine your definition of leg-pulling, humor,
>    etc.  It's not humor when you offend everyone in sight.

	This comment is not so fair, firstly you assume that everyone was
	offended, I know this to be untrue.
	Humour most often offends when it is close to the truth, if we
	abandon humour on 'home truths' then we are in danger of losing
	all humour.

------

The reason I entered that reply was because I believe that feminists take
themselves too seriously and I was just testing the water. The feminists
I know will jump down my throat at the slightest mention of womens attitudes
and behaviors unless in their favour, in return I rib them with comments
such as entered here, I have since been informed by a fellow DECie that
feminists across the pond (as most of you are) are even more sensative to
remarks such as mine and take my <parody> of sexist comments in other
conferences as sexist comments, this came as a suprise to me.

Apolgies for any offence,
Dave.

moderator> please delete all my notes in this topic after a couple of days
and those embedded in your extraction, thanyou.

    You mean there was someone apart from you that wasn't offended,
    Dave?  It's clear that they weren't active members of *this* community!
    
    Seriously, Dave, you got such a blast because (as you now know) this
    file isn't intended to be the same sort of arena that =australia= is,
    and there was no point in not beginning as we meant to go on.  At best
    your joke was tacky and at worst genuinely offensive, and the fact that
    *you* aren't tacky or offensive by nature...well, at least not
    offensive <snicker>...simply wasn't obvious to anyone.
    
    We do enjoy having you (in your serious, thoughtful persona) in
    the community, Dave.  
    
    					=maggie

    Dave, I don't see any reason why you should delete your notes.
    They are a part of the history of the conference. I don't
    think people were *that* offended.
    
    There are some topics that haven't been brought up here even 
    though this might be a natural place for them. They are things
    like grooming, fashion, cooking etc. that used to be considered
    "women's subjects". It is my impression that these topics are
    avoided just because the writers don't want to fall into the trap
    of being perceived as being *only* interested in those subjects.
    (I know I was a little dubious about raising a question about
    hair care a few months back.) Your original note, as I recall it,
    implied that kind of image of women (only interested in clothes
    etc.). I think it is possible to poke a little fun at most feminists
    as long as you know the difference between fun and a put down.
    (anybody know how many feminsts it takes to change a light bulb?) Even
    if you know how you feel readers can only go by the words you write
    if they have never met or corresponded with you directly.

    A tangent....the above perception about topics, is of course,
    entirely my own. How do other readers feel about this? Can we
    discuss quick ways to fix dinner, or how to make a Halloween 
    costume in two evenings, or other non work realated topics pertaining
    to working women without being perceived as dropping to the level
    of the "women's pages"?

re .12:

>    There are some topics that haven't been brought up here even 
>    though this might be a natural place for them. They are things
>    like grooming, fashion, cooking etc. that used to be considered
>    "women's subjects".

I am a married man with no kids, Sandy (my wife) is very fond of telling
people we meet how I cook, iron, clean-up etc. The reaction she gets from
other women is either 'oh really? I wish my <SO> was like that' or 'my <SO>
would never do those things'. So I have come to the conclusion that what
'used' to be womens subjects are still 'womens roles' in the minds of many.
I certainly expected more from this conference than tradional womens roles and
interests and it has lived upto this expectation, if I saw the subjects you
mentioned I would be worried that the conference could lose value for many
noters and be open to ridicule (however justified).

Dave.

    RE: .6  Dave, I don't know you, so how can you expect me to understand
    when you're joking, especially without facial expressions?  It's not
    easy to find something humerous when you've been sterotyped as brainless, 
    only concerned about clothes.  But what can you expect, all men are
    insensitive :-) .

    (Ahh, just joking there as the smiley face should indicate.  I don't
    believe that statement myself).

    RE: .12  Go ahead and start a topic.  However, you might want to check
    if it's covered under another conference.  Hair styles (how do you find
    a style that looks professional but can be sexy for those special
    evenings?) or fast dinners are appropriate to this conference since they
    affect working women (and men).

    ...Karen

    
    Re .10, I think these notes should remain in the file so that women
    who are new to Womannotes will have a fresh reminder of what we
    are up against in the world.  I would be curious to know who wasn't
    offended.  Dave, you claim that feminists take themselves too
    seriously.  Isn't there anything that you feel so strongly about
    that you don't want to see it made into a joke?  Afterall, what's
    so funny about the fact that, for the most part, men still run the
    world - nuclear war, racism, sexism, poverty??
    
    Lorna
    

.10> Humour most often offends when it is close to the truth . . .

I disagree, though I can see how the originator of the humour would
 see it that way.

Humour usually hinges on what one perceives as the truth.  If one's
 perception of the truth is a subject of debate, the humour derives
  itself from the reinforcement of that perception.  The tension is
   relieved, and laughter is the result.

Most ethnic jokes work on this principle.  "Polack" jokes are just
 a bunch of different ways to say that Poles are stupid.  Likewise,
  there are jokes about gay men being effeminate, Lesbians being mas-
   culine, blacks being lazy, Irish people being drunks, etc.  Would
    you say that these jokes are offensive because they are close to
     the truth?

One is offended by your humour not because it's close to the truth, but
 because it promotes something that *isn't* truth *as* the truth.  (I
  might also add that it offends my aesthetic senses, since the point
   of the humour is boring and unoriginal.)
    <_Jym_>

re .14:

>    Dave, I don't know you, so how can you expect me to understand
>    when you're joking, especially without facial expressions?

At the time of the orginal note I was not fully aware how difficult it
is to see into the eye of the writer and read their intent. I realise this
now.

re .15:

>	Isn't there anything that you feel so strongly about
>    that you don't want to see it made into a joke?

Yes there are things, when I was in my teens and early twenties I used to
take most things very seriously and found I couldn't take the strain it put
on my life. Since then I've learned to relax and it now takes quite a bit to
get me angry. An example of something that makes me angry would be a statement
(which I _have_ heard) like 'most women who are raped deserve it'.
    
re .16:

Good for you! I cannot name people here who wern't offended but they do
include several women who have mentioned it to me. This is irrellevant as
I'm trying to find out the feelings of those offended.
    
re .17:

>One is offended by your humour not because it's close to the truth, but
> because it promotes something that *isn't* truth *as* the truth.  

Point taken.

Also I'm sorry I offended your aesthetic senses, how do you read SOAPbox
without vomiting ? :^7

re .all:

My natural reaction with all this attack is defend, I hope I haven't done
done that too much as it was not my intention. My intention is to learn and
not make mistakes such as 'Davina'.

Dave.

    I wasn't offended either. At the time, I figured he was pulling
    people's legs, having seen the name around other files and knowing
    it wasn't a woman. It might not have been in the best taste or the
    most diplomatic way to introduce himself, but I saw no reason to
    spring up in righteous indignation and offer to castrate him (as
    others did). But, then even though I'm serious about feminism, I don't
    don't take it seriously, i.e., without a sense of humor. People
    who are so fanatical about any subject that they lose their sense
    of humor strike me as sad.
    
    Tamzen
    

        I wasn't offended.  I also wasn't the least bit amused. 
        I thought it was just plain stupid, actually.
        
        	/dave

    Dave, Dave, Dave...
    What are we going to do with you?
    
    I was catching up on this note and about to write a reply
    commending you on your courage for reentering this discussion
    instead of hiding from the outrage it inspired.  And then I
    find note 107. You don't learn easily. 
    
    I don't find this original note offensive.
    It's simply not worth wasting the effort to flame about.  it is
    in poor taste as are a lot of your responses and I don't much
    appreciate your attitude, but I guess you can't help it.
    
   

    I just found this Notesfile and started going through it.
    I saw Dave's entry here and thought, my goodness what a
    jerk> but what's with all the flaming going on?  I believe
    everything has it's place and try not to get hysterical over
    some peoples ideas at what is humor.  Some men never learn,
    but thats ok, alot do.  I don't think sugery is required,
    just a tablespoon of salt.  I think the reason "feminist"
    are the brunt of so many jokes and crudities, is because
    there is no sense of humor.  If someones says something
    I truely find offensive, I ignore it as not worthy of 
    comment.  If we are face to face, I leave with no comment.
    That way it becomes obvious that there was no value to
    what was said and a personal statement on my part has
    been made.  
    Just an opinion on my part.  I have been in many male 
    oriented jobs and have always succeeded because I am a
    feminist with a sense of humor.
    Vivian
    new_here_but_sticking_around
    

>    I was catching up on this note and about to write a reply
>    commending you on your courage for reentering this discussion
>    instead of hiding from the outrage it inspired.  And then I
>    find note 107. You don't learn easily. 

I presume you are refering to my replies to 107.*- as I didn't write
the base note. What is it you find bad about those replies?
    
As for my 'poor taste' and 'bad attitude' I suspect there is no saving me :-)

Dave.

    re .22
    
    I agree.  And perhaps to clarify why that tactic would work,  many
    people act like idiots because it draws some attention to themselves.
    No reaction = no reason to continue being an idiot.
    
    Sheila
    
    

    Well Lisa, this is from situations I have been in>>>>

    Personally I find dirty jokes very offensive. Where others 
    laugh.  I don't.  If someone askes me if I want to hear a 
    joke, I say no if its offensive, they proceed to tell me,
    I walk away.  Gee, that seems pretty clear that I don't find
    it funny.  Some of the people I have had to work with find
    that if they can find your "button" as they have described
    it to me, they dig at it till it hurts.  If I walk away from
    offensive comments, conversations, jokes it becomes pretty 
    clear to that person that I won't listen so there is no point
    in continueing their behavior.  If more women walked away when
    feeling offended, who would these offenders have to talk to???
    This kind of no-response has helped me in the Army, and at DEC.

    Does that help?  I like this approach verses explaining how I
    feel about what I found offensive since the person usually knows
    its offensive in the first place and wants to watch the reaction
    they can get.
    
    Vivian
        

    
    just for the record.....
    
    Having worked with Dave for the past 15 months, I would like to
    tell you about the Dave Kerrell that I know.  He's not at all arrogant,
    does not have chauvinistic tendencies and generally I have found
    him to be a kind, considerate and helpful member of our European
    Support organisation
    
    O.k. his sense of humour is not everybodies cup-of-tea, but wouldn't
    it be boring if we were all the same ........
    
    

    I'm fairly new to this file, and tonight when tuning in, I was first
    presented with topic 4.0, and read Davina's (obviously phony) note. I
    knew immediately that "Davina" was from across the pond (spelling of
    "favour", and phrases like "nasty sharp bits", and "catch my tights").  I
    was charmed by his accent, and had a quiet chuckle to myself.  Call me
    a traitor, but hardcore feminists are the bores.
    
    And, Dave, I enjoyed your other replies in this discussion.  The
    "twit" label given you has one too many t's. 
    
    Val

    
    Wanna know the truth?  I had to re-read 4.0 several times while
    going thru 4.* in order to be sure I hadn't missed something.  Though
    I think that a number of valid objections have been voiced, when
    I first read 4.0 I was not offended.  This could be because I have
    just been moved to a new office location and I have not yet found,
    and therefore not yet scotch taped up all of those "nasty sharp
    bits on the furnature where I can catch my tights".  It is true
    that I feel he was being a real "wise guy".  I do, however, feel
    that he has pointed out the valid fact that women and men can have
    very widely devided points of view due to the fact that we do not
    share thousands and thousands of small characteristics.  Each one
    of these characteristics, when taken and examined individually,
    can seem very trivial (and therefore perhaps funny?).  But when
    you add them all up you have probably summed the bulk of the defference
    between the male and the female experience.  After I was in my new
    office for a few weeks, I had run nearly 7 pairs of "tights", but
    now I have taped over all (I hope) "sharp bits".  Did I always think
    it was funny when I ripped a new pair that was new that morning?
    Perhaps not, but I realized that it was a very real part of getting
    used to my new office.  What I have just described is a female
    experience.  Since variety is still the spice of life, perhaps we
    should listen to what he was saying - not what he said.
    
    OR  . . .  perhaps he was just being a JERK!
    
    (there's my $.02  8-) ) 

>    OR  . . .  perhaps he was just being a JERK!
    
Never!

Regarding the damage to your clothes, if you still have the damaged articles
as evidence then claim for them! And if you damaged your person then put it
in the accident book.

Dave.

    A note from someone on the outside looking in.
    
    Hey, Dave -- Got yourself a bit of notoriety, huh.  I have grown to
    achieve a level of self-confidence that helps to be to overcome
    day-to-day disappointments and I am continuously learning what my
    emotional tolerances are and you know what -- I am still surviving.
    And so will you, and all offended by you.  I do not know what childhood
    adages you are taught in the UK, but I tend to "favour" --
    "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt
    me."