Conference turris::womannotes-v1

sigh. I got one of these too a while back, and stupidly deleted it because
I couldn't cope with looking at it. I should have held on to it for
the class action suit :-}.
	Mez

    Harassment?  I hardly think so!
    
    I am a woman, and I have thus far merely been an observer to this
    notesfile, but I feel rather strongly about this subject.
    
    I think Mr. Faulkner's comment could be interpreted as a difference
    of opinion, perhaps a strong personality clash.  But to call it
    harassment is, in my opinion, overreacting.
    

    
    
    As far as harrasment, well that may be in the eye of the beholder.
     
    Would a smiley icon have helped?  Probably not.  But what does posting
    personal mail really do to solve the issue?
    
    I'm confused.  
    
    

    
    
    I think it was an example of how "un"safe a place WOMANNOTES is
    for a feminist.
    
    _peggy
    

    Becuase the basenote involves posting of mail without the sender's
    permission I have set it hidden and requested that the author re
    write the note in a more general fashion.
    
    thankyou all for your patience
    
    Bonnie J

    The base note was a copy of a note that a noter received.   It included
    the following quote:
    
    >Where were you when 
    >they handed out the sugar and spice?
    
    The offensiveness of this little seemingly pretty mild phrase is
    due to where it was lifted from:
    	"Girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.
    	That's what little girls are made of."
    
    First of all, the quote ("Where were you...") was addressed to a woman,
    not a little girl, nor even a girl.   And second of all, the assumption
    is that the female sex is all nicey nicey--that the female sex doesn't
    get upset or angry or bitter--and that if a woman is not nice, she's
    missing something...  (where were you when they handed out)
    
    All in all, it strikes me as a cute way to say "I'm a bit of a sexist."
    What is so strange is, why would anyone want to find a cute way???
    
    Tamar

    I deeply resent the way in which *many* men have trivialized the 
    concerns, fears, and issues of the women in this file.  I also 
    deeply resent the way in which personal attacks are used to keep 
    us down.  What hurts me most, however, is to see women 
    turning on each other and buying into the myths that keep us from
    reaching our potential for human growth and happiness.  It was my hope
    that this file would be one tiny corner where women, gay and straight, 
    could share their experiences of what it means to be a woman at DEC.  
    Unfortunately, too many men have been unable to understand how
    important this one tiny space has been to us.  And now it seems that 
    the anger that has been under the surface for months is finally
    bubbling up.  Well, I for one am not going to tolerate abuse directed
    at me or at my sisters.  What is it that is so threatening about this 
    conference that men have felt the need to terrorize it?!  
    
    
Is anyone out there interested in starting a conference for women where
feminist is not a dirty word?                    

Hurt, tired and angry,

Justine

	Mr. Faulkner's "opinion" is not an opinion in the sense
	that persons interested in a rational discussion would
	use the term.  It is an unqualified personal attack,
	and no one should have to put up with this sort of
	offensive thing.  If I ask Mr. Faulkner where he was
	when they handed out the cerebral portions of the brain,
	am I just expressing an "opinion"?

    *hackles up*
    
    I am no slobbering butch 6'2" 240 lb radical feminist in workboots
    with crampons.  I am a Digital employee.  I am a tech. writer by
    trade.  I am a creative writer, musician, discourser on the human
    condition, and so much more.  I am also a woman.  There should be
    nothing wrong with this.  However, were I to write everything from
    some remote crag in Chile, and not let on what sex I was, some people
    would be far less likely to taint my words with their impression
    of "what a woman should be" or "what a woman must be" or "poor old
    girl, barking up the wrong tree again" or "you're female so of course
    you must be wrong".  Would that I could be successful in my attempts
    at being a human being - with all the innate emotions and shared-things
    with other human beings untinged with prejudgement - and then add
    on, as an added bonus..."not only am I a human being, but I'm a
    woman, too".  Pretty damn special to just be alive, but in my eyes
    a gift to be a human, and a woman, too.  I am just beginning to
    realize my value, after a long time of not knowing who I was or
    why I'm here.  I'm also learning that the more I try to realize
    this out loud, the  more certain people try and tread the carpet
    of my thoughts with hobnail boots.
    
    now, here in womannotes some people are listening.  some people
    are disinterested.  that's okay.  but to remark vehemently against
    50% of a species is pretty .... well .... as Dorothy's Aunt Em said
    in The Wizard of Oz, "I've wanted to tell you what I thought of
    you for 15 years, and now, being a Christian woman, I can't bring
    myself to say it." 
    
    
    -Jody
    

re .7

Thank you for saying 'many' instead of implying _all_ men.  At least when 
the ire gets raised, cooler heads can still prevail.

Just thought it was something worth mentioning given the recent history of 
this conference.

    People--
    
    I get angry sometimes, too, about the trivial treatment of anyone's
    opinion;  especially when it is important to that person.  Just
    as a lot of previously "men-only" clubs have opened their doors
    to women, WOMANNOTES and MENNOTES are open to each sex.  My hope
    was and is that by accessing both files, we can start to understand
    how we think and feel about "women/men-issues".  This helps us to
    understand each other better.
    
    There are always going to be jerks of both sexes who will abuse the
    files;  one of my goals EVERY DAY is to try not to let it get to
    me (ain't easy some days!).  Not long ago, I took up my courage
    and entered a note asking for input on something that means a great
    deal to me.  The first "flako" reply really hurt until I realized
    that not everyone is going to take you seriously--that's just life.
    
    One great thing happens when a rude/boorish/ignorant note or
    reply is entered--people will jump right in and and either defend
    the original base note, or say, "Please don't judge all women/men
    by this note."  Believe it or not, that's progress, folks!! 
    
    Let's keep on trying--life's too short.
    
    Jane

      Well I guess its time to own up. I was the one who objected to
    the way the base note was put in here. If the sender gave permission
    that her/his mail message could be put in here then I think its
    OK. By posting it in here without consent to me  is a big no-no!
    I find that some of the arguments in here and other files can be
    taken off the net and be debated with out a lot of trivial back
    and forth garbage in the net.
    
       Flora, I really don't blame you for getting upset at Kerry. He
    has that knack for getting to people. I *DONOT* want to be put in
    his catagorie. In fact a lot of men in this file don't even come
    close to his way of thinking. I don't know what you can do about
    it but I do wish you luck.
    
                          REK

    It certainly is ironic that the sender of the missive described in .0,
    who certainly had no point (or sense) of etiquette in mind at the
    time, should scream "noters' etiquette!- don't post my mail!"
    
    Keeping private things private is what the "don't post mail" GUIDELINE
    is about, not hiding unsolicited obnoxious behaviour.
    
    - M

Ok, I am confused.  Offense is taken by something sent in private mail as
harrasement.  Fine.  But no offense is taken by anyone when the note talking
about team play constantly calls the "men's team' cheaters.  Can someone
explain the difference to me?  Why is one insult harrasement and the other
not?

-Joe

    re -1:
    
    Two reasons.
    
    Calling the "men's team" cheaters - I don't really like it myself
    because *can* appear to link all men to that "team", which is what
    you may have thought, but it is not a *personal* attack.  Speaking about
    some one *person* badly can more readily be considered a personal attack.
    
    My philosophy on notes and personal mail is this.  You open up your
    notes files voluntarily.  You participate here voluntarily.  There
    may be some nasty stuff in notes and we all know that this is true
    from time to time.  However, I do believe that receiving nasty mail *is*
    harassment because you have no choice as to whether or not to read
    the mail.  You *have* to read your mail.  You do not *have* to read
    notes.  *You* come to notes, but *mail* comes to you.  See the difference?
    
    BTW, I did not read the base note before it was set hidden, so I
    do not know what it's all about anyway.
    
    	-Ellen

>    Calling the "men's team" cheaters - I don't really like it myself
>    because *can* appear to link all men to that "team", which is what
>    you may have thought, but it is not a *personal* attack.  

The intent seems to have been all men (of course that is how I read it ;-)).
The individual members of a group can well consider it an attack when the
group is downgraded.  The base note, the text of which can be seen a few
replies back, asks if it is harrasement to the receiver if a generalization
is made (all women are 'sugar and spice' types).  It seems there is a one
to one correspondence here with the 'cheater' label place on the one team.
Don't you agree?

>    My philosophy on notes and personal mail is this.  You open up your
>    notes files voluntarily.  You participate here voluntarily.  

Agreed, and that is the way I take it.  I am not offended, merely seeking to
reduce my level of ignorance in the world.  It is like a movie, though...
You never know if it is good until you see it.  I doubt very much that ANYTHING
can be said in a conference under that guise.  SEXCETERA is the glowing example
of that.

Does this mean that man really are not made out of 'rags and tags and old
paper bags' ?  :-)

-Joe

    	RE:  .17
    
    	Try to remember that the whole "team" thing was an *ANALOGY*
    	(and "cheating" was analogous to the concept that men have
    	unfair advantages over women in the workplace.)  
    
    	In real terms, I don't think for a minute that most men set
    	out to deliberately sabatoge women at work.  However, I do
    	think that some men happily accept their advantages without
    	really thinking about what is happening to women.
    
    						 Suzanne... ;-)

    I have no idea if the sender of the message that was in .0 cares
    one way or another about it being there. I doubt he complained.
    I complained about it being there because I believe that posting
    mail in notes without permission is wrong. Regardless of the motivation
    of the posting or the contents of the mail.
    
    I understand how the mail message that was sent (obviously I read
    it) could be considered offensive. I can see how someone could consider
    it harassment. By the same token if I received such a mail message,
    unless there were extreme circumstances where that mail message
    was the straw that broke the camels back, I'd have a lot of trouble
    complaining about it. Name calling is not that big a deal to me.
    If I complained every time someone called me a nasty name because
    they disagreed with something I said in Notes then the time I spent
    in personal would impact my work.
    
    				Alfred

    
    	Re - last few
    
    	For all you know, *anything* that goes whistlin' down the wire
    from your account is "fair game" and may be used against you. For
    all anyone knows, there's 50 people whose job it is to just read
    notesfiles, record who says what, read more notesfiles, record who
    said what, read more notesfiles...Oh, what an employee database they 
    could form!
    
    	You get mail from someone and want to post it - fine. The sender
    *knew* it was your option to do whatever - print it, encrypt it,
    forward it, delete it - when she/he hit "return". Now if someone
    took personal mail from another's account by using "majic" keystrokes,
    then posted it for the world to see - *then* I could see where there
    would be a problem.
                     
    	...and you dont "have" to read mail. You can do a directory,
    just like in notes, and delete those messages you wish not to see.
    In fact, you dont "have" to put yourself through anything generated
    through these conferences, as was mentioned before...
    
    	A "safe place" is a utopian myth. In reality, there'll always
    be a root to trip over, a skinned knee, a few tears shed. They'll
    dry quickly. You'll be more careful, smarter next time. Isnt that
    called "Growing"?
    
    	Joe Jas
    
    	Joe Jas  

        Does anyone think that this is a fair way to handle posting
    of abusive mail?
    
        Upon receiving abusive mail a person replies to the sender
    with mail stating that any further abusive mail from the sender
    will be posted in the related notes conference.
    
        I feel that this notifies the sender of the intent to post abusive
    mail and puts the responsibility of not having mail posted on the
    sender.
    
        It would also probably be a good idea to send the reply to yourself
    and to the moderator of the conference where any further abusive
    mail will be posted.

        For all that I am constantly calling for tolerance, love and
        commitment in this file and others, I've also been a fighter for
        more than 25 years, and I know how I would handle mail messages
        like the one in 361.0. For the record I haven't seen that
        particular mail message, but I've been shown enough similar ones
        by lady-friends and seen enough spiteful notes posted by the
        same author that I don't mind going on supposition. 
        
        Harassment in this comapnay is defined in the eye of the the
        person who feels harassed. It is also not tolerated. If I were
        to receive such a message I would send precisely one mail
        message to the author explaining that such messages are
        offensive to me and constitute harassment. I would ask the
        person to have no further contact with me. I would save copies
        of both his message and mine. If I got another I would go to
        Personnel and complain of harassment. My case would stand up. 
        
        I don't understand why the women of this file let people get
        away with the kind of disruption of this file and the personal
        attacks and harassment that show up here and through the mail to
        the membership. Actually, I'm afraid that I do know. I'm much
        afraid that the women in this file for all that they are called
        radical feminists by many have bought the same line of crap
        about how women are meek and demure that everyone else has. 
        
        The first reply spoke of a class action suit. It reminded me of
        the team analogy that's been used in other discussions here. It
        would seem to me that a little team-work could show how there is
        a pattern to this sort of stuff and put a stop to it.
        
        As to why it is harassment to offend people with this sort of
        mail but not to call the "men's team" cheaters, there are
        several reasons. Women are a protected minority. Men are not.
        (Don't confuse the fact that they are a numerical majority with
        the fact that in the eyes of the law and policy they are a
        minority.) General and moderately mild comments about a group
        are less personal and less biting than a comment directed at a
        single person. Also "the men's team cheats" is part of a dialog.
        Personal attacks aren't. 
        
        There is no denying that women have been discriminated against,
        what's being debated in the "the other team is cheating"
        discussion is who is guilty of the descrimination. The easiest
        answer is "men". It is not to my mind a correct or perhaps even
        fair answer but it is easy to understand. It is also a place
        that you can start a discussion. If we can show that not all
        cheaters are men, and that there are men on "the women's team",
        etc, then we can progress. Maybe we can get men to see that
        there is a problem that needs fixing, and the women to
        understand that the problem isn't just men or all men.
        
        In the end, in a conference like WomanNotes where issues
        important to women are discussed the notion that men are the
        root of the problem is going to come up. If we can get it to do
        so in a mild fashion and we can use it as merely a part of a
        fruitful dialog we're doing pretty well. On the other hand,
        personal attacks either in the file or through mail should not
        be tolerated, especially repeatedly. 
        
        JimB.

    	Why do so many people get so upset as a result of the antics
    of a few jerks?  Don't you realize the jerks have one simple goal,
    to get as many people upset as possible?  Pay them what they are
    worth, nothing.  
    
    	For the record, any notes related mail flames I receive are
    laughed at, and I have received many.  If the authors don't have
    sufficient courage to flame me in the notes file then I don't have
    the time to take them seriously.
    
    	I have met a goodly number of intelligent, articulate people
    in WOMANNOTES.  Some of the noters are stupid and silly.  The former
    I treat as gems, the latter I just don't think about.
                   
    Douglas

    Re: .21
    No. I firmly believe that the method you describe is *not* a fair
    or correct method to handle abusive mail.
    
    As Jim Burrows stated in .22, you document your case, you reply once
    that you find this offensive or harrassing and that further contact
    will involve Personnel. You keep copies of all such transactions.
    You carry out these actions or you don't make the reply in the first
    place.
    
    Please do not post such mail to conferences. This could lead to
    a lot of grief for a lot of people (moderaotrs are people, too).
    
    This is a basic matter of good Noting Etiquette. It is at best,
    very rude to post anything someone else wrote to another conference
    or to you in mail. This should never be done without permission
    of the original author. For more hints see HUMAN::ETIQUETTE. (press
    KP7 or SELECT to add it to your notebook.
                                             
    Tamzen 
    

     re .24:
     
     Hold on ... are you sure that it's rude or a breach of etiquette to
     post something that someone has written in another conference
     (assuming that the conference is not restricted and the extract is not
     out of context)? 
     
     It seems to me that when you send a piece of mail to an individual,
     it's reasonable to assume that the information in the mail is a
     private communication. When you post a note for all the Easynet to
     see, on the other hand, the privacy issue vanishes. 
     
     --Mr Topaz

    Re .25:
    
    I think it's polite to ask someone if you want to re-post a note of
    theirs, if only because they may not choose to have their opinions
    aired in whichever new conference the note is placed. Somebody moved
    something of mine to SOAPBOX once upon a time, and I found it mildly
    annoying - I simply didn't want to participate, even indirectly, in
    that conference at that time. (How did I find out, you may ask? I have
    my methods...) 
    
    Also, sometimes someone responds to the moved note in its new location,
    but the original author - unaware of that location - doesn't find out
    about it. Misconceptions can occur and feelings get hurt, and confusion
    can result. Therefore, since I see no reason *not* to inform the author
    (unless he or she has since left the company), I'd say go ahead and ask
    first. 

    -b

    
    I feel like we're getting off track here.  One of the moderators
    of this file asked people to say how they felt about this file.
    She especially wanted to hear from the folks who had left.  One
    woman spoke up and received a personal attack via vaxmail.  And
    what was the subject of that attack?  Did the sender point out
    that her logic was flawed?  No, he couldn't because she spoke
    only of her feelings, and feelings can't be "flawed."  What the
    sender did was to tell this woman that she was not sweet enough,
    that it was "unlady-like" for her to express so much anger.
    That's the kind of stuff that keeps us all down, the fear that
    if we speak up, we'll be accused of being less than feminine.
    It strikes me as sadly odd that we're focusing so much energy
    on whether or not mail should be posted.  What about the real
    issue here?  How do people feel about the fact that one of us
    was attacked for expressing our feelings.  As long as this can
    happen to one of us, is any of us really safe?!
    
    Justine

        361.27 asked:
            
            How do people feel about the fact that one of us was
            attacked for expressing our feelings.  As long as this
            can happen to one of us, is any of us really safe?!
        
        To be blunt, it's like rape. If women don't report it and
        don't see that the offenders are punished, it will keep on
        happening. If women don't say "No. That offends me." it will
        keep happening.
        
        It isn't a woman's fault if she is attacked, but if women as a
        class don't stand up for their rights, don't see that those who
        attack them are made to see the error of their ways, then women
        as a class own a small part of the responsibility (not the
        guilt) for it continuing to be a problem. Those of us men who
        don't attack who attempt to defend can only do so much. 
        
        On the other hand, it is hard to prosecute a rapist. It is hard
        to say "no" to someone who is scarey or menacing. It is hard to
        trust the system. It isn't always safe to trust the system or to
        fight back. The risks are much lower in protesting abusive notes
        or mail and in going to personnel, but they are real. Say "no"
        to a jerk who sends abusive mail and you may get more mail,
        phone calls or garbage spread about you. Go to personnel and
        they may start asking what you did to provoke it or look into
        the notefile that was involved.
        
        At least one person who was challenged for abusive mail and
        notes indicated that the only result of using personnel would be
        the loss of this file. Personally I'd say that the value of this
        file and its corespondence with the "valuing difference" policy
        is so high and so obvious that there is only about a 1% to 5%
        chance that officialdom would see anything wrong with it. (If
        they did they'd be wrong, by the way, but that doesn't guarentee
        it couldn't happen.) 
        
        Abusive people count on their victims to roll over. They count
        on them to value other things that might be risked too much to
        take the chance to fight back. 
        
        Of course, in a very real sense (I'm dead serious here) I'm just
        another man telling women how to run their file and their lives.
        The above is my opinion, my very strong opinion. That doesn't
        mean I think it has to be the opinion of women in this file.
        There may be other ways to handle this sort of thing. I have no
        idea what they are and they will seem alien to me, but there is
        no denying that they might exist and might be valuable. 
        
        I have no right to say that women as a grouyp may hold some
        responsibility for helping prevent rape or to prevent this kind
        of mail. Doing so may only increase the burden of societally
        mandated guilt or to undermine self-confidence, but as an
        arogant (at least proud) and aggressive man, this is my view.
        
        I try not to mouth off to much in this file, where I still feel
        like an outsider and a visitor, but after a while the burden
        that jerks like this place on me as a moderator and the pain
        that I see dear friends experience at their hands makes so angry
        that I can't help but spout off. I'll try to shut up now.
        
        JimB.

    RE: .-1
    
    That's why I sent my Womannotes-note reply as mail.
    
    Some things I feel safe saying here.
    
    Some things I don't.
    
    This space is "safer" than some; but it's not a place where I feel
    totally able to speak my mind. A feminist, especially a (*gasp*)
    Radical Feminist, is likely to have to be defending herself a *LOT*.
    It's kinda too bad we have to do it here, too.
    
    Sometimes I just don't have the energy.
    
    Dawn
    

   Thankyou Jim - very well spoken

    Thye dangers of using .-1
    
    My reference wasn't to Jim's reply, but to the previous.
    
    *sigh*
    
    Dawn
    

re: .-all

Out of curiosity, how many of the previous repondents have actually seen the
mail message?  

-Joe

    note .6 gives the gist of the mail message

    re .28                                                    
        
    Jim, your reply feels to me as if you are trying to start a lynch
    mob.
    
    
    Communication is a tricky thing at best. Electronic communication
    is especially ambiguous when we deal with issues  in which we have
    an emotional investment.  I do not presume to tell anyone what to 
    feel in response to a NOTE or a MAIL message.  But I think we need 
    to be cautious about trying to exact retribution for a reference
    that can have a multiplicity of meanings.
    
    I do not deny that much anger is justified. I do not deny that much
    harassment occurs. Is that really what happened here? Or is it just
    a joke in poor taste, or a lack of sensitivity or something else?
    Could it be anger at perceiving oneself as the object of another's
    anger?  I can't tell.
    
    Please, let's try to remember that every one of us at the other
    end of the terminal line is an imperfect human being, too.
                         

    In general, when I have encountered an intense degree of hostility and
    anger that seems unnecessarily personal, I have sooner or later
    discovered that the intense agression was covering up a lot of
    unexpressed and often unadmitted hurt. 
    
    --bonnie

    If I understand Bonnie Randall correctly, she is saying that the
    author of the mail message has unexpressed and unadmitted hurt.
    For me, this is inconsequential.  No matter how much hurt you may
    be feeling, you do not have the right to inflict pain or a personal
    attack on another person.  People who do such things should be stopped.
    
             Carol

    Well to be strictly honest, in that particular mail, the individual
    did not 'afflict a personal attack on another person' - it was more
    a case of terminal foot in mouth disease. He essentially made a
    remark that he thought was cute to someone who found the remark
    offensive. But the comment fit more in the area of a person making
    a joke about something that was very serious and important to 
    another person than a remark that was intentionally meant to offend.
    A person can be thoughtless or even rude at times without malice...
    Tho to the one on the recieving end the difference is a thin one.
    
    Bonnie
    

        No. I don't want to start a lynch mob. I merely recognize that
        what harassment is at DEC is the repeatedly subjecting people to
        material that *they* feel is offensive. That being the case,
        women who receive offensive (*to* *them*), should tell the
        sender to stop. If he has any sense, he will. If he won't, then
        they ought to avail themselves of the process of the system. 
        
        If several women feel that one person is harassing them, then
        there is the beginnings of a pattern. Someone who keeps up such
        behavior would appear to be looking for trouble. You can claim
        they're over-reacting, but if he continues after seeing multiple
        indications that what he's saying and doing is offensive, then
        he *IS* harassing them. It may be intended as a joke. It may be
        "just his opinion", but that doesn't change it. 
        
        Posting such mail here isn't going to help. Fuming in quiet
        isn't going to stop it. What should stop it is simply telling
        the sender that it is offensive. If that doesn't work, there are
        defined procedures. 
        
        JimB.

    re: .36 and .37 --
    
    I wasn't referring to the base note (which I never saw) or to any
    particular noter.
    
    I was merely trying to point out that perhaps some compassion rather
    than a retaliation in kind might be a more effective way to deal
    with many apparently vicious attacks.

    --bonnie