Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Greg (is that your first name?),
    It sounds like you're really asking how/when to find out that your
    friend is as interested in a relationship as you are. One of your
    best bets is to ask your friend -- but do so in an open-ended way
    that doesn't put her on the spot.  You might say that it's pretty
    early to tell, that you enjoy seeing her, and ask her how she's
    feeling.
    
    Good luck
    Liz 

    Gee.  This is thought provoking.  Perhaps finding
    that your individual definitions for "how much time"
    are compatible will be a clue to how compatible over-
    all you are as a couple. (did that make any sense?)
    
    When my SO and I first started seeing each other, we
    were together almost constantly, from the beginning.
    When we weren't together, we were in touch by elec-
    tronic mail or telephone.  The only "dates" that we
    made were to set aside times NOT to be together.  It
    just sort of happened that way, by unwritten agreement.
    
    We are still together as much as possible.  We come to
    work together, have lunch together, visit each other
    during breaks, communicate by mail...as long as we don't
    interfere with each other's job.  And of course we go
    home together.  We spend most of our free time together,
    and when pursuing our individual interests, one misses
    the other.  Things are nicer when we share them.
    
    Some folks thing we are together TOO much.  But, it works
    for us.   The wedding is in July.
    
    

    
    re: .2 
    
    	Eagles run out of conversation??  Surely not!  Not the Eagle
    I know and love!  :^) 
    
    re: .0
    
    	I think this is an individual issue that will depend on the
    people involved.  What might suit you and the person your dating
    might not be what would fit for some other couple.  I think it's
    reasonable to discuss it!  But then I tend to attempt to discuss
    anything and everything and sometimes don't get much cooperation.
    
    	I agree with .3 as well.  Some people are so involved in their
    work that they leave little time for a social life.  So if one is
    wanting to spend a lot of time with that person, that may not work.
    Hence they may feel "incompatible" just because of differing views/
    needs of how much time they spend together. Some people want to
    be together constantly, others need "their own space"...  This is
    something that you can try to find out by trial and error or just
    come right out and discuss it!
    
    	Myra

    	Greg,
    
    	Good point.  You don't want to be too pushy, yet you want her
    	to know that you are interested.
    
    	My suggestion would be that when you are ending a date with
    	her say something to let her know that you are interested: 
    	"I'll call you in a few days."  Or:  "I had a real nice time,
    	let's get together some night this week."   Or later on let
    	her know that you enjoy her company and give her a call during
    	the week to know that you are thinking of her.  It always
    	helps to know that you are being thought of.
    
    	Just try to let her know that you are sincere when you say that
    	you would like to see her again and that you had a nice time.
                                                
    	Once you feel comfortable enough to talk about the issue you	
    	will probably have a good laugh about it because she is probably
    	feeling the same way (not knowing what is enough).
    
    	Good luck!
    
    							Carol

    Re:3 Nancy, The weddings in June!!! Is this and invite?
    
                            REK
    
    Wioll you be "back on your kness again?"
    
    Whens the divorce?  |-}

    It usually works well to make it abundantly clear that you enjoy
    seeing/speaking with the other person (ie. when you call her, say
    "I've really been looking forward to talking to you, or when you
    see her, "I always enjoy the time I spend with you so much and I
    look forward to it.")  Then it is obvious you would like to spend
    more time together, but doesn't put any pressure on her to respond
    in kind -- but if she feels the same way, she will.
    
    Also, never say "I'll call you this week" unless you intend to do
    just that, preferably before the half-way point.  

    On the strictly practical level: 
    
    When you're getting to know someone, "I'll call you next week" tends to
    be the polite lead-in to cooling down the relationship -- a nice way of
    indicating that you had an okay time but you don't really think there's
    a future in it. Even if you do call back when you say you will, this
    phrasing can create an impression of being less interested than you
    are.  

    Try being more specific in your leave-taking. You don't have to make
    arrangements for the next date right on the spot (though if things are
    going well you might want to) but be specific about when you'll call.
    
    I find this to be true in the early stages of friendships with
    both sexes as well as with dates.

    --bonnie
    

    With friends or potential lovers, I am very bad at noticing whether
    or not we are spending too much time together.  The only expression
    that works on me (other than the VERY direct approach...) is direct
    eye contact and "thanks, I *really* enjoyed myself, this was *very*
    nice", etc, etc.
    
    This is still too direct for some people, though.
    
    Lee

    .12 sounds like a perfect example of the kind of timing differences
    the base note wants to work out. 
    
    Couples don't need the same amount of contact, especially telephone
    contact. Finding out how much each of you needs is one of the touchier
    parts of establishing a new relationship.
    
    There are some people who "need" to talk to each other as often as they
    can.  They may need reassurance the other cares, or they may simply
    want to share events with the other.  Even telling the other that
    everything is ordinary and there's nothing to say can be intimate. Or
    maybe you want to talk about things that have nothing to do with
    work -- a new astronomical discovery, last night at the opera, any
    of the thousands of things people are interested in.
    
    Other people are much more independent and don't like telephones. They
    get together when they have something to say.
    
    Neither is right or wrong, it's just a matter of individual style
    or pacing. If one of you is a frequent-contact style while the other
    is a deeply independent type, and neither of you is willing to adjust
    to the other's pace, you're liable to have problems developing a
    serious relationship. 
    
    And that's not necessarily good or bad, either.  Not every relationship
    has to be serious.
    
    --bonnie

re .0
	Add me to the list of people going through the same thing.
	
re .1
	That sounds good,  only even that requires timing!  It's
	a catch-22 in some ways.

re .4
	The trial and error sounds good,  although one could
	argue that more trial means more likelihood of
	error and I know exactly how Greg feels about being
	afraid of blowing it.

re .5    
	That's exactly what I did when I called mine on Sunday --
	so I hope you're right!
    
re .8
	Maybe we should start a discussion by mail - maybe there are
	lots of us about in this situation!

re .9
	Another one in favour of what I did:  You are certainly making
	me feel less anxious.  Thank you both!  Except that I asked
	her to call me,  minor difference maybe.

re .11
    
>    This is still too direct for some people, though.
	Yes,  I must admit I was more encouraged by the fact that she
	was if anything the first to be direct.

re .12
	Sounds like sound advice,  my friend is quite independent
	and has a busy career often jetting all over the place,
	so I certainly had better not be too demanding.

Simon.

    
    
    I beg your pardon!  Who are YOU to determine what MY (or
    anyone else's legitimate 'needs' are?)  Please don't de-
    cide for others what their needs should be, and use mani-
    pulative behavior to 'teach' them to feel/respond as YOU
    think they should!
    
                       Deb
    
    

    re: needs
    
    Needs can also be fulfilled by various people. I have needs that
    my hubby is not equipped to fulfill [no snide comments here :-)].
    For instance, I need to have someone ask me the right questions
    about my feelings sometimes. I have female friends for that sort
    of thing.
    	Mez
    

    Good point, Mez.  We simply cannot expect any one person, no matter
    how significant, to meet every single one of our needs. It doesn't
    matter whether that person is spouse, lover, child, or friend, that
    one person can't be everything to us.  
    
    If someone expects us to be everything to them?  It can't be done.
    You'll wind up drained and exhausted from trying to twist yourself
    into all the shapes the other person expects, and then you really
    will fail them.  In the end, you have to be yourself.  If it's a
    healthy relationship, that's what the other person loves you for
    -- for your self, for who you are, not for what you are or what
    you do or how often you call.  If you start being yourself, and
    the other person can't handle it and ends the relationship . . .
    well, there's always that risk.  But the risk that you'll exhaust
    yourself, fail your lover, and wind up hating the other person for
    doing that to you seems to be a lot higher.
    
    I'm going to go way out on a limb here (maybe I should set a flame
    warning? I don't intend to insult anybody, though, just overgeneralize
    a bit) and say that a person who really NEEDS constant reassurance that
    a relationship is alive is probably a person with problems.  If you
    can't believe in the love without asking the other person to become
    something he or she isn't, you need to look inside yourself and ask
    why.  Is your self-esteem so low that you can't imagine this person
    would really love you?  Are you trying to live through the other person
    because you don't have any activities or interests of your own to talk
    about?  Are you trying to manipulate the relationship to get what you
    want?  
    
    Maybe it's something as simple as needing to develop some of your
    own interests.  If you don't do anything, or think anything, then
    you don't have much to share. 
    
    --bonnie

    Exactly!  
    
    In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you can't be true to yourself,
    if you let yourself be turned into a perfect goose, then you make
    it impossible to deeply truly care about the other person.  Love
    comes out of a whole, complete human being who gives from his or
    her abundance.  If you're hacking yourself into something you're
    not, you don't have yourself to give any more. There's nothing there.
    You have only the front. 
    
    It can be rough working out a relationship between two independent
    people who are together only because they want to be, but as far
    as I'm concerned, what happens when he and I are together is what
    makes this life worthwhile. There's a strength and a joy between
    us that we could never reach alone. 
    
    --bonnie, still discovering new things about her lover/spouse/SO
    after 10 years together