Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    This is an interesting article as very few of the few women who
    climb have ever vocalized their feelings in a climbing article.
    From reading what you have posted here it looks like the article
    may have served Rosie a dual purpose and been a paper for a graduate
    course, as well.  She has certainly done a thorough job of citing 
    research anyway.
    
    I want to preface any comments I make about the article with some 
    thoughts on women and climbing, though.  I have been climbing for 
    about 12 years and have climbed with about a dozen women in that
    time.  I have some mixed feeling related to women in climbing that 
    are tied to some reservations about climbing itself.
    
    I'd qualify those reservations as relating to "hard" rock climbing.  
    My own belief is that the leading edge of rock climbing is driven by
    ego.  I have found that ego can find both good and bad expression 
    through climbing.  It is inevitably some combination of both that 
    drives the top climbers.  
    
    The bad expression of ego takes the form of ruthless competitiveness 
    for new climbs, derision of others, an overwhelming need for attention 
    or to perform, questionable ethics and style, and risk taking beyond 
    the edge of sanity.  The good ego expression can be seen in personal 
    quests for style, endurance, perseverance, and quality of experience.  
    It can be found in climbers who help each other and work off of one 
    another, instead of to spite each other.

    In the general scene of the leading edge, the f**kness of the bad
    ego has always been more prevalent than the good.  It is an element
    of climbing I have always despised and I find it very disappointing
    when a woman is sucked into what is essentially an expression of a 
    bad male ego-trip.  It's like I expect a woman to have more sense
    than that, I guess.  But, understand I mean women into the climbing
    "scene" more than into just climbing itself - fortunately, they can
    be separable entities.  "Equal status" in the climbing scene may
    well represent a new low for women.
    
    As far as the physical side of climbing is concerned, there is really
    little or no reason for women not to blow the doors off males on
    rock.  Men have high center of gravities,  bad strength-to-weight
    ratios, and are not exactly optimized for the stress of prolonged 
    muscular activity.  Over the years, I have taught hundreds of women
    and men to climb, and walk tightrope as well.  Women invariably
    learn and master both far faster than men.  Height means nothing
    in climbing.  I think Rosie Andrews is right not to look to the
    physical domain for the prime differences between men and women climbers.

    The psychology of climbing has been explored ad nauseum throughout
    history with many hilarious results.  Rosie seems to be discussing 
    broader, more relavent, issues about being a woman that I'm in little
    position to discuss, but I would comment that there is a great
    diversity of approaches, styles, perceptions, and personal
    philosophies in climbing that relate to where, how, and with whom you 
    learn to climb and it is difficult to interpret Rosie's article
    without knowing these things about her.
    
    She talks at length about fear and risk-taking.  A great deal of
    the fear people experience when climbing is rooted in perceptions
    of risks that may, or may not, be real.  But from a personal standpoint,
    you are taking a risk anytime you proceed in the face of fear -
    regardless of whether the fear is grounded in reality or not.  But,
    I sense that males generally end up adults with more experience in
    both the vertical world and in testing the limits of physical
    self-abuse.  This accumulated experience can give a male a better
    basis for judging the risk of a given situation and so the accompanying
    level of fear may be less.  On the otherhand, excessive confidence
    about this experience in assessing risks gets males into a lot of deep 
    sneakers.  I feel women just have to do a little catch up in terms
    of figuring out what works and what hurts.  It is tough for anyone
    to overcome fear without knowledge and experience.
    
    I believe Rosie is most on target when she talks about climbing
    forcing women (and men) to take total personal responsibility for 
    themselves. This is especially so when climbing with other women.
    The women I have climbed extensively with, have all learned the 
    technology of climbing from men, but have learned to become real 
    climbers by themselves and with other women.  
    
    Most men (olympic gymnastic coaches aside) don't have the empathy, 
    knowledge of the female anatomy, or a sense of how women apply their 
    minds/bodies to physical tasks to make sound judgements about how to 
    help a woman learn to climb.  This situation is further complicated by 
    many of the female/male dynamics Rosie cites.
    
    As far as "accomplishments should be measured in relation to the
    sport, not one's gender, and women should not expect public praise
    for doing routes done by men ten years ago" is concerned - I think
    "public praise" is what is totally f**ked about the climbing scene.
    
    My own belief is that climbers' accomplishments should be measured
    in relation to themselves (self-defining), not one's gender, not
    the sport.  (It's vertical dance the way I look at it - not a sport;
    but the mentality a lot of folks approach it with does degrade it to 
    that level.)

    Women make damn good climbers when they want to be.  If any of you
    get interested in it, though, I hope it's for the beauty of movement,
    the intensity of expression, and the thrill of sharing the vertical
    environment with another person.
    
    Joe H.

    re -1:
    
    Thanks for entering all that, Joe!
    
    I also entered a slightly edited version in the CLIMBING notes file.
    
    I forgot to say that if anyone would like a copy of the article, mail
    me.
    
    	-Ellen

            <<< RAINBO::$2$DUA11:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics Of Interest To Women >-
================================================================================
Note 247.3                  Women and rock climbing                       3 of 3
DAMSEL::RENO "On the 8th Day God Created SIBERIAN H" 81 lines  31-MAR-1987 12:36
                      -< I think I can, I think I can... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To initially take a simplistic view, if I may, the whole idea here is
    undoubtedly the theory of mind over matter.  I had a taste of that type
    of accomplishment when I quit smoking last June.  While the overall,
    semi-conscious effort was on this theory, the conscious effort
    was on the "take one day at a time" theory.   For anyone who has tried 
    quitting, successful or not, you know what I mean when I say the mental
    addiction is worse than the physical.  I am finding that this holds 
    true for anything, including climbing (be aware that I've only been 
    climbing once, am not an athletic person, but have found an unusual 
    physical and mental pleasure in this activity and am looking forward 
    to going again).
    
    The mind over matter issue is limited, though.  Some woman, no matter
    how much they "think" they can, will never lift 500 pounds.  The
    same holds true for men, but, naturally, the object and task would
    be relative.  Anyway, we're discussing women...
    
    I agree that there is definitely a certain degree of overcoming
    fear and dealing with risk-taking in climbing.  But, it goes even
    further.  As a child, I was the kid who always wanted to go on the
    biggest rides at the carnival (most of my female friends "shyed"
    away).  It wasn't a matter of my making a conscious, or even
    unconscious, effort towards overcoming fear at all -- it was the
    sheer excitement of tempting myself into a chance for more excitement.
    I was never once afraid to stand in line for The Hurricaine or
    whatever.  Instead, it was feeling those "butterflies" in the gut
    that pushed me and then, after "surviving", it was pure exhileration
    knowing that I was able to have such control over my feelings; that
    I could tell myself that the ride was dangerous and, at the same
    time, convince myself that I'd be all right.  That mental conflict
    is what made me get back in that line again.  When that conflict
    is at its height, that's when I decide to "go for it" and that's
    what will bring me to a more difficult climb next time.

    My first two attempts up a rock were not great...not even good.
    But, when finally making the last attempt after truly wanting to
    quit in the middle, I felt that I could push myself even further
    on another climb...if I *wanted* to -- i.e. I allowed myself to
    stop at that point because I didn't want to physically exert myself
    anymore.  It was not real fear, but the knowledge that I could claim
    defeat to myself and in front of others and not have to make any
    excuses...after all, I was female and I wasn't expected to do well.
    
    Climbing, being a non-contact sport (sorry, Joe, but even we don't 
    like it, it fits the definition of "sport"  :-)   ), is competition 
    again oneself -- your ego, your daring yourself, manages to push you 
    further up the side of a mountain.  Praise, which, I believe, someone 
    said is unnecessary, in fact nurtures the ego.  What's wrong with
    someone being known as the best climber in the world, if it reinforces 
    your own feelings of personal success?  Besides, being the best can
    often lead to opportunities which you can't obtain on your own.  Who
    do you think a government is more apt to support, especially
    financially, in an expedition -- an unknown, or the best in the world?

    I don't think that women climbers who won't take lead decide so
    because they're less agressive.  I think that just by virtue of
    being there, they're probably equally agressive.  Instead, I'd 
    say it was because of their "nurturing" qualities which they may
    or may not recognize.  I don't want to argue whether or not this
    nurturing is instinctual, environmental, or behavioral.  I happen
    to believe that most women are more understanding and generous --
    key elements to "motherhood".  Because of this, they're more apt
    to "allow" (again, consciously or not) the man to take the lead to
    satisfy himself, his ego and his need to "protect" and play the
    traditional dominant role.    

    To be honest, I don't think that a female friend could have even
    tempted me to go climbing (I went with two men).  I, probably like
    a lot of women (I can feel the "heat" now!), needed to learn the         
    male dominated activity by a male friend rather than female friend.      
    Besides wanting to know what all the excitement was about, I guess       
    I also recognized it as another chance to tempt the boundaries of        
    the neverending male/female conflict from all sides -- physical,         
    mental, emotional -- not to determine a winner, but more to be
    challenged.   
    
    So, while my internal conflict kept me going and will bring me 
    back, it was the male/female conflict that got me there.  There 
    aren't too many things in life that can do that...are there? 
    
    -debbie
    

    re Debbi:
    
    >To be honest, I don't think that a female friend could have even
    >tempted me to go climbing (I went with two men).  I, probably like
    >a lot of women (I can feel the "heat" now!), needed to learn the         
    >male dominated activity by a male friend rather than female friend.      

    I guess I don't understand this.  I went to learn rock climbing
    because it looked like fun and because I could go places that I
    couldn't before.  I did this with no encouragement from anyone,
    man or woman.  I think that for me this is one *key* thing for me
    - to know I did this *on my own* knowing no one and nothing about
    it to begin with.  And now I have all sorts of friends of the best
    kind, of all ages (21-62), both sexes, of all climbing abilities.

    When I went on my first continuous climb as a second, I tried to
    find a woman to lead me rather than a man for the reasons stated
    by Rosie.  With a man, I might be more tempted to rely on his doing
    things for me that I should do for myself.  With a woman, I would
    feel less dependent, more equal, and, above all, much more of a need
    to "prove" myself which would force me to try things and push myself
    when I might not with a man.

    Oh, and BTW, I'm teaching my SO rock climbing this year!  Now that's
    turning the tables on the gender-specifics in climbing.  And another
    woman I know who took it up by herself has got *her* new SO taking the
    course too.
        
    An aside:  I consider rock climbing a "sport" in the same way that
    gymnastics is a sport.  Gymnastics and rock climbing have quite
    a bit in common, really.
    
    	-Ellen

    As a matter of fact, I *did* it on my own.  Yes, I was invited to
    go, but *I* decided to actually try it.  I could have just sat there
    and taken pictures of the birds!  :-)
    
    The point is that I feel more challenged when the activity is male
    dominated.  That doesn't mean I'd try everything, including football!
    I just enjoy doing different and unusual things.  In addition, I've 
    always related better to men than women.  And, as time goes on, I 
    find that my male friends are more dependable.  That's right, *more* 
    dependable when it comes to friendship and its implications/expectations. 
    It shows to go, then, that I would be more willing to learn new
    things from and trust a male friend with major personal issues 
    (*not* an acquaintence) than female.  
    
    But, this is beginning to have little to do with climbing.  All
    I know is that, when I finally made it up, *I* did it myself.  I
    had verbal support and, of course, the mighty belay, but it was
    my mental attitude that got me there and my mental attitude that
    will get me up a more difficult climb next time.  
    
    I know myself well enough that I could never do an Everest by myself,
    even if I had the talent.  I need, like most people, male or female 
    (and *most* won't admit it!), others around me, or at least the 
    availability of others.  Being independent mentally and being
    independent physically are two very different things and mix as well 
    as oil and water.  A person can truly only be one.  The *very* unique, 
    such as Susan Butcher (and even she had her dogs), can only come close 
    to being a cross between the two.  
    
    I'm just admitting that I can handle the mental, but not the physical 
    solitude.  Both can be fulfilling.  But, when I take on something like 
    climbing and learn, with each climb, the "thrill of victory", I want 
    someone there to share the mental and emotional excitement with me.
    If that someone should be a friend (more gratifying than a strange 
    instructor), make it a male friend.  There's too many inconsistencies 
    with female friends to take a chance on such a great experience.
    
    -debbie
    

    re -1:
    
    Well you come climbing with me and we'll see if we can change all
    that maybe.  See the CLIMBING notes file, the note entitled "Teaching
    and Learning" for a note I entered today.
    
    Fact is, for me, anyone who climbs with me (male and female) make
    the best kind of friends.  And the sex really does not matter in
    the least in that respect.  The rock treats us all equally.  I guess
    an analogy is our workplace.  We're all treated equally by the computer
    - we all have bugs, we all have hardware failures, etc.
    
    	-Ellen

 If I were single I would suggest climbing as an excellent icebreaker.

 A climbing pair consists of a leader and a second. The leader is dependent
on the second to hold the rope or 'belay'. The leader generally chooses the
route, puts in the safety gear or 'protection', and sets up the 'belays'.
Most of the risk involved in climbing is taken by the leader. The second
generally has the rope go from their waist up to the leader and can only
fall as far as the rope will stretch. (Next to no fall.) The second is 
responsible for removing the protection the leader places. When the second 
gets up to the ledge where the leader is, the second ties in and hands over 
the gear back to the leader.

 I am explaining all this to help demonstrate that the rope handling and
technical climbing skills may be very different between the second and the
leader.

 If I was to meat a woman I wanted to know better, I would suggest going
climbing. By accepting, she would demonstrate an appreciation for the
outdoors and an 'adventurous' (if that is the right word) attitude. On the 
day, I would find out how she deals with adversity (the vertical world) and
her poise under challenge. She would also demonstrate how committed she
is to trying things - as opposed to a non-serious dabbler who drops things
as soon as they are not easy.

 She would find out some very important things about me. She will find if
I am supportive and effective in helping her when she is in need. Also she 
see will whether I treat her as a climber who is a woman or as a woman who 
is a climber. 

 So many of the challenges and ways to meet the challenges in climbing bring
out important aspects of each others personalities. Seeing the way my SO
reacts to situations we get into (which generally means 'I get us into') has
made me appreciate her so much more. Climbing helps show us what we are from 
what we say and think we are. 


 I will never forget the day we were caught at night below the face on the
old man and the mountain. It was pitch black and she couldn't reach the hold
needed to get over an overhang. I told her it was at 45 degrees up and to the
right and when I said '3', she should jump out into space towards it. I counted
to three, she jumped and got the hold and scrambled up. We hugged at the top 
and scrambled down to the cars and got back to the tent at 10:30. 

 I will always remember that night.


-Tom

    re: .7

White water tandem canoeing is also a great tool for demonstrating
the true personalities involved in a relationship.  I have found 
that whether two people will work together as equals, transferring
control back and forth as necessary or whether one will try to 
maintain constant control becomes apparent quickly on the river.

alison
    

 My SO returned from France for a visit and brought along a copy of Le Paris
Match. Below is the text from an article about a woman rock climber. The 
pictures captured the drama of climbing along with beauty of form. If anyone
would like a copy of the article, send me mail.

-Tom

La Conquerante

Apres Patrick Edlinger c'est maintenant une jeune femme qui etonne l'univers du 
sport. Catherind Destivelle, 25 ans, deja celebre, grace aux <<Carnets de 
l'Aventure>>, par son extraordinaire ascension des gorges du Verdon, s'affirmait
comme l'une des toutes premieres grimpeuses. Elle escaladait <<en tete>>, c'est-
a-dire protegee par une corde et des mousquetons. Aujourd'hui, pour Paris Match,
elle revele un aspect secret de son talent: c'est en solo integral qu'elle
accomplit la conquete du pic <<El Puro>>, dans les monts d'Aragon, au nord de
l'Espagne. Catherine est la seule femme au monde a pratique cette forme de
varappe qui fait la gloire de Patrick Edlinger. Elle grimpe sans aucune 
assurance: un faux mouvement, et c'est la chute mortelle.
Avant d'attaquer cette ascension, Catherine avait <<reconnu>> l'iteneraire en 
utilisat les protections mises en place par les varappeurs espagnols. Elle
avait constate que les pitons n'etaient pas fiables. Car la difficulte majeur
de cette escalade tient moins dans les problems techniques - ce ne sont pas les
prises apparentes qui manquent - que dans la nature du rocher a gravir: des
blocs de silex enchasses dans la terre et qui peuvent se detacher au moindre
effort. Pendant son ascension, Catherine, collee contre le mur rocheux, 
s'elevant a la seule force des poignets, n'a pas pu eviter la chute d'une
pierre qui lui a fait eclater la levre superieure. Son sangfroid lui a permis
de ne pas perdre l'equilibre. Un autre danger la guettait: d'impressionnants
vautours volaient a quelques metres d'elle, lui faisant redouter a chaque 
instant de mettre la main dans un des nids dont la paroi est truffee, et
d'etre attaquee par une femelle en colere.
 Tout en demeurant tres feminine, Catherine est dotee, a la suite d'un
entrainement intesif et grace a la pratique de son metier -kinesitherapeute-
d'une musculature impressionnante. La, elle a surtout fait appel a la 
puissance de ses bras. Victime d'une fracture du bassin en juillet dernier, 
elle souffre encore quand elle prend certains appuis sur la jambe droite et
elle ne voulait pas courir le risque d'une defaillance fatale.
 Cette legere sequelle ne l'a pas empechee de frenchir avec facilite le
terrible surplomb situe a mi-parcours. Partie a 9 heures par temps gris et
groid, elle atteignait ce redoutable obstacle une heure plus tard. Apres 
l'avoir vaincu, elle a doute quelques instants d'avoir la force de parvenir
au sommet, tant elle avait puise dans ses reserves d'energie. Mais elle n'a
jamais eu peur de tomber: <<Je ne joue pas avec ma vie. Le solo integral,
c'est le bonheur de grimper en liberte, pas la roulette russe. Si j'etais
inconsciente, je serais deja morte.>>
 Tout la-haut, au sommet du piton rocheux, la miniscule silhouette doree se 
redresse, bras leves vers le ciel, en signe de victoire. Elle sauterait meme 
de joie si l'etroitesse de la platforme d'El Puro, ce pic des montagnes 
d'Aragon, ne lui interdisait ce genre de fantasie. Car Catherine Destivelle 
est radieuse.
 Elle vient de grimper en solo integral un pic de trois cents mentres. Un 
exploit dont peu d'hommes peuvent se vanter et qu'aucune femme au monde 
n'a realise avant elle. Elle en a bave, bien sur; bien plus qu'elle ne 
l'imaginait. La paroi tres friable, composee de roches de silex precairement
enchasses dans la terre en menacant de se detacher a chaque pas, l'a obligee
a redoubler de vigilance et a assuer chacune de ses prises. Elle a meme recu,
au millieu de son ascension, une pierre que lui a ouvert la levbre superieure.
Sous le choc, elle a failli tout lacher et s'ecraser duex cents metres plus
bas. Maintenant, les difficultes sont oubliees. La menance des vautours 
olanant a quelques metres de la paroi, le froid mordant de sette fin de mois
d'octobre, ces muscles douloureux, ses doigts entabmes par le silex ne sont
p[lus que de mauvais souvenirs. Et elle reva deja d'autres ascensions, d'autres
difficultes. Pourquoi pas le voies extremes du Verdon, celles qu seuls 
quelques grimpeurs osnt capables de vaincre?
 De ce cotte-la, Catherine n'a aucun complexe. Ce qu'un garcon fait, elle
doit pouvoir le faire. C'est meme comme ca qu'elle est venue a la grande
escalade, our relever le defi lance par Pierre Richard, un de ses amis 
varappeurs. A siexe ans, elle franchissant defa en tete, c'est-a-dire assuree
d'en bas par son partenaire, des voies sur lesquelles aucune fille n'avait
jamais pose le chausson. C'etait l'epoque heroique ou elle grimpait avec
un casque et un sac a dos, emportant une lampe torche et des vetements chauds
pur le cas ou la nuit l'obligerait a bivouaquer sur la paroi. Ces premieres
decouvertes du monde vertical constituent pur elle la grande revelation.
Finis les concertos de Haydn et de Bach qu'elle joue a la flute traversiere 
au sein de l'orchestre du conservatoire de Savigny-su-Orge. Elle sera grimpeuse.
Grimpeuse et kinesitherapeute, pur assurer le quotidien. Car le rocher n'a
jamais nourri ses adeptes. Alors, entre l'ascension de la Directe americaine
des Drus et de la face nord de l'Aile Froide, dans l'Osian, Catherine decroche
ses diplomes et commence a reparer les chevilles foulees, les epaules deboitees,
les dos casses. Pas facile, entre deux clients, de poursuivre l'entrainement. 
D'autant que Catherine est une varappeuse d'instinct. Ce qu'elle aime
par-dessus tout, c'est escalader des falaises a vue, c'est-a-dire cans avoir
reconnu a l'avance les difficultes du parcours. Sentir la voie, trouver au
premier coup d'oeil le passage, le bon mouvement, c'est ca son plaisir. Et
pur ca, il faut une condition physique a toute epreuve, une musculatire et
une souplesse hors du commun.
 C'est alors que la chance se manifeste en la personne du producteur de 
l'emission de television <<Enigmes du bout de monde>>. Il cherche une fille
jolie, astucieuse, capable de grimper une falaise de soixante metres en dix
minutes tout en repondant, en direct, au questions que lui pose l'animateur.
Catherine releve le defi et s'en sort si bien qu'elle devient conseillere
technique de l'emission. Pour la tele, elle va a Bali, a Java, a Singapour,
descend en rappel l'immeuble du Credit Lyonnais a la Defense, devient 
cascadeuse pur doubler l'heroine du feuilleton <<Dorothee danseuse de corde>>.
Elle peut enfin vivre de son art. RObert Nicod, un grand ami de Patric Edlinger,
lui propose la vedette du film <<E pericoloso sporgersi>> qu'il compte tourner
dans les gorges du Verdon. Pendant deux mois, elle s'entraine sur les 
intineraires les plus prestigieux, le Bombe de Pichenibule, le toit du Mandarin,
et signe, a raison de cinq heures d'escalade par jour, la choregraphie verticale
de ce superbe court-metrage. A vingt-cinq ans, elle peut enfin ses presenter
comme grimpeuse professionnelle. Oh! ce n'est pas la fortune, mais elle 
gagne de quoi se nourrir et metter de l'essence dans sa voiture. Il ne lui
en faut pas plus pour assouvir sa passion pur l'escalade. Le 14 juillet 1985,
Catherine se retrouve au pied d'une voie de l'Envers des Aiguilles, au-dessus
de Chammonix, en compagnie de son ami Lothar Mauch. Ils ont deroule les 
cordes, prepare les mousquetons. Elle s'apprete a attaquer la voie, mais 
se repproche trop du rocher. Cous ses pieds, le pont de neige s'effondre et
Catherine atterrit, trente cinq metres plus bas, au fond de la crevasse.
Quand l'helicoptere de la gendarmerie l'emmene sur une civiere, elle souffre
d'une double fracture du bassin, de fractures-tassements de deux vertibres
lombaires, d'une fracture des cotes et d'une entorse de la cheville. Sans 
parler des points de suture au crane... Mais il en faudrait plus pour la 
faire renoncer a l'escalade. Apres seulement deux semaines de lit, elle
claudique deja entre deux bequilles. Suffisamment pour se trainer au pied
des rochers de la vallee de Chamonix et reprendre l'entrainement en prenant
bien soin de ne pas peser sur sa jambe droite! Seule consequence de l'accident:
elle sait qu'elle n'a pas droit a la chute. Un simple <<vol>>, meme retenue
par une corde d'alpiniste et elle risque de se casser a nouveau le bassin.
Qu'a cela ne tienne: puisque la corde ne lui sert plus a rien, pourquoi ne
pas grimper en solo, sans aucune protection? 
 Pour avoir deja tate de cette forme extremem d'escalade, elle sait qu'elle
trouve la son plus grand plaisir. Totalement libre, entierement responsable
d'elle-meme, elle eprouve le honheur supremem en communiant avec la rocher.
Alors, pourquoi ne pas mettre sur pied cette expedition espagnole pur gravir
les tours de Roglos qu'elle a approchees a l'epoque ou elle s'encombrait
de cordes et de mousquetons.
 Pour assurer le succes de cette aventure, Catherine s'est astreinte pendnat
trois mois a un entrainement draconien: trois cents tractions pur jour
chargee d'un lest de trente kilos, deux heures de musculation des doigts sur
une poutre installee dans son appartement parisien, et reproduisant tous les
types de prises, sans parler des exercices d'elongation pour retrouver une 
souplesse perdue dans l'accident. Elle s'est aussi impose un regime dietetique
strict a base de cereales completes, legumes, poisson et viande blanche 
excluant la viande rouge, les graisses et les sucres. Dans sa specialite, la
reussite est a ce prix.
 Aujourd'hui, Catherine savoure sa victoire. Mais elle est bien decidee a 
ne pas en rester la. Elle sait que pour vivre de sa passon, elle doit 
s'affirmer comme une des meilleures grimpeuses du monde, tous sexes confondus.
Elle avoue bien humblement qu'elle doit progresser si elle veut depasser les
prouesses des dix garcons qu'elle considere rettraper, au sommet de son art, 
Patric Edlinger lui-meme. <<Mais ca, reconnait-elle, c'est un autre reve.
Edlinger, il est tellement fort et tellement doue...>>

    I agree with .7 and .8 sounds reasonable (I haven't gone tandem
    canoeing).  But, I wouldn't suggest either as a first date.  It
    really can be an intense event, in addition to being just plain
    fun.  Once two people are familiar enough with each other's basic
    personalities (you will probably find out a *lot* more, too!), then
    it definitely is an "icebreaking" experience.
    
    -debbie

    I'm game to translate the article in .9 
    (it's laundry night anyway <sigh>)
    

    Actually, tandem white-water canoing brings out the bossy big sister
    in me.
    
    [See image of me and my partner, Phylis, floating down backwards
    on flatwater after leaving canoe marks on a rock or two, both of
    us yelling at each other...]
    
    I would be hesitant to subject _any_one to my canoing behaviour
    if I didn't know they would return in kind.... :-)
    
    Lee

    re: .9  FWIW   [Let it be known that the writers at Paris Match have
                    brought new meaning to the words "leaden prose".]
    
The Conquerer

According to Patrick Edlinger, a young woman is currently astonishing the
world of sports.  Catherine Destivelle, 25 years old, already famous thanks
to "Adventure Notebook" and her extraordinary climbing of the Verdun Gorges,
takes her place as one of the top female climbers.  She scaled in lead,
that is protected by a rope and hooks.  Today, for Paris Match, she shows
a hidden aspect of her talent: completely alone she conquered the peak of
"El Puro" in the Aragon range in Northern Spain.  Catherine is the only
woman in the world to practice this form of rock climbing which has made
Patrick Edlinger famous.  She climbs without a safety net: one false move
and it is a deadly fall.

Before attacking this climb, Catherine did some reconnaissance work of the
route, using the protections already put in place by Spanish climbers.
She found that the pegs were not trustworthy.  The major difficulty of this
ascent lay less in the technical problems -- there was no lck of available
grips -- than in the nature of the crag to be climbed:  blocks of flint
mounted in the earth that were capable of becoming detached with the slightest
effort.  During her ascent, Catherine, glued to a wall of rock, working
her way up by the sheer strength of arm [metaphorically, by sheer hard work],
could not avoid a falling roch which split her upper lip.  Her composure
allowed her to keep her balance.  Another danger lay in wait for her: imposing
vultures were flying about just a few meters from her, making her constantly
wonder if she was about to stick a hand in one of their nests scattered
over the rock face and be attacked by an angry female [of the species].

All the while remaining entirely feminine, Catherine is endowed with an
impressively muscular build as a result of intensive training and the practice
of her profession as a kinesitherapist.  In this climb, she mostly relied
on her arm strength.  Victim of a fractured pelvis last July, she still
suffers when she puts certain pressure on her right leg and didn't want
to run the risk of a fatal collapse.  This slight after effect did not prevent
her from easily clearing the awesome overhang in the middle of the climb.
An hour after her 9 am departure in the grey and cold, she reached this
formidable obstacle.  After having vanquished it, she doubted for a moment
or two that she would have the strength to reach the summit, so much had
she dipped into her energy reserves.  But she never feared falling "I don't
play with my life.  Solo (climbing) is the happiness of climbing freely,
not Russian Roulette.  If I were oblivious to that, I would already be dead."

Way at the top of the rocky peak, the miniscule, golden silhouette straightens
out, arms stretched toward the sky in a victory sign.  She would jump for
joy if the narrowness of El Puro's platform, the summit of the Aragon range,
did not prohibit this sort of fantasy.  Catherine Destivelle is radiant.

She has just climbed a peak of 300 meters alone.  An exploit few men can
boast of and no woman has done before.  She had a tough time doing it, to
be sure, even tougher than she'd imagined.  The crumbly rock face, composed
of flint precariously couched in earth, threatening to come apart at each
step had obliged her to be twice as wary and to steady each of her grips.
 In the middle of the climb her upper lip was split by a falling rock. 
She nearly lost her grip entirely and fell 200 meters.  Now the difficulties
have been forgotten.  The menace of the vultures flying near the rock face,
the biting cold of this late October day, the sore muscles, the fingers
scratched by the flint are only bad memories.  Already she dreams of other
climbs, other challenges.  Why not the extreme heights of Verdun, those
which few climbers dare to conquer.

From this point of view Catherine has no complexes.  Whatever a boy can
do, she must be able to do.  That is how she came to do this climb, on a
dare from Pierre Richard, one of her climbing friends.  At 16 years
old she already lead climbed, ie blazed trails for her partner below going
where no girl had ever gone before.  It was a heroic time when she climbed 
with a helmet and a backpace, carrying a lantern and warm clothes in case 
night obliged her to camp out on the face.  These first discoveries of the 
vertical world were a great revelation for her.  Finished were the Hayden 
and Bach concertos on which she played the lead flute part for the orchestra 
of the Conservatory at Savigny-sur-Orge.  She would be a climber.  Climber 
and kinesitherapist, to take care of day-to-day life.  Because mountains have
never nourished their followers.  So between climbs of the "Directe americaine
des Drus" and the northern face of the "Aile Froide" [sorry, don't know
these places], Catherine hangs her diplomas on the wall and sets about fixing
twisted ankles, dislocated shoulders, and broken backs.  Not easy, between
clients, to keep in training.  As much as Catherine is an instinctive climber.
 What she loves above all is to scale cliffs at first sight, ie without
having studied the climbs difficulties in advance.  To sense the trail ,
to find at first glance the passage, the good move, that is her pleasure.
 For that it is necessary to have a physique ready for any test, a strength
and suppleness that is out of the ordinary.

So it was that luck manifested itself in the form of the producer of the
TV show "Enigmas at the End of the Earth".  He was looking for a pretty,
astute girl capable of clmbing a 60 meter high cliff in 10 minutes all the
while answering, live, any questions the star of the show put to her.
Catherine took up the challenge and acquitted herself of it so well that
she became technical consultant of the show.  For TV she went to Bali, Java,
Singapore, rappelled down the Credit Lyonnaise building in the "Defense"
[quarter on the outskirts of Paris, mostly business buildings.  CL is a
bank, presumably a good sized building.], became stuntwoman for the heroine
of the series "Dorothy, Tightrope Walker".  At last she could live her art.
 Robert Nicod, a good friend of Patrick Edlinger, proposed that she star
in the film "E pericoloso sporgersi" [sorry, Italian isn't one of mine]
which he counted on filming in the Verdun Gorges.  For two months she trained
on the most prestigious routes "the bomb of Pichenibule", "the roof of the
Mandarin" and created, after 5 hours of cimbing a day, the vertical
choreography of this superb short [film].  At 25 years she is at last a
professional climber.  Oh!  It's not a fortune, but she earns her living.
 She doesn't need much more than appeasing her appetite for climbing.  On
July 4, 1985 Catherine found herself at the foot of the "Envers des Aiguilles"
above Chamonix, in the company of her friend Lothar Mauch.  They unpacked
their rops an dprepared their hooks.  She prepared to start the climb, but
got too close to the edge.  Beneath her feet the snow melted and Catherine
landed 30 meters below in the bottom of a crevice.  When the police helicopter
took her on  stretcher, she was suffering a double fracture of the pelvix,
fractures and compression of two lumbar vertebrae, a fracture rib, and a
twisted ankle.  That's without mentioning the stitches on her cranium. 
But it sould take more than that to make Catherine give up climbing.  After
only two weeks of bedrest, she started limping on two crutches.  That was
sufficient to start training at the foot of the mountains in the valley
of Chamonix, being very careful not to put weight on her right leg!.  Only
consequence of the accident :  she cannot risk a fall.  A simple freefall,
even restricted by an alpinist's rope, and she risks breaking her pelvis
again.  Since it doesn't matter, the rope can do nothing for her, why not
climb alone, without protection?

To have already tried this extreme form of climbing, she knows she has found
her greatest pleasure.  Totally free, entirely responsible for herself,
she feels the supreme happiness of communicating with the mountain.  Why
not start on this Spanish expedition to climb the towers of Roglas which
she once approached during the period she was encumbered with ropes and
picks.

To ensure the success of this adventure, Catherine subscribed to a draconian
training schedule for 3 months:  300 pull-ups a day of at least 30 kilograms,
two hours of finger exercises on a special beam simulating many kinds of
grips that she had installed in her Paris apartment, without mentioning
the stretching exercises to restore a suppleness lost in the accident. 
She also imposed upon herself a strict diet based on whole cereals, vegetables,
fish, and white meat, no red meat, fat, or sugar.  In her speciality, this
is the cost of success.

Today Catherine savours her victory.  But she has made up her mind not to
rest on her laurels.  She knows that in order to live her passion, she must
establish herself as one of the best climbers in the world, regardless of
gender.  She humbly asserts that she has to improve if she wants to overtake
the prowess of the 10 boys that she wishes to catch up to, and at the summit
of the art, Patrick Edlinger himself.  "But that," she realizes "Is another
dream.  Edlinger is so very strong and gifted..."

    "All the while remaining entirely feminine"??? 
    

    I was delighted with the story (making allowances for the journalistic
    style!); it pleases me to know that women are making a place for
    themselves in the "These People Are Nuts" club! 
    
    What impresses me most is that she seems to have had extensive
    news coverage the whole time - or was the description of her "victory
    stance" a bit of color? Anyway, I have always preferred to undertake
    physical challenges without any witnesses. If I knew somebody was
    filming me I'd be too afraid of making a mistake to progress at
    all.
    
    (Lest you think I'm a secret rock-climber or anything, I must mention
    that the last significant "physical challenge" I undertook was learning
    to ride my bicycle at age 13!)
    
    -b

    Thank you, Tom and Helen, for typing all of that in.
    
    	-Ellen

    Climbing and journalism at their worst.
    
    This woman might be a fine human being and I can't even begin to
    guess what she's really like from this article, but free-soloing 
    (climbing without a rope) on a dare is free-soloing for the wrong 
    (really, the very worst) reasons.

    A lot of the babble of this article is just very bad journalism;
    some is representative of the current climbing scene in Europe 
    (too oppressive to discuss); and rest is people climbing for reasons
    that would make me want to avoid climbing with them.  For that matter,
    I don't even like to be on the same rock as this type of action.
    
    The socialization of climbing in Europe happened long ago, it's
    only recently that americans have started prostituting climbing
    for money on a grand scale.  My friends and I have been watching
    it happen for the last ten years.  Sad at best - an environmental
    disaster at worst.
    
    Do you know what most people who make their living off of climbing
    are?
    
    BBBBBOOOORRRRIIINNNGGGG.......
    
    At least old skiers die with dignity and grace.  Old professional
    climbers die ungracefully and ugly - even when they die naturally.

    Pretty unfair to call all that make a living out of climbing to
    be "boring".  You, of all people, a dedicated climber for your own
    interests, should realize that any climber, whether or not they
    gain financial profits, are a special breed -- there is an inner
    force that propels them.  If they can profit out of it, then all
    the better.  It's much like marathon runners.  Most of them do it
    just to complete it.  But, why shouldn't they have prize money, too?
    Others are profiting from their "blood, sweat and tears".  Shouldn't
    they get a share?  Their 9 to 5 job sustains them, but, obviously,
    their running (climbing) is their *life*!
           
    -debbie

This looked like the best place to post the announcement.

WGBH (channel 2 in Boston) will be rebroadcasting "K2 - The Elusive Summit"
Saturday night at 11:30pm on their "VCR Theatre".  This program is a part of
their "Adventure" series and is Julie Tullis' account of her second attempt
to conquer that mountain.  I saw it Monday night, and highly recommend it.

Jill

    Re: .19
    
    Is it worth mentioning that Julie Tullis died on the way back
    down from the mountain?
    					Steve

re .20

It's worth mentioning as long as you also mention that she died on the
return trip from her SUCCESSFUL third attempt, after achieving the goal
that was so very important to her.

nit-picking (or just clarifying?),

Jill

    	I didn't see the program. What happened that she died?
    
    	Scott

    Bringing you another episode of "These people are nuts..."
    
    (Sorry; I do respect the abilities of those who enjoy dangerous
    activities, but I can't help wondering about them *just* a bit!)
    
    The program about the attempt on K-2 included some video footage
    of the really horrible weather on the slope. In practically zero
    visibility the climbers were trying to make their way up a sheer
    wall of ice, the spikes in their boots slipping back for every step
    they took upwards, the wind trying to push them off the mountain.
    These were the conditions in which they decided to turn back.

    From what the commentator said, the next attempt two years later (in
    '86) went much better on the upward journey, and they did achieve the
    summit, but at the first camp on the way down the eight climbers were
    trapped in their tent by a severe storm. (After seeing the footage of
    the first climb, I can't help but wonder how much worse it could
    get...)
    
    At any rate, they were pinned there for days and their supplies began
    to give out. The commentator didn't go into further detail; only two of
    the eight survived, and I gathered that the others died in their tent,
    of a combination of cold and starvation. (Correction appreciated if
    anyone has a more accurate report.) 
    
    Mountain climbing is *not* what one would call a safe sport.

    -b

    RE: .23
    Mountain climbers,Sky divers,Motorcycle racers,auto racers,
    and all other poeple who do this type of thing may not be 
    nuts,just willing to deal with death as a part of what they 
    have chosen to do.
    Those of us who do not want to risk life in our pursuit of
    happiness sometimes wonder about them ....
    
    I have a great deal of admiration for people who are willing
    to deal with that level of risk, and that includes all climbers.
    
    
    The view from the top of K2,Everest,MUST be worth it all.
    
    ..Robin

        I digress, but... recent measurments indicate that K2 may be
        taller than Everest. In that case she died after successfully
        climbing a mountain that is BOTH steeper and taller than
        Everest. Either way it's a bitch, and anyone who can do it is to
        be admired.
        
        JimB. 

re .22, .23

I seem to recall hearing that Julie died of exposure and lack of oxygen.
Her partner, the man who filmed the TV show, was one of the two who came back.

Jill

    This may not be entirely germane to either WOMANNOTES or the basenote,
    but as a climber I'd like to re-emphasize that free-soloing, technical
    rock-climbing, and mountaineering are distinctly different sports.
    This is probably a sterile distriction as far as most people are
    concerned (they're ALL nuts!) but from the perspective of women
    in each of these sports, I think the differences in emphasis is
    important.
    
    Free-Soloing requires an almost obsessive independence and drive
    for self fulfillment.
    
    Rock-climbing brings out independence and self fulfillment, but
    also cooperation and dependence. It also emphasizes the intrinsic
    value of the sport rather than the extrinsic. I think this is what
    Joe is referring to when he decries the "commecialization" of the
    sport, the shift away from the intrinsic rewards of the sport itself.
    
    Mountaineering I know very little about.
    
    [For more on this subject, see the CLIMBING notesfile]
    
    By the way, I'm always willing to teach someone how to climb. If
    you're ever in California during April-November, and want to learn,
    drop me a line. (My SO learned at the same time as I did, she can
    follow most 5.8 and some 5.9 even some 5.10. BUT she won't lead!
    I'm going to give her a copy of the basenote, and see if she won't
    change her mind.)
    
    If you ever get a chance to try climbing, do! It may look scary
    and dangerous, but with a qualified leader, it is quite safe (though
    can still be scary!) the rewards though, are well worth the effort.
    The feelings of accomplishment and competance are great!
    
    	-- Charles
                  

      There is an artical in today's Boston Herald about Rock Climbing.
    If anyone wants a copy of it let me know. BTW Male and Female
    Rock Climbing.
    
                    REK

 Catherine Destivelle, of 'The Conqueror' article, will be featured next
Monday on channel 2. 

-Tom

    This just came from my secretary.......
    
    
        * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                              "OUT OF AFRICA" 
                                   or
             "FLYING the SDC FLAG on the SUMMIT of KILIMANJARO"

		WHEN:     Wednesday
        	               May 6th
 				    12 Noon - 1 PM

		WHERE:    Babbage Auditorium, ZKO Nashua NH

		SPEAKER:  Ellie Buford, Public/Community Relations &
                                   Communications Director, DEC, Westminster
	* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

       For all you hikers, mountain climbers, potential hikers and those
       just interested in seeing and hearing about Ellie's exciting travels,
       join us on May 6th.  Ellie will be here to share her experiences of
       climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro and flying the Digital flag on the summit
       with us.

    

    Ellie works in my plant and she is an excellant speaker. I highly
    recommend going to see and hear her. She has also climbed Everest.
    

Re: Julie Tullis

-2 out of 10 to BBC Breakfast Time for getting her husband into the studio for
an interview the morning after her death, when all the facts still weren't 
known. The interview was abandoned half way through when the poor man broke
down and couldn't continue. I know he didn't have to do it, but all the same...

I do not need to see this.

Tarik.

    I haven't visited this conference in awhile and see there's been
    a lot of activity in the note and I wanted to comment on all the 
    discussion of Julie Tullis' death.
    
    As Charles Haynes pointed out, and I agree, there are vast (take
    our word for it) differences between technical rock climbing and 
    mountaineering from a safety standpoint.  Climbing mountains is 
    gambling, even under the best of conditions (which seldom last long).  
    You have little control over most of the forces that make the
    difference between life and death.
    
    As for the bundling of rock climbing in with motorcycling, sky diving, 
    etc., risk is a matter of perception - rock climbing is one of the
    safest activities you can take up (as is sky diving) it just goes
    up.  Two of the most dangerous are skiing (a horrendous number of
    serious injuries and deaths each year) and scuba diving (the most 
    dangerous of all outdoor activities).  Motorcycling is to insane to 
    even comment on.

    As for Julie's (and all the other deaths last year - a big year
    for famous, experienced climbers dying on mountains): while I climb, I 
    can't think of a more pointless experience to die for, and that is the 
    opinion of everyone else I know who's come seconds from dying doing it, 
    and lived. (climbing is safe unless you decide to do something very
    unsafe - I did once or twice, I don't anymore).

    Joe H.
    

    re -1:
    
    Add BICYCLING to your list of dangerous sports.  It ranks number
    one in terms of accidents/injuries.  The only accident I've ever
    had that amounted to anything was on a bicycle.  And two close friends
    of mine who *were* wearing helmets when in bicycle accidents came
    out fine, but their helmets got cracked!

    	-Ellen

    Re -1  is that statistic figured as a gross number of 
    incidents or a percentage of those participating ?

    re: .33
    I can understand your feeling about dying for pointless
    experiences. When I no longer felt that Roadracing motorcycles
    (8 yrs)was worth it,I also quit. However I would like some help in 
    understanding your definition of Skiing among the more dangerous
    of sports. Could you forward by mail the statistics on which you
    base that comment ?
    
    The insanity of any pastime is in the eyes of the beholder,not 
    the participant, Motorcycle roadracers feel the same way.....
    " {..insert_sport_name_here_}  is safe unless you decide to do
    something very unsafe.  "
    BTW.. Roadracing is considerably safer than taking your honda spree
    to the 7-11 for a slurpee. Based BOTH on number of incidents and
    percentage of those participating.
    
    Apologies to all for digressing,but I've done many so_called
    dangerous sports,and still feel that technical rock,and serious
    mountain climbing are among the most scary.(I've never climbed)
    
    =(:-)..Robin with_hair_standing_on_end.

    Can you all stand another article on women and rock climbing?
    This has also been entered in CLIMBING notes.
    
Facing Fear on the Mountain, by Dianne Skafte

(reprinted without permission from Women's Sports and Fitness magazine,
April 1987).

Years ago, when I began practice as a psychotherapist, one of my first
clients was a rock climber named Heidi who spent most of her free time
risking her life.  I told her I admired her fearlessness and she answered,
"What makes you think I'm fearless?  I'm just as scared as anybody else.
Sometimes I tremble and cry all the way up a difficult pitch."

"Why do you keep doing it, then?" I asked.

"I don't know.  That's why I cam to you - to find out."

Heidi, I soon learned, was not that unusual.  Rock climbing is a mysterious
sport, and many of the women who participate in it are as baffled about
*why* they do it as the people who watch them from the ground, amazed
at their daring.

Women climbers often talk about the rock wall the way others talk about
their lovers - a bit breathlessly, with eyes shining and face aglow.  In
many ways, the two relationships are similar; both provide a heated
involvement that forges together many dimensions of the self.

And there is the physical challenge.  To climb successfully requires
the control and flexibility of a ballet dancer, the strength of a weight
lifter, and the balance of a gymnast.  You have to focus simultaneously
on each finger, toe, and limb, while constantly monitoring each minute
shift in body position.  In the process, you are thrown into a state of
exquisite communication with your body that, when sustained for long periods
of time, can alter your consciousness as powerfully as any drug.

Many climbers feel rushes of ecstacy or are flooded with strange and
intense perceptions in the midst of a climb.  Far from being frightening,
these experiences seem to have a positive, integrating effect on psyche.
As Colorado climber Rose Asera puts it, moving lizard-like up a stone
wall "puts you in touch with an ancient, primeval part of yourself that
you had almost forgotten."

The rock wall is a laboratory for managing fear, especially useful for
women, who are usually conditioned to avoid taking risks.  Many women
climbers, observers author and mountaineer Rosie Andrews, are stymied by
fear, even when the actual risk is relatively low.  They also tend to
underestimate their ability, which makes them reluctant to lead climbs.

Experienced climbers, however, have learned to overcome these psychological
obstacles.  A good example is Lynn Hill, an internationally acclaimed
freeclimber famous for her hair-raising maneuvers on walls rated 5.12 and
5.13, among the most difficult in existence.  When I asked her to account
for her stunnign achievements, she replied simply, "I don't let things
get in my way."


"Climbing teaches you that fear is an acceptable emotions," says Outward
Bound instructor Leslie Bruder.  "Ordinarily, when we start feeling
scared, we say 'Uh oh, this isn't for me.  I'd better retreat.'  But
climbers learn that they can be terrified inside and still do a good job."

Nationally known climber and writer Alison Osius was petrified when she
first embarked on climbing as a teenager.  But something told her that she
should persist.  Even now, when she has achieved a mastery that few can
claim, fear is a familiar companion.

"On the rock you learn that giving up is giving away your power," she
reflects.  "You start sagging mentally and physically, and that is how you
defeat yourself.  You must pull out of the sag syndrome and throw yourself
into the next move.  I always tell myself that if I am going to fall, I
will at least fall lunging for it!"

Women who break through the risktaking barrier discover a power that lends
support to everything they do.  One of my clients had dreamed of starting
her own marketing business.  She kept postponing action, secretly fearing
failure.  During a demanding climb one day, her partner got into serious
trouble and she had to risk her life to save him.  The next morning
she marched to the printer, had business cards designed, and began looking
for office space.

In light of all this, it seems that the question to ask is not *why* would
anyone want to climb, but *why not*?  As women master the severe and
elegant lessons of the rock, they learn not only how to cope with fear
and other intense emotions, they gain a new yardstick by which to measure
themselves.

And that yardstick is not based solely on how magnificently they can climb
or how heartstoppingly courageous they can be.  It involves something
more subtle - a realization that the unthinkable is indeed possible, and
that with a little hard work, they can take control of their lives.

As one climber sums it up, "You've roared and cried and grunted your
way up that impossible way.  Then the last little scramble leads you to
the top and you stand there yodeling.:

(Diane Shafte is a psychotherapist who works extensively with climbers.)
    
    	-Ellen

    Presented by the Appalachian Mountain Club's Mountaineering Committee:
    
    A mountaineering slide show with Alison Osius.  One of the world's
    best female climbers will discuss rock climbing in Australia and
    France.  Tuesday, November 17, 7:30 PM, Cabot Auditorium, 3 Joy St.,
    Boston, Ma.  Admission $3 at the door.
    
    	-Ellen