Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Are you looking at advice directed to you, or your wife? Sounds
    like this has little effect on you, and that you're looking for
    advice for your wife. In which case, I'd want to know more about
    what your wife was looking to get out of this.
    >actually its my wife['s] problem
    
    Offhand, it sounds like there's some sort of problem that isn't getting
    talked about, and it's a darn long term one. One possibility is that
    your mother in law is somehow threatened by your wife. This is pure
    speculation/projection(one of my problems with my mom). The way
    I would (am) work(ing) that one out is to figure out just what is
    threatening (your wife's intelligence, beauty, social position,
    incredible marriage :-)), and go from there. Discuss it, help your
    mom in law to get comfortable with it. DO NOT start any sort
    of discussion with anything like "Mom, I think you're attacking
    my stencilling because you're threatened by my intelligence." That's
    a sure show stopper :-}.
    
    Another possibility is that your mother in law is pyschologically
    unfit. I have a friend who's mother is seriously qualifiably nuts, and
    she does nothing but insult her daughter. The solution is this case is
    obviously quite different. Your wife would need the help of a trained
    pyschologist.
    
    I bet there are millions (well, maybe tens) of more possibilities.
    	Mez

    Very often when there are problems between parents and children
    it is because the parent and/or child has not learned to "let go"
    of the relationship.  They never learned to relate to each other
    as two *adults* rather than as an adult and a child (which is how
    they started out).  This is a difficult transition, and many women
    I know (including myself) still spend time trying to be "good girls"
    for our mothers, and many mothers (including my own sometimes) still
    try to dominate/influence unduly their adult children.  
    
    I don't know your wife's "style", but it may help her state of mind
    about the situation to just say to her mother "I'm sorry you are
    not satisified with my efforts/apple pie/decorating, but I didn't
    do it to please you.  I did it to please myself and *I'm* satisfied
    with it, which is the important thing."  
    
    Gloria

Offhand, I can't think of a solution to your problem.  It sounds to me like your
mother-in-law is the one with the *real* problem, and your wife is suffering
from the consequences.  She seems to have acknowledged this from what you've
said.  Be grateful that you live far enough away to avoid having to get together
frequently.  I'm glad your wife had the "courage" to tell her mother what she
thought, although the results weren't very encouraging.  Perhaps bringing up the
subject on a different track; for example, have your wife explaining (to her
mother) how she enjoys seeing her, but that her criticism detracts from that
enjoyment.  (ie, make it a more positive statement than an accusation).  It
sounds like her mother has some sort of "inferiority complex", and needs to
build herself up whenever she can, at the expense of others.  Perhaps helping
her build herself up without charging the others could be beneficial.

Sometimes I think I'm lucky that I moved up here to MA and left my family in NJ.
My sister has been telling me how her relationship with our mother is causing
her grief, and I think I've been spared because I'm "far away" and only see her
a few times a year.  But then again, I miss her in between times and wish we
were closer.

Jill

    Your wife can't change her mother's behavior, but she can change
    her own. I imagine that constant insults from her mother are hurtful,
    and yet her mother probably knows that. One thing your wife can
    do is learn not to care so much (and not to get so hurt). She'd
    probably be surprised by the results.
    
    liz

    I've always had this problem with my mother. It's hard for me to
    see the situation objectively, but my husband believes she intends
    her comments to be genuinely helpful, and doesn't realize how hurtful
    they can be.
    
    I agree that learning not to be hurt may be the best solution. 
    Avoidance helps, too.
    
    					Val

    Carol Eno said it best.  Your wife should just meet her mother head
    on instead of cowering under the weight of her criticism!
    
    "I'm sorry you don't like my <blank> but I think it's just fine"
    
    is perfect!  What's wrong with that?
    
    It takes two people to play mind games and your wife is a willing
    participant every time she hangs her head and slinks away from her
    mother.  When your mother-in-law critices her whatever, your wife
    cannot react because she is thinking, "She's right - I'm no good".
    Your wife is making more of these insults than she should, and is
    willingly accepting the guilt for even BEING insulted! 
    
    If someone at work said to you, "This report doesn't make much sense
    to me", would you take it back silently and be hurt?  Crushed?
    Why not?
    
    Because you have separated the report from your sense of self worth.  
    This is what your wife has not done.  When your mother-in-law
    criticizes your wife's apple pie, why doesn't your wife react the same way
    as you would in the example above?  Because your wife has not separated
    her sense of self worth. 
    
    I'd make that woman elaborate and point out exactly what she meant.
    Openly discussing the actual criticism itself would eventually flush
    out your mother-in-law's motives.  And forget wondering why your
    mother-in-law says what she says, that's HER problem for HER to
    deal with.  You let her off WAY too easy!
    
    "Why don't you like my apple pie?"
    
    "Well, dear, it's just that you use a bit too much cinnamon"  (pitiful
    smile)
    
    "I use the amount of cinnamon that we like.  Don't you use the amount
    of cinnamon that YOU like?"
    
    I'd LOVE to hear her answer to that one!
    
    Your wife is not listening to the words but is hearing only "You
    are inadequate" AND she is agreeing with it.
    
    So talk about the stenciling and NOT your wife's competence!  Discuss
    the apple pie and NOT self worth!  
    
    Oh, one other thing - Yes, your mother-in-law is going to act
    "victimized".  She likes the game she plays with her daughter and
    she is going to resent the fact that your wife refuses to play any more.
    That doesn't mean you have to tip toe around her or try and placate
    her any way you can.  You are rejecting the GAME and not the woman
    and you must make that very clear by your words and actions.  Stay 
    friendly, stay happy and stay calm but call her on EVERY little snide 
    remark and deal with the REMARK and not the person!
                   
    And this is your wife's problem only.  There's nothing really you
    can do until she is ready to abandon the game.  Your wife is getting 
    something out of continuing to play and you can help her find out what 
    it is using "what ifs". 
    
    "What would happen if you told your mother you liked the stenciling
    and you were sorry that she couldn't enjoy it also?"
    
    "What would happen if your mother DID leave in a huff?"
    
    You get the picture but expect a little tension from your wife as
    these questions begin unveiling HER hidden agenda and payoff in the game! 
    
    She's GOT to be willing to end it for it to end.

Boy howdy!  This is an age old problem....

My grandmother used to do the SAME thing to my mother, but direct the
criticisms in such a fashion that they weren't direct attacks but left
my mother confused and hurt....

UNTIL such a time when my Aunt, who was living with my grandmother with
her small daughter (a manless household -- I was green with envy!!:*)),
shed some light.

My mother had KILLED herself setting up a room in the house for Gram to
stay when she got out of Mass General hospital.  I had given up my room
and had bunked in with my brothers, Dad had repapered in Grammy's favorite
colors, we had sanded the floors, repainted the windows and woodwork,
and Mom bought new matching curtains and a comforter for the bed.

As Grammy was wheeled into the room, she glanced at the room (which she
had been very familiar with through me), and said "Harumph... well,
at least it's clean..."

Mom was crushed.  Moaning about boiled chicken that was boiled wrong
was one thing, but this????!!!

Aunt Marion laughed out loud, tucked Grammy into the bed, and said,
"Mother, you'll do ANYTHING to keep from feeling guilty, won't you??!!!
You DESERVE this treatment, you DESERVE all of Barbara's hard work, and
SHE deserves your gratitude....!"

And with that, Mom suddenly understood that the moaning and complaining
had a DEEPER psychological significance than it represented.  Grammy
felt GUILTY about all of my mother's devotions and hard work, and
felt that SHE was letting my mother down by NEEDING it... and she 
turned that guilt inward, it made her feel awful, and she in turn attacked
my mother because Mom (ipso facto) was making her feel awful!  What a bad
daughter to make her mother feel that lousy!!!

*sigh*  It helps me in dealing with my mother sometimes... and Mom never
did quite get the hang of Grammy's problems, but we've been helping her
sort it all out...

I guess the moral is to never take criticism at face value -- it usually
is a mask for something else.

Easy to hear, hard to do.  Best wishes to your wife... she's gonna be
facing ALOT when she decides to deal with this....

Karen

   One thing to remember is "If you don't stand up, you don't stand
   a chance." It's important not to let others' negative comments keep
   you from growing. BUT it's not so easy to shake it off when those
   negatives are coming from MOM. After all, your mom is the one person
   in the world you can always count on no matter what, right? Everyone
   will tell you that. Especially when you're a child. Books tell you
   that. TV tells you that. All the greeting cards tell you that. What
   normal child doesn't desperately WANT to believe that? You have to 
   accept that YOUR mom is not like that, that she may very well never 
   change, and there may not be anything you can do about it. Also, as
   child you are in a double bind, because GOOD children are expected
   to be nice to their mothers, even if mom isn't nice to them. It's
   normal to want to be loved by your mom, and to believe if you wait 
   long enough maybe mom will change and start liking you. It took 
   someone else to tell me, "Hey, your mom really is an idiot, you don't 
   HAVE to like her just because she's your mom." And you are not a
   bad kid because you don't like what she does to you. 

   It's important to try all ways of getting through to her. But be 
   prepared for the fact that it might not work. Everytime I told my 
   mother I had feelings she would call other members of my family and 
   scream at them about how awful I was until they, in desperation, 
   would call me and beg me to APOLOGIZE to her for being such a 
   rotten kid. Obviously, I had no support in the family. It takes a 
   LOT of distance to break out; for me it took being a whole continent
   away. Sometimes you have to lookto other women to learn from, to 
   emulate, even though it never quite fills the empty spot where mom
   is supposed to be.

    I liked the answer in .7.  Treat the little digs as jokes and laugh
    at Mom for them.  Part of her "reward" for these comments is that
    you take them seriously.  If you don't take them seriously, they
    can't be serious!
    
    Ah yes, easier said than done!
    
    Sally
    

    As oppossed to a previous note which stated "Don't take criticism
    at face value", I am advocating exactly the opposite.
    
    If you TAKE the criticism at face value you are separating the criticism
    from the deeper, hidden meanings.  This HAS to be done because in
    this particular mind game, the mother is seemingly offering "just"
    a criticism but the daughter is obediently reacting to the deeper, 
    hidden meaning.  This type of dance didn't develop overnight but
    they both developed it together and it's up to the daughter to separate
    the mothers motives from their manifestations.
    
    I say the daughter should IGNORE the deeper, hidden meaning and discuss
    the actual criticism itself.  To the mother, the actual criticism
    itself is not the point.  The deeper, hidden meaning is the point
    and the daughter can easily get her mother to admit it by acting
    oblivious to the deeper, hidden meaning.  The mother's criticisms
    will be completely defused when she realizes her daughter is discussing 
    simply cinnamon instead of playing the game and dutifully acting like 
    a worthless little girl.  
    
    The mother is going to be perplexed at first and then think it's
    a fluke and start again with something else, for instance, her
    stenciling.  When she sees her smiling daughter innocently discussing 
    the merits of stenciling the mother is going to get a bit frustrated
    to say the least.  I'd say the mother blows up after the third arrow
    misses it's mark and she finally comes right out with what she REALLY 
    wants to say in one red-faced rage!  Then, bingo.  You've got her.
    
    Oh yes, she's going to be pissed!  The mother has accomplished her
    belittlement for years with nary a twinge of guilt - daughter
    willingly took it all for her - so don't expect she's going to start
    accepting responsibility for her feelings easily!  But making her 
    responsible is what the daughter HAS to do.  If mother has something 
    to say, make her SAY it and make her RESPONSIBLE for it!  Don't let her
    get away with "I'll throw you an innocuous zinger and you'll know
    and accept that I mean much more by it". 
    
    And if the daughter is afraid that mother won't "like" her if she
    exposes the game, then chances are the mother is guilty of emotional 
    blackmail.  In any case the daughter really is voluntarily wearing a
    hair shirt for her and she has the power to simply take it off.
    
    
    

    I hear:
    	control issues
    		need for approval
    			a vicious circle
    
    in this one.
    
    It sounds like your mother in law is terrified of NOT being in control
    of her daughter...is she usually a controlling person?  Does she
    have any idea what it would be like not to be in control?
    
    All of us want to be loved, yet too often are forced to settle for
    desperately trying to get the *approval* of our parents.  If this
    doesn't get resolved it can spill over into later life relationships.
    It's hard to know whether this is really going on without knowing
    your wife, but it might be worth thinking about.  The fact that
    your wife goes along with it at some cost to herself (=tension)
    would make it worth looking at.
    
    And control/need for approval usually constitute a vicious circle.
    Eric Berne describes various "games" along these lines in his book
    "Games People Play".
    
    Good luck with this one...

{RE .10} - I agree with you that taking the stuff at face value and thereby
 forcing the issue away from that stuff is usually a good approach.  It seems
  to me, though, that Bugsy's Aunt Marion knew what the underlying problem was,
   so she didn't need to get to it using the stuff at face value.

Either approach may work.  Dealing with the stuff at face value is probably
 safer, since you're less likely to guess wrong; but be prepared to have to
  wade through a lot of irrelevant subject matter!

Using the "Aunt Marion" approach would probably only work if you know somebody
 pretty well.  A problem with this, though, is if you hit the nail on the head,
  the other person might be startled that you've "guessed" something they're
   trying to divert attention from, and deny it.

Either way will get a dialogue going, though; so either way is better than
 silence.
  <_Jym_>

    After reading through the replies in this file, I have not seen
    one item that suggests that the Mother of the person involved in
    this really wants to discuss the problem and be honest about it.
    
    My wife, and her mother, have had a stormy relationship for as long
    as I have known them (16+ years). By the way, we've been married
    for 13 of those years.  Anyway, my wife has tried everything mentioned
    here in an attempt to solve the problem between them and some that
    have not been mentioned as well. 
    
    She has tried confronting her directly, trying to use a more suttle
    approach, she's tried ignoring the things said and done, she's written
    letters trying to explain her feelings and on and on. Nothing has
    seemed to work. It seems that each time my wife "hits the nail on
    the head" her mother changes topics and then refuses to talk about
    it anymore. She has told my wife that everything is in her head
    and that she is taking everything the wrong way but, she refuses
    to clarify her own statements. This usually develops into a screaming
    match between the 2 of them and nothing gets settled, in fact, things
    keep getting worse.
    
    Finally, after years of frustration, my wife sent her mother a letter
    and told her that unless she was ready and willing to listen to
    her and talk about things, she didn't want anything more to do with
    her. We both expected some sort of reply, (you're full of sh*t,
    you're wrong, go to hell, etc.) but instead we've heard nothing....for
    over 2 years!!!!!  The content of the letter was VERY deep and personal
    and went back to when my wife was a child. without going into a
    lot of detail, all she asked for was an explanation as to why her
    mother said and did the things to her when she knows that it hurts
    her so much.  
    
    At first, the fact that there was no reply, not even a phone call,
    bothered my wife so much that she was willing to call her mother
    and apologize. But, she really thought about it and figured the
    "ball was in her mothers court" and it was her move to make. Which
    leads me to the point I was trying to make... My mother-in-law is
    a very stubborn person!!! I know that my wife hit the nail to many
    times and possibly to hard for her mother to bear, but they say
    the truth hurts. My mother-in-law is not willing to discuss ANY
    problem that she thinks she is not part of. In this case she thinks
    the problems are all my wifes and, knowing her as I do, she will
    probably go to her grave before she admits that she MIGHT have done
    something to hurt her daughter. She has, and will continue to, refuse
    to talk about it. Until she does, I fully expect my wife to stick
    to her guns and wait...and see what happens.
    
    Only time will tell,
    Frank

    Frank,
    Thanks for typing all of that in. It sounds like you're giving your
    wife a lot of support. Thanks for a different (and scary) perspective
    on this situation. It makes me wonder how far I want to push this
    sort of issue.
    
    
    Liz

    
    re: .14
    
     I could have told the same exact story!!! I, too, wrote a letter
    and got no reply. I expected to get what I usually got which was
    "You're lying! You do everything just to hurt me!". This time I
    told her not to talk to me EVER unless she was willing to grow
    up and talk sensibly and take responsiblity for her actions. 
    I haven't heard a word since. Some people LIKE being miserable
    so much they are willing to give up their children. Apparently
    that's what she wants.
         
    k.
    
    (Also, .14, I did suggest in an earlier reply that it might not be 
    a good idea to expect change, because she might not, and you are
    setting yourself up for heartbreak if you do.)
    
    
    

    re 16:
    
    I'm not sure about the approach you're taking.  Maybe your mother
    *is* pretty immature.  I've had good luck with my mother by making
    certain topics "off-limits" because as I tell her, "We'll just end up
    fighting", she agrees, and we go on to other surface, superficial
    topics, which is about all I've ever been able to talk with Mom about
    without fighting.  But she's pretty cool about letting go when it
    gets too heavy.
    
    It seems pretty heavy-handed to write a nasty note and leave your
    mother with a load like that.  I think if I were in the position
    of getting such a letter, I'd be pretty burnt and may respond (or
    not respond in this case) just as she did!  In general, I think
    nasty notes are written by cowards who are afraid to face a person
    face-to-face with a problem.  Although, it sounds like the woman
    in .14 tried just about everything she could.  And maybe you did
    too.  But think about how *you* would feel if your mother had written
    you a similar note.  Would you be angry?  I know I would be.
    
    I don't know.  I've had pretty good luck walking out the door for
    a while if necessary, changing the topic, ignoring Mom for a while,
    etc.  I've never had to resort to nasty notes.
    
    	-Ellen

    I can relate to this subject all to well.  I don't have any 
    answers just a little scenerio.
    
    I stopped communicating with my Mother after a difficult phone call.
    I did not tell her I would not call again, I just did not call her
    and she did not call me.  She was injured and in the hospital for
    a few days.  Her sister lived in the same house and she was not
    alone.  My brother decided to visit and establish a relationship
    at this time.  He had ignored Mom after Dad's death.  Mom and brother
    became great friends and a plan was put into place for Mom to move
    in with the brother (her sister was retiring and moving to Maine).
    
    I visited Mom occasionally during the four years she lived with
    my brother.  About a year ago she sent me a letter and told me she
    was moving to congregate housing.  She had barely acknowledged me
    for four years.  She also told me her money was all gone.
    
    Mom didn't have much, enough to last four years I guess.  
    
    This was one of the easiest and yet the most difficult situation
    I have had to deal with.  I don't know how I changed so fast but
    my Mother thinks I am a saint.  Because I turned the other cheek
    and have provided her the emotional support she needs at this
    time.
    
    I have to admit that there is some pleasure in reminding my Mom
    of past hurts.  I don't do it often but there are times that I
    do to her as she did to me.  
    
    I have two beautiful grown daughters and I think my Mom understands
    more what she missed by observing what I have.  Two great friends!!!
    
    Joyce
    

    .17
    My mother is a very hostile and paranoid woman. I tried for years
    to convince her to get help, but she still maintains that there
    is nothing wrong. I was tired of being attacked for the crime of
    simply existing. I have the right  to be happy and the right NOT
    to suffer verbal abuse from this woman. I think you cannot
    even conceive of what its like to have a mother who resents every
    word that comes out of your mouth. Yes, I'm angry sometimes because
    I would love to have a mother that loves me. But I've found other
    women to fill that void, providing friendship and a healthy instead
    of paranoid outlook on life. 
    
    k. 

    Response to .17
   
    >I've had good luck with my mother by making certain topics 
     "off-limits" because as I tell her, "We'll just end up fighting", 
     she agrees, 

       You are assuming, as .14 said, that she WANTS to be reasonable.
       My mother makes a point of starting fights. If she can't get to me
       she calls someone else and gets them upset. She deliberately tries
       to destroy the relationship between me and my grandmother (who is
       her own mother!). My grandmother and I have a totally separate
       relationship now because my mother has hurt us so much by using me 
       to hurt her and vice versa. My grandmother doesn't understand her 
       either.
    
    >It seems pretty heavy-handed to write a nasty note and leave your
     mother with a load like that.  

       You are assuming what the contents of my letter were. It was not 
       a nasty note. Mine was just as in .14. I explained that I was 
       hurt and why. I told her I expected a responsible reply. Not
       the usual crap. If you want nasty, imagine having your mother
       call you on every birthday and saying "This is the woman you caused
       so much pain to [nn] years ago today." Take that load and live 
       with it.

    >I think if I were in the position of getting such a letter, I'd 
     be pretty burnt. But think about how *you* would feel if your 
     mother had written you a similar note.  Would you be angry?  

      I hope she's mad as hell! I hope it wakes her up. I hope it WORKS!
      Last summer she sent me the address of the executor of her estate.
      Go ahead mom! Talk to me! When I went to apply for a passport I
      didn't even know how old she is. 

    >nasty notes are written by cowards who are afraid to face a person
    face-to-face with a problem.  

      I lived in HER ("This is MY house, NOT yours!") house for 14 
      years. I faced it. Without going into details, I forced her
      to look at herself one day. She packed her bags and left the 
      house for 3 days. 
    
    >I've never had to resort to nasty notes.
    
      Consider yourself BLESSED!

Re: .17

I think you're dealing from a perspective that doesn't allow you to
face the reality that not all mothers are GOOD mothers.  Your relationship
with your mother (or other mothers) is such that you can't understand 
THRILL::FRIBERG's motivations.  To you, it just seems like an
arbitrary attack by a vicious daughter.

Believe me, it's not.  I know Kristen.  I haven't MET her mother, but
I've heard more than just what Kris has to say... and it blew me
away as well because my mother adores each one of her children and I
could turn into an axe-murderer and she'd still love me and still show it.

And I've seen Kris struggle to try to turn off all of her mother's
negative forces on her.... Do you think it doesn't hurt her MORE than it
hurts her mother????  If it DOES hurt her mother, which I would, at
this point, doubt.  I think her alienations of Kristen are a victory to
her....

We're all entitled to be love and respected AT LEAST by our parents.
And when you don't get that by the simple virtue that you were BORN,
then it's not YOU that's initiating it.

This woman shouldn't have had children.... but, if she hadn't, Kristen
wouldn't be here and I, for one, would feel that loss.

And it takes incredible strength and understanding for Kris to finally
be able to say "It's not ME in this relationship that's the problem,
it's HER! And her title of "mother" doesn't not absolve her of the
responsibility to treat me like a human being!".

I'm lucky that I don't need to do that, but I pray that should my time come,
I have the strength to do so.

Karen

    re -1
    
    You jumped to conclusions.  I was *not* passing judgement on a
    single relationship.  I was voicing an opinion on how to deal with
    a relationship from personal experience (just my own, limited
    experience, which is as valid as yours is).  It's quite easy to say
    to myself in my situation that the problem is not mine, but is my
    mother's and have my sisters and I agree to each other, yes, yes,
    poor Mom's got this problem and feel absolved of all my wrong.
    
    I don't know what 16's situation was, but I'm cautioning against
    jumping to a conclusion that *you* are right and your *mother* is
    wrong.  It's almost never that simple.  My God, she's just a *person*!
    And people make mistakes and sometimes they're stubborn too!  She
    probably did the best she could in her own limited, hopeless way.
    
    And do not misunderstand.  I certainly do not advocate seeing or
    talking to your mother if it causes you pain.  I am the last in
    the world who would ever be a martyr or ever endorse it.  I just
    think that a person should come to peace in his or her heart with the
    people that their parents are, whether they are good or bad, and
    not let it hinder them in their futures.  I do not advocate meanness
    of spirit to parents for having done a lousy job.  That's the part
    I was voicing against in my last reply.

    	-Ellen

Yeah, but, Ellen... you're saying that Kristen's (or anyone's) feelings
about their mother constitute "meanness of spirit" and that's not really
fair... She's angry, yes, but she's entitled to be angry and if you tell
her "Don't be angry at your mother" she'll only submerge that anger and
it'll come out in another form.  There's anger and maybe there is even
hate, but at least there isn't indifference....

There is a bond that exists between parent and child that prohibits
violent expressions of feelings.... normally.  When a parent and child 
don't bond, that prohibition doesn't exist. And all the anger and hurt 
and feelings of betrayal and abandonment come shrieking out....

I certainly don't advocate writing nasty letters to anyone, although
writing heartfelt letters of desperation can somehow be misconstrued
to be like that.... but this one act of communication is a way
the child can help deal with some of the feelings....

Yes, it takes two to tango.... but at what point would you stop
lapping at the heels of a parent who doesn't want you?  At what point
would you STOP praying for a solution and start saying "The Hell with
it.... I need to survive...".  How do you stop feeling frustrated at
the fact that the reason the relationship is not working is because
YOU exist?

It's like a marriage gone sour, I guess, but with one partner so
completely baffled because the problem started when they were barely
comprehending breathing on their own.  How much responsibility can
the one partner assume??  And if that partner was shown nothing but
contempt and abuse, what can they have learned in dealing with this
parent but contempt and abuse?

We're lucky, you and I.  We both have mothers with whom we can fight
and accomplish things, who will listen to what we say, and I am
particularly blessed because my mother often tells me that I am
the daughter she always wished for... and more.

I don't know what I would do if my mother were indifferent to me, uncaring
or abusive.  I would probably be very angry... but I sure would hurt
inside knowing I didn't have the kind of mother I have now... and
that might make me pull away, knowing I didn't HAVE to take it anymore.

If having a relationship with your mother is threatening your existence,
then you do what you have to do to survive... and try not to let the
guilt of others affect you for they simply have no capacity to understand.

Karen

re -1:
    
>Yeah, but, Ellen... you're saying that Kristen's (or anyone's) feelings
>about their mother constitute "meanness of spirit" and that's not really
>fair...
    
    Karen, would you *stop* jumping to conclusions.  I did not say anything
    about Kristen's relationship!  I don't know her or her mother. 
    I did not say anything unfair in my last reply.  I was cautioning against
    something that *could* happen to people.  Not anyone in particular.
    
>Yes, it takes two to tango.... but at what point would you stop
>lapping at the heels of a parent who doesn't want you?  At what point
>would you STOP praying for a solution and start saying "The Hell with
>it.... I need to survive...".  How do you stop feeling frustrated at
>the fact that the reason the relationship is not working is because
>YOU exist?
    
    I said in my reply that if a relationship caused unhappiness I
    would not see or talk to the person in the relationship causing pain.
    I *said* that!  Furthermore, all I said originally is that notes
    written where the person cannot respond is not the *best* way to deal
    with folks.
    Imagine if your husband decided he wanted a divorce and wrote you
    a letter about it!  I'd want an in-person explanation, not a letter
    in my lap.  I don't know how this applies and maybe it doesn't to
    the relationship you're talking about.  Most of all, I certainly
    *never* said that people should actively pursue hurtful relationships.
    For this reason, I don't see my aunt anymore and I see one of my
    sisters not very often and only for very short periods of time, if
    possible.
    
    	-Ellen

 
    Reply to .22  

    
    >I do not advocate meanness of spirit to parents for having 
    >done a lousy job.  That's the part I was voicing against in 
    >my last reply.

       "I told her not to talk to me EVER unless she was willing to grow
       up and talk sensibly and take responsiblity for her actions."
 
       This is what you call meanness of spirit?    
       I am asking her to be an adult and treat me like an adult.
       She has destructive behaviors and refuses to acknowlege what
       she is doing. If she were a drug addict and I told her to quit
       many times, she refuses, then I say 'ok, either you quit or 
       you lose me' is that using 'meanness of spirit'? 
    
    >I just think that a person should come to peace in his or her 
    >heart with the people that their parents are, whether they are 
    >good or bad, and not let it hinder them in their futures. 

       If she continues her behavior she will continue to hinder my
       future because she is destroying the rest of my family along
       with herself. I would say (and have already said) the same 
       things to anyone else who has destructive behavior. 

    >notes written where the person cannot respond is not the *best* 
     way to deal with folks.

       I wrote a letter because if I had tried to say it in person 
       she would have walked away from me, screaming. I've tried it 
       many times before. And honestly, no I don't want to be called 
       a lying, selfish, rotten child again for the 399999th time. 
       If she wants to respond honestly she knows where I am. 

   People who have not had to deal with destructive parents on a daily 
   basis probably don't understand this. I think what you see as meanness
   is the hard edge of reality that I am faced with. No it's not pretty.
   Next time you talk to your mom thank her for liking herself enough to 
   like you.     

   * * *

    Reply to .24
       
     This puzzles me...
      
    >You jumped to conclusions.  I was *not* passing judgement on a
    >single relationship.  
    >I did not say anything about Kristen's relationship!  

      The following is from your original reply to me(.17). It sounds 
      like judgement passing to me :

    >> I'm not sure about the approach you're taking. 
    >> It seems pretty heavy-handed to write a nasty note and leave your
       mother with a load like that. 
    >> I think nasty notes are written by cowards who are afraid to face 
       a person face-to-face with a problem.  

     Why did you assume the contents of my letter to be nasty when you
     haven't seen it? 

     If you want to give advice in general on the care and feeding of
     mothers, please use language to imply that. 

    This is just to set the record straight. The letter my wife wrote
    was FAR FROM NASTY. She truly dug down into her heart and asked
    and pleaded for her mother to explain WHY. All she wanted was answers
    to the many questions. She wasn't the least bit nasty in the wording
    or content. That letter was the most sincere letter I have ever
    seen. My wife wrote about things that I didn't even know, and we've
    been married for over 13 years. It was a shock to me too. 
    
    The writting of the letter was her absolute last resort. She had
    tried everything humanly possible to get through to her mother and
    nothing worked. She tried eveything that has been mentioned here
    and many things that haven't been mentioned. The whole ordeal has
    been going on fromthe day she was born, and that is very hard for
    the majority of people to even comprehend. It took it's toll on
    her both physically and mentally. How she hung on as long as she
    did is a testament to her own internal spirit. After seeing and
    hearing what went on between the two of them, I still have a hard
    time believeing it, and I was there for the last 13 years!!!!
    
    E'NUF SAID,
    Frank

   Dear Ellen,
     
   I think you are lucky to have lived a life where you didn't have
   to deal with abusive parents. I know you can't understand what
   I've been through any more than I understand what would be like to 
   share hugs and secrets with a mom. 

   One of the last straws for me was when my 90 year old grandmother
   called me in tears, sobbing "Your mother has given me the tongue
   lashing of my life because I talked to you!". Although I feel that
   my grandmother has the obligation to stand up for her rights, she 
   didn't. The only thing I can do is not allow my mother to use me to 
   hurt other people, thus the letter. I don't know if it was right. I 
   only know that I don't like being used and abused. I know that my 
   methods of curbing this abuse seem strange to you. My mother is 
   having a rough time but she is the only one who can stop it. It's 
   not easy for anyone to face rejection day after day from the people 
   who brought you into the world. Count your blessings that you may
   never know what it's like. 

   Let's work together.
   Kristen
       

    The original reply was written to offer a different perspective on
    options to dealing with parents.  I didn't qualify it then, but it was
    really meant as a thought for others who may be having problems
    with a parent.  It may have sounded to you like I was "passing
    judgement", but I feel as bad that you are accusing me of being
    "judgmental" as you do about what I wrote! (which was not meant
    to hurt anyone).  And it was *not* meant to be judgmental of *you*!
    I didn'tsee when I wrote it that it would be taken as hurtful or
    judgmental of a particular relationship.
    
    In all of this, I was try to offer the perspective of "parents
    as people" - not all good, not all bad, just people.  It's something
    I've had to learn in my life.  It seemed like this whole note (not
    just your reply, Kristen) was going down a hole with "parents as
    problems" and I wanted to balance it out.

    	-Ellen

    As I was reading the last few notes I noticed that a number of people
    were feeling misunderstood or attacked or judged.
    
    One of the limitations of a conference like this is that we must
    piece together a story about someone's life from a very small bit
    of data.  I think it would be nearly impossible to read a short
    note without reading in meaning or events or subtleties from our
    own lives, not those of the writer!  
    
    It brought to mind one of the old tenets from consciousness raising
    group days:  each woman is an expert on herself, her life and her
    experiences.
    
    Holly
    
    

    I can relate to Kristen's experience and this note has given me
    a lot to be thankful for.  The problem between my mother and I has
    been resolved and for the most part all is well.  
    
    How did it happen?  I changed and she changed.  When my children
    became adults our family structure changed.  My adult children and
    I are close friends and we share a lot of good things and some
    problems.  My mother was not that important to me.  So I just ignored
    her.  
    
    Some good things are happening with the elderly also.  Mom was forced
    to go to a medical day care in NH.  It had always been difficult
    for her to discuss her feelings but she has started to explore her
    attitudes and how they developed.  
    
    Then she needed a support system.  I was the only one that wold
    do it and I could not justify ignoring her when I was just becoming
    involved with homeless women.  (How could I ignore Mom and yet be
    kind to someone I didn't know?)
    
    The time was right and we have a good relationship now.  I get a
    lot of praise for my accomplishments, and Mom has the support system
    she needs.
    
    But the pain is hard to forget...and I still think of how I needed
    her support in the troubled years I had.
    
    Kristen, I keep saying I am a good person because I spited my Mom,
    maybe I wouldn't have grown as much as I have if she had been the
    kind of Mom that I was looking for!
    
    Joyce

    
       not related but, my mother is rather abrasive sometimes but when
    I move out of the house things will change. Then when she pulls
    the same antics on a visit she is in for a real rude awakening!
    
    prc

>    Where direct dialog with the parent doesn't work, I wonder if
>    anyone has had any success with an "intervention" where an
>    independent professional (psychologist, clergy, social worker,
>    etc.) trained in the method is in attendance?
    
A few years ago I was having a terrible time with both of my parents --
so much so that I went to see a psychiatrist because I needed an 
objective party to help me sort things out.  Before I talked to him
I thought that confronting my parents with someone like him in attendance
was just what I needed.

After talking to him just two or three times, I realized that this was the
very last thing that I wanted.  The impasse that I had reached with my
parents came about because I had already confronted them with things that
they do not want to face -- their own hurts and scars from family
relationships and tragic childhoods.

Around the same time that I was talking to the psychiatrist, I read a book
called something like "Making Peace with Your Parents" or "How to Make Peace
with Your Parents" by a Dr.  Green<something-or-other>.  (I suppose I could
dig up the real citation if anyone is interested.)

The book was a real eye-opener and well worth the day that I took off from
work to read it.  Basically, it says your life is your own -- you should
take responsibility for it and not let your parents push you around, if you
think that they are doing that.  And, in pursuing this remember that your
parents are not your lump of silly putty to play with.  The book even
includes some "desensitizing" exercises for people to use before visiting
that difficult parent, as well as some exercises that help you maintain a
healthy perspective.

I now get along with my parents much better.  It is more of a surface
relationship than I want, but it gets better with time and we have more
respect for each other.

Margaret

    I realise this topic is old, but I'll put this in anyway.  It might
    help someone else.
    
    Whether a damaged parent/child relationship can be salvaged is,
    as it seems from all the previous replies, dependent upon the people
    directly involved.  The question is: can/might/should an SO/spouse
    do anything to help?
    
    This tactic, while many may condemn it as sexist, worked in my family.
    My mother has (still) a very hostile relationship with her own mother.
    She also lived with my parents for their initial married years.
    My mother was so beaten down that she had no idea of how to even
    begin to stand up to her own mother--and she wasn't trying to build
    the most wonderful relationship around, just stop the sniping, the
    abuse, the contempt, the guilt traps my grandmother laid so expertly.
    
    When I asked her why I never remembered any of this behavior in
    my own girlhood, she told me that one day, about six months after
    my grandmother had moved in with them, my father took my grandmother
    aside for a private talk.  He told her that he would not tolerate 
    anymore the abuse to someone who he loved more than anyone else,
    and that it would have to stop or she would have to leave their
    home.  When she pulled the "I don't know what you're talking about"
    line on him, he gave her a complete list of specific instances that
    illustrated what he _was_ talking about.  He was gentle, brutally
    truthful, and never once raised his voice to her.  He made it clear 
    she didn't have to pretend to have loving feelings she didn't have.
    Just that she would not be allowed to continue to abuse my mother 
    anymore, or she'd have to leave.  She shaped up and thus began the 
    first stirrings of civility between the two women.
    
    Admittedly, that was pretty high-handed of him; those were also
    the days when it was more customary for a man to put his foot down
    about the behavior of those who lived with him.  But it worked.
    And it just might work with someone of an older generation, if only
    to first get her attention.
    
    If you wanted to try something like a private talk with your mother
    in law along the lines of "you are abusing someone I love dearly, 
    and I will not tolerate it", it'd be a good idea to find out if your
    wife would welcome this type of support.  It'd be a good idea to talk
    anyway and find out what sort of support she'd like, if any.  If
    she doesn't want any support, or figures that she just has to live
    with this situation, maybe your concern can help her begin to ask 
    why.
    
    Marcia
    
    PS. As a footnote:  In the middle of a minor family feud I used 
    the same line with my sister, who has hated our mother for a long
    time.  I took a deep breath and told her "that's your opinion, 
    and it may be valid but it has no bearing on this situation, so 
    I'd appreciate it if you'd stop beating it to death--I love our 
    mother and it makes me sick to hear you always talk like this.  
    Let's work on resolving the actual situation.  If you hate her that
    much, don't participate in plans for any solution."  My sister admitted
    that she was trying to influence the rest of us to feel the same way 
    she did in order to spoil the plans my brother and I were in process
    of setting up.  I felt proud to have stuck up for someone I cared 
    for, the situation resolved itself, and now my mother and sister 
    are slowly beginning to mend their relationship.  So it can work 
    in other situations as well as with in-laws.