Conference turris::womannotes-v1

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Note 358.0                Rules?????d Guidlines???????                No replies
NISYSI::KING "Feb.5.1988"                            19 lines  29-JUN-1987 14:43
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     Since the note was closed about this I'll start a new one. It seems
    that every notes files has its own set of rules what are the rules
    in here. If I find a note that other people like and I find offensive
    will the moderators do something about it? Also if the readers find
    my noting "style" not up to their standards will I be barred?
    
     I'll try to make myself a little clearer, in human_relations I
    used the word "shit" I immeditely got mail saying you couldn't use
    that word in their and my reply (i think) got deleted. I read other
    files and that word is accepted.
    
     I ask the people of this notes forum, should there be "rules" for
    each notesfile or should there be one set.
    
                    REK
    PS, To the moderators, there might be a note similer to this and
    if you feel it should be moved then please move it on your judgment.
    
    PSS. Hey, how did you know my name was Rick???????????  :-}

    re .0
    
    Well met!
    
    Getting away from the particular base note, you have raised several
    important issues.  Those relating to communication, generalization,
    and the unhappy decisions moderaters are faced with.  
    
    I agree that in conflict, the best thing to do is go to the source
    and work it out with the person you have a problem with.  If faced
    with "well, it was only a joke" type of argument, be firm and let
    known exactly what your feelings are.  If unresolved, then take
    it to the moderater, stating your case precisely and documenting
    the course of events. 
    
    On set hidden, again a stong agreement, as it does make a discussion
    hard to follow.  The note referenced is now so nonsensical, that
    it should be entirely deleted.  
    
    re: generalizations....
    I should think in a forum such as this that tries to promote
    understanding between people that such nonsense would be seen for
    what it is.  While the statement "all blondes are dumb" is on the
    surface a ridiculous notion, it is a stereotype/generalization held
    by many, despite how easily disproven.  To immediately hide something
    like that is to lose the battle by default.
    
    re. 1
    
    I think the differences in files must accomodate different rules,
    but some "rules of conduct" should be based on plain common sense!
    Often in other files I see "This isn't Soapbox, y'know!" and I
    understandthe base of that, but also that the moderaters in that
    file have worked hard to turn that image around.  Unfortunately,
    they are stuck with all the crazies(insert smile here)
    
    I refrain from using expletives in my REPLYs because I have a very
    strong vocabulary.  Also when I see another noter resort to it,
    I tend to discount the validity of that persons remarks. (but only
    because I'm an obnoxious person)
    
    
    
    
    

        This is a pretty tricky question, actually and hard to answer
        with any assurance that you are correct. On the one hand the
        deletion and hiding of notes can be very disruptive of the
        discussion and the conference. On the other hand, there are
        notes whose existence is disruptive of the conference. 
        
        I feel that each moderator and each conference have to select a
        set of rules and a moderating style that is right for them, and
        then stick to it consistantly and even-handedly. I have my own
        prefered set of rules and moderating style, and what I think are
        very good reasons why it is the correct one for most employee
        interest conferences that address controversial subjects. I also
        rescognize that other people may have equally cogent reasons for
        very different rules and styles.
        
        As an aside, I don't always agree with the moderating style of
        WomanNotes, but I have nothing but admiration for the manner in
        which the various moderators here apply themselves to the job.
        They are amongst the most thoughtful and considerate moderators
        on the net. 
        
        Two thoughts that I have on this subject are as follows:
        
        We must remember that each of these conferences exists within
        the context of DEC policies and procedures. That noters go
        through the moderator channel to resolve problems is not a
        necessity, but rather something that happens out of a sense of
        community. A person who feels that the have been harassed in a
        conference is absolutelt within their rights to complain
        directly to Personnel, upper management, Legal, or even
        Security. If they do so, the probability that theire complaint
        will be acted on is very high. The results for the conference if
        the moderatorhas "allowed" the situation to exist can be pretty
        poor. 
        
        Second, my main criticism of WomanNotes moderation is that it is
        "too nice", that it is not assertive enough, that it allows
        dirsuptive noters, especially disruptive men to set the agenda
        for the conference and to disrupt the discussion of issues of
        interest to women. One of the most heavily discussed issues in
        this conference has been one ill-manner male noter and his views
        on women and noting. Should such people be setting the direction
        of this conference?
        
        JimB. 

    Re:3 Well put Jim. I know its a tricky question but for the future
    of the notes world I think it has to be addressed. To play the game
    you *must* know the rules.
    
                   REK

    Query:  I am often frustrated/confused when notes are set hidden
    and such.  Especially when there are responses that refer to what
    they are about, but make no definite statements - so I draw my own
    often inaccurate conclusions.  Is there any way a moderator could
    paraphrase the basic intent of the hidden note: like this -
    
    Someperson at somenode wrote a note-now-set-hidden saying "people of 
    some-type are real twits and can't drive to save their lives" or
    "thus-and-such shouldn't be trusted with money/power/children/your
    spouse/whatever - end of discussion" - and all opinions are followed
    by gory detail in concrete generalized terms.
    
    translates to "someone mentioned something negative about the driving
    ability of some-types." or "someone opined that thus-and-such is
    untrustworthy with .....etc" - without the gory detail.
    
    do you see what I mean?  It doesn't matter to me who wrote it, and
    it also doesn't matter that after several responses it's write-locked,
    but I'd really like to have a clue as to what people are saying
    that cause such response.  

    -Jody
    

    It seems notes has the classic freedom problem. Your freedom to
    swing your arm ends where my nose begins. Or rather it ends where
    I percieve my nose is in danger. All of us have a different point
    where we draw the line. The moderators must make the decision where
    that point is for the "average" noter. 
    
    I too find hidden notes something of an annoyance. I can use the
    next key as well as anyone. However, the moderators have to worry
    about what might offend someone to the point that it gets reported
    and may kill the notesfile. I'd rather lose a note here and there
    than have the file shutdown. 
    
    Just an aside: Sometimes you just have to admit that someone is
    a jerk and that you are best off just ignoring them. If someone
    enters a note and no one replies maybe they'll get the message.
    liesl

    
    
    I don't mind notes being hidden or set nowrite.  It helps cut
    done on the clutter I sometimes see in this conference.
    
    As far as freedom goes, freedom and responsibility go hand in hand
    and I think that the moderators of this conference really allow
    a lot of freedom of expression and rarely (I would set more notes
    hidden and nowrite) enforce responsibility at the expense of freedom.
    
    I hope the above comes across in a positive manner, because it is
    meant that way.
    
    _peggy		(-)
    			 |	Even Jerks have the Goddess within
    

    My 5 cents worth....
    
    
    I am busy at work with a third party software project (guess which
    one:-)...), so I can't note as much as I'd like - but I am more
    happy to FINALLY be super productive... but on holidays, like today,
    I can come into work, and catch up on noting....
    
    I do that, and one is womannotes....  all I am seeing comma after
    comma, is note set hidden, or note been deleted....
    
    It gets disturbing to say the least...  Another conference had that
    problem, and one woman noter solved it, by extracting the notes
    that this noter wrote... then when the noter deleted it, she would
    re-post it so that everyone could have the benefit of seeing the
    note, the noter would not have access to deleting it.
    
    Maybe that needs to be done here?
    
    Something has to be done....  this file seems to be going to the
    dogs!  It used to be a nice file...
    
    GLK

    Oh hush Gail, some very good conversation has gone on before during
    and since the disruption (see WOMEN AND MONEY AT DEC).
    
    Yes it is a pain, and I'm sorry the moderators have to clean up
    so much chaff, but =womannotes= is going on...
    
    Lee
    
    (BTW, no offense intended, as I'm sure you know...)
    

>    Oh hush Gail,     

    
    
    	First, its Gale :-)... but thats okay...  Lee the problem is,
    it is STILL happening... as an example:
    
    From 372.2
    
>    I have hidden and locked this string because of an objection made
>    by a member of our community to the basenote.  I have hidden the
>    replies because they make no sense without the basenote.
    
>    I sincerely hope that this pattern will not continue much longer.
    
>    						=maggie
        
    This was just yesterday...  Yes, I will hush.... I did like Woman and
    Money at DEC though :-)
    
    
>        (BTW, no offense intended, as I'm sure you know...)
    
    O'Course.... I wouldn't stayif I didn't know that :-)
    
    Lobster_Gale    
    

    There are two distinctly different problems being addressed here.
    One is where an author decides to delete (usual) or hide (rare)
    their own notes because they feel the need to retreat.  This is
    especially aggravating when the notes have been important parts
    of interesting discussions.
    
    The second problem, more frequent, is where a note is deemed
    inappropriate by the moderator and is hidden or deleted.   When
    I first started moderating, I chose to hide notes, but I found that
    that only drew attention and distracted noters from other issues.
    Also, if one un-hides a note, other noters don't see it automatically.
    
    Since then, I have adopted the technique (introduced to me by Jim
    Burrows) of returning the note to the author and deleting it from
    the conference, with an explanation and a suggestion of how it could
    be made acceptable.  If this is done quickly enough, no one will
    have replied and there is little or no disruption.  Later, if the
    author chooses to repost the note in another form, everyone will
    see it then.  Nothing is lost.
    
    If a note has already resulted in numerous replies, I am less likely
    to either hide or delete the individual note.  What I may do (depending
    on the situation) is either to disable replies for the topic or
    to delete and return the entire note and all replies to all authors;
    I have done this recently in another conference.  This action is
    reserved for notes that I feel are truly offensive or just have
    no place in the conference.
    
    As Jim said earlier, a moderator has to pick a position and apply
    it consistently.  I too have tremendous respect for the WOMANNOTES
    moderators, whom I know spend much more time moderating than they
    ought to due to one or two troublemakers.  They have my full support
    in their efforts.
    					Steve

    Maggie and Bonnie --
    
    Some of us who have spoken to you in person have heard some of the
    things you have to say about the personal philosophy which underlies
    your moderation style(s).                           
    
    I think it would be helpful if you would write about that for people
    who haven't had a chance to meet you in person and discuss it with
    you.
    
    I think you have very consciously adopted a laissez-faire style
    of moderation out of a wish to empower every member of this community
    to take action and speak out.  In various responses and in person
    I have heard you say that "the community should decide".  Please
    say more in the conference.  Please also discuss ways that members
    of the conference can constructively create the kind of environment
    that is most comfortable for the majority of us by empowering you
    to take certain courses of action.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Holly