Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    	Mez,
    
    	There's always duty to husband, children, and church, but it
    	works the otherway also, that for the man, there is duty to
    	wife, children, and church (depending on religeon though, if
    	there is a duty to church).
    	Maybe she could talk to the priest, or minister that married them
    	if they did get marreid in the church.  We don't know the specifics
    	of why this marriage isn't working, but they need help, and
    	maybe talking to a marriage counselor can help.....
    
    	Also, if you heard it from your folks, I'm sure your folks,
    heard it from hers.....She might not want help, if she hasn't told
    anyone herself...she might be trying to work it out without letting
    anyone know, so if they get back together, no-one will know they
    had separated....
    
    			Mike
    

    	Mez, 
    		I know exactly how you feel.  
    
    	My sister and her husband separated last Sept 1st.  Like you,
    I heard it from our parents.  In my case, I knew why they were
    splitting.  (He's a doctor; she's a lawyer and aside from the fact that
    their careers took so much of their energy and kept them apart so much,
    they felt like they were growing in different directions.)  They had
    been in counseling for several months and this was the next step.
    
    	I wanted to help, but didn't know what to say and besides, Kel
    and I have never been the closest of sisters (although we like each
    other more now that we have both grown up and flown the coop).
    I knew what weekend they were moving to the new apartments and I
    knew that Mom and Dad would be in Europe then and that Kel would
    not be able to talk to Mom, so I gave her a call to make sure she
    was OK.  I just let her know that I was thinking of her and that
    if she needed someone to talk to, I would be happy to listen.  (I
    think she was shocked to find out that that creature of a little
    sister could actually be considerate and compassionate.:-))  I didn't
    offer her any opinions, just let her know that if she wanted them,
    I was there, or if she justed wanted an ear, I was there.
    
    	Kel and Kurt have to decided to divorce.  In their case the
    divorce is completely amicable and I think they made the right choice.
    
	I guess I'm saying the best thing to do is just offer your support
    without offering any advice unless it is asked for.  If she does
    want your advice, let her know that divorces can be amicable, and
    can be the best thing for all involved.  But I'd hesitate to make
    any suggestions as to what SHE should do, unless she's in a
    life-threatening situation.  She has to make the decision on her
    own.  
    
    Tracey
      

    My brother and sister-in-law (now married for 10 years) separated
    briefly when their oldest daughter was about 4. They, too, kept it as
    quiet as possible because they felt their chances of working out their
    problems were better if they had to explain to fewer people. 
    
    Whatever your cousin's marriage's underlying problems and the methods
    they use to deal with them, it's possible that one or both partners in
    the marriage simply feels that the everyday pressure of dealing with
    those problems is preventing them from looking at and thinking about
    those problems. Especially if they married young. 
    
    In my brother's marriage, Terry (his wife) was feeling very frustrated
    and pressured because she had to take care of a rather difficult
    child 24 hours a day , seven days a week, while my brother would
    go out hunting, fishing, etc. with the boys.  Only she was so hassled
    by the sniffles and spills that she couldn't see beyond "he's being
    unfair and I'm leaving."  Communications had broken down to the
    point where her mother and his mother knew more about the state
    of the marriage than either of the participants.
    
    So Ken and daughter moved in with my parents for a while.  
    
    When they calmed down, they were able to talk about the problems and
    reach some agreements -- one of which was that now the whole family
    goes fishing. (Ken had always assumed that if Terry wanted to go, she'd
    ask. She always assumed that if he wanted her along, he would have
    invited her . . . )   And they set up a new house rule:  When one of
    them is upset about something the other one did, the offended person
    has to tell the spouse before he or she complains to anybody else. 
   
    One other thing Terry did that your cousin might want to know about:
    she went on? to? a retreat at a monestary in the mountains.  She's not
    Catholic, or even particularly religious, but apparently that wasn't a
    requirement for staying there.  Other people since then have told me
    the same thing -- that many religious orders provide a certain amount
    of refuge for most anybody who needs it, regardless of who you are or
    why you're there, and that they don't try to talk to you about religion
    unless you express an interest.  If your cousin just needs a quiet
    place to think, she might find something like this valuable.
    
    --bonnie
    
    

    I think the most important support a friend or relative can offer
    in this situation is just to be willing to listen to the other person
    talk about their problem.  I think the worst thing is to try to
    convince the person that they have some duty to stay married to
    somebody they have become unhappy with.
    
    When I was unhappily married I was trying to figure out how to *stop*
    being married.  I knew I could stay married forever if I wanted
    to, and also be lonely, and miserable forever, too.  People can
    reach a point in a relationship where they just stop wanting to
    work things out, they reach a point where they just stop caring
    and they just stop loving.  Sometimes this is with very good reason.
     I don't believe anybody has any obligation to spend the rest of
    their life with another person just because long ago they fell in    
    love and decided to get married.  I believe people have a duty to
    not hurt other people deliberately, but beyond that I believe each
    person's main duty in life is to enjoy their life as much as possible.
    
    When I was unhappily married it seemed as though so many people
    thought I should go to counseling to make my marriage work.  I said
    I didn't want to make it work, I wanted to know how to end it. 
    It honestly took me about 5 years to figure out how you can just
    pack your bags and walk out the door.  But, I'm glad I finally did
    it and I haven't regreted it yet.
    
    It always amuses me that whenever somebody says they're getting
    married people get very mushy and gushy, "Oh, I'm soooooooooo happy
    for you.  It's just wonderful!!!!!!"  There's hardly a mention of
    the fact that it may turn out to be a terrible mistake.  But, when
    somebody says they got divorced people always say, "Oh I'm so sorry.
     That's so sad."  I was so pleased when one aquaintance who heard
    of my divorce said, "Bout time, lady.  Good for you!"
    
    Just recently I ran into a woman I hadn't seen for a few years.
     I told her that my mother had been extremely ill and almost died,
    and that we still weren't sure she was going to make it.  She said,
    "oh, that's a shame"  Then, she asked after my husband.  I said,
    "Oh Bob and I split up 2 yrs. ago"  She exclaimed in horror, "Oh
    my God!  I'm so sorry!  That's terrible!  How are you doing?  I'm
    so sorry I asked!  I didn't know!"  She actually was more sorry
    for me that I had gotten divorced than that my mother was almost
    dead!  Sometimes I think keeping a marriage together is over
    emphasized.
    
    Lorna
    

    Mez,
    
    My heart goes out to you... when in that situation, you want to
    help, and really don't know where to begin.
    
    From someone who has been there:
    
    Try listening.  I didn't tell a soul except my parents. I figured
    my mom and dad would tell the rest of the family, in the time they
    needed to be told.
    
    What didn't I need?  I didn't need to hear what a louse he was.
    What a mistake I had made to begin with (13 years ago), and others
    along that same line.
    
    I also didn't need my brother and/or sister calling me every night.
    I needed to know that they were available should I need them, no
    matter what time it was (tears ususally come late at night/very
    early in the morning).
    
    If you are close to your sister, I would suggest a call that says
    something to the fact of "Hey, I'm here... if you want to talk,
    call me." 
    
    Also... if anytown, usa is close to you, kidnap the kids for a while,
    a weekend, a whatever, and give her some time alone.
    
    If $$$ is scarce (don't assume it isn't), try helping out that way...
    even if its carring in a bag or two or groceries whenver you go
    to visit, to helping with a down payment for a new place to live,
    to paying the winter gas bills. I had to have help with the last
    two.  I had a very special friend help with a down payment, and
    my dad paid my winter gas bills for one solid winter.  I have yet
    to pay either back, but will little by little, and they both know
    that. Its very hard to ask for help when you need it monetarily,
    so if you can foresee that, it might be helpful.
    
    Just be a support person the best you can.  Too many people are
    going to try to give her advice, (do this, don't do that, etc).
    If she asks, give her your opinion.  If it is a strong overwhelming
    urge to tell her without being asked, give her your opinion, tell
    her it is, and then go on from there.
    
    Above all, stand by whatever decision she makes. It is going to
    be tough. If you can help put a smile in her life, then do that.
    
    Gale (whose divorce is final in 29 days)

    Another vote for listening, and "being there" for her. Free advice,
    no matter how loving and well-meant, is usually worth what you paid
    for it. If she ASKS, fine. But let her ask.
    
    Also, it's really amazing how people will often spend years describing
    the meanest, rottenest, louse, etc. etc. - and when they finally
    leave the person.....don't you DARE say one mean thing about the
    ex (or soon to be ex), or you will hear the best defense of him/her
    this side of Perry Mason! 
    
    Listen. Be there. Let her know she can trust you, lean on you, whatever
    you're confortable with. In the long run, she's gotta work it out
    herself. But as the song said - she'll get by with a little help
    from her friends (relatives)
    
    Dawn

In the hopes that it might help you deal with your situation, I reccommend a
very good book.  It should still be available in most bookstores.

The name of the book is "UNCOUPLING", but I can't think of the author's
name right off. 

It is a very well-written book about the problems everyone faces when they
go through the dissolution of a relationship.  It is not aimed specifically
at the break-up of a marriage, but is concerned with the effects of any
kind of break-up.

It is non-judgemental, and is aimed at showing (telling) the reader how to
cope with the "uncoupling".  It is not! preachy.  It attempts to show how
all break-ups have similar components and how the reader can cope by 
finding parallels from other cases.

It is not aimed at either helping with a reconcilliation or with helping
dissolve the relationship. It gives guidance for whatever path you choose,
and I and some friends I have recommended it to have also found it to be
of use.

****************************************************************************

In reply to your original question, I would like to add the following.

Just because someone chooses not to "tell the world", does not 
necessarily mean that they don't wish to talk to someone (especially
someone close).  It is frequently during stressful times like separation
that we most need to have someone to talk to.  I agree with the previous
comments that say not to just barge right in and intrude on their 
personal space, but do let them know in a loving and caring way that you
are available.  Even if they don't want to talk specifics, it can frequently
help them to just talk and be with someone who cares and values them as
a person.

In love and peace;

Dirk

Well, I've finally caught up enough on womannotes to come to all this
great advice. All I can say it THANK YOU ALL!!!! I found bits and pieces
in each reply, to help both me and Roz (I hope). At least I don't feel
like I'd be a complete nudge if I called her and told her that I'm willing
to offer any necessary support.

Take care y'all.
	Mez