Conference turris::womannotes-v1

        As mentioned in a couple of other notes, my own language is
        somewhat unreconstructed. I still "Sir" and "Ma'am", and will
        refer to female friends as girls or gals if in the same context
        I would have refered to males as boys or guys. that being said,
        you'll have to realize that you will get much more liberal
        advice than mine.
        
        I find that women do object occasionally to being called
        "ladies" or addressed as "Ma'am", but not terribly often.
        However, *addressing them as "Lady", will get you in trouble
        much more often. "Lady" as a form of address is not formal
        English usage but rather a not terribly respectful informality.
        It is also not used symmetrically. When would you say "May I
        help you, Gentleman"? You wouldn't. You would call him "Sir".
        Thus "Ma'am" is much more correct. As such it will get you in
        much less trouble.
        
        JimB.
        

    Ususally when the word "lady" is used at me it is either from 1)
    an older man who feels funny calling me a woman [sometimes I still
    lok 16 yrs old] or 2) a man expressing reluctance to deal with me
    ["yeah, lady, what do you want"].  The first makes me uncomfortable,
    but we take what equality we can get from older men, and there are
    much bigger battles to be fought.  The second makes me mad, and
    the person using it is likely to get a belligerent reaction out
    of me.
    
    All rules are off when dealing with people who have accents [including
    a variety of american accents] as I figure they can't know what
    _my_ society thinks those words imply.  If the "alien" is someone
    I can expect to see again, I will correct him as to how I prefer
    to be addressed.  Otherwise, I forget it.
    
    Lee

    re .0:
    
    Typically, an elderly woman is referred to as a lady but addressed
    as "ma'am".
    
    

    Re: .0 --
    
    As has been pointed out already, using "lady" as a mode of address
    tends to convey a lack of respect.
    
    Referring to a woman as a "lady" can also imply a certain set of social
    standards for behavior that many American women, myself included, find
    are intended to confine them to traditional occupations and
    nonthreatening behavior. 
    
    Me, I try hard to be a gentleman. (Lots of smiley faces here.)
        
    --bonnie

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Note 370.4                    Is it a bad word??                          4 of 5
CEODEV::FAULKNER "Mr Manners"                        10 lines   6-JUL-1987 10:18
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    re.1
    congrats Mr (i am a sensitive male) 
    
    many wimmen hate ma'am cause it reminds them that madam usually
    ain't a ladies occupation. for all your tryin you just set yourself
    back 50 years or so.
    
    re.0
    would you like to be called "gentleman" ?
    

    I think that the usage of "lady" in American English has drifted
    quite a bit from that used in Great Britain.  The British usage
    is "The general feminine title of nobility and other rank", and
    my dictionary also lists the primary American usage as "A woman
    of refinement and good manners."
    
    So why should this seem an insult?  I expect it's because of our
    American attitude against nobility, and a woman may think she's
    the subject of sarcasm if called a lady when she thinks of herself
    as a "common person".  The male equivalent would be if a man were
    called a lord - can you see that being accepted in American society?
    
    Americans have diluted the term lady to "a polite term for any adult
    member of the feminine sex" (quoting dictionary again).  Isaac
    Asimov, in his "Treasury of Humor", discusses this in the context
    of the classic joke that goes as follows:
    
    	"Hey, who was that lady I saw you with last night?"
    	"That was no lady, that was my wife!"
    
    Many people think this is funny because the second speaker doesn't
    know that lady is a polite term for woman.  But this joke is really
    dependent on the earlier British usage.  Asimov suggests replacing
    "lady" with "sweet young thing" and seeing if the laugh comes easier.
    
    I will use Ma'am when respectfully addressing a woman, just as I
    will use Sir for a man.  "Lady" seems inappropriate to me in this
    context.
    					Steve

    Note 370.7 has been deleted with the permission of the author

        RE: .4 (reposted as .6, as well)
        
        Excuse me, but I guess I didn't make myself sufficiently clear.
        As I attempted to say in my introductory remarks, my own usage
        of the language is admittedly reactionary. I understand that
        some women object to my use of language. None-the-less I still
        "Sir" and "Ma'am" those whom I feel are deserving of respect and
        social distance, and will refer to femaes of the species as
        "girls", "gals", "fellows", "women", "ladies", "young ladies",
        and the like as seems appropriate. I do what I can to not offend
        anyone in the way that I address them, but of course, I fail at
        times. 
        
        I don't mind taking heat for my views. In fact, in a conference
        such as this, I rather expect to. That one or two women have
        said that they value my contribution and that I would be hard
        pressed to offend them is something which not merely pleases me,
        but surprises me as well. It's just that I much prefer to take
        heat for my actual views rather than for those which I do not
        hold. 
        
        Feel free to lambast me for not misspelling woman or women or
        for calling my lady-friends "gals" and "girls" and addressing
        women as "Ma'am". I am quite above boards in my belief that most
        of these ideolgically inspire neologisms are both awkward and
        not likely to acheive what they are intended to. But please
        don't chide me for failing an attempt I'm not making. 
        
        JimB.

    Art,
    Madam is a French word which is either a title for a married woman
    or the proper address of any woman over the age of X so as not to
    insult her by assuming she wasn't married (old school) ;->).
    ...and I must confess that given the confusion of words of people
    with two X chromosomes I found lady a nice neutral word - till now
    it has been attacked....sigh
    
    Bonnie

    I think "lady" is ok to use in a similar context to where I'd use
    "woman", but I would not use it as a form of address.
    			Steve

    Re .11
        
>    	some of the comments made, I should say that I have been referred
>    	to as a Gentleman many times and it never bothered me the least.
          
    Someone might say that you *are* a gentleman, but no English
    speaker would ever walk up to you and say, "Excuse me, gentleman,
    did you drop your car keys?"  Rather, he would say, "Excuse me,
    sir, ..."  Similarly, a woman may *be* a lady, but you would
    *address* her as "ma'am".
    
    	-Neil

	"Excuse me, did you drop your car keys?"        

    	
    	I know a lot of women who ain't ladies. I know a lot of Gals
    who ain't women. I know women who are still girls. I know a lot
    of girls who are not women...M'am , Madam, Miss...whatever, the
    point is that .0 felt intimidated by the sensitivity of some women
    and doesn't know what term to use. The same has happened to me and
    they don't say anything to me they say it to some authority who
    comes down on me for being sexist or a male chauvinist...If I'm
    working with someone and they know me they KNOW GD well I'm anything
    but....But I'll be damned if I'm gonna become paranoid over saying
    Gal, Miss, Madam, Lady....etc
    
    It's OK however when women can come into a room and say "Hi guys"
    But let me do the same and say "Hi gals" then watch the action.
    ...Think I'm kidding...just try it
    
    In todays business world ya gotta ignore such trivial & petty
    gripes
    
    		...for what its worth
    
    				___GM___	
    

    I'm not sure what all the discussion is about.  Seems to me that
    Jim answered the question back in .1.
    
    An aside:  A week or so ago, I adressed a waitress as "waitress."
    A woman I was with found that odd and thought I should have used
    "Miss."  
    
    I guess even women are guilty of sexest English sometimes.
    
    John M.

    re: .17 (in response to your aside)
    
    Of course women are guilty of sexist English -- when sexism is built
    into the language, it's hard to avoid.  
    
    That's why we sometimes make such a fuss about relatively trivial
    things such as whether someone calls us by the 'wrong' word.  It helps
    to bring up the unconscious assumptions that anybody who grew up in
    this culture, male or female, is making.   
    
    --bonnie

    An English squire's viewpoint:
    
    A lady is any woman in whose presence a gentleman instinctively refrains
    from improper language, smoking, and excessive imbibing of alcoholic
    beverages. 
    
    A Lady is the spouse of a Knight of the realm, or the daughter of certain
    ranks of the peerage.
                        
    It is NEVER proper to refer to a person as "lady" though a person of
    the rank of Lady may be refered to as "Lady Ann" or whatever after you
    have been formally introduced. In the absence of a formal introduction
    the proper mode of address is "ma'am" (not madam), or "m'lady".
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    
    

    "A lady is a woman who is never unintentionally vulgar."

    See, that's why I'm not a lady . . . frequently vulgar, often loud,
    and more prone to join the men in swearing and drinking than to
    inhibit that activity. . . 
    
    Saw a wonderful line in Miss Manners about this:
    
    "I still believe in the genteel custom of separating the smokers
    from the non-smokers after dinner, but that cannot be accomplished
    by separating the ladies from the gentlemen."
    
    --bonnie

    re .21 Miss Manners    I disagree - the ladies will BE 
    the smokers !  Alors.     :-)/2
    
    Dana

    Re Miss M:
    
    She's the first - and only - etiquette columnist who has ever caused
    me to see any value in etiquette. "Holier-than-thou," no; she never
    trespasses in the territory of the Almighty. She is, however, perfect,
    and does not hesitate to admit it when pressed. (And I think she's
    wonderfully funny.)
    
    Back to the topic, sort of: I came across her definition of "lady"
    the other day, and thought of this discussion; if I can find it
    again I'll post it here. (If anybody else finds it first, feel free...)
    
    -b

    re: 22 --
    
    I think you misread what Miss Manners said.  She agrees with you.

    --bonnie

I stand corrected.  "Holier-than-thou" is incorrect.

Hmmm.  How about Miss "All-you-sheep-line-up-now-and-be-nice-or-else-you-will-
suffer-ghastly-social-death-if-your-linen-isn't-creased" Manners.

Sound like I got something against these 'etiquette' columnists?  You're 
right.

Fire and Brimstone Fundamentalist preachers, 'Manners' columns, "How to be 
a proper <fill-in-the-blank>", "Fashion" designers [ever see their stuff?  
Most of it lookes like torture devices!] or anyone else who likes to lead 
the sheep to their wallets and consciences and who try to make people feel 
miserable for being human and not following some dogma gets my ire.

But, then again, I suppose the real sheep have to follow somebody.  I mean, 
whatever happened to common sense?  Whatever happened to expressing 
yourself as an individual?  Whatever happened to personality?

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!

Me?  A slave to fashion/etiquette/trends?  NEVER!!  I had a great example 
to follow.  Thanks Mom!

[Portions of the preceding are to be laced with :-)s.  I'll let you figure 
out which ones.  But all of it is in good humor, meaning to insult none.  
But... If a few people read this and preach the word, well.....]

        My 2 year old son pointed out how I have been using "lady" as
    a derogatory word this morning.  We were stopped at a stop sign
    behind a dump truck and had to wait a while to proceed.  My son
    got impatient and yelled "Come on lady".  I immeadiately realized
    that I never say "Come on sir" or more appropriately I say "Come
    on lady" when the driver is a woman.
    
        I told Colin (my son) how sexist my remarks are and that I will
    try to use just "Come on" when I'm impatient and that he should
    do the same.  I feel like such a fool for not realizing what I had
    been doing.
    
    ASP

    I have a feeling DJPL has never read Miss Manners or didn't pay
    attention.  She is hardly one who dispenses age-old etiquette from
    a book of rules; instead she demonstrates how to deal with those
    who have no manners without appearing rude yourself.  I find her
    columns absolutely delightful and inspiring, and her book on
    "Rearing Perfect Children" to be hilarious and useful.
    
    					Steve

This is not sarcastic.  Really.

When I worked for another company, I used to pick up a newspaper on the way 
in every day.  While wading through long compile streams [on a 1 meg 750, 
it was standalone, no Notes!] I would read through it.

I read more cases that went along the lines of "I was holding a social 
gathering and one of the people was extremely obnoxious, I ejected them, 
was it correct? Ans: No, be nice no matter how much 'defecation' you 
receive" than I cared to witness.  It was hard to miss at time, next to the 
cable listing for the evening.

I couldn't believe what people were expected to put up with in the name of 
etiquette.  The answer always seemed to be "Yes, they were wrong to be 
doing whatever they were doing but you should never have a cross word for 
anyone".

This is the impression I got from seeing about 2-4 of these columns per 
week over the course of a year.

I'm sorry, if someone is acting like an ass, I will shout their name out 
loudly and hold their rude behaviour to the light for all to see.

Someof my other notes in this file have demonstrated my attitude about 
that.  When all the problems regarding renegade noters were around and 
people weren't naming names, I said 'go ahead and name them'.  I also said 
to name those that are outstanding contributors.  I have frequently praised 
those who have written especially enlightening [in my opinion] notes.

I believe in letting people's actions do their talking.  I do not believe 
in hushing up to let them get away with it unpunished.  I'm also the first 
to sound the trumpets when I see something worth shouting about!

    Dear DJPL,
    
    I think that you have misunderstood where Miss Manners was coming
    from. The major point that she makes ( and I love it ) is that you
    can be far more devistating by being politely cold and haugty than
    you can by yelling and insulting.....she has developed the art of
    making the offender feel like a total oaf to a science....she isn't
    prissy, she can be (tho she might deny it) very nasty in the guise
    of being 'extra polite'.....the advantage of using her method is
    that you can 'put down' an obnoxious person without descending to
    their level. 
    
    Bonnie

        Gentle Noter,
        
        Although I heartily share your disdain for anyone who is acting
        like an ass or behaving rudely, I fear that if you shout their
        name out loudly and hold their rude behavior for all to see, you
        may by your performance distract them from one rude ass by
        giving them the appearance of another. Please realize that
        people can hardly help but to judge by appearances, and that
        they are often short-sighted enough to mistake righteous zeal in
        the defense of right thinking for load and loutish behavior.
        
        Thus it is usually much better to follow dear Miss Manner's
        example and to expose their rude behavior in a quiet and
        pleasant manner, so as to not distract them from the boor you
        wish them to see. As the dear Klingon's said, "revenge is a dish
        best served cold". Likewise insult and correction are best
        delivered with a smile and gentle demeaner.
        
        JimB. 
        
        PS. Hard to believe as it may be, when you chide someone gently,
            it is seldom the case that they will miss your intent. :-)

re .30, .31

	Oh, how I wished the 'extra-polite' routine would work for me.  For 
whatever reason, I seem to get taken-advantage-of in those kind of 
situations.

	What I probably resent is the fact that I've read those columns 
*while getting raked over the coals* and it comes off, to me, as terribly 
unrealistic.

	I will grant that it doesn't happen very often [thankfully], but my 
tendancy is to deal with a situation as it warrants.

	I had written about a specific case where I would ordinarily be 
chastised for committing a social gaffe [now in paste buffer], but I think 
of a much better example, now.

	A dear friend of mine had a mother who obeyed Miss Manners like it 
was a bible.  This woman, would, for instance, demand at the door that all 
guests wash their hands [even if you looked spotless].  Her living room was 
covered in covers for years [I never saw the covers off the furniture].

	She tried to turn her son's wedding into a business lunch.  She was 
inviting realtors, bankers, stock-brokers, JUST SO SHE COULD LOOK SOCIALLY 
"GOOD".  When her son said "have you thought about how much that will 
cost", her reply was "well, it's the bride's father who has to pay, he can 
afford it, and it would be terribly impolite for him to deny admittance to 
any of our guests".  I asked him where she got that, his reply "Miss 
Manners and how to run a successful wedding".  The list of incidents goes 
on and on and on.

	This, unfortunately, is the impression that has stuck with me.  I 
have seen more cases like this, so it's not isolated.  I also know it's not 
the rule.  I guess I just had a run of bad luck when it came to meeting 
people who followed that dogma.

    RE .32:
    
    SOMEONE HAS BEEN MISQUOTING MISS MANNERS.
    
    This is serious. The woman you refer to is either lying or cannot
    read; Miss Manners has explicitly *put down* the concept of plastic
    covers on furniture, of demanding large expenditures of money for
    weddings without regard to family circumstance, and to all the other
    abuses of etiquette to which you refer. For example, while Miss
    Manners admits that it is still traditional for the bride's family
    (not "father," "family") to pay for the wedding ceremony, she tempers
    this by suggesting that, for example, if the bride has been married
    once already she may be assumed to be able to handle subsequent
    ceremonies herself. Miss Manners would be appalled to find herself
    being misquoted for the purpose of charging a fancy party to someone
    else...

    But I can't blame you for cringing at the concept of etiquette.
    As I mentioned before, Miss M. is unique in her ability to explain
    the use of etiquette to smooth the path for social relationships,
    not to make it a trap in which to catch the uninitiated. All other
    etiquette advisors - especially the wedding ones, who seem to be
    the worst - do tend to dictate the "rules" without explaining them
    or attempting to adjust them to modern situations.
    
    -b

re .32:
    
>	A dear friend of mine had a mother who obeyed Miss Manners like it 
>was a bible.  This woman, would, for instance, demand at the door that all 
>guests wash their hands [even if you looked spotless].  Her living room was 
>covered in covers for years [I never saw the covers off the furniture].
    
    She didn't get this from Miss Manners.  Miss Manners would think
    it rude to force all of your guests to wash their hands at the door.
    I don't think Miss Manners cares whether or not the furniture is
    covered.  It doesn't sound like you've really *read* Miss Manners
    much, (nor has your friend's mother) or you wouldn't be making such
    ignorant comments.  Are you sure you're not thinking about Emily
    Post's Etiquette or someone else of that era?  Really, Miss Manners
    is a pretty "hip" lady.

    	-Ellen

    It occurs to me that there may be some confusion as to just who
    Miss Manners is. In times past the name was, I gather, used as a
    generic term for the Spirit of Etiquette (sort of a Tooth Fairy
    of Table Manners). However, the one we've been referring to is a
    columnist named Judith Martin who writes as Miss Manners. If the
    woman mentioned in .32 was referring to "manners in general," she
    has not put words in the mouth of *our* Miss Manners.
    
    She's still wrong, though. 
        
    -b

    The "Miss_Manners_Column" version of etiquette is, I think, much
    more European than American.  When I was in France, I saw a lot
    of people get the huge_slap_in_the_face snub of perfectly cold manners.
    When a waitron thought we were really being stupid, they would call
    us mesdamoiselles with the strangest tone.. it put us right back
    in our places and was totally different from the mesdamoiselles
    they'd usually use.  Somehow the supercilious use of impeccable
    etiquette was much more effective than anything else I've run into.
    
    Lee

I guess I just got hit with a double-whammy of a woman who would quote the 
etiquette out of context, followed by reading columns where I couldn't 
equate with how much 'defecation' you were supposed to put up with in 
dealing with a bad situation.

Gee, ma, is this how predjudices are made?

Some quotes from _Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior_: 

    On the purpose of manners:
        
    "All right, Miss Manners will give you an example, although you are
    spoiling her Queen Victoria mood:  If you are rude to your ex-husband's
    new wife at your daughter's wedding, you will make her feel smug.
    Comfortable.  If you are charming and polite, you will make her feel
    uncomfortable.  Which do you want to do? 

    About business entertaining:
    
    "Business entertaining is rather a curious term, Miss Manners has
    always thought.  What is amusing, pray, about having to work overtime
    and to pretend that it is just the same as having a real social
    life with real friends? ... 
    
    "For business dinners ... it is customary to invite the spouses
    or their equivalents as an acknowledement that the event will be
    occupying private time.  If these people have any sense, they won't
    go, anyway.  For that matter, the employees should be able to regard
    these activities as optional overtime.
    
    "Large-scale business luncehon or dinner parties will succeed in the
    proportion that they imitate real social events.  Correct invitations,
    a prominent guest of honor or important occasion as an excuse, good
    food and drink, and a decent amount of general conversation help to
    lull people into thinking that they are they there because they want to
    be, not because they have to be for the sake of their careers. ...
    
    "Anyone who attempts to have fun in the usual social way -- overeating,
    overdrinking, heavy flirting -- would be jeopardizing his or her
    career.  So enjoy these occasions, but just don't have a good time.
    That's what friends are for."
    
    About weddings:
    
    "You, out there in Brideland, you sweet thing:  Are you planning your
    wedding so that it will be perfect in every detail?  Do you expect it
    to be the happiest day of your life?  Miss Manners sincerely hopes not. 
    
    "Few of those who prattle about that 'happiest day' seem to consider
    the dour expectations this suggests about the marriage from its second
    day on.  They don't realize that a wedding reception is basically a
    large party, and is therefore not perfectable because there are too
    many variables, not to mention too many people who one thought would
    not accept.  At any rate, someone whose idea of ultimate happiness is a
    day spent at a big party, even spent being the center of attention at a
    marvelous big party, is too young to get married." 
    
    More on weddings:
    
    "Such silliness [as should the bride's grandfather's live-in girlfriend
    be sent a corsage] has got to stop.  The supposition behind these
    questions is that a wedding is a set piece, with rigidly prescribed
    roles, that the wedding party must be ruthlessly cast to fit the parts,
    and, as is the way of the theater, too bad for those who won't do. 
    
    "What is the historical precedent for this series of tableuax? Miss
    Manners, being a scholar, is aware that wedding customs are a jumble of
    evolving traditions, and that even the proper Victorian wedding was
    much more a part of the bride's family's own style of entertainment
    than an abstract law of correctness for all.  In fact, the only wedding
    custom with a pretense to long tradition and universality, that of
    public checking up on the consummation of the marriage, seems to have
    been dropped.  Miss Manners can't think why. . . 
    
    "So what happens if you have more people than you need for some
    roles, such as mothers, and fewer for others?  Dear brides, you
    rewrite the script to fit the company.  You group your relatives
    as makes sense to you and them, in terms of their closeness to you
    and toleration for one another, and you arrange a wedding party
    that includes your friends, whatever their size, shape, and number.
    
    "If you complain that this is not correct or traditional, Miss Manners
    will come around and check up on you the next morning."
    
    I couldn't find a specific reference to the practice of inviting
    business associates to the wedding of one's child, but I think the
    above quotes make it plain enough what her opinion would be.... 

    --bonnie

    DEAR MISS MANNERS:
    
    As a businessman, how do I allow a businesswoman to pay for my lunch?
    
    GENTLE READER:
    
    With credit card or cash, as she prefers.

THSCKLORRRRP! [Sound of foot being extracted from mouth]

I stand corrected.  I happened across a rogue copy of today's Boston Globe 
which had the Miss Manners column in it.  I read it with tounge planted 
firmly in cheek and I think I [finally, after years] get the message.

Is there a 'bashful' smiley face for being slightly embarassed?

Maybe I'll check my sources a little more carefully in the future.  For all 
I know, my friend may have been confusing Emily Post [whom I've never 
read] with Miss Manners.  The only thing I ever hear on Post was in an 
article regarding a certain economy car:

	"However, when accelerating from a stop light, the <I-forget-what> 
	is Emily-Post-Polite; Everyone Else Goes First."

Thanx for eliminating yet-another-misconception. :-)

dj

    I found the text I was looking for, in which the divine Miss M.
    tackles at least a part of the problem mentioned in .0 - the terms
    to use when referring to (as opposed to addressing) women. It's
    longish, but both appropriate and amusing.
    
    -b
    *******************************************************************
    
    "People of all sorts of genders are reporting great difficulty,
    these days, in selecting the proper words to refer to those of the
    female persuasion.
    
    "'Lady,' 'woman,' and 'girl' are all perfectly good words, but
    misapplying them can earn one anything from the charge of vulgarity
    to a good swift smack. We are messing here with matters of deference,
    condescension, respect, bigotry, and two vague concepts, age and
    rank. It is troubling enough to get straight who is really what.
    Those who deliberately misuse the terms in a misbegotten attempt
    at flattery are asking for it.
    
    "A woman is any grown-up female person. A girl is the un-grown-up
    version. If you call a wee thing with chubby cheeks and pink hair
    ribbons a 'woman,' you will probably not get into trouble, and if
    you do, you will be able to handle it because she will be under
    three feet tall. However, if you call a grown-up by a child's name
    for the sake of implying that she has a youthful body, you are also
    implying that she has a brain to match.
    
    "As for ladies, they come in three varieties: ladies, old ladies,
    and young ladies. The term 'lady' is the most difficult to use.
    You must not be influenced by having noticed that Miss Manners refers
    to all of her acquaintances as ladies (or gentlemen). Miss Manners
    is prim and old-fashioned, which is part of her considerable charm,
    and can get away with anything. For anyone else to use the term
    'lady' when 'woman' is meant would be vulgar or even insulting.
    
    "A lady is someone who adheres to a rather special and graceful
    standard of behavior, only nobody knows what it is. This makes it
    great fun for old ladies to set obscure, tricky, and clever tests
    by which to trap aspiring ladies.
    
    "'A lady never goes out of the house without a hat and gloves,'
    is an example of this that put in years of service. What made it
    so good while it lasted was that it could be used to eliminate every
    woman who went out on her porch early to fetch the paper and mail.
    If Miss Manners had to come up with a modern version, she would
    say that a lady may use an occasional obscene word in exasperation,
    but never on her T-shirt.
    
    "What restricts the use of the word 'lady' among the courteous is
    that it is intended to set a woman apart from ordinary humanity,
    and in the working world that is not a help, as women have discovered
    in many bitter ways.

    "'Lady' is, therefore, a word that should be used sparingly, and
    never in ways that interfere with a woman's livelihood. Because
    it should be a term of respect, its potential for sarcastic use
    is staggering, and snideness is always presumed when the word is
    used inappropriately, as in 'lady lawyer' or 'saleslady'.
    
    "Because respect should be accorded to the aged, an elderly female
    is called an old lady, not an old woman, unless she is a particularly
    nasty old thing and you think you can get away with it. 'Young lady'
    is also a special category. A young lady is a female child who has
    just done something dreadful."

    - from "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior",
    by Judith Martin

    Oh, me, oh, my, and I'm sitting here in a t-shirt that reads
            CALIF***ingFORNIA"
    
    I think from all of this we can conclude that a person would be
    fairly safe if he or she made sure to use "lady" only in a context
    when the term "gentleman" would be the appropriate term to use for
    a man in the same situation. 
    
    The offense lies in the mismatch -- "men" as opposed to "ladies",
    who belong in cotton wool.
    
    --bonnie

    re .42  Thanks for a simple elegant solution.

    	My great aunt (born approximately 1870) used to define good
    manners as "the art of making the other person feel comfortable".
    She was a lady in the sense of most of the definitions that were
    current about 50 years ago, and I am sure that if she had ever found
    herself in a dockyard pub' she would have attempted to use the correct
    swear words. (Though I think she would have had difficulty changing
    her accent).
    
    	So, if you refer to somebody as "lady", and they make you feel
    uncomfortable about it, you used the wrong term.  :-)  :-)
    
    	Incidentally, my wife was delighted (read "amused") to discover
    that, at least according to one dictionary definition, she is entitled
    to be referred to as "esquire" and append "Esq." to her name.