Conference turris::womannotes-v1

Ahh, my all-time favorite topic: stupid ads.

We saw a Lee Rider Jeans commercial last night, which showed a number of
very slim, attractive women dressed in leotards "struggling" to get into
their jeans.  The background music had a really driving beat, and the
voice-over said that finally there was a pair of jeans that would end this
"struggle", they were made to fit, or something like that.  

If they're tailoring western-style jeans for a woman's body instead of
making women fit into jeans for a man's body, that's nice. They could have
found a much better way to get the message across, however. The ads for Chic
jeans, which actually come in waist/length sizes, do a better job.  The idea
of these particular women with no hips struggling to get into their jeans is
ludicrous -- what about the rest of the world?

Here's the message I got: "If you look like these women, you must have
problems finding clothes big enough to fit you. We're doing you a favor by
finally making clothing to fit `hard-to-fit' women. Obviously the only
hard-to-fit women are the ones that look like these. Anyone else -- just
give it up." They're pushing the women-must-be-slim message, and ignoring
almost everyone, because hardly anyone looks like these models. By seeing
them over and over, everyone believes that they should look like them.

It could have been an ad promoting anorexia as well as an ad promoting jeans.

					-- hs

    The "Ring around the collar" commercial is a classic put down also.

      Any Brooke Shields ads for "Her Calvin Kleins"
    
                              REK

"The idea of these particular women with no hips struggling to get into their 
jeans is ludicrous -- what about the rest of the world?"

We must've been watching the same station.  I saw that same commercial and had
the same thought.  Sheesh!  I've been struggling to get my jeans on lately and 
I've got alot of shape, something those models were lacking!  Stupid.

CQ

Here's another of my recent favorites: it's for some fancy hotel in Boston.

They show a woman checking into the hotel, going up to her room, and
settling in. She goes into the bathroom, and scene changes, but not until we
see a back view of her dropping her robe as she's getting into the bath. The
camera's on her only until the robe slips down to her mid-back. 

Showing some skin is totally irrelevant to advertising a hotel. They must do
it as something to keep the attention of the male viewers, figuring that no
one'll really notice it or care if they do notice.q

    re .1:
    
    Gee, I had a completely different impression of what the ad was
    trying to say. Seemed to me that they were putting down jeans such
    as CHIC that generally are worn so tight that one wonders how
    they are put on (thus the images of even slim women rolling around
    trying to get their pants on.) LEE seemed to be saying that jeans
    don't have to be skin-tight to be "sexy".
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

re: .7

Well, I don't have any idea if Chic jeans are skin-tight or not, all I know
is that they come in real sizes (waist/length combinations instead of single
size numbers), which for women's clothing is very unusual (why is that,
anyway? women come in sizes, why don't their clothing? Another note
perhaps...).

Your interpretation might well be true, but if Lee is trying to say that
there is now an alternative to  skin-tight jeans, they'd have shown some
women with real bodies struggling to get dressed.  There are a lot of people
out there who don't fit into perfect-body clothes, and images like this
isn't going to make it better for any of them.  All it'll do is convince
them that they're too fat, for if these skinny women can't fit into their
clothing, what chance does anyone else have?

There's also the angle that they were all wearing leotards, which showed off
their bodies nicely.  Who were they showing off to? Clearly men will notice
that in the ad, but we're not likely to buy women's clothing.  All I can
figure is that they're selling women a picture of what they're supposed to
look like.  If anyone has any insights into how they're marketing to women,
I'd really like to find out.

I'm a little bit of a prude when it comes to advertisements; I don't care if
it's men or women, but using sex (nudity, partial nudity) or the promise of
a better life ("you'll look like this if ...", or "you'll live this happy
life if ...") is the wrong way to sell stuff.  If you've got something to
sell, tell me why it's good or why it's better than the rest of the goop on
the market; don't insult my intelligence.

					-- hal 

    The Lee ad may have been aimed at selling women's jeans to women. But
    it also was trying to sell name recognition on the Lee name.
    
    This I suspect has a lot to do with the use of women in leotards.
    
    As another example there is an ad for Wrangler (I think) that shows a 
    woman patting her back pocket and showing the Wrangler label. This self
    same ad runs with variations all over the world. One of the variations
    is that in France she isn't wearing the jeans (or anything else), the
    outline of the pocket being picked out in a dotted line on her skin.
    
    What is acceptable in a given country is largely based on that county's
    attitudes, and what the advertising industry in that country can get
    away with. But it does seem to me that they perpetrate a lot of unnecesary
    excesses in the name of catching people's attention.
    
    /. Ian .\

    sure, commercials are showing us what we are supposed to be like,
    but that's just reinforcing what we already know (from the last
    umpty-ump ads we've seen). the immediate message is that if we buy
    and use the product, we WILL HAVE those attributes, and smell nice
    and look young and groovy, and have innumerable objects of desire
    throwing themselves at us. in a talk at the cambridge forum, it
    was claimed that it's almost better if the commercial DOES jar your
    sensibilities in some way, because you will remember the product.
    
    and sure, mad ave uses sex, because it is unversal... we all want
    to be attractive in our own ways, and sex is the easiest way to
    get our attention.
    
    i think that advertising takes advantage of prevailing attitudes
    more than creating new ones, however. there are still a lot of people
    who are not turned off by being insulted in this way. when enough
    people care enough to write to sponsors and complain; when enough
    people stop buying those products, advertising may change...  ya
    gotta teach your kids.
    
    /bruce

re: .10 (bruce) 

>i think that advertising takes advantage of prevailing attitudes
>more than creating new ones, however

I'd say that they do what they can get away with, which may just be
restating what you said.  The key is to not let them get away with it.

> when enough people care enough to write to sponsors and complain ...

I used to do this a lot. On the one hand, it made me feel good to have 
my side heard (o  whatever the issue was), but on the other hand, it gets
boring after awhile. The problem is that the worst offenders never reply,
and the others deny that they're doing anything wrong.  Now, if a lot of
people would do it, we'd have a movement going... (what are the appropriate
words from "Alice's Restaurant"?)

> when enough people stop buying those products, advertising may change...  

I don't think that this will work nearly as well as complaining (my favorite
activity).  If 100 people don't buy Acme Goop, the manufacturers won't
notice the difference, but if they get 100 letters, they might wise up and
realize that no one likes blue-striped goop, and they'd better make in red.

					-- hs

    and then there are those of us who neither see the ads nor buy the
    product because we hardly ever watch the tube...amazing how how much less
    influence "big business" has under those circumstances... 

    Do you all remember the ad from Ma Bell/AT&T that was for Call-Waiting?
    It showed a bunch of people who got phone calls because of call-waiting
    and at the end showed a man who was too busy to take the call but
    could "call her back"?  Originally, it said that the man's phone
    call was from his MOTHER-IN-LAW.  I was incensed by the way they
    treated this.  Apparently so were quite a few other people, because
    miraculously after a couple of weeks the voice-over was changed
    to say that the call was from his BOSS, and he would call HER back.
    :-)
               Carol  

    You know, I don't know the last time that I purchased a pair or
    jeans and I wouldn't know what was "best" for me either because
    I don't look like anyone in the ads.  I did "see" a pair of jeans
    in a magazine (I forget who made them) and the woman was wearing
    a crisp white shirt and reflector sunglasses and the outfit really
    looked like something I wanted to wear.  But, because of the model
    they chose, I just know they wouldn't look good on me.  It's too
    bad because they are cute.
    
    Oh, well, living and loving in my old faded Lee baggie jeans (which
    aren't baggie anymore)  Sniffle.....

    I never really paid much attention to commercials till I saw
    this entry.  
    Yesterday am I heard on the radio an ad I enjoyed after reading
    a previous entry about how professional women are portrayed...
    
    (Phone conversation between woman exec and male friend)
    male: want to go to dinner tonight?
    woman: no, I'm depressed, my presentation at the board meeting didn't
    go to well, and I spent quit a few hours getting the statistics
    etc..... put together(alot of conversation as to what went into
    the presentation..)
    male: why don't you quit you job, lets get married, you can stay
    home and have kids and and take care of the house and me.....
    
    the phone is hung up.....
    
    I loved it!
    
    vivian
    

    Whatever were they advertising??  :-)

Wang Lab's has recently been running a series of ads where a Wang
person makes a presentation to some big company and the customer
stands up and cheers ('cause they're so good).  They seem to have
a lot of women salespeople (though they're not presented in any
sort of sexy manner).

One that has stuck in my mind for a few days has a woman discussing
a presentation with her male collegue.  The text went something like
"so we made this presentation to ABC and showed them how we could
get a Dec workstation to talk to an IBM PC using Wang VS... [and so on]"

At the end, there was a mumbled aside that I couldn't quite catch.
The first time I heard it, it *almost* sounded like "then he stood up:
what a hunk!"  Since I taped the show it ran on, I listened to it
several more times, but have been totally unable to make any sense
out of it.  If anyone is able to transcribe it, I'd appreciate
knowing exactly what was said.

Martin

    Ya know, I saw that commercial too.  I thought it was a pretty good
    idea for a not so good company (profits wise, marketing saturation).
    And I too didn't catch the last line.  
    
    If you find out, let us know.

   
    RE: .17
    
    Be sure to play it backwards too so we can hear what the Devil sez.
    

    And how about that refrigerator commercial --
    
    Scene - farm kitchen with farmer, wife, several daughters that look
    15- 25 years old.  The refrigerator is one of those really old models,
    but we are carefully told that it still works and they plan to buy
    a new one from the same company.
    
    Fade to the barn - the farmer wipes off the old refrig. that has
    been moved to the barn to store milk and says to several cows that
    are standing around - "Isn't it a beauty girls!"  (He is referring
    to the refrig.
    
    Fade to the kitchen, wife and daughters - The farmer opens the brand
    new refridgerator and comments to his wife and daughters - "Isn't
    it a beauty girls!"
    
    I guess he thinks of his cows and wife and daughters the same -
    as "the girls."
    
    Sally
    

        
    The toy ads for children bother me most. Girls play with Barbie while
    boys build Robotic toys. 50% of the future genius of our nation is
    being programmed by a nearly omnipotent media to play house. What a
    waste! 
    

    
    
    My 7 year old son doesn't see too many toy ads because he doesn't
    see much, if any, commercial television.  At the Church rummage
    sale he picked up a whole pile of second hand Barbie junk to add
    to his collection.  I don't think this means he's programmed to
    play house when he grows up, but I'd rather he learned how to do
    the dishes than how to kill people.
    
    
    

	RE: Lee Jeans ad

	One comment on the leotards: they may have been a compromise in favor
	of "good taste".  Yes, they show off all of the women's figures, but
	if they showed the women in, say, bras and panties (well, what do YOU
	wear under jeans?  :-)  they'd have had a lot more dissatisfied 
	viewers!

	Do any of you really pay attention to the ads when choosing clothes?
	Personally, I greatly admire the Levis ads (those weird cartoon ones),
	but won't buy them since they don't fit me.  

	RE: toy ads for kids

	I've been very amused by the ads for Barbie dolls with the jingle
	that goes something like "we girls can do anything, right, Barbie?".
	Usually it's for something like an outfit that includes a business
	suit that transforms into a disco dress (or something equally silly).

	Boys toys, on the other hand, seem to emphasize fighting.  No, they
	don't advertise toy guns anymore; instead you can buy the superhero
	or transformer toy with battle gear....  

		Helen 

    This is really a response to a reply in another note about using
    sexy women in ads.  Whenever we see an ad with a sexy women, I
    definitely notice the women, but after the ad is over, we look at
    each other and say "What was the product?".  The whole point of
    the ad was lost because it could have been for orange juice or cars
    and all I noticed was the women.
    
    Spence

    I saw a commercial last night about Wheaties Cereal.  It showed
    "Mrs. Walter Payton" telling all about Walter and why Wheaties cereal
    is good and this and that.  Some football scenes came on and off
    of the screen.
    
    One of her last lines that she says is (paraphrase): "Walter eats
    Wheaties in the morning to pick him up.  I eat Wheaties at night
    so I can pick up after Walter" or something to that effect.
    
    The point:  he's shown working hard all day and she has to pick
    up after him when he gets home.
    
    What kind of message is that?  
    
    Another Milestone for the makers of breakfast cereal.....

    
    	You can take it two ways:
    
    	A) IT is a Sexist remark
    
    	B) The commercial makes a point that:
    
    		a) Wheaties can be eaten anytime
    		b) You don't have to be an athlete to eat Wheaties
    
    
    	Depends what you want to make of it.
    
    			Mike
    

 	Every notice that the Poundpuppy comercials are invariably with
    boys, while Pound Purries have girls?    
                
    	 Obviously dogs are "manly" pets but cats aren't. 
    
     tlh
    

>    Apparently, the makers of Wheaties feel that men who eat wheaties
>    are slobs, and need a  'professional' homemaker to clean up
>    after themselves. :^)
>    
>    Well, its one interpretation !

A guy I know (Peter Gagarin) was on the Wheaties box last year.
We all thought it was real neat how well they cleaned him up --
even combed his hair.  Based on my knowledge of Peter, I can well
agree with the "let's sell to the slobs" argument.

Martin.

    re. 28
    
    What are pound puppies and pound purries?  A twist on the old first
    grade notion that dogs are "boys" and cats are "girls"?

                                                          
    The things I miss by not being a tube addict!

    	Well, I don't watch much TV either.  (In fact the only channel
    that is guaranteed to be on at all during the day, is the weather
    channel for 15 min.  Unfortunately that's enough to give me all
    the exposure I need.) 
    
    	Pound puppies and pound Purries are stuffed animal toys (dogs
    and cats, respectively).  I believe they are made by the same people
    who brought us cabbage patch dolls.  
    
    tlh
    

    re. 31  In Fact, Cabbage Patch Dolls are created by Coleco and Pound
    Puppies/Purries are from the Tonka company.
    
    One more thing, Wheaties used to have their slogan "What the big
    boys eat" but I think that has changed.  
    
    Oh, I saw that commerical about the woman who was called up by the
    boyfriend and asked to come over but she was busy at work and had
    a headache.  Then she takes the pills and drops the job and tells
    him, it can wait.  Hmmmm....

    Heard this one on the radio yesterday.  I have changed the company
    name, but I want to keep the idea.
    
    Man:  I got a tune-up at the discount price of $39, but found out what
    I really needed was a $3 battery cable.  I guess it wasn't such a
    bargain after all. 
    
    Woman:  I got my car tuned up for only $49 for all 9 cylinders.
    But my car still wouldn't run.
    
    Another man:  Yes, what she really needed was a major carburetor
    adjustment.  At Wizo-tune, we use our super-wizo machine to diagnose
    what's wrong with your car before we do any work....
    
    My problem with this commercial is that while both the man and woman
    had the wrong repair done to their cars, why does the man sound
    reasonable, and they make the woman sound like she doesn't know
    what end is up (9 cylinders?  How about 4, 6, 8, 12?), and needs
    to have the man explain what is wrong with the car, when the male
    customer can explain what is wrong himself.
    
    Elizabeth

re .33

Why did you change the company name when describing the commercial?

The reason I ask is it brought to mind something that I'll relate here.
Several years ago I heard a Toyota commercial on the radio which I
considered extremely sexist.  At that point I decided I would never
own a Toyota.  I feel the same way to this day.

One day I had a discussion about the commercial with a friend who
pointed out that commercials are simply hype, and they should never
persuade one to either buy or not buy whatever the commercial is
selling.  Make your decision on whether or not to buy a product based
on its merits; not based on what some advertising agency thinks will
bring in the money.

Hummmmm, well that makes sense, but I wonder how other people feel.

Boycotting Toyota all by my lonesome will probably not make any
significant difference to them.  But it does to me.  I cringe at the
thought of buying a Toyota, just as I cringe at the thought of buying
Whisk (of ring-around-the-collar fame).  I don't think I let commercials
sway my buying decisions often - I won't run out to buy something, just
because I see a neat commercial.  BUT, if I am in the market for
something already (a new car, toothpaste, etc), and I remember a sexist
commercial for a particular brand, I will avoid it.

Comments?

					Karen.

    More effective than a personal boycott would be a letter to the
    company explaining why you're boycotting. At least they'd know that
    their style was unacceptable and causing them to lose customers.
    
    liz

    I drive a Toyota for performance and the reality that "this" particular
    foreign car offered a lot more for my money than an American car
    at the time (1983).  I will go American as soon as the Sundance
    has been on the market for 1.5 years.  That way I will know if it
    is worth a shot.
    
    Those Toyota commercials are "phoney".  That man in the commercial, who
    will probably never get a movie or a t.v. sitcom is just so
    enthusiastic about those vehicles.   I wonder if he's this way at
    home.  I doubt it.  But, he puts on a good show.
    
    As for Nissan, I don't think I like the idea of several cheerleaders
    and band leaders dancing around my new 300 ZX.  I want to drive
    my car, not dance around it.
    
    Got to hand it to them: that jingle sticks in your mind, even while
    you sleep.

    Speaking of cars, how about the dealers calling themselves the "Dodge
    Boys", which is a decades-old slogan, or the newer "Men from Nissan"
    (or however they word it). Don't they allow women to sell cars?

    re .37
    or buy them? 
    when i was car shopping, a number of dealers lost my business by
    addressing robert (and ignoring me) AFTER they were told that I 
    was buying the car, and HE was along for the ride... 

    Did anyone see the commercials on NBC last night for the new IBM
    PC System 2 (or whatever the heck they call it?)  That was great
    (oops, I work for DEC).  No, really, it was well done and seeing
    my old M*A*S*H favorites was very surprizing.
    
    One thing, it was VERY interesting that when Radar (what's his real
    name) was describing the "unbelievable power", the camera moves
    to Loretta Switt who says, "did somebody mention power".  That was
    pretty neat and very much a "selling" feature to businesses.
    
    I saw three different commericals with the MASH cast.  You got to
    check it out, for curiosity's sake.
    
    If only DEC had commercials, I'd write for them....
    
    Cathy

    
    RE .37:
    
    	"Dodge Boys" may not be all that sexist after all.  After all,
    	  DB (which was what the Dodge was originally called), stood
    	  for Dodge Brothers, as it was two brothers who developed
    	  the car.
    
    	On the same line, they have a commercial here in Ga. for a
    	 local bank.  The main theme is that there are always 2 bankers
    	 in each commercial; 1 male, 1 female.  The end of the commercial
    	 is like this:
    
    		MAN: "Your Anchor banker, he understands."
    
    		WOMAN: "That's right.  You're Anchor banker, *SHE* under-
    			stands."  (emphasis hers)

    	They vary the commercials though, so sometimes the man is last
    	 with the "*HE* understands" portion.
    
    	It's not a wonderful commercial (is there such a thing :-)),
    	 but at least they try not to offend anyone.
    
    
    			Happy Weekending!
    
    				-Rich

re: .35

"theres power in numbers"

I heard a talk given by a Boston Group who specialized in showing why sexism 
hurts EVERYONE when used in commercials, and what they ARE doing about it.

At the time (about 1982) they had had some effect. The people to contact (if 
they still exist) is (actually use this group to get the name of the group in 
Boston. (Concord Mens Support Group, So. Main Street, COncord, NH, 033103)
< used to be the sme location as the Feminist Health Center>.

The grouop tended to be very political in getting things done, and didn't 
"seem" to offer much in the way of "support". Ce la vie' !

Bob

    Has anybody seen the FAB detergent ad in which the camera follows every
    curve of an athletic-looking man as he dresses - accompanied by a
    bump-and-grind burlesque tune?? 
    
    It occurred to me that if the spot had featured a woman, some people
    (maybe even I) would have gotten upset about it. As it featured
    a man instead, should I be amused? Or glad to see the men getting equal
    time? :-) 
    
    -b

    I know this isn't about commercials, but it is about tv....
    Last night I was at my mom's with my daughter and older brother.
    We were watching Valerie, (I know, usual dumb stuff show), this
    particular program was about the oldest son who meets a girl again
    that he knew when he was young.  Anyway, lust abounds.  The son
    is sleeping on the couch, the girl, upstairs.  After a night out,
    they go to their respective beds, later the girl comes downstairs
    and climbs in bed with the son, says lets do *it*, he asks her what
    kind of protection is she using, she says none, she thinks it's
    ok.....  blah blah....
    Anyway, I made the observation to my mom, that this is the 3rd familiy
    show, that the innocent little son, who is just coming into his
    manhood, is being literaly attacked by a dip-sh** girl with no morals
    leaving the boy a man when he explains to the girl why they can't,
    or about *protection*.  My 8 year old daughter asked me, is that
    the way girls are supposed to act?  Are they supposed to be the
    agressive one(not her exact wording)  Are they supposed to depend
    on the *boys* morals in this kinda  situation?  My mom, was shocked!
    I tried to explain, with my brothers sexist comments being ignored,
    so PJ(my daughter) and  I left, and had a talk about responsibility
    in life that one has to take onto themselves for their own actions
    etc.....  
    the point of this rambleing is, has anyone else noticed how young
    girls are being portrayed by the media?  How the young boys are
    the virtuous ones being perverted by the young girls???  Am I just
    seeing more into the roles then was meant to be????
    hmmm, just wondering.
    
    vivian

    
    Pardon me for sticking my neck on the block, but maybe it's media
    backlash.  TV got tired of being bitched at for portraying women
    as helpless objects under the direction of male whims.  This phenomenon
    you are observing is the typical quick-fix, moronic alternative
    of mass media -- they're just making the goofy ones female instead
    of male.  The relationship to real people is tenuous at best.
    
    No matter how you slice it, it comes up idiotic.  Your response
    (to tell your daughter something about responsibility) was the optimum
    one, in my opinion.  If more parents were aware that this is the
    sort of response to make to something you see in the media you don't
    approve of, we would all be better off.
    
    One man's opinion,
    DFW

re: .43, .44

    It's a tough call.  On the one hand, it'd be nice if the media only
    portrayed people doing "the right thing", but we'd have to decide who
    gets to decide what right is.  In this case, there may only be one
    "right thing", but some would argue that they shouldn't be having sex
    anyway.

    On the other hand, portraying the man asking "what kind of protection
    do you use" is a good switch [did he ask what *she* was using, or what
    *they* would use?]. It shows that it's ok for men/boys to be concerned.
    They should both be concerned, but it's not like this never happens.

    Nice that you can talk with your kids, vivian.

    					-- hs