Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Well I will jump in and say that yes I do think you are over reacting.
    *Very* few children are abducted etc. by strangers. Most cases it
    is by someone that they already knew at least a little or a relative.
    Also you can make the distinction with children that it is alrightto
    be friendly with strangers as long as you are present and o.k. it.
    I have seen several cases of very small children reacting in a
    frigthened and hostile fashion to adults in doctor's offices etc. and
    I think this is both unnecessary and very sad. It is important to
    balance the need to keep a child safe with helping a child have
    positive feelings about himself and the world around him.
    
    People used to comment on my children when they were babies. I would
    smile and thank them for compliments and perhaps have a short chat
    with them. I would also tell the kids not to talk to people when
    I wasn't there. This allows them to safely smile at and be nice
    to people in the store (for an example) but to be careful where
    it is appropriate.
    
    Bonnie

    No, I DO NOT think you are being overprotective.  If only
    one child is abducted by a stranger-and if that child hap-
    pens to be yours-then you perhaps were not protective e-
    nough.
    
    I watch my son like a hawk. Now that he's 7 years old, he 
    feels he is too old to use the women's restroom.  So he 
    goes to the men's room alone-with mom lurking by the door
    outside. 
    
    And I make sure that he reads books and articles and comics
    aimed at educating children about dangerous situations, and
    how to react.  We discuss these things also.
    
    We've gone over the routine should there ever be a fire in
    the house.  It makes just as much sense to warn him of pos-
    sible dangers from strangers.
    
    He's a very sociable little guy, so he seems to realize that
    not every person represents a threat.  But, should he ever be
    in a dangerous situation, I hope my caution will save his life.
    He's much too precious for me to risk losing.
    
    

    I'm with Bonnie.  I taught my kids that they mustn't be made to go
    *anywhere* with *any* adult apart from members of a small, well-defined
    list [teacher, principal, the parents of their friends up the street,
    uniformed city cop (and they knew the difference between a real one and
    a rent-a-cop) etc], but that otherwise they needn't worry.  
    
    I don't know whether it was inspired advice on my part or we were
    all just lucky but they all three grew up with no unusual fear and
    no trauma.
    
    						=maggie 
    

    Re: .4
    
    Or, borrowing from a sign I've seen at cat shows:
    
    		Do you believe in an afterlife?
    		Touch my kid and find out!
    
    Seriously, I recall a couple of situations that made me very
    nervous.  When Tommy was maybe six to nine months old, a woman
    with a baby girl approached us and asked if she could hold Tommy
    for a moment, handing me her daughter.  I nervously agreed, though
    I think I would not do so today.  After a minute, we re-exchanged
    kids and went on our way.
    
    Just last weekend, Tom (now 3) and I were in a mall, and he was
    skipping ahead of me by about 30 feet.  I could see him clearly,
    so that was ok.  He passed by a maintenance worker who called out
    to Tom and motioned for him to come over.  Tom stopped, looked at
    me, and did not move.  I quickly collected Tom and moved on, praising
    him for not going to strangers.  The worker probably thought he
    was being friendly, but I felt like (but did not) warning him that
    such actions look very bad to parents.
    
    In a way, it's a shame.  I believe that, in a sense, children belong
    to all of us.  I don't hesitate to admire children, or talk to them
    when their parents are nearby, but I NEVER touch them, or offer
    them anything.  I just think how I would feel in a similar situation.
    Tommy is the only child I have - if I lost him, by any cause, I
    don't think I could cope.  Thus I'm very cautious and aware of what
    he's doing at all times.
    					Steve

    re "touch my kid and you die" attitude:
    
    This kind of attitude reinforces the "brat-hating" attitude I often
    find in myself (and much worse in a large segment of society) as in the
    comeback "S'okay, Lady, you couldn't *pay* me enough to touch your
    smelly brat!  How presumptuous of you to think I'd be interested
    in your little slug!" :-)
    
    	-Ellen

                                                     
    The following response was written by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous at this time.                  
    
    						=maggie
    
    ==============================================================

    A few years ago when my youngest daughter was about 11 she received an
    obscene phone call shortly after she had gotten home from school and
    was alone in the house.  (I am a single parent and was at work).  Now I
    had educated both my daughters about obscene phone calls and strangers
    coming to the door when they are home alone, etc.  But this one in
    particular really scared her because the man told her that he "had" me
    and if she didn't want her mother to be hurt she would do what he said.
    I won't go into details about what else he said to her and asked her to
    do but I think as adults you can all imagine.  She was terrified but
    finally got off the phone by not replying to anything else that he
    said.  (Guess he got bored when he didn't get a response out of her!)
    Then she called her friend down the street from us and had her walk
    down to our house to meet her and went back to her friends house.  She
    didn't know where this "creep" was that had called but was too scared
    to stay in our house alone.  They called her friends mother and told
    her a little of what happened.  The mother called me at work and I went
    home immediately.  My daughter would not even talk about the call with
    ME!  That surprised me as we are very close, but she was terribly
    embarassed.  She DID talk with her older sister tho, who in turn drew
    me into the conversation and we talked it all out.  We also went to the
    police station to file a report.  And they told us they had had a
    series of reports of such calls. 

    The part that bothered me, tho, was that my daughter thought she
    recognized the man's voice.  He is an acquaintance of mine who is
    married and who my daughter had baby-sat for before.  (He also works
    for DEC!) But we were never able to prove who it was, so I will not
    make any accusations. However, I don't allow her to baby-sit for this
    person any more!  He asked her to baby-sit shortly after that incidence
    and it was all I could do to keep my cool but I had no proof he had
    done anything wrong.  However, there was no way that I would ever let
    her baby-sit for him again!  He had always driven her home in the past
    and I didn't want him to be alone with her! I know him to be very
    outspoken and could easily believe he could make obscene phone calls,
    but found it hard to believe he could include threats about me!
    However, as I said, I have no proof it was him, but it was someone who
    knew all our names and knew that I wasn't at home. 

    The incidence bothered my daughter for several months after that but as
    time went by she was more and more able to talk about it and I feel she
    is "over it" now, but I wonder just how that will color her
    relationships with men and dating in the future! 

    I agree with Kerry.  Children, especially little children, are far
    too vulnerable and need all the protection they can get.  My boys
    were taught from a very early age that if they were ever in a 
    situation that they felt they couldn't handle they were to call
    me immediately or insist that I be called.  Being a single parent
    is frightening.  Kids have to be taught to be "street smart" today.
    Most adults would freak at being touched by a stranger in a public
    place.  Why would we ever permit a stranger to touch our children?
    Any situation that we allow is a learning experience for our child.
    Is that what we want them to learn?

    
    Our 6yr old has a drill we run through every time we go
    out to a mall, park, fairground, etc.
    
    Dad/Mom: 	Who do you talk to?
    Geoffrey:	No one
    Dad/Mom:	What if some one calls you over?
    Geoffrey:	Ignore them.                    
    Dad/Mom:	If they come toward you?
    Geoffrey:	Walk away. Run if they go fast.
    Dad/Mom:	If they grab or touch you?              
    Geoffrey:	Scream like HELL! (Only time we allow him to curse)
    Dad/Mom:	How do you get help?
    Geoffrey:	Use a phone. Dial 0 for operator. Call home
    		if I can (he knows the number & address).
    

    Paranoid? You bet. We have two healthy children who have
    good personalities, good looks, & wonderful spirits, and
    no one is going to spoil that without a fight. Geoffrey
    has developed street smarts & we talk about "strangers"
    and "dangers" when we're out. Elizabeth (1yr) will get
    the same training at the right age. Our children will not
    be ignorant of the dangers, even if that means they're
    suspicious of most people at first.
    
    My dad was abused as a boy by a neighbor. He was 8, but had
    no idea what was happening. He couldn't talk to anyone. I was
    lucky enough (dorky enough?) to be passed over. My children
    know the facts, the procedure, & the most important part in all
    this: that they can tell us anything, & that we'll love them
    no matter what happens, that it is not their fault, and that
    they always do their best in our eyes. 
    
    Two years ago a molester roamed the neighborhood. Geoffrey wanted
    to know why he should be afraid. We had one of those long talks.
    There he was, cuddled up with his blanket & bear, & there I was
    explaining that molesters wanted to touch or hurt children. After
    I tucked him in, I went out in the living room & cried. And what
    is in store for our daughter? 
    
    Indeed: touch my children & you will die. And if that makes you
    hate children all the better. Stay away from us, & we'll oblidge
    you in like fashion.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    

    Paranoid? no: paranoia implies that the behaviour is in some sense
    irrational or non-sane.
    
    However I do find this degree of fear unfortunate. Because of the behaviour
    of (presumably) a minute minority of the population, the rest of us
    have to modify our behaviour, and suppress behaviour patterns that are
    totally innocuous in intent.
    
    Example: I was once lost in a strange neighbourhood. I pulled up alongside
    some children (the only humans in sight) to ask directions, and before
    I could even wind down the window to ask they had run off screaming
    to their houses. Fortunately I found a policeman to give me directions
    soon afterwards.
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    

    re -1:
    >"stay away from us, & we'll oblige you in like fashion."
    
    Does that mean you'll keep your screaming brats out of every restaurant,
    museum, park, concert, or show at which I happen to be?  Off the
    streets, out of my yard, and out of earshot?  And even when they get
    to be teenagers?  That's great!

    Leave you alone and you'll leave me alone, huh?  I am very glad that
    most parents are not as paranoid as you are.  I would never have
    children to greet, talk to, or laugh with.
    
    	-Ellen

    re .12
    I appreciate your concern for their safety, but at the same time
    I shudder to think that if I were in the grocery line behind you,
    and made eye contact with one of the children, and said a few words
    to them, or put out a hand to steady a child who stood up in the
    carriage while the parent was busy writing a check, you would deck
    me one.
    
    I usually assume that parents will not mind friendly and respectful
    interactions with their children in a waiting-type situation IF
    the parents are right near by and able to monitor the situation.
    As a former teacher, it comes totally naturally for me.
    
    But maybe for my own safety, I should adopt a stony stare.  How
    sad...
          

    I frequently talk to children while waiting in lines, especially
    if their parent is nearby and even more so if I have my own son
    along.  I have never yet encountered a situation where the parent
    took offense.  As long as one keeps one's distance and doesn't
    say things the parent might find annoying, everyone seems to
    enjoy it.
    
    A side note - though this note is in WOMANNOTES, it, like many other
    recent entries, is not really specific to females.  This could
    have been started in PARENTING, or HUMAN_RELATIONS.  I suppose that
    as a moderator of HUMAN_RELATIONS, I like to see topics brought
    up in that conference when reasonable.  (Files are SABRE::PARENTING
    and QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS, FYI.)
    
    					Steve

    
    re. 13, 15, 16
    
    If I'm alongside I have no problem with anyone talking with
    our children. Our 6yr old doesn't always cling to us, so the
    instructions are for him when he is by himself or accidentally
    separated from us. 
                       
    re. 14  I got the idea in your earlier note. God forbid
    I should ever run into you with or without my children...
    

    	The reason why I entered this note is because I wanted opinions
    from women other than my wife's. I apologize if I have antagonized
    you. Since a lot of women are mothers I thought this was the place
    to asked the question. I am glad to see that there are others who
    think this is an issue too. 
    
    	Also I think some of you got the wrong idea. I am all for normal
    interaction. And I think my kids may do it better than I do. But
    I think there are limits to what a parent will take from a total
    stranger.
    
    
    	

    I think it is prefectly appropriate to bring this topic up
    here. It might be worth while to post it in parenting also
    and see what diferent sorts of answers might be given.
    
    I think I would make a clear distinction between allowing little
    children to talk to people in a waiting type situation (store,
    doctor's office) where a parent is present and allowing strangers
    to touch kids, or talk to them when parents aren't around. 
    
    We can keep our children safe with out making them paranoid
    and afraid.
    
    Touching was to me a particularly sore subject when my 14 year old
    was little because so many people would pat his nappy hair. We
    taught him just to ask people please not to do that, and say he didn't
    like it!
    
   Right now we still have to deal with our twelve year old "special"
    son who is friendly with everyone. It is much harder to teach safety
    rules to a child whose ability to understand is diminished. He never
    goes anywhere without someone watching over him.

    Bonnie

    re .17
    
    thanks for clarifying...I am fully in support of  your position,
    as I understand it now, and will no longer worry about my safety 
    if I make contact with children in the checkout line or dentist's office!

    Kerry,
    
    It is no mystery why babies and small children love you.
    They can't resist the grin surrounded by that beard. You
    simply have a face that charms children.
    
    Bonnie
    

    There is absolutely NO way a parent can be TOO careful with their
    children. Yes, it is a sad commentary on our society but it is true.
    Allow me to relate a story that really happened which woke me up.
    
    There is a children's clothing store in Foxboro on Route 140 with
    great prices and huge crowds. Normally while shopping there I have
    concentrated on sizes, colors, etc while keeping my children in
    sight by calling their name every couple of minutes and then making
    eye contact. 
    
    Suddenly a woman started screaming a girl's name and began running
    around frantically. Her child was not around. She found the security
    officer and explained that her daughter was 3 and had been playing
    uder the coat rack and she (the mother) saw her just 1 minute prior
    to noticing she (the daughter) was missing. The security guard 
    locked the doo to the store and made an announcement about the child
    over the loudspeaker. After about a 1/2 hour, the guard was hauling
    off a guy and a scared looking kid went running and crying for it's
    mother.
    
    I say "IT" because what this guy had done was lure the girl out
    from under the coat rack, brought her into a changing room, put
    boys' clothes on her and....cut her hair really short!
    
    The point is that there are many, many well-meaning adults/parents
    out there who mean no harm in complementing other children. But
    the above episode illustrated for me quite clearly that for every
    thousand good people there is a quack who would stoop to any depths
    to abduct or harm a child.
    
    I will, therefore, harness my children when in stores, give dirty
    looks to anyone who approaches my children, and confront any physical
    attempt with whatever means I can muster. I agree that this may
    be overreacting but my children are too dear to me to risk any degree
    of trust anymore.
    
    Rich
    

    Parents DO have to be more careful of their children out in public
    than they did twenty years ago, and one reason why (in my opinion)
    is that twenty years ago, the huge crowded shopping malls did not
    exist and opporunities/occasions to bring small children into such
    public areas were not as available. 

    Sounds to me like parents need to be "fearful" of their kids in
    the same way that women are "fearful" of themselves.  It's very
    similar, right?
    
    	-Ellen

    There are three books that describe what are called "urban legends",
    two of the titles are "The Choking Doberman" and "The Mexican Pet".
    The books are a collection of stories that seem to be universally
    told - some of which can be traced back to the 12th century. One
    thing that they all have in common is that when they are researched
    they can never be actually proven to have happened. (The choking
    doberman for example involves a family who rushes their choking
    dog to the vet only to find human finger(s) in his throat - on
    returning home they find a burglar cowering in a closet missing
    finger(s).) I would be more comfortable with accepting .22's
    story if it were not an exact duplicate of one of those urban
    legends.

    Re: .22, .25
    
    Yes, I've heard that "urban legend" too - at least three times,
    each one about a different store.
    
    There is just too much hysteria around on the issue of protecting
    our children.  A major New England dairy, HP Hood, has recently
    announced that it will stop printing pictures of missing children
    on its milk cartons, because in the six years they've been doing
    it, not ONE child was found due to the pictures.  We're scaring
    our children and making parents just a bit too paranoid -
    fingerprinting our children?  Ridiculous!
    
    It's very easy to take sensible precautions and to teach our children
    to be "street smart" - at least the hysteria has taught us this
    much.  But too much fear is damaging - to the child and the parents.
    
    					Steve

    I think some parents are scaring their children more than necessary.
    They use the "you're going to get stolen" line as a way of controlling
    their kids. I've seen the same scene play itself out over and over
    -- the parent is making unreasonable demands on the child, the child
    reacts, the parent threatens the child with disappearance, and the
    child breaks down in tears. It seems horribly cruel and needless.
    There must be a balance between alerting children to potential dangers
    and making the child too scared to function or think. (That doesn't
    mean that the balance is easy to find!)

    We may need to be more protective of our offspring today than 20 years
    ago, but are we actually being so?
    
    I personally doubt it: when I was a child I was restrained by a set
    of reins until I was old enough not to stray - nobody would have gotten
    me to stray from my Mother or Nanny by any sort of words because I was
    held firmly by leather cords.
    
    When I was older I was expected to hold hands and never let go until
    I went off to boarding school and was expected to show adult behaviour
    patterns.
    
    And yet today I see toddlers crawling rampantly around stores and 5-6
    year olds running freely about.
    
    In fact the only time they seem to be under even modest control is when
    they are in a cart at a supermarket.
    
    Is it not possible that we are replacing physical control, discipline
    and respect for parents that protected me and my peers, with a state
    of fear instilled in the child?
    
    /. Ian .\

    Now that I've entered .2, I thought of even more to
    say.  
    
    First, one of the things we taught our son at a very
    early age was, if he is EVER seperated from me in a
    store, he is to go directly to the nearest counter or
    guard, and have me paged.  Several months ago we lost
    contact with each other very briefly, in a shopping 
    mall.  I found him at a nearby counter asking the se-
    curity guard to please call his mother.  He received
    a big hug and lot of praise from his mom!  (Unfortunately,
    he also used this tactic to gain my attention one day
    when he felt "ignored"...I went down the next aisle and
    the next thing I knew, I was being paged.  Apparently he
    felt that I should be listening to him, and "conveniently"
    "lost" me...oh well, that time he got a lecture about the
    little boy who cried wolf.)
    
    Jamey is a VERY sociable kid.  I believe in balance; at a
    very early age (2 or less) he was given a rather sizeable
    allowance each week.  He is allowed to spend it on anything
    he wants.  So, I no longer have to listen to him whine about
    wanting this or that or the other thing. It's simple.  It's
    his money.  When it's all gone, that's it for the week.  And,
    he handles his own money, so he has learned to deal with sales
    clerks, to count his own change, etc.  He KNOWS that not every
    stranger is a hazard to hs health.  He has developed poise and
    social skills in the process.  It's all a matter of good judge-
    ment.
    
    

re: .15 (Holly)
    
    I usually assume that parents will not mind friendly and respectful
    interactions with their children in a waiting-type situation IF
    the parents are right near by and able to monitor the situation.
    As a former teacher, it comes totally naturally for me.
    
    But maybe for my own safety, I should adopt a stony stare.  How
    sad...
          
I had very similar thoughts this morning when I read some replies to the
note about men jogging/walking past women who are alone. I recognize the
problem, and believe that it's real (hell, *I* worry about meeting up with
strange men, and I'm one myself!).  It's just another sorry commentary
on life in the latter half of the 20th century.

					-- hal

    
    
    
    
    
    Much of the research on the sexual and physical abuse of children
    tends to indicate that, statistically, children have more reason
    to fear family members than strangers.