Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I think I understand what you mean.....not the fear when you know
    there is danger but the little voice that tells you to be "extra"
    careful.........I'm always looking over my shoulder but I get nervous
    when I go places alone like shopping and a guy tries to make
    conversation with you.....that drives me nuts....I try to make sure
    I loose him in a crowd go to my car jump in and lock the door.....I'm
    sure some of them are perfectly harmless but I don't trust men....
    
    When I was five a woman neighbor brought me and her kids up to our
    neighborhood store which was only a quarter mile from our house
    and some guy jumped out of the woods with a knife and grab her and
    put the knife to her throat.....I ran like hell home!  I hid under
    my bed for the longest time and locked all the doors.....my mother
    told me the neighbor decked the guy and held him for police.  My
    neighbor was called "Lucky" and I believe it suited her......when
    I was seventeen a next door neighbor's brother attacked my father
    and held him on the ground beating him up... (we lived in a small
    NH town) my mother called the police but I remember going out with
    my hairbrush and picking up this 300 pounder and throwing him on
    the ground.....(don't ask me how) and when I started work at eighteen
    I was hounded by married men to date them.....(sure....) so you
    can see why I don't trust men....that's just part of it.  Yes, I
    am fearful of men......I do trust some men.  I trust my husband
    and he doesn't allow me to go alone anywhere if it's dark out. 
    He's just that way....he doesn't trust other men.
    
    bs
    

Yet again someone times a topic perfectly. There's a guy at work who's
just built a new house. He's offered a couple times to bring me along
when he stops by during lunch, to show me all the neat stuff he's doing.
I'm interested in house stuff, since I'm a new owner and don't have
alot of house savvy (sheltered childhood). But I probably won't ever
say yes, because there are just too many danger signals. 

NOW PLEASE, any one or few of these do not automatically brand an
individual in my eyes as a raving rapist (why do I feel I need to insert
this disclaimer?). Probably the biggest signal is the "vibes". But some of
the more easily identifiable ones are: 1) he's friendly. That's why we get
along so well, but the quality of his friendliness has labeled him in the
eyes of another noter here as "too friendly". 2) He's older. Which means
the feminist movement and all that it has to say may be more foreign to
him. 3) He has a calendar of semi-clad hawaiin women in his cubicle
(remember the disclaimer; they all add up). 4) He jokes with me about being
feminist, about not growing and painting my nails, etc. Which has led to
some good conversations, but still makes me think.

Sometimes, I think this fear is ludicrous. But, the impact of the
trade-off, and my own trusting nature, lead me to be wary when I can
remember to be wary.
	Mez 

    Either Ann Landers or her sister said that they would rather fear
    all men and be safe, than trust all men and take the, (not-so-small),
    risk.  I agree.  Lest you men misinterpret the remark, replace the
    word fear with the phrase "be wary of".

    Here's a very basic situation that men take for granted that just
    occurred to me: going to the bathroom.  From my earliest years,
    I've learned to go to public restrooms "in a pack."  (I've often
    heard male comedians joke about this.)  Especially on picnics in
    public parks, and the like, women always seem to summon at least
    one other woman to go along.
    
    I can't count the times that I've been out with a group of people
    where one person'll mention she has to go to the bathroom and there's
    a chorus of me-toos and the whole female party will take that as
    an opportunity to go.  I notice this with older women especially.
    I can't recall either of my grandmothers ever going to a public
    restroom alone on any of our frequent family outings.  And my mother
    always asks if anyone else has to go (if she does).
    
    Of course there are exceptions, for example, when there's alot of
    traffic in the restrooms and there are lots of people all around.
    
    Have you noticed how often public ladies' rooms are locked, including
    in office buildings?  (It can be a pain looking all over creation
    for a key, too.)  This reinforces restroom fears.  It seems to me
    that we needed keys to get into the DEC ladies' room when I worked
    in downtown Syracuse 9 years ago.
    
    I can think of 3 public restrooms in places I've frequented that
    are located down flights of stairs, around a corner, and down some
    hallway, that I just avoid altogether.
    
    Probably related to this is the tremendous concern I've noticed
    among men when it comes to a male child going to a public restroom
    alone.  When I've  been out with friends and family, it seems that
    care is always taken to escort male children under the age of about
    8 or 9 to the restroom, almost as if they're entering a jungle, or
    either some ominous black hole.                                
    
    
    (I probably shouldn't have so maligned the jungle.)

    There are so many little things we do, that are habit now, so we
    don't even think about them.  Yesterday I was getting off the freeway
    and had to stop at a light before I could turn left.  There was
    a man leaning against a pole in the middle of a small field on my
    left.  He was alone in a place most people don't walk, and he was
    only a few feet from my car.  I appeared to stare straight ahead,
    but I was watching his every move, and would have been ready to
    lock my doors in an instant.  The only reason I did not lock them
    right then was that I was afraid that would have motivated him into
    an attack, and windows can be broken.  I would not have thought
    of it again if this topic had not come up.
    
    Likewise, I check at night to make sure no one is in the back seat
    of my car when I am getting in it to go home, and when I walk the
    parking lot I am ever mindful of who is also in the lot.
    
                     Carol

re .4 (and bathrooms)

A friend of mine was just telling me about a trip she took into Boston with
several young children.  There were two young boys in the group (her son, age
around 8-9, and a slightly younger neighbor), and although the boys wanted to
go together to the men's room, she wouldn't hear of it.  I can't blame her.
I wonder when they'll be considered too old to be "allowed" in the ladies' room
with their mothers.

Jill

    I (as a male) would also like to hear from those women who do NOT
    generally suffer from this fear.  Otherwise reading this note is
    apt to convey the feeling that ALL women suffer from this fear.
    Based on conversations with many women (as a result of this note)
    I have found that quite a few don't (at least not to the degree
    of excluding common sense) suffer from these fears.  Even I would
    consider locking my car door in the situation described previously.
    Another question I have (possibly another note?) is if women feel
    that this fear attracts the attention of those people who they are
    afraid of?  People are good at hiding their emotions but fear is
    a very difficult one to hide!  
    
    								...Martin

Re: .4 and bathrooms

I have a friend who was badly beaten in a bar bathroom while my roommate was 
waiting just outside.  Apparently no one noticed this guy going into the 
women's  restroom  with  a  pool cue. In most situations, I am less cautious
than I probably should be, but ... I pay more attention now.

I still  have  trouble believing that no one noticed him going in, including
her friend.

    ...and this is an important point, Martin.
    
    Women do not "suffer" from this fear.  Women can "suffer" if they DON'T
    have this fear.  Please keep in mind my definition of the word fear.
    
    You are confusing your reactions to fear here and assuming that
    women must then live in self-imposed prisons and are ever-suspicious 
    and afraid and that's not true.  We are fearful - not frightened.  
    
    The difference is between a chronic, underlying thought, (the fear
    I'm talking about), and an acute reactionary state, (the fear I
    think you are talking about).  We are not always on suddent alert - we 
    are not always "frightened".  We ARE always AWARE of the potential for
    danger and are always ALERT because of it.  Our "resting state",
    if you will, is most always less relaxed than man's "resting state".
    
    The acute reactionary state of being frightened is of course hard
    to hide, but we're not talking about this state so there is no reason
    to assume that women's "fear" attracts people's unwanted attention.
    I'm not discussing neuroses or phobias, (what's the fear-of-people
    phobia?  I'll have to check my psych book tonite!),  but rather
    the necessary everyday wariness that limits women's everyday freedom.  
    Like the woman watching the man leaning against the pole.  She hid her 
    wariness, (her fear), well by not staring at him, knowing that "dis-
    playing fear" could indeed provoke.  No, the average woman is wary AND 
    is cool about it.
    
    I think it's necessary to clarify this.

    re -.1
    
    Hear, hear!  
    
    Since my, er, "incident," yes I now feel that overwhelming fear
    in a few situations (I don't think that's a suprising reaction...).
    
    Before, I simply ran on "autopilot awareness"; without noticing
    it, I kept track of situations and would go into defense/fear mode
    only if triggered.  That sort of autopilot usually works quite well.
    
    Well, _usually_...
    
    Lee

    I think most women learn at a very early age to run on "auto pilot".
    Every time we meet a new man he gets run through a check list
    and classified as ok, not ok or questionable. Most all men get
    classified as ok, but we still have to make that decision at
    some level of our consciousness.
    Bonnie

    1.  Someone talking about how great sex is.  (Friend or not.  Scares
    me silly.  A funny/dirty joke can be funny but scary, too.  Dunno
    why.)
    
    2.  Looking at my body instead of my face/eyes when we are talking.
    
    3.  Reminding me (in subtle ways, and no, I can't define them) that
    I am a woman and you are a man.  We both know that, and I still
    prefer to get to know others on a person-person basis before delving
    into woman-man.
                                                                            
                        -<Scary Situations>-
    
    I took a cab from Logan to Cambridge and my cabbie was a really
    nice student.  We were talking a little (small talk), and geez,
    he was a nice guy.  When helping me out of the car, he said something
    like, "I know you don't know me or anything, but would you like
    to go out and hear some jazz together sometime?"
    
    That hurt.  If he had been a woman, I would have leapt at the
    opportunity.  But him being a man...he seemed so neat (musician),
    but you just _can't_ do that!!  If it had been the country (or a
    smaller town), I still would have had to say no.  One potential
    neat acquaintance lost.
    
    When I had to travel through NYC carrying a lot of bags in rush
    hour, they just got too heavy, and then I got lost.  I stopped and
    asked a woman how to find a certain place.  She told me and walked
    on.  A man in a business suit walked by and offered to help me with
    my bags.  I said no (WHO is going to run off and steal a bag I can
    barely carry?!).  Then a wonderful (the goddess...) woman dressed
    similarly stopped, and I let her carry one for me, thanking her
    profusely all the way.  When the man offered, I practically cried
    because I wanted so much to get some help, but I was afraid.  Sad,
    isn't it?
    
    Neither of these men did anything in my "fear" list.  They were
    being nice, kind, good people.  And if they had turned around and
    done something bad to me, the "defense attorneys" (police, etc)
    would make it out to be my own fault.
            
    Lee

	The other day I got an anonymous valentines day card at work.
	This really didn't bother me very much, but I knew it wasn't from
	my husband, and it wasn't from a male friend that I'm close to.
	So who was it from?  What was the motivation behind it?  It was
	probably just a friend who is trying to cheer my day, but what
	if they want more than friendship from a relationship?  Why should
	I have to worry about it?

	Then when I got home, there was an obscene phone call on my
	answering machine.  I was home alone and listening to a message:
	"Karen, what color panties do you have on today?  I want to see
	you bend over and watch your little ass."  Look, two weeks ago,
	and I can quote it verbatim.  I was scared.  This person knew
	my name, they knew my phone number, they probably know my address
	(if not, it's in the phone book).  Later I reasoned that it was
	probably just a random obscene phone call, and they only knew
	my name becuase the message on the machine said "you have reached
	Tom and Karen Sullivan's house...".  And it was probably totally
	unrelated to my anonymous valentine's day card.

	Well, when I told Tom about it, his first reaction was amusement.
	He, of course, started with the random phone call theory, where I
	started with the personal attack theory.  I made Tom change the
	message on the machine so that our names were not mentioned.  But
	I had to explain my fear to him, and a little part of me is still
	afraid, becuase I don't really *know* who it was and if he knows
	me.  And I'm mad, becuase some men think it's funny to call women
	up like that.  And men probably don't have to worry about receiving 
	calls like that.

	..Karen

    
    I guess I have trouble following some of this because I'm a slightly
    larger than average male who's lived in cities all his life.  I
    would have called a lot of these feelings survival instincts.  Then
    again, as usual, what the hell do I know.
    
    These days I live in Worcester, and while it's not New York or Boston,
    you still have to keep your wits about you.  I can remember when
    I first started school, all the resident advisors giving us a speech
    akin to "don't let the female students walk home alone in the dark."
    All the city guys got it right away.  Some of the others had to
    have it explained.
    
    My parents were somewhat surprised to hear about the assortment
    of people that sometimes wind up sleeping on the flat surfaces in
    my apartment.  The explanation was simple.  They felt safe.  If
    someone's willing to fall asleep under your roof, they trust you.
    I know the whole world isn't going to change because of my example,
    but I'm doing what I can, you know?
    
    DFW

    re .13:
    
    It'd be interesting to know how many women out there have not received
    telephone calls like this at some time in your life.  I'll bet it's
    real close to zero percent.
    
    	-Ellen

    RE: .4  paPck
    
    It never occurred to me that there is a commonsense reason for women
    to go to public restrooms in pairs.  Now that you've mentioned it,
    it's obvious.
    
    Shortly after we became engaged, my wife was attacked in a rest
    room in a church.  We were at a dance upstairs and she went down
    to the street level to the ladies room, the entrance to which was 
    visible through a door to the outside. A man in a ski mask followed
    her in and grabbed her from behind in the stall, telling her he
    had a knife and she better do what he said.  She not only screamed
    bloody murder, but she hauled off and belted him one. He ran out
    the door. Three divinity students meeting in an adjacent room heard
    the commotion and chased the guy out to the street.  When I found
    out what had happened I ran across the street to the police station
    to tell them.  They said she had to come in and fill out a report
    before they could do anything.  I told them the guy was running
    down the street with three men in hot pursuit.  They said she had
    to come in and fill out a report before they could do anything!
    
    In the following months the news reported on several women in the
    area being raped by a man in a ski mask.  He was never caught.
    

    
    	I once had a very disgusting pictures torn from a magazine
    	sent to me.  They showed a woman with two men performing different
        'activities'.	The person that sent this to me had wrote my
    	name next to the woman and wrote some real disgusting remarks
    	all around the picture.  This really scared me.  I had just
    	moved into a new town and not many people knew or could find
    	out my address.  I was very shook up by this.
    
    	This, like obscene phone calls, invoke a sort of temporary fear
    	in me that someone is watching me.  After receiving the pictures
    	and phone calls (at different times) I tend to be a bit more
    	cautious, or on guard if you will.
    
    	But I find there is another type of fear, and I don't know if
    	I should include this in this topic or not but here goes.
    	
    	Once a man broke into my house and I was home alone (I don't
    	really know why I am putting this in, but I am wondering if
    	anyone else has ever reacted in this way).  I was in bed and
    	I was positive that someone had broken in.  I completely froze.
    	I opened my mouth and I could actually hear and feel my heart
    	beating.  I just couldn't move.  I was almost wishing that I
    	was dreaming and that this wasn't real.  He was right at the
    	foot of my bed and I was so afraid to move.  I thought that
    	he would think I was asleep.  Lucky for me he did think that
    	(I assume).  Then I heard my dog walking upstairs (my room
    	was in the basement where the man broke in).  I guess the 
    	man heard him as well and he left.  
    
    	Has anyone else ever reacted like this?  I feel kind of stupid
    	now that I completely froze.  I was lucky that I did though,
    	but it was so strange.  Thank God for Marco (my dog).
    
    							Carol.

Just read in U.S. News and World Report --

1/3 of  the  4500  women  who  are  murdered  each  year are killed by their
husbands  or  boyfriends. (They were also mentioning that police are getting
more  involved in domestic violence because violators who are jailed are 50%
less likely to repeat the performance within the next six months. US N.&W.R.
said they hope this will save some lives.)

[This may  have  been  mentioned  before, but it serves as a reminder why we
have to be careful, maybe even of people who we normally view as "safe". How
many  of  the  violators  were  first  time  offenders?  Hopefully  a  small
percentage ... I do like trust ... I also like life.]

    Re .4, the restrooms.  One public restroom that I hate to have to
    go to alone is the one in the basement level of the Worcester Galleria
    shopping mall.  (It's also one of the filthiest I've seen in years.)
     The other night I was shopping there alone and had to go to the
    restroom.  The basement level of the mall was deserted except for
    a group of 4 or 5 tough looking teenage girls hanging around.  I
    was almost afraid to go in with *them* there.  I thought if they
    wanted to, they could overpower me, take my purse, beat me up and
    nobody would even know.  I walked past them, with my nose in the
    air, and went into the restroom and they didn't bother me.  But,
    if they had been guys I wouldn't have risked it.
    
    Re .14, speaking of Worcester, it is a small city, but nobody could
    pay me to walk in the South Main area alone day or night.  (More
    than one woman has been raped and/or murdered there in recent years.)
    
    Re .7, my initial reaction to reading this topic and the one on
    date rape was that, I've never felt this afraid.  But, then I realized
    that I have always felt this afraid, but that I just take it so
    for granted that I feel this way, that I just accept it as normal
    until it's brought out for discussion.
    
    Re Mez, if you have any doubts about this guy asking you to go to
    his new house at lunch (and you aren't "interested" in him) either
    bring it up for discussion or don't go.  I mentioned something similar
    happening to me in the date rape note.  The guy just took it for
    granted that that's why I went to his new townhouse with him at
    lunch even though it have never been mentioned.  He asked me if
    I wanted to see the new place and I said yes - pretty straightforward
    I thought.  He didn't rape me or get rough with me when he found
    out I wasn't interested.  He seemed to accept my refusal in good
    humor, but every once in awhile he would tease me and call me a
    "Little prick tease!"  Cute, huh?
    
    Lorna
    

    re: -1
    
    >my initial reaction to reading this topic and the one on date rape
    was that I've never felt this afraid.  But then I relized that I
    have always felt this afraid, but that I just take it so for granted
    that I feel this way, that I just accept it as normal until it's
    brought out for discussion.
    
    That is perfect.  That is what men don't understand about women's
    fear.  We are not trembling wimps.  Quite the contrary.  We are
    strong enough to have built wariness into our characters so that
    it becomes part of us and we don't really have to think constantly
    about our safety and the potential for danger and we can continue
    to lead a relatively normal life.  Because we've ingrained fear
    so much into what is "normal life" for us, men don't see the fear
    and indeed think of fear as it occurs in men's lives which is mostly
    ONLY the acute reaction - the beating heart, the sweating, the
    sharpening of the senses and it's not.  Men think of fear as pretty
    much debilitating to normal life, (and acute, constant fear certainly 
    IS), and probably think, "if women are so afraid how do they ever
    leave their homes?!"  How indeed.  With much care.  With much caution.
    Sometimes with much trepidation.  Sometimes with no fear at all
    but with refreshing bravado!  But that's usually just a mood!
    
    That's why I like the alone-in-the-NY-subway-at-3:am analogy.  There
    is no trembling or sweating going on but the potential for danger
    causes an underlying FEAR and behavior will be modified because
    of this potential.
    
    Women's lives contain that ame potential always, and as a result we
    feel that same underlying fear always and we modify our behavior because
    of that potential and one step further, we just plain have to get
    used to it. 

    Personalized obscene calls are the worst.  When I was in high school
    a guy called at 7:45 am and asked my mother if he could talk to
    me (by name).  He then went into an obscene monolog about my clothes
    and what not, so I hung up and then dialed the police.  The dispatcher
    put me on the line with the only policewoman our small town had.
    She asked me if I knew who it was, I told her the voice was familiar,
    definitely one of the guys I went to school with, but I couldn't
    place it.  Apparently quite a few girls from my high school were
    getting these calls.  I don't know if the guy was ever caught.
    
    I know that all of my close girl friends over the years have gotten
    obscene phone calls.  One of my friends got repeated calls from one guy
    who had seen her picture in the paper.  One day she got a call from him, 
    then blew her trombone into the phone as loud as she could, which was
    quite loud enough.  I don't think he ever called after that.
    
    The random obscene phone calls I forget about fairly quickly, the
    personalized ones I spend the next couple of weeks listening to
    every guy I meet trying to determine if he owns -that- voice.
    
     			Barbara b.

    Re: .13
    
        There was a very interesting television special the other evening.
    The gist of the documentary was that interestingly enough a larger
    percentage of "hang-ups", "prank calls" etc... originate from females
    rather than males!  Interesting, huh?  
    
    								...Martin

    re. phone calls
    
    I got an obscene call from an in plant number one day while just
    sitting at my desk. He called me by name, and like .21 I listened
    to the voices of the men I knew for a while afterwards to see if
    I recognized the voice. Plant security told me that a lot of women
    had been complaining about these calls and they were pretty sure
    of who he was. That was quite a while ago.
    
    As to prank calls - the most common originators to my knowlege are
    pre adolescant and early adolescant girls. Not to excuse their behavior
    but I really don't think they can be compaired to obscene callers. 

    First off let me state that Iam a man, and this is a reflection
    of my thoughts on the subject and the responses to it.   
    Ive gone through all of the replys to this subject and detected
    two camps of people. The first are the ones that live in a constant
    state of awareness and the others in a constant state of fear. 
    
    What I haven't seen (surprisingly enough) is what you ladies are
    doing about it. Have any of you gone to self defense courses or
    learned to use a defensive device such as a kublaton ?? Have any
    gotten to the point where you carry a gun with you ??
    
    Reading through this brought back some things that I wasent aware
    of until I was told by some female co-workers a few years ago.
    In fact I put a note in MENNOTES about it under the title of
    "Bad habits from bad times". What it refers to is my unconscience
    habit of looking a person up and down when I see them or am talking
    to them. It came from the background of things I was involved in
    for a number of years. What I now realize is that that has a tendency
    to make people (especially women) very uneasy and uncomfortable in
    my presence. I have since tried to curtail it as much as possible
    in the presence of women.
    
    Having an heightened awareness about you is a good thing. It equates
    to what is commonly called street smarts by a lot of people. What
    I find disturbing is when it begins to take over ones entire life
    to the point of not trusting anyone thats a male. If you have reached
    that point(and I sense that some of the responders have) I would
    strongly urge you to seek some self defense help to regain some
    confidence and overcome the fear. 
    
    The reason I say this is that, having dealt with some of societys
    more unsavory people they know who is easy pickings vs the ones
    that arnt. In essence they sense the fear in people vs the ones
    that arnt intimidated and will go after the ones in fear every time
    they seek a victim. If any of you out there desire to go this route
    then either find a source that your aware of or contact me for some
    references.
    
                                  Bob B

    RE: 24
    
    I think education is more important than self-defense....let's educate
    our justice system!  If more of these guys were put away we wouldn't
    live in fear.  If more justice systems BELIEVE us.....we wouldn't
    feel this way.  carrying a gun is no answer......how many people
    shoot someone is self defense and still GO ON TRIAL?????  Also you
    have to live with your actions as well.
    
    I don't live in fear but I AM careful......I think that is what
    everyone is trying to say.  
    
    

    	Thank you, all the women who have talked openly and honestly
    in this note and the Rape Date note.  You have awakened me to a
    reality of which I was not at all aware.  About four years ago a
    female friend from work and I went to a play.  Walking back to our
    cars, I noticed she was 'very uptight' and have always wondered
    why.  Yes, I asked her.  She did not offer an explanation.  And
    now I know!
    
    Douglas

re .16 and the police's attitude of "she'll have to come in and write a report":

And I bet if a cruiser spotted a man running down the street shooting a gun with
one hand and carrying the stolen goods in the other, they'd say "well, let's
call the station and see if anyone reported a robbery".

re obscene phone calls:

I've had my share, but don't recall any being personalized.  I've had some
repeats, too, and found that if you don't have a trombone handy, or a male voice
handy (to say "hello" into the phone) lay the receiver down for a little while
and it will bore the hell out of the caller.  I've heard that hanging up
doesn't do as good a job.

re Lorna and the Worcester Galleria restrooms:

I had the rare opportunity of forcing some "tough kids" to leave because *they*
were uncomfortable.  You know how small that room is?  You know how your innards
sometimes act up on you when you're really nervous? :-)
  
Reading this note has given me a lot to think about (ditto for the date rape
note).  I've been incredibly naive, and incredibly lucky.  I've also been
able to understand some of my feelings and reactions better.  Thank you all.

Jill

   re: .24	    

   I agree. I don't understand why more woman don't run not walk to
   their nearest martial arts school.

   I have been taking karate lessons for about 4 months now and I 
   have come away with two realizations. One, I understand just
   how much more powerful than I a 180 pound six foot man is. (I
   practice with them three times week :-)), and two that despite
   this difference in size a black belt is well able to disable 
   any untrained attacker. A trained attacker, well, given the element
   of surprise (How many men would expect there chosen victim to attack
   them) I still believe the woman could disable her attacker.

   re: .25	    

    >No flames intended here ...  Just wondering if self-defense
    >training doesn't just intensify the existing fearful feelings!

    No, quite the contrary. I now know that I have some trained reactions
    to an attack situation (not many yet, but some). It's like knowing what 
    to do if my car skids on ice, or a tire blows at high speed. Instead of 
    panic I think, pump the brakes, steer into the skid, ect. Instead of panic
    respond with a block, and a strike.


    By the time I become a black belt (assuming I make it that far). I 
    expect to be able to give any b*st*rd that attacks me the response 
    such an attack deserves.

    Lisa Silwa the head (I believe) of the guardian angels has
    a black belt in karate. I remember reading an article about
    how she was cornered and almost raped by five guys inspite
    of this. So self defense courses are not a panacea. Also 
    I'm not sure if they would do much for the feelings of
    hesitancy most women have about meeting new men - until they
    are able to determine if the guy is a potential friend/harmless
    aquantance, or a jerk. Remember what we are talking about here
    is a much more subtile thing than being afraid of a physical
    danger. Dealing with the self defense side of it is only one
    facet.

    RE . 25 , .26
    
    The point Ive tried to make here is not to become the aggressor,
    no one in their right mind goes out looking for trouble.
    But to replace the fear with a positive attitude. One that goes
    along the line of when in a possible bad situation of " Iam not
    going to contend with any crap from you". Multiple studies have
    shown that when a person is out to mug another that they will
    avoid those with a positive attitude and prey on someone they can
    place into fear because they are much more easier to deal with.
    Being ignorant and naive will only get you into trouble also.
    I am only stateing my personal opinion baised on experence that
    fear replaced with a positive attitude is one of your best defensives
    against becoming a victim.
    
    True, the justice system has its fair share of problems, but in
    too many cases the attack,mugging or rape goes unreported because
    of multiple reasons. I realize its not easy for any woman to go
    through all the crap associated to reporting and prosecuting her 
    attacker, But sadly there is no other way to get these creeps off
    the streets. Before you flame me about how could I know, FYI I 
    was a investigator for a rape case that resulted in the successful
    apprehension and prosecution of the men who did it. I was the person
    on duty when the victim came in to report it, so I have seen and
    know about what a woman goes through to press charges. 
    
                           Bob B

    Re: 31
    
    Bob,
    
    You made your point and I'm not flaming.  I realize what your saying
    is true if we could all take self defense or keep something in our
    purses like mace etc to defend ourselves it would help.....it's
    just too bad that we have to go to that extreme to feel somewhat
    safe.  
    
    Bonnie was right when she said Lisa (Guardian Angels) was
    attacked by five guys or so and she almost didn't make it.  She
    is an expert karate instructor or something and she ended up in
    the hospital.   So even if you know some defense your not that safe!
    I liked to take a self-defense course myself but I don't have the
    money to do so right now.......I just try to be extra careful mostly
    at night.  I agree on the positive attitude too.  Most of them like
    to prey on people who don't look confident.....men or women.
    
    Bobbi
    
    
      

    I had a bad experience with an unmarked taxi which has woken me
    up with nightmares for years.
    
    In D.C.,during some kind of transportation strike, it was common
    to see unmarked station wagons being used as taxis one summer. 
    I never would have gotten in one alone, but I got in one at the
    bus station with six other people.  Things went fine, but I was
    the last to be dropped off, and then the hassle started.  Sexual
    remarks, racial remarks, hand on my knee...it was awful, and I was
    blaming and cursing myself for having gotten into the situation.
    I even considered jumping out of the car, but would have lost 3
    years of research notes (minor, maybe) and probably have killed
    myself (not so minor).  If that happened again today, I would make
    sure I got out wherever the last person did -- the wisdom of hindsight.
    
    I used to live at a conference center with 5 other people.  There
    were no workshops during the week, and it was rural and isolated.
    I took a nap one afternoon and woke up in the late afternoon to
    see a huge, strange man at the foot of my bed.  I sat up abruptly
    and said "What do you want?"  He mumbled something about getting
    his car fixed, and I told him he was in the wrong place.  My heart
    was pounding, and I could barely talk, but I knew it was important
    to show no fear.  Worst of all for me, someone had borrowed my car
    and I was alone up on the hill with no one else home.  I also had
    a $2000 bank deposit downstairs which I was worried about!
    
    I told him we had to go downstairs and he followed me closely. 
    I was still terrified, but tried to keep him talking.  I thought
    he was crazy.  I finally told him I had to make a phone call.  I
    called the person who had my car and said "I need my car".  He said
    "What's wrong, are you ok?" and I kept repeating "I need my car".
    My friend said "Are you ok" and I just kept repeating myself.  Luckily,
    he came right up, and the other guy didn't stop me from calling.
    
    But after I got off the phone the man in the house said "Did you
    call R____?".  I had never mentioned my friend's name, but that
    was who I called.  This man stepped toward me, and said in a very
    menacing tone of voice "You shouldn't have done that."  
    
    I felt like I was in a grade B movie at that point.
    
    I was terrified, and thought I had some kind of crazy psychic on
    my hands or something.  R_____ came right up, and I was never so
    grateful to see a man in my life!  I acted like a classic terrified
    female, though, and burst into tears as soon as relief arrived.
    
    Turns out my friend had just thrown this guy out of his house!

	Let me state up front that I don't ANYthing is a sure protection
	from harm, however, to say that just because ONE woman couldn't
	handle FIVE attackers, self defense is not worth considering seems
	short sighted to me.
	
	Granted that karate will not solve all your problems (what will)
	it goes along way towards fostering those positive (I am not a
	victim) feeling that everyone (myself included) agrees are so 
	important. I for one feel much less like potential victim now
	than I did before I started karate. I was in fact surprised by
	just how much of a difference it has made in me. I guess the thing
	was, I just couldn't believe that a woman could defeat a man in a 
	fight no matter what her training, well let me tell you now I DO 
	believe.
	    
    	Karate does require quite a commitment in time and bruises, so I
	see where it isn't for everyone. I was just wondering why it
	hadn't come up as an (good in my opinion) option. To this
	point (I think) it has only been suggested by men in this file.

	-vicki

	P.S. A parting thought, the woman who was beaten, she was in the 
	business of protecting other people. She presents the image of a very 
	strong woman, definitely not a victim. And the fact that she was beaten
	once does nothing to diminish my respect for her. If you concentrate on
	the defeats, you miss all of the victories she gave womankind by been 
	one of the protectors, instead of one of the victims. I believe that 
	martial arts training can give all of us some of the "eye of the tiger"
	that a woman such as she possesses and make all of us a little less 
	apt to be victims.


	      

    Fear is a basic survival trait.
    
    
    
    In men as well as women.
    
    /. Ian .\

    I agree with .26, we should educate the system that attacking women
    isn't a minor thing.  I don't like the attitude : if you're a weak
    looking woman you should go out and train in a martial art for a
    couple of years so you can go look tough.   I don't know if it is
    natural for women in general to be "docile" or non-aggressive, but
    I think it's wrong to blame anyone who is, man or woman, for not
    being able to defend themselves.  It is the attacker who should
    be blamed!
    
    I started self-defense training in college because I found myself
    wandering across campus alone at all hours of the night after 
    debugging sessions.  Now, a few years and many bruises later I have
    a brown belt in Aikido.  I love the art and I do have more
    confidence because of it, not that I was lacking any to begin with.
    Most of my original confidence came from always being able to
    man-handle my two younger brothers, usually with nasty little tricks
    like thumb screws and nerve pinches.
    
    *BUT* I don't believe for one minute that I would come away unscathed
    from a determined attacker.  Go read the martial arts notesfile,
    MSEE::ARTS if you want real-life examples about black belts getting
    beaten up by boxers who don't attack like their sparring partners.
    You're living in a fantasy land if you think that a black belt means
    you can't get raped or that you have little to fear.
    
    Yes, in this imperfect world it is a good idea to know a few defense
    tricks and how to walk with an attitude.  I'm pretty good at both,
    but I still experience fear when I see a car warming up on the other
    side of a dark parking lot, or hear footsteps behind me.  Self-defense
    training doesn't make the little fears go away.
    
    			Barbara b.

    re self defense courses.
    
    Before an injury stopped me competing effectively I taught a number
    of self defense courses including a specialised anti-rape course organised
    by the local YWCA...
    
    
    The best defence is usually stated to be a 10 second 100 metres dash.
    The second best defence is developing the awareness to avoid the situation
    in the first place.
    
    Many sports, often of Eastern origin (Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon
    Do etc) are popular. You should be aware however that these are SPORTS,
    with severe rules bringing disqualification for dirty moves that violate
    the rules. Furthermore many of the more serious moves are "pulled" to
    avoid injuring or killing the oponent. It is true that these sports
    generate a feeling of self confidence, but it may be a very dangerous
    self confidence indeed.
    
    There is a huge difference between a fight with rules and pulled blows
    in a well lit dojo, and a fight against multiple, probably armed, possible
    high on dope, attackers in an unlit alley. They don't fight by the rules,
    but in the emergency, when the adrenalin hits and you go on auto-pilot,
    you may! This has led to more than one black belt being seriously injured.
    
    Also, as a demo I used to ask a student to imagine that I was attacking
    them from across the width of the dojo mat: as soon as they went into
    a defensive stance I would draw my pistol from hip holster and fire
    two (blank) shots. In all the times I used this test NO STUDENT ever
    reached me with a defensive blow before the second shot was fired.
    
    However I did a similar demo against a fello instructor once, his
    qualifications being similar to mine. He didn't know what I planned
    (he did know I had the gun, just as my rape-avoidance students did).
    He hit me with a drop kick that knocked me out before I cleared leather,
    so it can be done.
    
    However my qualifications are not in the SPORT styles, but rather in
    Tae Kwon Jitsu (the military form of Tae Kwon Do - I'm 5th Dan) and 
    Ninjitsu (3rd Dan), as well as the normal miltiary unarmed combat styles.
    In these styles we use body armour and deliver blows at full force.
    
    It is usually taught that to be able to disable or incapacitate an attacker
    you must strike with a single blow, or combination, with sufficient
    force and intent to kill.
    
    However not to be totally negative about sport styles: many years ago
    (I was at university) I had been attending a regular practice session
    and we were all leaving. The parking lot of the gym was deserted and
    as luck would have it the (female, 120lb, 5'2" Karate 7th Dan) instructor 
    left a few seconds ahead of us. She encountered 7 Hell's Angel types
    in the parking lot who thought they would have fun. By the time we got
    outside to see what the commotion was she was finishing off the seventh
    one. Four were hospitalised, one of them was still there 8 months later
    (he'd made the mistake of producing a knife - she'd used the doctrine
    of trying to kill him, but failed). -- When the case came to court the
    defence lawyer tried to claim that she'd attacked them (the jury thought
    that was funny). The one who spent 8 months in hospital sued her --
    the jury thought that was funny too - they awarded costs of several
    thousand pounds against him! However she did get into a little trouble
    for not formally warning them that she was skilled at a martial art
    (English law is a bit odd here - only the fact that they outnumbered
    her so heavily got the charge against her dropped. Had it been one on
    one she might have been charged as well, even though she was defending
    herself, because the use of this sort of skill without a formal warning
    is not considered "reasonable force" to use in self defence).
    
    /. Ian .\

    re .34
    Neither of the notes mentioning Lisa Silwa said that "self defense
    is not worth considering". Rather the point is that no matter how
    effective, it doesn't address the whole problem.
    
    In re this whole fear/tension/awarness/whatever....
    
    The one thing it brings to mind was back during the civil rights
    period I was very conscious when I met a black person for the
    first time that I had to "prove" myself to them. By this I mean
    - as best as I can describe it - that they were testing me, and
    I assume other white people to be sure that under the friendly
    exterior there lay a real interest in who they were and what
    they were interested in and a real commitment to justice, not
    just a "summer soldier" attitude. It was a feeling of being on probation
    and having to show that you were not a racist, and not some
    bubble head trying to "be nice" to blacks because it was "in".

    Although not excatly the same, this is similar to what is being
    talked about here in regard to women reacting to men.
    
    Bonnie

    I really am uncomfortable with the "violence for violence" reaction.
     For me, violence is wrong, period (matter of personal conviction,
    here; I recognize that others would disagree).
    
    If I had been willing to be even a little more violent, perhaps
    I wouldn't have been raped.  So which is worse: living with the
    aftermath of a rape, or with the knowledge that I have been violent
    with another human being (albeit a pretty slimy one...)?    
    
    Maybe an easy decision for some, but I dunno...
    
    Lee

    Re .39, I agree with Lee.  "Violence for violence" has sort of a
    "if you can't beat them join them" attitude.
    
    I have no interest in learning how to fight or use or own guns.
     (I would consider carrying mace, but I thought it was illegal.)
     I be miserable in one of those oriental fighting classes.  I have
    no interest in it.  As far as I'm concerned guns were invented only
    to take life and since very few of us have to go hunting in order
    to survive today, I see no reason for people to even have guns.
    
    I'm not going to let the ignorant, violent people of the world force
    me to accept a life style I believe is wrong.
    
    Lorna
    

   Mace and tear gas are legal in some states and illegal in others (Mass
   I believe treats them in the same category as firearms, NH allows them).
   
   Similarly you can buy electric "stun guns" of various types that again
   are legal in some states (eg NH) but not others (eg Mass).
   
   However these are, in my opinion, dangerous options. You have to be near
   enough to use them, and there is a real risk of the assailant taking
   them from you and using them against you.
   
   As for firearms: I don't want to drive this debate down a rat hole, but
   target shooting is an Olympic sport with 15 seperate medal competitions.
   America is one of the few civilised countries that still allows its citizens
   to own firearms for self defence.
   
   Finally a colleague asked me about my earlier story of the young woman
   who hospitalised a knife wielding assailant: a word of explanation. She
   used a standard defence that relies on the fact that your leg is longer
   than the assailants arm, and so leaned back to avoid the knife thrust,
   and kicked him in the chest. Had she done this in the gym at full force
   she would have broken a few ribs, and risked bursting a blood vessel,
   or possibly if the blow landed just right, stopping the heart. ie the
   blow either causes minor injuries or is lethal. Why then the very severe
   injuries caused here? Simple really, in the gym she would have been fighting
   bare foot. In the parking lot she was wearing shoes. And at the time
   stilletto heels were fashionable...
   
   /. Ian .\

    I've been thinking about where and when I feel safe, and where I
    start putting up my defenses. Surprisingly, I feel most safe in
    my bedroom at home and at work (not necessarily in that order!).
    Work is populated by lots of people I know, and peoples' behavior
    is (mostly) restrained here. My bedroom has always been my refuge
    and the most safe spot in my house. I've lived away from my mother
    and her husband since 1974, and it's only in the last few years
    that I can comfortably sit in my own living room.  
    
    I, too, find myself becoming extremely alert when walking down
    unfamiliar streets in the dark, or when approaching my car in the
    dark. I also have a tendency to freeze when I'm really scared (I've
    actually had the experience of trying to scream and not having any
    sound come out). So when I'm feeling tense and scared, I force myself
    to breathe deeply and slowly. That way, if I'm surprised, I'll have
    air in my lungs that can be pushed out with a sound.
    
    Liz

    If mace is legal in NH, could someone tell me how
    and where to obtain it?
    
    Of all possible means of dealing with *my* fears,
    carrying mace is by far the most comfortable, 
    most reasonable method I can think of, for me.
    
    Jacki
    

    re finding Mace/tear gas
    
    buy a copy of Guns & Ammo from your friendly magazine seller, and check
    out the mail order businesses selling the macho goodies - they nearly
    all sell gas sprays and electro-stun guns.
    
    /. Ian .\

    re: Mace / Tear gas 
    
    I seem to recall a "mugging" that took place in <somewhere>, in
    which the assailant used MACE to "disable" the victim. 
    
    "ANYONE" can purchase these <chemicals>; even the asailants !
    
    Bob
    

    ... and I saw a test of hand-carried MACE on television a few years
    back which showed it to be pretty ineffectual. Somebody that didn't
    really want to attack might be dissuaded, but a determined assailant
    was not stopped. In real life, he (sexual stereotype here?) might
    just get madder. 

    
         Several years ago, on the campus of the University of Colorado
    at Boulder, the number of rapes began to skyrocket.  My girlfriend
    was a near-victim, and that gave me the need to take action.  I,
    with several other males from Baker Hall (a large dorm) approached
    the University with the idea to escort women home from various
    locations on and near campus.  They gave us their blessing though
    they could not officially sanction us.
    
         A local women's group (they reffered to themselves as 'WOMYN')
    complained that there was the possibliity of rape by the males who
    were doing the escorting.  As a result, the University ordered the
    service ended.  Another escort service (which remains in service
    to this day) apparently uses mainly female escorts, though I am
    really not fully aware of their recent changes.
    
         We don't feel anything like anger over this, since our purpose
    is being served, but I will never quite understand the antagonistic
    position of that group of womyn.  We tried.  We always had more
    than one escort with a escortee or group of escortees.  I, as a
    rather large male, feel as if I will never be trusted.
    
         I guess I understand, but I will never like it.
    

    You sound like you really do understand, like it or not!  Just be
    glad that the situation doesn't mean danger for you, only annoyance.
    The male 'escort' service worked at U-Mass and it worked at Clark
    University, which is in one of the highest-crime areas in Worcester.
    I too would be suspicious of a group of males who volunteer to help
    'maidens in distress' but I would have checked them out rather than
    just written them off.
    
    Re: mace - I've heard that hairspray, (in the old freon-laden cans),
    works just as well at stinging the eyes.

    re .48 (mace, hairspray):
    
    How 'bout spray paint...
    
    "Yes officer, the guy that attacked me now has a flourescent orange
    face, should be easier to identify"
                                      
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

If you're thinking of carrying a weapon (even Mace or spray paint),
you would be well advised to talk things over with someone with
experience -- perhaps a rape hotline.  I would suspect that, if you
are attacked and don't totally incapacitate the assailant, you might
be in even worse trouble.

My friend who did research on self-defense training and rape once
mentioned that women who had self-defense training were less likely
to be raped, but more likely to suffer additional injuries during
the rape.

Martin.

    re -1:
    
    Personally, I'd rather suffer the additional injuries than be raped.
    I'd rather live with the injuries than with the memory of rape (or
    worse - some disease or pregnancy).  To know that I fought as hard as
    I could against some greasy slimeball worm and come out badly injured,
    but with my dignity intact.
    
    	-Ellen

    re .51:
    
    > Personally, I'd rather suffer the additional injuries than be
    > raped.
      
    Understandable, but I interpreted Martin as saying that those who
    resist, but don't incapacitate the attacker, end up getting raped
    AND more injuries.
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    RE 52
    
    >"...these statistics imply that upon receiving a firm no and
    >determined physical resistance that the same proportion of men
    >would turn homicidal?"
    
    I learned from the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center that a survey
    was done on Harvard men within the past 5 years (sorry I don't remember
    the year) and one of the questions asked the men if they would rape
    a woman if they could get away with it.   93% answered yes.
    
    Tamar

  A couple of years ago I heard a report on National Public Radio about
  a similar research project (I hope it's the same one mentioned in .54
  because 93% would be unthinkable).
  
  The experimental and control groups consisted of about 1000 college-age
  men.  They found that 33% of the men admitted that they might commit a
  rape if they thought they could get away with it.  (Sound of my jaw
  hitting the floor -- note that this is the percentage that *admitted*
  thinking this way.)  They found further that the percentage could be
  increased to 50% by showing a series of five pornographic films that
  portrayed violence against women. 

  However, I've also read reports that claim the issue is not pornography;
  these reports say that the films are harmful to the extent that they
  show violence toward and degradation of women  -- the pornographic
  aspect is unimportant. 

  JP

    Something that I feel and have not seen mentioned here is the way
    some men assume that if you let one man put his arm around you or
    flirt with you that it's open season. You always have to be aware
    that you will leave the "wrong impression" in some male minds. 
    
    I can share an off-color joke with men that I know well but the
    same joke around men I don't consider close would embarass me and
    make me very uncomfortable. The same goes for physical contact.
                                                        
    I agree with the others that stated we do not live in gut tearing fear
    of all men but we must always be cautious. I have to agree with
    Carol that the parking lot after dark is worthy of suspicion. I
    always check the back seat to make sure it's empty and have my keys
    ready to use as a weapon. I prefer walking out with one of the guys
    if it's after dark. Unfortunately there's not always someone ready
    to leave when you are. 
    
    To all you men who read this file, the Goddess knows we love you
    (we can't help ourselves :*)) it's just that we have to be so carefull
    it takes time to trust you.  Liesl 
    
                                

    Sometimes I am almost ashamed to be a man because so many men are
    animals that women assume that I must be also.  If I say 'hi' to
    a woman, I get a look like "what are you going to do?".  Hell, I'm
    just being friendly, but I can understand why it happens.  It takes
    me about 2 weeks to win a friendly 'hi' in return.  Its too bad
    that women have to be so cautious.  I had almost given up on saying
    anything to women because of the looks that I got.  Its getting
    a lot better now that I've worked here for 4 years and my face is
    becoming familiar to people and, after reading this note, I can
    better understand why it happens.
    
    Spence

    re .58:
    
    yes, Spence, that is the worst part about it; "we" can't know if
    you're nice or not by your face or your walk, so we develop a defensive
    attitude towards _everybody_.  I am a friendly person and like to
    walk around smiling, saying hi to people, but I can't without fear.
    
    Lee

    re: .60
    I was about to do the same schtick that's been done here before
    (hoping you'd take a close look at it, and think about it for a
    minute), and say something like the last 18,720 I was treated in
    a negative, sexist manner, it was by men (now this number is *tres*
    conservative). But that's not true; there were some women in there
    too :-(. 
    	Mez

    > I suggest that we be defensive by situation and place instead of race
    > and sex.

    But it has already been shown that there are very few situations
    and places where a woman can really let her guard down.  And I'm
    sure that attacks on women are made almost exclusively by men (except
    perhaps in Filene's Basement :-).  I agree with your sentiment,
    but I'm afraid that it doesn't open up a whole lot of carefree
    horizons.  
    
    			Bb

    re -1:
    
    I think maybe what Mez was talking about wasn't necessarily situations
    in which she was in danger, but rather situations in which she feels
    *uncomfortable*.  I, as a woman, am placed in these situations at
    least weekly.  There is one man who works in this building who openly
    leers and stares at women.  I find this truly *uncomfortable*.
    For the same reason, I don't go into the natural foods store I used
    to since the new owner is a man who leers at me and calls me honey.
    
    Until the world is free of these kind of turkeys, women will never
    be truly free.
    
    Dangerous?  No.  Uncomfortable?  You bet!
    
    	-Ellen

    My greatest time of fear was while in the army.  I lived in a 
    barracks of 130 women. 10 of us were straight.  The harassment towards
    the 10 of us from 120 lesbian women was tremendous.  I have never
    felt the same level of fear as I did then, but then I had been beaten,
    chased, cut, stabbed, and thrown down a flight of steps.
    This was done to all ten of us in a 1 year time frame.  My commanding
    officer was also a lesbian so all these attacks never got past her
    for investigation.  Eventually, I went to the male chaplain and
    he got me moved out of the barracks.  I guess it sounds funny, but
    it is military lesbians that I fear most.  I don't fear men though...
    one thing I learned in the army that is hard to explain....(they
    taught us protection against men) was if you walk with an air
    of kick a**, like extreme confidence, you are left alone, however
    if you walk like a possible victim, your chances increase in becoming
    one.  It works......
    vivian

    re .65:
    
    It is very hard to tell who is Neanderthal and who is a normal
    human being.  And if you try talking to/reasoning with a neanderthal,
    he will often seem pretty human for a while.  The date rape note
    is one explanation of why we feel this fear, even at stupid times;
    you can be raped by your best friend or SO, even in your own home.
     How are you to know that this person you thought was human is actually
    Neanderthal?  And once you have had even one close call, that
    unreasoning fear can crop up at the stupidest of times.
    
    And even though I have told myself again and again that it was
    particularly nasty neanderthals who raped me, it is hard to be near
    anyone of that race without being angry.  These fears are not things
    you can reason with, and if we could control them, life would be a lot
    nicer.
    
    Lee 
     

    This reminds me of how dogs (animals) can sense fear.  Maybe people
    (muggers) can also sense fear.
    
    I was told to walk upright, not slouched, chest out, and looking
    up, not down.  Reasons: slouching is a sign of inferior feelings.
    Chest out shows confidence in oneself.  Looking down is a sign of
    fear and also gives a mugger/rapist the edge in not being seen ahead
    of time.
    
    Spence

    Attitude has much more to do with self-defense than any combination
    of techniques.  Women can be taught what to do, but in an intensely
    stressful, adrenalin-pumping situation no one is likely to think
    of it unless they are powered by a fundamental will-to-survive and
    will to hurt others in order to do so.  I'm sure this sounds
    horrendous, especially since women are so deeply conditioned to
    want to care for others, to see any social interaction from the
    other's point of view (mugging counts as a social interaction),
    that many of them don't really believe deep down inside that it's
    okay to hurt someone else in their own defense.  The cute tricks
    with the car keys, etc. won't work unless you're totally convinced
    you have the right to control your own body and life, the right 
    and the absolute willingness to tear someone's eyes out if that's 
    what it takes.  

"Attitude" is great, but when you're bluffing, sooner or
    later someone will call you on it. There is no substitute
    for effective *means* of self defense. To paraphrase -
    "God didn't make all people equal, Colonel Colt did."

    
    
    I am under the assumption that most attacks on women come from
    people that we know.  They know where or not you can defend
    yourself or not, there is no bluffing.  I think the idea of
    self-defence is good if a woman wants to do that but it will not
    stop her lover from raping her, or her father from beating her.
    
    The fear is not just of "the ones we do not know" it is mostly
    of the ones we love the most.
    
    _peggy	(-)
    		 |

    I didn't mean that "attitude" could be something that could
    be assumed as a bluff, or that it is a substitute for
    effective means of defense.  What I meant is that a fundamental
    conviction that you have the right and willingness to defend
    your being will take you a long way -- without it, the
    mace will remain unused in your pocketbook and you might as
    well hand over the Colt to your assailant.  With it, whatever
    comes to hand can be a weapon.  Admittedly, a pocketbook isn't
    much defense against an Uzi, and I'm not saying that 
    that determination is the only element in any struggle, 
    but without it, you can't effectively use what means of defense
    you have.

    A minor point, Ian.
    
    Don't confuse being fearful with appearing fearful.  Individuals
    can become experts at concealing their fear, appearing confident
    and fearless when in fact they are quivering in their boots.

    With you 100% on that, Catherine

        While it is true that bluffing doesn't work, it is not really
        the case that you have to be physcally capable of fending off
        any conceivable attack either. When I was young and got the guys
        to stop beating me up it wasn't because I was suddenly able to
        beat all or any of them. It happened when I said "Enough!", when
        I said deep done in the soul of me "This is wrong and it won't
        happen any more." 
        
        It didn't stop 100% or all at once, but I went from at least
        daily beatings to one or two a year, and then over a period of a
        couple of years it went way all together. To this day if I were
        to win a fight with almost anybody it wouldn't be from
        exceptional ability but from mere dogged determination. I've
        gone from being a little short and skinny to a little short and
        pudgy, or at least healthily plump. 
        
        I agree with Ian and Lisa Silwa, self defense is not the answer,
        at least not short of truly lethal training. If you are in
        physical danger it is wisest to cut and run. But even more
        important is to not get into the situation, and that can best be
        acheived by knowing deep down that you have the right to not be
        bullied and the determination to survive anything the world can
        throw at you. 
        
        When I was last beaten it was in college by a black tough whose
        only interest in being in college was that the alternative was
        the state penn. The last guy he beat up spent a long time in the
        hospital, and the local interpretation of affirmative action
        involved turning a blind eye. I didn't lift a hand in my
        defense--that's what he wanted an excuse to really let go--but I
        did defy him. Nor, advisable as it usually is, did I run--I was
        surrounded by his hooligans and they'd have stopped me sure. 
        
        I stood my ground and talked. When he threw my by the throat or
        knocked me down I got up. I worked my way to a more lighted area
        slowly and deliberately. I let him know that he could hurt me
        but he couldn't scare me. Eventually, a fellow student--another
        black--stopped him. I returned to the student union where it all
        had started and continued on with business as usual. I can't
        claim to know for certain, but Willy never beat another student
        after me, and I'll always believe it was because he couldn't
        risk running into another person he couldn't scare. He bullied
        and he threatened and he postured, but he didn't actually batter
        anyone again. 
        
        In my day I've fought back with passive defiance, with my fists,
        with weapons, and by running like hell. What I refuse to do is
        live in fear, or to not defend myself. What I know now and will
        never forget is that I have a right to not be bullied or beaten,
        and that I refuse to let others control me with fear or guilt.
        In some manner I will defend myself and the bastards will never
        win again. They terrorized me before and thereby they won. That
        will never happen again. 
        
        JimB. 

    I once read that the best defense against a rapist is to go along
    with him, pretending to enjoy it and request to do it right.  Then,
    when he has his pants around his ankles, kick him in the groin and
    run like hell.  
    
    Spence

    < Note 214.76 by HUMAN::BURROWS "Jim Burrows" >
                        -< What "attitude" means to me >-
	> What I refuse to do is
        >live in fear, or to not defend myself. What I know now and will
        >never forget is that I have a right to not be bullied or beaten,
        >and that I refuse to let others control me with fear or guilt.
        >In some manner I will defend myself and the bastards will never
        >win again. They terrorized me before and thereby they won. That
        >will never happen again.               
         
    
    		Once again, Jim, you say what I was gearing up to say.
    
    		Maybe I'm the only woman in the world that feels this
    way (sure seems like I'm in the minority in *this* note at least).
    But I don't really think so, in fact I know many more women that
    feel the way I do, than the way most of the respondents to this note
    seem to feel.  I DON'T live in constant fear/awareness/alertness (call it
    what you will).  I don't fear men as a class.  (This is not to say
    that I am without fear.  There are situations and individuals (male
    and female) that scare me shitless.)  What I refuse let happen is
    to let this make my life a constant battle.  
    
    		I take long walks at night in the dark by myself in
    my neighborhood.  I'm reasonable about it.  I stick to the better
    half/better light half of the neighborhood, but I still go.   I
    stop any time I damn well please to get gas for my car.  I certainly
    never go in "packs" to the bathroom.  (I think I'd fall over in
    shock if any of my friends or acquaintances suggested it!)  I walk
    by myself without fear in uptown, in the country, wherever.  This
    is not to say that I am reckless or that I ignore the risk of attack.
    Some one earlier in the note said that she would not learn to hurt
    another being because she (approximate quote) "refused to allow
    them to force her to live her life in a way she considers wrong".
    Well that's just how I feel.  If I allow "them" to make me feel like
    a constant potential victim, "they" have won.  Whether I have been
    attacked or not, whether any ever happens to me or not, "they" have
    won because "they" have caused me to live my life in a manner that
    I do wish to live it.                                          
    
   		I think the key to my sense of freedom from fear is
    the aforementioned CERTAINTY that I do not have to put up with
    this.  This frees me to act with a confident air that tends to keep
    the "wolves at bay".  And if I am attacked, (and it has happened)
    it frees me to act instantly and with righteous rage giving me strength
    and courage.
    
    		In the about 10 years that I have been an indepedent
    walker around town (for lack of a better term ;-)) I have been attacked
    twice.  Both times unsuccessfully.  In one instance, when I was
    about 15, a man attempted to snatch my purse in broad daylight on
    a sidewalk in Columbia, (The closest thing we've got to a big town
    here in S.C. :-)).  I grabbed the strap as he pulled the purse off
    my arm and pulled it HARD!  (I couldn't let him take it from me. I wasn't
    finished with the book I had in there! ;-)) When the purse was loose,
    I smacked him in the head with it.  (Remember the book?  It was
    a BIG hardcover...)  I then turned and ran and calmly informed the
    nearest policeman of what happened.  The bugger had disappeared so no 
    charges could be pressed.  I just continued my shopping around town.
    This was all automatic reaction from me, stemming from the fact
    that I was incensed that he should try this with me.  
    
    	Even though I'm only 5'1", I was not attacked again until my
    sophomore year in college.  I think that's due for most most part
    to my determined-I've-definiately-got-things-to-do-non-victim walk.
    (My belief in this is strengthened by the fact that the night I
    was attacked I was tired and walking much slower and without the
    cannonball aproach to traffic navigation I usually take.)  While
    walking on campus from the dining hall back to my dorm, I passed
    an area in the which one of the streetlights was burnt out.  A man
    jumped out from behind the bushes, put a hand over my mouth, and
    started pulling me back to the bushes and tried to pull my coat
    off.  My reaction was not fear but FURY.  I bit his hand (hard enough
    to draw blood) when he let go I turned and kicked him in the crotch
    as hard as I could.  He hit the ground.  I ran to the dorm to report
    the incident.  Again, I think it was that SURENESS that I would
    not allow this to happen, that allowed my to react to quickly and
    surely and really startle my attacker. In the 6 years since then,
    I have not been attacked again.
    
    		Before I get flamed...  I realize that not all situations 
    can be fought off.  I realize that not acting like a victim may
    not keep you from being attacked.  (Obviously, since I was attacked
    twice.)  But,... I could be attacked in my home any day of the week.
    I cannot be completely free from risk and still be alive.  I consider
    it a victory that I live my life the way I want to live and be damned
    to those that want to make me a victim.  They may make my body a
    the recipient of harm but I refuse to allow them to make ME a victim.
    
    tlh
     

    re 78:
    
    "Some folks have an easy answer.
     They buy a lock and they live in a cage.
     But my fear is turning to anger 
     And my anger is turning to rage.
     And I won't live my life in a cage. NO!"
    			    	-Holly Near

    
    I'll type in the whole song if I remember to bring the lyrics
    from home.
    
    	-Ellen

    re: .78
    
    you have expressed it exactly perfectly!  That "righteous rage"
    gives you power in moments of conflict, and that basic assurance
    that you are not a victim and refuse to live in fear gives you
    power in your life.  Unfortunately, most women are brought up
    to be victims, to have their lives shaped for them by others.
    This is considered a feminine virtue in our society.  You
    have not internalized the equation that woman = victim,
    but many women who have been conditioned to be "good girls" 
    are not so free.
    
    I believe strongly that all women need to rid themselves
    of the victim mindset in order to live as free human beings.
    The society needs to change as well, but a woman's freedom 
    cannot depend on waiting for the environment to adapt.
    It comes for each woman from knowing herself free within, 
    refusing to accept the victim's place assigned her by our 
    society and acting accordingly.  In due time, the society
    will be forced to change when the victims are no longer there.
    

    			The funny thing about VAX's is that they
    		like to break in the middle of the night.  Even
    		funnier is that when they do break, customers who
    		pay big bucks for 24x7 service contracts like to
    		have them repaired in the middle of the night (no
    		matter *where* the customer's site happens to be
    		located.)
    
    			When you work in Field Service, a "down
    		system" is enough to throw your body in "wide awake"
    		mode at almost any hour (no matter how little sleep
    		you've had.)  And when you head out into the night
    		in your little DEC-mobile (that happens to be filled
    		to the brim with expensive toys like oscilloscopes,
    		tools, and costly computer parts) -- it never occurs
    		to you that the part of town you are heading toward
    		might have dangers lurking about.  When the computer
    		goes down and the customer requests service asap --
    		you go.  It's that simple.  The fact that you are a
    		woman doesn't even come up in the conversation when
    		the decisions are made to provide service.
    
    			At least it never came up in *my* branch!!
    		We had 5 or 6 women in large systems (most of whom often
    		volunteered for extra standby duty) -- so we had women
    		out tearing around the city at all hours of the night
    		working on systems (sometimes in the worst parts of
    		town, like industrial areas.)

    			I can't speak for the other women in my branch,
    		but as for me, I never worried about my safety.  My
    		movements were *very* purposeful (I always made the
    		deliberate motions of a person who is where he/she is
    		*supposed* to be and is doing what he/she is *supposed*
    		to be doing.)  I was a person who fixed computers and
    		I was out on an electronic mercy mission.  I definitely
    		looked like I meant business (and I did.)  I never even
    		came *close* to having a problem out at night.

    			I don't make a habit of joy-riding or going
    		out strolling in the middle of the night -- but when
    		I have somewhere that I need to go, I go.  There's a
    		lot to be said for carrying yourself in a manner that
    		says you are out for a reason (and don't intend to be
    		hassled by anyone.)
    
    							Suzanne...

	re .79 

	Here's the rest of "Fight Back" as I remember it:

 	By day I live in terror
	By night I live in fright
	For as long as I can remember
	A woman can't out alone at night

	Fight Back! 
 	And so we've got to fight back 
	In large numbers
	Fight Back,  can't make it alone
	Fight Back,  in large numbers
	Together we can make a safe home

	Women all around the world
	Every color every religion and age
	One thing we have in common 
	We can all be battered and raped.

	<refrain, Ellen's verse, refrain>

	To be sung acapella, -- with a thousand women 
	marching at night in unsafe parts of the city.
	(or any other time you need a pick_me_up)

	- Beth

    I didn't want to start a new topic for this note, so decided to
    put it under "FEAR".... since if it happened to you, it could be
    "fearful" while happening...
   
    
    I was traveling in Boston on foot on Saturday, around 7pm, walking
    from City Hall to the Commons, almost past the graveyard where Samuel
    Adams is buried (sorry, don't know the street, but this should give
    you a good idea of the area)...
    
    We (my mom, brother (21), and my boyfriend (36 and 6"3') were walking
    on the sidewalk, when we were approached by five black youths (age 
    approx 15 to 16), we thought they were going to try to steal mom's 
    purse, so we edged her to the street, so they could not get to her, 
    HOWEVER, in the meantime, one of the youths grabbed my shirt at the 
    neckline (I thought he was trying to look at my chest - and thought - 
    why a free peek from me.... I don't have much "up there"), when it 
    suddenly dawned on me that he had stolen the gold chain I had around 
    my neck!... At the same time he did this, another one of the youths 
    yelled out "NO!"....     
    
    
    So please BEWARE of this tactic!  Luckily, nobody was hurt, I notified
    the cops (would not make a report though), and the necklace was
    a buy one get one free necklace sale, and it was $12.00 marked down
    to $6.00, buying one, getting one free made it a $3.00 purchase,
    so it wasn't a large monetary loss... just a nice looking CHEAP
    gold chain....
    
    However, if I can prevent it happening to another... that is what
    this note is for....
    
    Gale

     re .84:
     
     Fear is indeed a good topic for your note: I'd guess that the kids
     sensed right away that you were afraid of what they might be up to,
     which put them at a tremendous advantage.  Punks are much more likely
     to try to take advantage of people whom they figure won't fight back.
     I'm glad that the monetary loss was negligible and there weren't any
     physical injuries; it's a shame that you have (presumably) lost some
     of your sense of freedom, at least in terms of walking through the
     city.
     
     --Don
     
     p.s.: Unless you were going to describe the specific individuals
           who stole the chain, it seems to me that identifying their
           race is at best gratuitous.

    Gale, that sounds extremely terrifying.  I never worry about such
    incidents in a group of 4 people.  Were the kids armed, or did they
    assault you with intimidation and force?
    
    I am making a mental note to leave off even the imitation gold chains
    next time I go downtown!
    
    

    I don't know if they were armed... and I was not about to let anyone
    find out!
    
    It was brut force, and that was all, which is what surprised me
    because Bob is 6 foot 3 inches!!!
    
    On a happier note, I came home from work yesterday, and my mother
    gave me a box...  I opened the box, and there was a much nicer chain
    in it, with a request to not wear it into Boston :-)
    
    Gale (who is off to Fall River today)

	By not wearing exposed jewelry when walking in and around the
    city we are saying the scum have won, that we can't be protected
    from them.  I'm certain the experience was terrible and I feel sorry
    that you experienced it.
    
    	Libby, my wife, works for Bank of Boston in the heart of the
    financial district, and brings home many horrible stories of what
    the city of Boston is quickly becoming, and stolen jewlery is the
    least of problem.  We must not accept the city going to hell as
    some sort of preordained fact or insurmountable reality.  Scream
    at the politicians, at the mayor, at the damned police.  Don't accept
    the loss of the city, even a small part of it.  When we give up
    on the city, what will be next?
    
    Douglas

    I take exception to the comments about the city.  Indeed we have
    a high crime rate, but in proportion to the numbers of people in
    the city on a given day and the circumstances that breed crime the
    city is doing an excellent job.  I lived in Marlboro for many years
    and moved to Boston four years ago.  Some time ago Marlboro was
    considered one of the safest cities in the country.  And yet I know
    of two possible homicides in that city that were ignored by the
    local men in blue.  I also knew of several rapes that were not 
    prosecuted for whatever reason.  A local policeman was asked to
    resign when it was discovered that several stores on his beat had
    been robbed and it seemed that he might have been the robber.
    
    
    The politicians, the police and the neighborhood committees are
    doing everything they can to eliminate crime.  It is my opinion
    that the city of Boston has a real plan in place and is working
    that plan.  It appears to me that suburban communities try to 
    de-emphasize crime in their areas so the population tends to sit
    dumb and happy by their fireplaces until *it* happens to them.
    
    I was robbed in Marlboro, I have been robbed in Boston.  Fear does
    not make me change my ways common sense does.  I don't consider
    that giving in I consider it being pro-active.  Be prepared before
    you go into the street, whether it be in Marlboro or Boston.  The
    last murder in Marlboro was committed by a young man who lived in
    the neighborhood I brought my children up with.  It was very
    unfortunate, I was acquainted with his mother and my heart goes
    out to her.  My son attended the wake of the young woman that was
    killed and oh does my heart go out to them.  What they have suffered
    is incredible. 
    
    I don't walk on the street after dark, I don't give rides to anyone,
    and I do not wear expensive jewelry so that it can be seen.  I have
    not given in I am going to beat them at their game.
    
    These rules apply to Boston and the suburbs!
    
    

  moved by moderator
              <<< VIKING::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 633.0                            Fear                             3 replies
CAPVAX::PAPISON "You see what I'm saying....."       31 lines   4-JAN-1988 12:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                       -< Denial/Projection >-



Fear, hmmm, how do most people deal with it? 


Psychologists will tell us that denial and projection are the two most 
common forms of defense when fear is an issue.  Fear causes some varied
reactions it seems, and fear of personal inadequacies can cause pretty 
intense interactions.

How do you deal with fears based on inadequacies (real or perceived)??

Do you deny and/or project, although they seem to be connected rather that 
distinct??

How do you deal with someone projecting their fears on you, that is to say
someone has chosen you to the guilty party in order to deny their fears
are their own??

denial/projection seems to effect both the projector and projectee in 
different, and powerful ways.






================================================================================
Note 633.1                            Fear                                1 of 3
CAM2::PAPISON "You see what I'm saying....."         46 lines   4-JAN-1988 15:30
                             -< clarification.... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






I apologize for not setting the premise correctly for the base note. 

Let me try to define some "terminology" that may make this discussion,
and the base note more understandable. Certainly one could take argument 
with the definitions, and although it may degenerate into this, my
desire is that it would not.

The base note refers to "fear", not in the definition of "Websters", but in 
a much more philosophical way.  One can assume that humanity carries with 
it an overpowering sense of something "bad" in the world, something with 
the intent to hurt, something deserving of "punishment".  It is said that
mankind responds to the "sense of something bad" in two ways, dependent (in 
general) on whether the "bad" is external or internal.  If the sense of 
"bad" is external we could be expected to respond with anger or dislike (or 
more strongly "hatred")  If, on the other hand, the sense of "bad" in internal 
we could be expected to respond with "guilt". Wherever we see "guilt" we tend 
to respond with fear. What do  you think, do you feel comfortable with guilt 
or do you feel afraid the the "bad" you feel inside is something wrong with 
yourself.  That's where the discussion of denial/projection begins.   

Now then....based on those loose philosophical/psychological definitions on 
could say (in the sense of the base note), that fear can be defined as the
minds response to guilt.  Certainly the textbook definition of fear extends 
beyond guilt response, and yet one can now see (hopefully) the definition 
of "fear" as used in the base note. 

I would venture to say that many of us have not stopped to analyze our 
emotions to that level, however these premises are generally accepted in
psychological circles. I won't argue with .1 statement that it sounds like 
guilt to him/her, for the result is the same whether you call it fear or 
guilt.  My question being the same, perhaps restated, in the following 
manner:

If, in the course of a relationship you find yourself involved with someone 
who cannot adress his/her guilt/fear and in fact chooses to deny/project that 
guilt/fear (upon you) as a manner of escaping it, how do you respond ??





================================================================================
Note 633.2                            Fear                                2 of 3
ATPS::RELENG                                         12 lines   4-JAN-1988 16:24
                       -< Don't Keep It! Give It Back! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If I understand what you are asking for, you do it like this:

    First person:   "You made me feel guilty because..."
    Second person:  "I didn't *make* you feel *anything*.  If you
                    feel guilty, it's because that is how you've
                    chosen to feel."
    
    The first person will undoubtedly deny this, but in time, they stop
    trying to play the game of who to blame what on.  It's a game of
    manipulation.
    
    Is this what you were looking for?
================================================================================
Note 633.3                            Fear                                3 of 3
CAPVAX::PAPISON "You see what I'm saying....."       34 lines   4-JAN-1988 16:47
                               -< Maybe this... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    It's much more insideous than that I'm afraid.
    
    the dialog might be more like.
    
    First person (having been told all its life it's not o.k., and now
    feeling it) 
    
    "The reason this relationship failed is you!!!!"
    
    
    Hidden agenda..I'm afraid everyones right, and if I blame you then
    I can tell everone it's your fault, and not be told I'm inadequate
    Woe is me this person has treated me bad, can't you all see.
    Denying the guilt and projecting the blame
    
    Party 2 ( being sensitive to the need to LISTEN and wanting to make
    thinks work )
    
    " Gee, maybe the problem IS mine, now I feel bad about wanting to
    talk."
    
    Voila...Party 2 now feels guilty for the failure of the relationship
    and PRESTO it feels guilt
    
    Kinda makes a vicious circle wouldn't you say ???