Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    RE: .0
    
    What does it has to do with WOMANNOTES?  Equal rights dictate that
    if the topic can not be discussed in MENNOTES, certainly it can
    NOT be discussed here.
    
    Moderator, learn something from your peers and stomp down this topic.
    
    - Vikas

re: .1
Well, I think that it *is* pertinent.  I don't know what goes on in
MENNOTES, but that shouldn't dictate what happens here.

re: .0
I was thinking about raising a similar question yesterday: How have/haven't
the civil rights and woman's rights movements fit together over the years?
Have black women suffered more than white women in our society?

I've heard it said that women were ignored in the struggle for civil rights,
and that it was mostly male-dominated.

					-- hs

    (Vikas' header flagged "*heavy sarcasm*", Hal)
    
    I certainly have no objection to the topic being discussed here:
    like sexism, racism is a real and present danger to us all.
    
    						=maggie

    re: .1
    Why should the happenings in Mennotes govern what happens here?
     
    
    In relation to the topic in general, it's very worthy of discussion.
    And it is a womman's issue.  At the Michigan Womens Festival, I
    sort of wondered into the Women of Color discussions and was 
    amazed at how blind I had been to the racism/sexism issue.
    
    This topic is a little scary though. The potential for flaming
    is high, as is the potential for misunderstanding/misreading entries.
    With a little empathy, I think this can be a productive discussion.
    
   

I am amused at the response"lets squash this" As long as we keep "squashing"
    the issue, it will be an issue. I feel if during this discussion
    one feels the need to "flame" it might be wise to wait 24 hours
    before responding. I honestly believe that we noters are folks of
    above average intelligence,and am interested in some constructive
    comments.
    It has been a real learning experience for me to see how many people
    are racists with out realizing that they are.  Having grown up with
    blatent open racism I feel that today there isn't less, it just
    manifests itself differently.  

    re .5
    Pat,
    When you say that people are racists without realizing that they
    are, do you mean that they are malicious or just ignorant?
    Knowing how much I've grown and learned over the years from
    people who were willing to teach I've always assumed (perhaps
    naively) that a lot of racism (and sexism) is due to ignorance
    rather than active ill will.
    Bonnie

    I don't think we can overcome sexism without addressing the issues
    of racism.  On a person-to-person level it is another form of
    oppression and dis-empowerment.
    
    Bonnie, do you have any particular questions in mind?  It's a big
    topic!

    No - this was just in response to what was going on in Mennotes
    
    Tho perhaps my previous question might serve as a place to begin,
    ie the difference between ignorance which is ammenable to education
    and malicious intent.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .6
    Sometimes it hard to tell the difference. As the reciever or subject
    of racisim over the past 40+ years, it has been hard to tell if
    people are truly ignorant, or disguising their racisim to appear
    ignorant. Somehow ignorance is more accepted.  As people become
    better educated, and issues become more open, I feel some people
    become very dishonest.  I would rather you tell me openly that you
    have a problem dealing with my race or my feminity. This is especially
    true if we have to interact such as we do at work. 
    I have so many stories of things that have happened to me and my
    family it would make your head spin. Maybe I am too cautious but
    I take a long time developing trust in people. The reason I take
    so long, is because the intelligent people who are racists play
    a game. But if you wait long enough and have continuing interaction
    with them, the real person comes out of hiding.  This is especially
    true in a competitive situation at work. 
    I am working very hard to keep emotion out of ths discussion so
    I won't tell you some of the stories :-).

    
         As the attempted author of a similar topic in Mennotes, I can
    only say GOD BLESS US ALL FOR WOMEN.  I could not believe the blatant
    way in which the topic was bullied out of existence in that conference.
    
         Anyway, I would like to carry on the discussion here and forget
    those intolerants.  I broached upon the subject of the Reagan
    administration and their image as the most racist in recent memory.
     Does anyone think my idea is somehow wrong?  I state the points
    that:
    
         He fought to repeal the voting rights act.
    
         He fought to return tax-exempt status to racially discriminatory
         schools.
    
         He fought against the Martin Luther King holiday.
    
         South Africa (say no more).
    
         How about a point by point discussion of this.  We expected
    high temp talk, but let's keep the flames down, please.  I would
    really like to hear varied ideas, though.
    
                                       Bubba
    

    Re: .11
    
    The topic was not "bullied out of existance" in MENNOTES - the
    moderators simply felt that the topic had nothing to do with the
    subject of the conference, and I don't see any attempt to make
    the topic more relevant to WOMANNOTES either.  A suggestion was
    made of a more relevant conference for the discussion - I'm sorry
    you felt that that implied the topic was considered unworthy.
    
    Is it ok for me to start a topic on taxation, and how I don't like
    how Reagan has increased my taxes, in this conference?  After all,
    women get taxed too.  Is this any different than what you have done?
    
    Please understand that if every conference was considered open for
    every topic, none of us would be happy as we'd never know where
    to go to learn more about subjects that interest us.  There is
    an established conference for exactly the kind of discussion you
    started - one with a VERY active and very wide audience - and
    you were pointed to it. You chose to ignore the request.
    
    If WOMANNOTES starts filling up with notes irrelevant to women's
    issues, then I feel sorry for the women who depend on this conference
    as a source of help.
    					Steve

    
         The words "bullied out of existence" fit the situation perfectly,
    and I still believe that the topic is relevant to MEN as well as
    WOMEN.  Seeing as how I did not start the topic in WOMANNOTES, somebody
    apparently agrees with me.  I consider it singularly pusilanimous
    of you to continue the charade that the only reasoning behind the
    trashing of this topic in MENNOTES was its unsuitability.  That
    facade is rather transparent.  Also, your comparisons beteen race
    and taxes are as lame as your logic on this entire matter.
    
                                      Bubba
    

    okay, I started this here because I was upset at what happened
    in mensnotes. But Bubba, I'd rather talk about how racism affects
    black women and men, and more personally how it affects me as a 
    white woman (since I know what experiences I have had dealing with
    this monster) and how it affects my friends both black and
    white and my children, who are both black and white. I think that
    soap box is more apropriate for the political side of racism
    (and I will agree with you on what you say about the current
    administration, from my own point of view.) Would you please enter
    a note in soap on the political side and let us talk about feelings
    and personal experiences and how racism blights our lives as human
    beings, and how we can all try and grow together and eliminate it?
    
    peace, and with hopes that we can reach an understanding
    
    Bonnie

    
         Bonnie,
    
              You make a strong and logical point. 'Nuf said.
    
                                   Peace,
    
                                   Bubba
    

RE: <some early replies>
    
    That was a very caustic comment and it was made because of the way the
    subject was treated in the other conference.  I guess the bad taste was
    (is?) still fresh in my mouth.

RE: <*>    

    Even though there are literally thousands of announced conferences on
    ENET; according some people, there is just no `poper' place to discuss
    racism.  Sometimes I pick up a random subject and search the ENET
    conference listing and sure enough there is at least one conference
    devoted to it.  It should really tell us something about the average
    digital employees. Conspicuous absense of a single conference or even a
    single topic in any conference discussing the minorities issues should
    be a very rude reminder as to who is in real control of this compnay. 

    The reaction to the this topic has told us lot more about racism
    than thousands replies could have ever attempted to do.

    I really do not believe SOAPBOX would do any justice to this topic. The
    topic will probably die because of the lack of interest or will get
    killed because of too much interest. 
    
- Vikas 

    RE: .12

>    There is an established conference for exactly the kind of discussion
>    you started - one with a VERY active and very wide audience - and you
>    were pointed to it.  
    
    I respectfully challenge your assertion in the above statement. Why do
    you think discussing racism belongs in SOAPBOX?  Would you please
    kindly tell us the reasoning behind it?  Would you care to tell us your
    firsthand experience with SOAPBOX?  Are you an active contributor in
    that conferrence?  Do you really care enough about that conference to
    contribute in it?
    
- Vikas 

    I felt SOAPBOX was appropriate because the original base note did
    not really want to talk about racism, it complained about Ronald
    Reagan.  I have contributed to SOAPBOX - not often - but I don't
    see how that disqualifies me from offering the opinion that a
    political argument is at home there.  Mike Zaharee (the moderator
    of MENNOTES who write-locked the topic there) was of the same
    opinion, and he is the host and moderator of SOAPBOX, so I would
    guess his opinion would carry more weight.
    
    I vigorously protest the notion that just because I couldn't see
    how an argument about whether Reagan was a racist belonged
    in MENNOTES (or WOMANNOTES for that matter), that somehow I am
    a racist.  It just doesn't follow and isn't true.  It also matters
    not whether or not I would participate in the discussion - I certainly
    don't care to argue about Reagan's attributes, I have better things
    to do (not saying I disagree, but what's the point, really?)
    
    If this note wants to switch to how racism affects women, then fine,
    and a similar topic would not only be welcomed in MENNOTES but was
    invited several times, to no effect.
    
    I take particular offense at Bubba's own use of racism as a weapon
    against the MENNOTES moderators.  Perhaps if he would realize that
    one doesn't have to be black to be persecuted, he'd calm down a
    bit.
    
    I have nothing to be ashamed of regarding this topic, and resent
    attempts to insinuate otherwise by those who don't know me.
    
    					Steve

    
         I never specifically accused you of racism - of closed mindedness,
    at worst.  I do realize that persecution is universal, but any problem
    that large must be addressed piece-by-piece.  My piece is racism.
    I objected to being limited in my expression of my ideas.  'Allowing'
    me SOAPBOX did not seem very gracious, considering the wild, overgrown
    and gone-to-seed nature of that conference.  If you read some of
    the other contributors to this interconference squabble, you would
    see that there are several others who also believe that this topic
    IS relevant to MEN and WOMEN.  Imposing your personal opinion on
    one (and now two) conferences is particularly irritating.
    
                                       Bubba
    

    
         After having a PHONE conversation with Bonnie, I remembered
    another casualty of racism: existing interracial friendships.  When
    racial tension exists, even strong friendships suffer in at least
    a small way.
    
         A man I consider a close friend, seemed to show me an unseen
    side when we discussed issues (racial) of current events.  Being
    used to agreement in most of our conversations, I must say I was
    surprised.  It took me a great deal of time to see things from the
    other side, but finally I did.  He was used to supporting my opinion
    on racial situations in the past, but I sensed that he had tired
    of being the apologetic one.  Now, I try to seek out the opposing
    side's arguments in order to either support or weaken my own position.
     I have had to admit to the shortcomings of my own people as well
    as thrive in their successes.  Although I have to admit that my
    race has its own share of jerks, I will not take personal
    responsibility for them.
    
         What I would like to know is if anyone else has had an
    interpersonal relationship which suffered as a result of the prevailing
    mood.  It is easy to say that strong friendships would survive such
    problems unscathed, but I know they are actually put to the test.
    
                                   Bubba
    

    first off, Maggie and Karen my appoligies if this turns into
    another battle that disrupts the conference....
    
    
    second....
    
    This is my first experience with racism ....
    
    My father grew up in Lawerence Kansas, which was, at the time
    a pretty mixed racial community. He came east to school and married
    my mom who had really known no minority people except for
    a Chinese friend in college.
    
   hey moved to northernn Va. because of my father's job and when
    the supreme court decsion came through in 1954 they told us that
    it might mean problems but that it was important that Black kids
    (then called colored) should get a good education.
    
    I will be very honest and say that at that time the only Black
    person I knew was the woman who cleaned our house. But I will
    also add that my parents always firmly insisted that we respect
    Mrs. Brown and we did so.
    
    When I was in 9th grade the 7th grade was finally integrated -
    this after five years from the Court decision, and the closing of
    schools in Alexandria county and the closing of swiming pools etc.
    I was horrified at people's reactions - the name calling etc.
    I really found it hard to believe that people could act that way.
    
    Then when I was in 10th grade Black students were admitted to 
    the high school. One incident is rather permenantly ingraved
    on my memory. I was very shy, very out of it, a female "nerd"
    in a very social school. I walked into the girls room after 
    the one Black girl who had been admitted to the high school
    and saw here standing in front of the toilet stalls with about
    15 white girls staring angrily at her to keep her from using
    the toilet. And I was an still am ashamed that I did not have
    the courage to come to her defense and make those monsters
    let her use the john.
    
    But I did realize then that that girl was far more out of it
    than I could ever be, but that we did have something in common.
    
    It wasn't until college until I had a Black friend for the first
    time (altho we moved to New Jersey that same year), but that
    experience was the first time I was able to see how all of us
    are really alike no matter how we appear to .
    
    There must be others with similar stories
    
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s.
    
    any volunteers to start this one in Soap?

    Re .14
>    Even though there are literally thousands of announced conferences on
>    ENET; according some people, there is just no `poper' place to discuss
>    racism.  Sometimes I pick up a random subject and search the ENET
>    conference listing and sure enough there is at least one conference
>    devoted to it.  It should really tell us something about the average
>    digital employees. Conspicuous absense of a single conference or even a
>    single topic in any conference discussing the minorities issues should
>    be a very rude reminder as to who is in real control of this compnay. 

    Just 2 days ago, I searched for a NOTES file about 4 wheel drive
    vehicles and there isn't one.  If I can find the resources, I plan
    to start one.  I guess that means that the company is being controlled
    by people who are against 4WDs.  
    
    If there is no conference about minorities, then take the initiative
    to start one.  I can't think of a better moderator than Bubba or
    Vikas.  Maybe you can work together on it.  
                                     
    Spence

    
         Everyone,
    
              I assure you that, if I have anything to say about it,
    this topic will not disrupt the conference.  Even if I have to swallow
    my pride (a feast indeed) and keep totally quiet.  I apologize for
    what has already been said (disruptively) and hope the topic goes
    on peacefully.
    
                                   Bubba
    

    I think that if the topic had been stated as .20 stated it, there
    would have been no problem.  
    
    Along that line, I have a friend who is black.  We get along great.
    But, when another black comes in the room and they do their jive (I
    guess that's what it is) I feel uncomfortable, sometimes entertained.
    I don't feel comfortable talking about racial issues with him because
    I feel that if I don't agree, then it would disrupt our friendship.
    It is too volatile of a subject to talk freely about.
    
    This is more the type of topic I was looking for.
    
    Spence

    
         I think that if you really want to be friends (good friends)
    you have to put that uncertainty to rest.  I am aware of that same
    change when my friends of various races meet.  I used to do the
    same thing to girls when I was a pre-teen.  I would treat them like
    queens when I was alone, but when I was with 'the guys' she lost
    that royal treatment.  My pool of friends have become rather
    enlightened as a matter of course.  Some have had only limited exposure
    to other races, but now have a rainbow to deal with.  You have to
    talk to him, frankly, about your- and his uncomfortable feelings.
     You would be surprised at how effective one extremely uncomfortable
    talk can be (with the ensuing nervous laughter).  Minorities have
    developed a lessening in their sensitivity to such things, they
    have had no choice.  There is nothing more distressing than a friend
    who 'walks on eggshells', because by definition that means you will
    never get to know that person.  
    
         Mutual respect: if he gives it, make sure you return it.
    
                                   Bubba
    

    For anyone who has been involved in any of Digital's valuing
    differences work, one of the concepts which is stressed repeatedly
    is that we can't look at difference in a vacuum.  If feminists are
    comfortable with other feminists and get together with other feminists
    in a conference called Womannotes and only discuss feminism, we
    may feel part of an "in-group" and have our point of view reinforced,
    but we won't be learning and challenging ourselves in the same way
    that we could if we can use what we have in common to give us the
    courage to look at issues like racism, classism, lack of tolerance
    for sexual preference, and so forth.  I don't think we can
    compartmentalize intolerance, prejudice, and lack of power into
    separate conferences, even though we might have conferences which
    start in one place or another and attract different groups of people
    initially.
    
    I am very grateful that this conference continues to be a forum
    for all types of women's issues, and for all the aspects of women's
    lives.  We live in a culture that has been historically racist and
    sexist.  We are not "women" in a vacuum.  

    In reply to original question on whether Racism should be discussed
    in this conference..... Yes I think it should, sexism/racism are
    linked.
    
    I am a white woman who TRIES very hard not to be racist, but after
    27 years of social conditioning I continually have to challenge
    my assumptions.  I don't see racism limited to the black/white issue;
    in the UK Irish jokes are very prevalent.  I have black friends
    and Asian/Indian friends and if I value their friendship I have
    talked to them about racism and although it was sometimes uncomfortable
    I always learnt from it.
    
    I can't say I am not racist (I don't want to be racist).... I think
    everybody is racist, but I think everybody should try not to be and
    continually challenge their views and assumptions.
    
    Any discussion here can only help me not to be racist..... carry on. 8-)
    
    In sisterhood
    Janice
                                                         

    		Other noters have mentioned (in various notes) that
    	the women's movement has its roots in the civil rights
    	movement.  Both movements have certainly had political *and*
    	social implications that have affected us all.
    
    		For that reason, I think it is not only appropriate
    	to discuss the social aspects of this issue -- it is also
    	appropriate to discuss the political aspects.  (We have a
    	note on the ERA, and that is political, after all.)
    
    		At any rate...  It seems to me that it is quite
    	common for people of different races to tiptoe around
    	discussions of racism.  Just as the wounds of sexism often
    	run deep, I would imagine that the wounds of racism run
    	deep as well.  Even though we are capable of discussing
    	these things, I think that most people feel it would be an
    	invasion of privacy to walk up to a black person and say,
    	"So, Terry, have you suffered racism a lot in your life or
    	what?"  (Just as it would be an invasion of privacy to walk
    	up to a woman and say, "So, Jean, have you been discriminated
    	against much lately for being a woman?  Been raped much in
    	your life so far?")
    
    		Let's face it -- in nearly all cases, our tendency
    	is going to be that we will give the person the option of
    	talking about it or *NOT* talking about (by letting the black
    	individual or the woman -- or *whoever* -- bring it up first.)
	It's human nature, I think, to want to offer that courtesy.
    
    		For those of us who are of the majority race (which
    	in most of the U.S. is white), I think there is also a
    	tendency to flinch when we hear of how others of our race
    	have treated minority races (just as many men flinch when
    	they hear how some men have treated women.)  In this file
    	we have seen some men react defensively when women have gone into
    	great detail about examples of sexism.  You can go into other
    	notesfiles and see that a few men have written, "The women in
    	WOMANNOTES think men are totally useless" (just because some
    	women in this file said we could survive on our own.)  
    
    		Obviously, some folks did not (and STILL do not)
    	understand what we meant when we said that.  No matter how
    	many times we jump in to correct the misconception, the same
    	people keep re-stating it.  :-}   
    
    		Sexism and racism are part of the same evil.  Racism
    	has been brought up in a wide variety of ways all throughout
    	this conference because the similarities between sexism and
    	racism are so strong.  
    
    		I've heard many people (both male and female) say that
    	this conference has had the effect of raising their consciousness
    	about sexism.  I think a discussion on racism could have the
    	same effect (for all of us.)

    		I'm glad to see that we are able to talk about this
    	subject here!!  [Hello, R.S.!!]  :-)
    
    						      Suzanne... :-)

    <--(.10)                        
        I have so many stories of things that have happened to me and my
    family it would make your head spin. 
    ... 
    I am working very hard to keep emotion out of ths discussion so
    I won't tell you some of the stories :-).
    ====================================================================
    
    Pat, if you can bear to do so I think many of us would have our
    consciousness raised abruptly by some of the history you can tell.
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

    In 1963 I participated in the Fresh Air program out of New York.
    I was interviewed and accepted as a host parent.  I was excited
    and shared this news with a neighbor.  She thought it was a great
    idea and stated that if it worked out next year she might apply.
    
    Wanda arrived during the day, she was a little bit of a thing. 
    I think her mother stretched her birthdate in order to get her out
    of the city.  She was barely four.  I had it all planned that she
    would call me Auntie Joyce, but I was nervous and never got to 
    explaining this to Wanda.  
    
    We got home and the neighbors were all waiting.  They had Kool-Aid
    and cookies to welcome the youngster from New York.  The adults
    sat at the picnic table and watched the children playing...it was
    a good feeling.  Wanda scraped her knee and came running to me
    "Mommy, Mommy"  I cuddled her and we all smiled.  At some point
    the neighbor's mother stopped by.  
    
    That evening the husband knocked on our door.  We let him in and
    within a few moments the joy I had felt during the day was replaced
    by anger, hurt, frustration and whatever other emotion that one
    feels when logic is replaced with stupidity.  Wanda was no longer
    welcome in the neighbor's yard because after all she could have
    designs on one of their boys and try to marry them!
    
    Wanda became a part of our family and taught my youngsters many
    good things as I am sure we taught her.  I only know a small part
    of what racism did to me and I do not know if I could function if
    that type of attitude was part of my everyday life.

    I think this topic is relevant to women.  Racism has only actually
    touched my life once.  Four or five years ago I drove to Hampton
    Beach on an early spring day with a black, male friend that I worked
    with at the time.  We were walking at the edge of the road talking
    about all kinds of things, watching his dog run on the beach, and
    having a wonderful time.  All of a sudden a pick-up truck with two
    young white men in it slowed down.  They stuck their heads out of
    the window and one of them yelled, "Hey, nigger, can't you get one
    of your own kind" or something very similar and equally offensive.
     My friend immediately became incensed, went up to the truck, gave
    them the finger, and started swearing something about "white boys"
    to them.  I was scared sh**less.  I thought what the hell do I do
    if they start fighting.  It happened so fast and was so crazy. 
    But, the truck finally sped off.
    
    I said to my friend, why didn't you just ignore them and keep walking.
     They were just ignorant, stupid people who didn't deserve to be
    noticed.  But, he said he couldn't ignore it.
    
    I was so outraged to think that these two white guys who, under
    normal conditions, probably wouldn't give a damn if I had a date
    in 6 months felt *they* had a right to say something about who I
    *chose* to spend my day with.
    
    Lorna
    

    This discussion has so far been focused on racism as it has affected
    relationships between Black and White people, today I had a really
    strange experience I would like to share this and perhaps solicit
    some other opinions.
    
    I was wandering around the Seattle center,a multi purpose civic
    facility where the DEC uVAX2000 announcement was being held .
    By accident I walked into a room where there was a presentation 
    entitled "AUSCHWITZ, a crime against humanity".
    At first ,I simply thought 'wrong room' and was about to head out
    but the slide caught my attention and I stayed. 
    The presentation was vivid ,explicit and complete with testimonials
    from survivors. In one half hour ,I had had racism completely
    redefined. 
    I was not ignorant of the atrocities,in fact i had majored in history
    (late European) in the 6th form (13th grade) ,and continued to study
    the period as a minor in college,but I had never before heard the
    daily routine of a concentration camp victim described ,complete
    with photos ,by a survivor.
    
    We are close to the U.S. capital of the neo nazi movement here in
    the northwest and the rhetoric we hear tends to be as anti Semitic
    (if not more so ) than it is anti Black,anti immigrant etc.
    The apalling part of all this ,is that this movement is visibly
    growing as the Northwest rural economies get poorer,with the continuing
    decline in agriculture,forestry,and mining .
    
    Is the rest of the country aware of what these guys are up to ?
    
    Robin
    
    

RE: .18

    Really, all of us including myself, yourself and the original author
    know very well that the SOAPBOX is NOT for discussing serious issues.
    The current discussion here and in MENNOTES supports my notion that
    many contributors felt that there was no reason for the topic to
    be closed down in the first place.
    
    You could conceivably argue against Reaganbashing in MENNOTES but the
    original topic had raised very serious issue about increasing racial
    tension in last six years and certainly in most cases it is _men_ who
    are at the root of almost all racial incidents.  
    
    Even though there was a chance that the topic might have got _very_
    hot, at the time it was closed down, there was not a single flame or
    any response which could have been construed as either `offensive' or
    `derogatory'.  Closing down any discussion borders on applying prior
    restraints. Unless and until `clear and present danger' could be
    shown, the moderators should not have closed the topic. 
    
    Not only moderators' own personal bias should ever be a factor in
    closing down a discussion, it can never even _appear_ as a factor
    to the rest of the contributors.
    
>    It also matters not whether or not I would participate in the
>    discussion  
    
    It certainly does give entirely different perspective to your
    objections in discussing it in the conferences which you moderate. 
    
    Shouldn't the further discussion on the issue of how the topic
    was handled be directed towards ETIQUETTE conference?
    
RE: .22
    
    There are enough conferences on digital network to discuss automotive
    issues.  And I also doubt that your starting a topic in CARBUFFS would
    have caused the moderator to kill it off. 
    
- Vikas 

    can't you guys keep your spat in mennotes, and stick to the point
    here? it's a little like running home to mommy to make billy give
    you back your ball.
    
    /bruce

    Re: .34
    
         Yes, I have heard of the situation you describe.  Idaho was
    the state that was under discussion on the Oprah Winfrey show. 
    One of the groups, the Order, wants five northwestern states given
    to them so that they can form a separate country.  They state that
    since there is a smaller than 3 percent population of Blacks in
    the area, it should be less of a problem.  I have no idea of the
    veracity of their statistics.  They, like other groups of their
    type, dislike several different classes of people.  Generally,
    minorities, gays, liberals, etc. are their targets.  As it turns
    out, their wide spectrum of enemies makes them far easier to fight
    and as a result, they have not achieved the high impact they want.
    
                                           Bubba
    

    Please be careful of your underestimation of the power
    of a small sect over a large sect.

    
    There's no underestimation, I assure you.  This group and others
    are currently being monitored by several concerned groups (private),
    and the US justice department.  As a matter of fact, I am more wary
    of them than most people I who have discussed it with me.  They
    seem to be actually attempting to realize their goals rather than
    just being irritants.  They are accused of robbing more than one
    armored car, robbing 2 california banks, and several murders.
    
    As far as their concern to women, several members of their group
    have been indicted for killing white women who are 'too friendly'
    with black men.  An infiltrator has reported that this is one of
    the main goals of the group (racial purity).
    
                                   Bubba
    

    Re.38
    An interesting note ,do you care to expand ? I believe that this
    is exactly what is going on here in the NW .
    
                                               Robin.....

    An addendum to .40 .....
    I never underestimate people with automatic weapons....
    that would be dumb.
                                  Robin....
    

    There was a great piece on NPR a couple of Sundays ago, an essay
    [talk?] by a black lesbian.  She discussed at length the problem of
    being a feminist and black; she feels the feminist movement is largely
    white (and racist) and the civil rights movement is largely male (and
    sexist).  Anyone remember her name and/or care to comment?

    
Lee

    Discrimination based on class structure is amazingly easy to develop.
    Few years ago, Frontline had a special on this topic.  Two main stories
    were presented.
    
    In the first one, school children bellow age of ten were subjected to a
    very bizarre experiment.  Their teacher methodically separated
    blue-eyed students from brown-eyed.  For couple of days, she treated as
    if blue-eyed students were superior to the brown-eyed.  Almost
    immediately the best friends turned against each other.  Not only that,
    even the brown-eyed students demonstratively did poor on the tests
    during that period. 
    
    Later she turned around and started treating brown-eyed students
    more favorably.  Amazingly enough, they started scoring better
    on the tests.
    
    Eventually she explained it to students what she was doing.  After
    fifteen years, the student had a re-union.  They still remember that
    experiment very vividly. They were adamant that the experience taught
    them not to discriminate.  Even though the experiment was emotionally
    exhausting, they would still recommend it for their own children. 
    
    Very similar experiment was conducted on adults.  I think this was a
    one day seminar arranged for jail officials in one of the predominantly
    white city in south.  Systematic discrimination again based on eye
    color was used.  At first the participant could not believe what
    was happening.  But after constant humiliation by the teacher, almost
    all of the brown-eyed adults were on the verge of crying.  I believe
    the participants learned more about discrimination in those few hours
    than they had ever known before in their entire life.

    If someone can remember more details about that Frontline specials,
    please provide a pointer here.

- Vikas

    re .43:
    
    I remember that one, it was on just last year. Your synopsis is
    as complete as I remember.
    
    Recently I also heard someone telling about a psychology experiment
    that was probably the inspiration for that teacher. A psychologist
    threw a party for the faculty of his college. Each person he gave
    either a blue hat or a green hat, randomly. After the party had
    been going for a couple hours, he noticed that the blue hats tended
    to be on one side of the room, and the green hats on the other.
    The psychologist asked on of the blue hats what he thought of the
    group of green hats on the other side of the room. The response
    was "I don't know, but I don't like what they're planning."
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

I saw "The Gods Must Be Crazy" on cable a while ago. I thought it was
mildly entertaining. I mentioned this to a friend, who asked "Well,
was it racist?". This got me thinking. I hadn't noticed that it was.
I could think of reasons it might be perceived as racist. I can also
think of reasons for the casting choices made. So, can anyone out there
who saw the movie tell me why it is/might be racist? (I'm not particularly
interested in why it might not be.)

Also, I know there is overt sexism and subtle sexism. Overt racism I
can often spot (re: the story about the 4 year old girl, a few replies
back). What about subtle racism? How can I catch myself?
	Mez

    
    
    RE: .45  "...Must be Crazy"                                 
                                                                
    When the movie "The God's Must be Crazy" opened in Rochester, NY,
    a bunch of knee-jerk Liberals began picketing it right away, without
    having seen it, simply because it was a South African film. 
                                                                
    I saw it.  I liked it.  I didn't think it was racist.  I'm a Liberal.
                                                                
    
                                                                

    re: .47
    
    But is it pertinent that the "natural man" and the "bad guy terrorists"
    were all black, and the hero and heroine (and the hero's jerk
    adversary) were white? I could argue it both ways. I'm looking for
    someone tuned into racism (the way many women are tuned into sexism)
    to give me a perspective.
    	Mez

    
    
    
       
    
                        I thought the hero was black.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I've seen the film and did not read about how it was supposed to
    be racist until afterwards.  One fairly laughable "example" of
    racism was supposedly that the black women were often shown topless
    while the white woman was not.  This of course ignores the reality
    of cultural differences.
    
    I thought the film amusing, but not as wonderful as many make it
    out to be.
    				Steve

< Note 228.42 by NRLABS::TATISTCHEFF >
                           -< National Public Radio >-

    There was a great piece on NPR a couple of Sundays ago, an essay
    [talk?] by a black lesbian.  She discussed at length the problem of
    being a feminist and black; she feels the feminist movement is largely
    white (and racist) and the civil rights movement is largely male (and
    sexist).  Anyone remember her name and/or care to comment?

    
A couple of sundays ago I heard an interview with Audre Lourde (not sure of
the spelling) which might be the same. She was saying that in the past she
did a lot of speaking to white women about racism, but that the time for her
to do that is past, there SHOULD be by now plenty of white women who are
educated about racism who can reach the white audience better than she can.
Her message, if she were to give it, would be "I don't need you to be sorry,
or feel guilty, or to wish you weren't white, or reject what you are, I need
you to accept who you are and where you are and what your priveleges are,
and use your position and your privelege to work for what you think is
right. Because if you are white and priveleged you can speak out in places
where I will never be heard, and that's where your voice is needed."

>    I wanted to *kill* both of them!  Isn't being married a good enough reason
>   ...?

    No, See Note #234.0 

    
         A new conference, BLACKNOTES, has been started on OPHION::.
    It will contain topics of interest to Black DEC employees, but all
    are invited to participate.  If you wish to add the conference,
    press KP7.
    
                              Bubba