Conference turris::womannotes-v1

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Note 201.15                    Once Upon a Dream?                       15 of 16
CSC32::JOHNS                                         28 lines  17-FEB-1987 12:56
                           -< Parisian Experiences >-
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    I, too, had a problem in Paris, although not in the small French
    towns I visited.  I was 17 and travelling with a group of college
    students.  We lived in Paris for a month while studying there, and
    any time that my 17 year old girl friend and myself walked around
    we were constantly harassed in several languages.  We would walk
    straight ahead, not acknowleging the men, just like we had seen
    the French women do.  They ran behind us, the same way they did
    in note .14.  Most of the men that did this were Arabs living in
    Paris.
    
    Perhaps it would be different if you were with a man for 24 hours
    each day.
    
    A story we heard when we arrived in Paris was told to us by a French
    professor who had been there before.  I would have been terribly
    embarrassed to do what she did then, but would do it now in an instant.
    (This actually happened to me in Italy, and instead of doing that,
    I ran through people to my mother.)  The professor was on a crowded 
    bus, and a man very quietly reached over and started stroking her
    crotch.  She reached down, lifted his hand in the air and yelled,
    "Qui a ce main?"  meaning, "who owns this hand?"
    
    The man was terribly embarrassed when the whole busload full of 
    people looked at him.  If I ever experience this again, the man
    had better hope that I take this tactic, because he's going to be
    darn lucky if I don't kill him.
    
                 Carol    

    One of the times I was in Paris I was there with another woman.
    We were both in our early twenties. Although we did not experience
    harassment at quite the level of the previous two noters, we did
    experience more harassment than what we considered normal. Remarks,
    being followed, come-ons, etc. I probably would have been more shaken
    if not for the daylight (which might have been silly of me).
    	Mez

I've heard stories to the contrary.  I would specifically *not* recommend
anyone hitchhiking in Europe any more (I did it for a summer and-a-half
20 years ago).  The reason is that the kids who used to choke all the
highways are now taking the train (using the very cheap Interrail youth
pass).  Many women travel by train alone in Europe.  I only saw one
incident of harrassment, which was pretty minor (guy pestering gal on
an overnight train -- we talked to him and it stopped).

During the winter Olympics in Yugoslavia, a reporter for All Things
Considered asked a local woman (more or less) how she could stand
to live in a repressive country that censors its newspapers.  She
replied that she "could walk on the streets at night," so she had
some freedoms that were lacking in the United States.

Martin.

    My grandmother (Russian) keeps telling me she doesn't understand
    the "feminist revolution."  She says women have always been treated
    equally in Slavic cultures, so what's all the brouhaha?
    
    I always assumed she was too set in her ways to realize the treatment
    women got in her country was as bad as it had been everywhere. 
    Maybe she has a point after all?
    
    Lee

I've been to Russia, and I worked with a bunch of Russian emigrees at
my last job. What I noticed when I was there, and what I was told by
the folks I worked with was that: women in Russia have plenty of
opportunity to get any sort of job they want, as long as they work hard,
and don't ever expect to get on the management ladder. We saw crews
of women working on buildings and streets, under male supervision. 

Anyone else know much about this?
	Mez

    <--(.5,.6)
    
    There is a small but increasingly vocal feminist movement in the USSR
    pointing out that yes, women can get jobs in the Soviet Union that are
    restricted to men in other countries...but the culture still makes
    women take care of all the traditional "women's work" too, which
    makes the touted "equality" a sham:  women are simply forced into
    doing twice as much as men.
    
    And the categories of jobs open (in practice) to soviet women are
    rather like those here:  the low ones in the hierarchy.  The great
    majority of the prestigous postions go, there as here, to men by
    default.
    
    						=maggie
    			          (who used to watch the soviet union 
                                   more closely than they liked)

    re .7
    One example of what Maggie was talking about. In Russia most of
    the doctors are women (a very high prestige job here in America.
    In Russia, however, medicine is considered "women's work" and 
    doctors do not have high status.

  I'm going to generalize a bit here based on my own experiences and the
  stories/attitudes related by my ex-husband.  He is Russian.  He was
  born and raised in Moscow and emigrated when he was 28.  His parents
  emigrated when they were 70, and lived with us during our marriage.
  
  My ex is very chauvinistic.  So were his friends that I was able to
  meet or hear about.  At the time, he told me that there were more women
  doctors in the Soviet Union than in the United States.  But,  he
  emphatically explained, they were not researchers, merely practitioners.
  It's not just doctors.  That's every profession.  Clearly, only those
  who do research have any value and the overwhelming majority of researchers
  are men, so where does that leave women?  They are obviously not as
  intelligent as the men are.
  
  By the way, he wanted me to become a professional.  But, his idea of
  being progressive was that, in addition to taking care of him, his
  parents, the housework, going to school, later taking of two small
  children.  He gave me permission to try!  Needless to say, I bought all of
  this at the time. 
  
  I remember my first business trip very well.  He demanded, "Who's going
  to take care of the children and the house?"  I was shocked.  I never
  mentioned anything when he took his trips!  I patiently explained that
  I expected him to take care of things in all fairness -- after all,
  we were both professionals.  I then received a *long* lecture about
  his profession (he's a mathematics professor who actually does research
  (!)) being so much more important than mine (I am an engineer who just
  takes orders, I don't do research, nothing creative you understand).
  
  It's not that my mother-in-law took sides, actually she took mine, it's
  that she didn't understand at all.  It was his attitude I so strongly
  objected to -- the fact that I had to defend my job against his!
  
  Sorry for the bitter diatribe.  But I don't believe for a moment that
  women on the other side of curtain  are treated better than women are
  treated over here.  I think it's much worse over there.
  
  
  							Terza
  
  

  That was off the topic!  I'm sorry.  I wouldn't be comfortable traveling
  around Europe alone, Russians or no Russians!  :^)
  
  
  							Terza
  
  

    i went to to middle east in 1985 a month after that twa inccident,in
    fact i flew twa. i felt very safe in egypt and isreal,in fact
    statistics say i AM safer in egypt than in boston. egypt has one
    of the lowest crime rates in the world.
    
    
    i went alone and would not have any problem with going back there
    alone.i wish i had the money*sigh*
    
    i think it depends on what i am going on vacation for as to whether
    i would prefer to travel alone. bermuda no,egypt yes.
    
    
    						kelly
    

    RE: .11  "out of the closet"
    
    Suzanne,
    
    When I was your son's age (16) I spent the summer in Scotland and
    England, travelling alone and staying in youth hostels and with
    families of some pen pals that I had corresponded with.  When we're
    young we feel more confidence in such things but as a parent I feel
    the same way (almost).  If my son wanted to take off and wander
    around in foreign lands I would probably threaten to lock him in
    the closet too.  Maybe it's just that we know more of the dangers,
    having been around longer.  Maybe we're just parents.
    
    					Dinny Dimwit

    
    
    I am allowed to bring Greece into the conversation here? If not,
    ignore the rest of this!
    
    This summer I went out to a small island which I know quite well
    haivng been there several times previously. Each year I go there,
    I get less harassment because more and more of the men know me.
    
    I spoke to a greek friend of mine this year and asked him why they
    all stare and whistle and beep and generally embarass (I never could
    spell that word!) foreign women as they do (NB that they never do
    it to their own women).
    
    He replied in all honesty that nothing was meant by it; they were
    simply a warm friendly people. He went on to say that he thought
    the English very cold (how true) - and (get this!) that it was probably
    caused by the cold weather over here1
    
    Anyway, having listened to this guy harping on about warmthand
    friendliness, I decided from henceforth not to just stick my head
    in the air and stalk off, but to smile and nod back and chat to
    the guys.
    
    This really worked and consequently the 'heckling' either stopped
    or perhaps I just didn't notice it, but I tell you, I have never
    had such a good time there before and met so many new people -of
    all nationalities, just by being not cold.
    
    I think that we expect that all strange men who eye us up ( especially
    foreigners) are after you, and I'd just like to say that this isn't
    necessarily true.
    
    Maybe it helped that I was working in a taverna out there and they
    got to know my face, but it really is worthwhile, especially when
    travelling (I was with a girlfriend , both of us are 20) not to
    ignore people but to acknowledge them. It'll either shut them up
    and make them disappear rapid-like, or encourage them to be friendly
    to you back.
    
    And lets face it, when you're travelling abroad, you need all the
    help you can get.
    
    Thanks for reading this
    
    Suzy.

    I vote for .15.  Often something that looks vaguely suspicious is
    just someone trying to be friendly.  I've traveled by myself to
    Denmark, England, and Algeria, and the most trouble of this sort
    that I've ever had traveling was in the Boston subway.
    
    Traveling by yourself is a very good way to meet people who live
    in the country.  Often just opening a map is enough to materialize
    someone helpful.  I suspect that people would not be so likely to
    approach a group of tourists as they are to approach an individual.
    
    Besides, if you go by yourself, you get to do what _you_ want, _when_
    you want to, and so forth.
    
    Of course, none of the above should be taken to mean being foolhardy.