Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    They are not as profound as some of the other notes.
    
    I had the same feeling when the first hair question came up (somewhere
    in the numbers 50-65, I think).  I thought to myself, "damn, this
    is going to trivialize this file".  But as I read the thoughtful
    responses, I began to think that this was a good forum for bringing
    up seemingly trivial (or cosmetic) topics.  If you talk about such
    topics at work, you run a big risk of being patronized by anyone
    within earshot.  After running through suggestions from friends
    and family members, I think it would be helpful to be able to solicit
    input from this community if input was wanted.
    
    The key point for me was "how do you tell a co-worker something 
    difficult and personal that you find offensive?".  That's not trivial
    at all!
    
    And if some useful medical information or folk remedies come out
    of the cold feet discussion, that will seem very valuable, too.
    
    One of the things I like is the way that this noting community can
    take a seemingly trivial topic and respond to it in a useful and
    informative way!  Thanks for not setting those notes to no further
    responses....

    I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it here, Karen.
    I know some people (especially male) are going to think this is
    a flame, but I did notice that the basenote of #136 (the perfume one)
    was entered by a man.  I don't know about note #138 because the author
    did not sign a name nor is entered in either of the introduction notes.
    My guess is that a man entered it.

    My last wish is to discourage men from entering here because we've
    had some great contributions and discussions from and with men.  But
    I do think that this file has a lot of men contributing who are not as
    interested in women's serious concerns as other men are (and women).
    
    It seems like this file is fast becoming not a "women's forum" as
    I would like (I don't know how others feel), but more of a place
    where we end up defending ourselves (*a lot* lately).  This file, as
    I remember, was started as a *safe place* for women.  Any entries on
    what that means to you?
    
    	-Ellen

    I thought that the purpose of this file was not only for a *safe*
    place for woman to interact and share information, but to help 
    in understanding male/female situations.  Some of the *trivial*
    entries have been informative.  I am a person who always wears
    perfume and hadn't thought about the possibility of wearing too
    much.  I am a beautician and wanted to enter some hints to the person
    who wanted some input regarding her hair, but some of the tones of 
    responses regarding trivia backed me off. Cold feet *do* exsist
    and I didn't feel that it was a trivial contribution and thought
    the humor of some of the replies had a lightening effect.  I feel
    that yes, this is a womans forum, and everyone should feel free
    to input responses.  The men who read this file give the impression
    of wanting some understanding and maybe interjecting some male 
    points of view.  There is no harm being done, let them continue
    to respond to this file. Let *any* topic be discussed.  There is
    value in all humans interpretation and if helping the opposite gender
    understand our point of view comes out of this file, it is a success.
    Please, this is *MY* opinion, no flaming.  I enjoy this file because
    of the freedom to enter replies.  Don't limit it to women only.
    
    Vivian
    

    I don't mind the "trivial"issues that come up.  We need to "lighten
    up" once in a while anyway.  Constant intensity can get boring,
    too.  What I do mind is some of the valueless, so-called "humor"
    that some people find necessary to throw in.  Maybe we need a new
    "noter's convention" (like the sideways happy face) that will denote,
    "I'm going to be an asshole now, so ignore what I enter!"
    
    :^)
    
    Sheila
    

Not to worry, Vivian.  This conference will never bar men from responding,
and as long as I'm an assistant mod, any topic with interested parties will
never be discontinued as long as it doesn't get too out of hand.  Like
spears flying and such....

We support moderation in everything, including moderating!

I am soliciting opinions to adjust my own personal headset, to check
the balance of responses, and because I worry that I'm not a good
moderator and maybe I should be doing SOMETHING (like maybe killing
a few topics, banging a few heads, or deleting topics at random :*))
instead of sitting back and letting you folks judge what you want
to deal with and not....

I'm in favor of sitting back.... I'm just insecure is all....

By the way, has ANYONE heard from Maggie?????!!!!!!

This is a Bugsy-note :*)

    These are my views as a human being. Part of my being a human being
    is the fact that I have been a male for more than 50 years, (all
    my life, as a matter of fact) and what I say here is what I personally
    feel and think, bad jokes and all. 
    
    I think the cold hands topic is ridiculously trivial, and I entered
    a note to that effect before I read this note.
    
    The perfume topic does not seem trivial, but addresses some real
    issues. (I'm allergic to most perfumes, so this may have some bearing.
    You can imagine what a handicap this was in high school. AH-CHOO!)
                      
    I am constantly amazed at what appears in this file. In my opinion,
    this is the most interesting, educative, and informative Notes file
    of all. It contains vital discussion on topics of interest to all
    human beings. I feel privileged to read it, and honored to contribute
    to it.
    
    Bruce
    
    
    

    re: .6
    I think you are doing a marvelous job!  I didn't mean to be 
    crabby.  I just got concerned. Please, keep us the good job,
    I enjoy the interaction!!!!! :-)
    
    vivian
    

    I made a slight typo,,,,,,,,  
    
    I *meant* to say:::::::  Keep up the good work!
    
    Vivian
    

    The cold feet/hands note did leave itself open for some humorous
    remarks, but so what. Whats wrong with a little humor. It's also
    one of those notes that although you might find it trivial, after
    you read it you kind of sit back and say "gee, ya know, I've always
    noticed that too."
    
    As for the perfume, I see nothing trivial about it. It's a legit
    issue that offends people. Besides. There isn't enough interaction
    between men and women in the world, and what goes on in this open
    forum is great. I, for one, have learned a great deal and have put
    many things I've read into action in my everyday life.
    
    
    Steve

    Re: .5, l10
    
    I think I should clarify my remark about the humor.  I certainly
    hope we can include humor in this file.  What I meant was the flame-
    inducing, "devil's advocate", "let me enter this to see who's dander
    I can get up" and for-no-other-reason kind of "humor" (that was an
    explanation I got when I sent mail directly to one of those people),
    which is why I added the adjective "so-called".
    
    Hope I haven't gone too far on a tangent.
    
    SM
    

    I'd rather read 10-11 one page notes on cold feet (and other such
    everyday trials and tribulations) than 8-10 novellas from folks that 
    take themselves so seriously that they cannot see when discussion has 
    sunk to name-calling, self-aggrandizement and (usually unsupported) 
    assertion.  People can learn more about each other (and themselves!) 
    in peaceful discussion/comparison of everyday stuff than they can in 
    theorizing about whose suffering is greater.  

    Joanne

    Maggie may want to throw her own 2 cents in :-), but she is alive
    and well and temporarily in read-only mode while she addresses some
    of life's (and Digital's) more cosmic issues!
    
    Holly

Creation of the fear that someone is judging that what you write may
be too trivial would be an excellent way to kill the best qualities of
this conference. 

		Mike

    RE .0 
    
     I am the author of 138, and to clear the air I am a male.
    Let me start off by stating this is NOT a flame, nor is it
    directed to anyone in particular.
    
    The thought behind the entry was one from a two sided value.
    First is the fact that virtually every woman Ive ever shared a 
    special relationship with has had (to the touch) cold hands 
    and feet. This is not to say that they as a person were cold,
    in many cases this was far from the truth. It just interested
    me as a unique phenomenon. Thus the entry.
    
    On the other side, yes the entry was made in a "light hearted "
    manner. It in essence is too much of a fun subject to be 
    (or looked at ) in any other manner. It would appear that most
    of the responders took it in that manner and entered their comments.
    
    Now if it seriously offended someone I hereby apologize, but in
    all honesty I cant imagine why it would. Now there is another
    subject authored by me (balance in a new relationship) that was
    entered as a serious subject. It received a variety of different
    responses of different tones. At this I took no offense, since
    in essence I asked for it since I wanted a female prospective
    on the subject. The same thought , of a female train of thought
    was what I sought on the cold feet note.
    
    Now if you moderators wished to have made this file a serious
    subject / discussion only file, something of that nature should
    have been stated in the opening entrys. It would appear that the
    majority of the responding audience to this note favors an occasional
    touch of humor and a chance to smile.
    
    I have meet and have come to know a few of the ladies in this file
    and I believe that anyone of them can vouch that Iam not some horror
    able anti female ogre. For that matter I really happen to be a
    person very interested in what I refer to as a human nature understudy.
    And to those responders who see no value in the chance to lighten up,
    and have a sense of humor at some occasional humor, you have my sympathy.  
    
    If you as the co-moderator intend to make this a structured serious
    only file Ill bow out now before I get banned (if this entry docent
    do it for me :-) ) thrown out, or write locked. My own personal
    opinion says your loosing a possible valuable contributor, but 
    sorry folk's I do see the value of humor, triviality, and the
    ability to laugh at ones self.
    
    AS John Handcock put it "Ill sign this with my full name for the
    world to see"
                                 Regards
    
                                    Bob Barber  

>    If you as the co-moderator intend to make this a structured serious
>    only file Ill bow out now before I get banned (if this entry docent
>    do it for me :-) ) thrown out, or write locked. My own personal
>    opinion says your loosing a possible valuable contributor, but 
>    sorry folk's I do see the value of humor, triviality, and the
>    ability to laugh at ones self.

Not me, kiddo.  I'm the author of "Should I have traded my husband
in a beer league softball game or not?", and I fully support the lighter
hearted notes as well....

Please don't misunderstand my intent.... I was only polling the Noters out
of my concern for keeping the conference up to Maggie's inimitatable style...
rather awe-inspiring shoes to fill, as most of you will agree.

Personally, I like to avoid notes that involve the discussion of what I
consider fluff topics.... so those notes I do read-only... and everyone's
happy.  I would never impose my personal preference on the conference,
like write-locking anyone or such....  Please be aware that when I said
fluff topics, it was from being a noter like you, not a moderator...

And it looks like the majority of folks enjoy the lighter notes...

Enjoy... Big Sister is nowhere in sight!!
    
And we would be disappointed if you left us, Bob....

Bugs note :*)

I think what we have here is a small clash of cultures. It seems to me that
at the start of November, when ZEPPO::MEN was active, we got a
cross-pollination from a couple of other related conferences, both in
membership and in the nature of the topics that come up, and the fallout has
not settled. This could be a good thing in the long run, but in the short
run I think it means that noters who don't share all the values the
WOMANNOTES community holds dear are making their presence felt. And that
makes it uncomfortable for those of us who liked things the way they were.

This isn't something a moderator can change or even have much influence
over. It goes beyond respecting the rules as stated in 1.*. It has to do
with culture, which means shared values. Not all the members of any
conference share all the same values, but WOMANNOTES certainly embodies a
different set of values than SOAPBOX does for instance, or JOYOFLEX.  

People have a way of figuring out what the culture and style of a NOTES
conference is, and finding their own way to fit in. Otherwise they stop
participating. Some people take longer than others, and some are more
stylistically flexible than others, but sooner or later things seem to work
out.

Topics that are truly trivial have a way of dying out pretty quickly, and
topics that are truly significant have a way of coming up again and again in
many different topics and replies.

I think one of the great values of the non-technical conferences like this
is that we get an opportunity to see how the electronic medium of NOTES
influences the way we function as a community. I think as we are tending to
do more and more of our work through electronic media it becomes more and
more important to understand how people "work" together through electronic
media.

Don.

    I for the most part have enjoyed the balance of discussion in this
    notes file.  Having a forum for discussing daily life issues has
    been extremely valuable -- I think we are all learning from it.
    I have often had  "ME TOO!" reaction to these notes, and am learning
    to be more vocal about that. My concern about this file is that
    we occasionally allow ourselves to be sidetracked by people who
    don't want to share, but rather, who want to anger us. (Thanks to
    those who raise flags about this behavior). 
    
    liz

    Count me with those who wish male-type people would show a
    little more restraint before noting (and be especially slow to
    start topics). The moderators have shown extraordinary generosity
    by allowing us to even read this notesfile, let alone contribute.
    Please, gents, we are guests here. Our hosts (hostesses) have made
    us welcome; it is our responsibility to be gracious and deferential
    in accepting their hospitality.
    		joe
    

    RE: .5  "new convention needed"
    
    
    Here 'tis -
    
    
    
    
                                     (.)
    
    
    
    

Re: < Note 139.17 by EXCELL::SHARP "Don Sharp, Digital Telecommunications" >

> ... I think it means that noters who don't share all the values the
> WOMANNOTES community holds dear are making their presence felt. And that
> makes it uncomfortable for those of us who liked things the way they were.

>People have a way of figuring out what the culture and style of a NOTES
>conference is, and finding their own way to fit in. Otherwise they stop
>participating. Some people take longer than others, and some are more
>stylistically flexible than others, but sooner or later things seem to work
>out.

I've been read-only in this file for several months.  I have to count myself
as one who liked things as they were ... very open, very friendly, non-flaming,
with a dash of humor thrown in.

I agree that the 'culture' of a notesfile affects what new noters feel they
can write into it.  It works both ways, though -- if the culture begins
to change, old participants may be driven out!

In the case of WOMANNOTES, the 'feel' of *new* notes has changed drastically
in the past couple of weeks.  The future 'culture' of this file will be
determined by whether old participants stay around and try to continue the
old tone of the file or whether they give up and leave.

I think that those of us who have enjoyed this file without writing have
a responsibility to *begin writing more* in order to preserve what we've
been enjoying.  I'm going to try, anyway.

Bob

    From my experience with mens and womens groups, more seems to get
    done when the opposite sex is denied access.
    
      Mikie

    Cold feet didn't seem trivial to me.
    
    That was one of my ex-husband's complaints about me.  There isn't
    much I could do about it.

    - 1     I agree with Bob in that, I as a man am a guest in 
            this file. I have a tendency to believe myself to be
            a intelligent and learned person thru all of the inputs
            and experiences Ive been through kicking (and being kicked)
            around this world over the last 39 years.
    
            Does this mean I know it all, hell no, life itself is
            one of the constant learning experiences we all go through.
            Probably the most important things my father told me was
            "that life is the worlds best, but most brutal teacher ". 
            Since I was brought up in a male orientated world (at the
            time) I now know better that women are not a lesser person
            because they are female.
    
            The main reason Ive become involved in this file is simply
            that Iam not always right. I sometimes slip into that male
            dominated noise mode of thinking that I was brought up with.
            If I was that good at always understanding people then why
            have I had the problems that Ive had in the relations Ive
            been involved in. Iam here because I wish to better understand
            a womans perspective on a variety of different subjects.
    
           Hopefully this will help me to be a more rounded person.
           To maybe make some new friends and better handle things
           in future relations. Sure some of the questions I may 
           get blasted on but then again just like the old Skippy
           peanut show  " You ( I ) asked for it.    :-)
    
                                    Bob B 
            

    I also enjoy the humorous and sometimes trivial notes. One of the
    reasons I never felt I could be a "feminist" was their hardline
    towards humor. Certainly humor and triviality can be used as weapons
    but I doubt that is the intention of the noters in this file.
    
    I also feel that the male presence keeps us from turning this notes
    file into a bitch session that feeds on itself. Sometimes when people
    make gross generalities they need to be reminded that exceptions
    do exist. Anything that makes us examine ourselves and our attitudes
    is beneficial.
    
    To quote Grace Hopper "A ship is safe in the harbor but thats not
    what it's made for", we need a notes file that makes us think not
    one that is "safe". Liesl

    re .27
    
    > I also feel that the male presence keeps us from turning this
    > notes file into a bitch session that feeds on itself.
    
    Can you explain this statement please?
    
    					Karen.

    re .28 What I was refering to was the tendancy of a group of persons
    (doesn't have to be male or female) to start on a subject and get
    carried away. The most common would be the work related bitch session
    where everyone gets together and starts slicing the boss or the
    company and pretty soon people start convincing themsleves that
    everything or everybody is terrible to them. It always helps to
    have someone with a different point of view than the group. This
    does not mean the group may not have a reason to be unhappy but
    it can help to keep it in perspective. There is some value to positive
    thinking and not always dwelling on the negative. Lets face it,
    we are the elite of the world when it comes to problems. We have
    food every day and a place to sleep and a job. There are inequalities
    between men and women and I resent some of them greatly but overall
    my life is pretty good and I'd rather not forget that. Liesl      
    

    What is trivial to some helps me understand how others think and
    relate in an already over-complicated world. After all, I am here
    to learn more about the female side of life and the cold hands issue
    may help me out someday, don't know how but...
    
    Tom