Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Insight = "Love is versed but means more to me when it is shown"
     In other words, actions speak louder than words.
    
    Opinion = You both may love each other but you may need him more
    for physical expression of love and he may not need that from you.
    
    Advice = tell him how you feel but more importantly, SHOW him how
    you feel.
    
    Cathy (who dealt with this at the beginning of the relationship.
     I never liked affection but now I thrive on it)
                              

    You know how I feel!
    
    I have made it known how I feel, but I refuse to "nag" him.  I feel
    like I shouldn't have to.  Battles that are won by nagging are hollow
    victories. I DO need more physical expression from him, not sexually,
    but just gestures that express his feelings toward me.
    The funny thing about this is though he doesn't show ME because
    "his family isn't like that" and he feels like I should "know by
    now", but he absolutely thrives on the displays of affection that
    I show him.  Maybe he's afraid it isn't masculine or something.
    On second thought, he's not really all that concerned with the 'macho'
    image.  I just don't know.
    
    Stacie

    Stacie,
    
    Have you actually talked to him about this?  Have you told him how
    you feel and what you need?  Have you asked him how he feels and
    why?  His comment that "you should know me by now" caught my attention
    the most.  That comment is reflective of a common misconception:
    mind reading.  No matter how close a couple is, no one is so close
    that he/she knows exactly how the other thinks/feels/wants etc.

    His past upbringing is no excuse, though.  If he knows how you feel
    and what you need, this could be a sign of trouble.  If this continues,
    seek counseling!

    I hope it works out.   

    Carol

	I agree that first of all you have to talk with him (if you haven't)
	about how you feel and ask him if he could try.  Then don't
	expect too much at once.  I think one thing that might help is
	to reward him when he does express affection.  Tell him how
	much you liked it that time he put his arm around you at the
	company picnic.  If you tell him what things he does that you like,
	he will realize how much you like it and will probably do it
	more often.  Watch for the little things he does and let him
	know you appreciate it.  And don't stop being affectionate to him.
	It's catching.

	I hope it works out.

	...Karen

    I had the same problem with my husband when we were dating.  I found
    that by telling him that I needed more physical signs of affection
    like holding hands and hugging, it brought the issue out into the
    open.  However, I also found that it didn't really sink in.  What
    finally worked was to initiate these things and to notice when he
    did show some affection and make it clear that I enjoyed that. 
    One thing that worked well that still works is that we always liked
    to cuddle on the couch, so I called this the "Official Cuddle".
     Then, I could say "Official cuddle position please" and he would
    make room for me on the couch and we would cuddle.  Through the
    years, he has managed to learn to actually like being close  and
    now he does show affection in public, though it did take time, and
    I still could go for more, but that's because I am accustomed to
    lots of hugs and kisses from my family, so that's sort of what I
    expect.
    
    Just give him some time and some positive reinforcement.  Eventually,
    he might even learn to like it like my husband did, and he may be
    more at ease with signs of affection.
    
    Cathy

    er: .0
    
    Well, I as going to suggest that you show him what you wrote in
    .0, but Kathy stated  a much better way.
    
    Apparently Kathys beau seems to have had the same sort of upbringing 
    I had (more/less), but over time, a couple of valuable relationships,
    I learned that *some* women require more attention than others.

    And, even though I grew up as a 'loner', and learned to cope
    as a 'loner'; there is precious little place for a 'loner' with
    an exceptionally affectionate woman.
    
    Fortunatly, when I need 'space' , she tries to understand, and backs
    off. But when she needs that closeness, its time to get close.
    
    Hopefully, since both needs are mutually exclusive, they won't occur
    at the same time. :^)
    
    Bob+3

    

re .5 (Cathy G.) and the Official Cuddle Position:

When Bill and I are doing things separately around the house, sometimes I'll
go over to him and call for a Cuddle Break.

Of course, I use some discretion,  since cuddling with a soldering iron or
electric drill isn't as much fun. :-)

re .0 and the original problem:

Fortunately, I don't have any problem getting my fair share of affection;
Bill has sometimes asked if he gives me too much (never!!).  I do think the
ideas expressed previously are good; making sure he realizes how you feel,
continuing to show affection to him (yes, it's contagious, and may become
more second nature to him), and letting him know when he's giving you what
you need.  Prompts of "Cuddle Break" or "assume the official Cuddle Position"
might even work :-)

Jill

    WOW does this hit home!
    
    I too went out with someone who at first was loving and affectionate.
    Then, as time passed by, the affection drifted away.  He blamed
    it on his past, since his family wasn't into touching.  Still, I
    needed my hand held, and all the nice little romantic things. More
    and more we became like brother and sister.  Near the end, I was
    asking for a kiss goodnight, which I gave up asking, since it 
    didn't carry the same meaning anymore.  I decided to move on
    rather than stick with the relationship.  However, Stacie, you
    sound like you have a great relationship and this is a little 
    bug that you can work out.  Don't let the romance die.  
    
    

    RE: .0 It sounds like you SO comes from a family much like the
    one I come from. Your complaint sounds a lot like one my wife
    might make to.
    
    I try hard to hold up my side in the deal but it's hard. Mainly
    because we value different things differently. Different ways of
    displaying affection affect us differently. For example, flowers
    and random other nice little things mean a lot to my wife but not
    so much to me. I try to do these things but it's hard unless I
    think real hard about it. It's not a natural thing to me. I could
    use more hugs then I get but hugging is not as major a way to show
    affection in my wife's family. In my family it is a VERY big deal.
    One hug from my father on arrival and an other on departure from
    a visit will carry me for weeks because of how much it expresses.
    In my wife's family they hug a little more but it means a lot less.
    Or I should say, hugs appear to mean less because of how they're
    done. Gentle things with arms not going all around. Yuck, what kind
    of a hug is that for someone you love? It may look different to
    my wife maybe I'll ask her.

    An other thing I've noticed (and one reply here relates) is that
    many women are a lot bigger on actions to show love then men are.
    The way this gets interpreted by many men is "prove that you love
    me." This is a sure fire way to make a man defensive as it attacks
    his credibility. I know I'd rather hear my wife say she loves me
    then "prove" it thorough gifts or tickle attacks or random physical
    things. When a man says he loves someone she can either take him
    at his word without demands for actions or you can accuse him of
    being a liar. The demand for proof says "Liar!" 
    
    The thing to do is understand what an action on the part of your
    SO means to him. (As a start anyway.) If saying he loves you out
    of the blue is a big deal to him (as it is too me) then try to 
    appreciate that a big deal is being done. Also find out what is
    a big deal to him when you do it. It's possible that you are doing
    things that are little deals to him and yet big to you. (And the
    other way around). Above all talk about what actions mean what to
    who so that you both know what the other wants. If you talk only
    about what you want you'll both get short changed. He may have
    needs that aren't being met too and not be able to put his finger
    on them as well as you have identified your needs.
    
    This way you'll also learn to appreciate the other for what they're
    trying to do as you both work toward giving each other what the
    other wants.
    
    			Alfred

    .9 When people want you to prove your love as you put it -
    they aren't calling you a liar, but admitting their own
    need.

    
    	In my case I have no problem showing affection, that is unless
    it's in public. I love to hold hands, cuddle, kiss, etc., but only
    at home and never in public. Don't ask me why as I don't know, I
    just know I get very uncomfortable.

    I just don't know what to do about this.  Believe me, we HAVE talked
    about it.  I've tried being reasonable, everything.  It's getting
    to be such a big deal, mainly because it's one of our only
    incompatibilities.  If you have an otherwise excellent relationship,
    that one little "flaw" seems like it's staring you in the face all
    the time.  I think I am making too much of it, but it really bothers
    me.  I have tried to "set the example" for so long, as well as
    encouraging him when he makes me happy, but it all seems to pass
    him by.  It's gotten to the point where I am beginning to have
    reservations toward showing him affection because I get so
    "disappointed" when he doesn't reciprocate.  I don't know what is
    happening here.  I have actually entertained thoughts of ending
    the relationship over this matter.  He knows how I feel, he knows
    I have a need that is not being fulfilled, and though he says he
    is "trying" it just seems like never enough for me.  Maybe I'm getting
    unreasonable about this, I don't know.  I feel like I'm missing
    something in this respect-something essential.
    
    Stacie

    re .11
    
    Regarding showing affection in public, the reason a lot of people
    dislike it is because they equate physical affection with sexuality.
    
    Which reminds me of my (current) least favorite commercial.  I don't
    know the product, just to the punchline.  These two adorable kids
    are "playing house" and at the end the boy kisses the girl on the
    cheek and she exclaims "Not in front of the children!"
    
    Gawd!  I hate the thought of children being taught that affection
    is something that only happens in private, even within the confines
    of the family.
    
    G

    I don't know if this helps, but I have heard it said that people
    tend to show their affection for another in essentially 5 ways:
    
          1. Words
          2. Gifts
          3. Service
          4. Physical
          5. Time
    
    Very often the two people's "normal" method of giving/receiving
    affection don't fall in the same category.  This can become a sticky
    spot in the relationship.  This model may help you more effectively
    communicate your position and resolve the problem.
    
    Tom

    re: .12 -
    
    Stacie, 
    
    I'll confess what *first* came to my mind when I first read your 
    notes: insecurity.  Perhaps you need to look to yourself for the 
    source of the problem.  You're not getting enough of something and
    you need to know why.  A friend let me borrow a book that helped
    me *a lot.*  It's called "How to Break An Addiction to a Person"
    by Dr. Howard M. Halpern.  It's published by Bantam Books.
    
    The general attitude about love is there are two people who fill
    something that is missing in each other.  My soul-mate and I do
    *not* believe this.  We believe that we are two complete people
    who have joined to become "us" - not because we *need* to, but 
    because we *want* to.  "Need", especially in this case, implies
    a lack of choice or will.
    
    Carol
    

    In reading through all these replies, I've gotten to wondering if
    I'm an anomoly among men.
    
    I don't think that I come from a family that spends a lot of time
    displaying affection (though I can count on a kiss from my mother when
    I visit), but I enjoy very much holding hands, cuddling and kissing.  I
    don't care if it's in a private place or public.
    
    Rich

    RE. 16
    
    No. you are not an anomaly amongst men, or maybe my husband is also
    one! He is very, very cuddly at absolutely anytime, and I am the
    one who tends to ask for a little breathing space once in a while.
    
    RE. 0 & others
    
    Try (and I know it's difficult) not to attach too much importance
    to it. Or at least try it for while, and see if it get's better.
    He could just be withdrawing in a sort of sub-conscious reaction.
    If your relationship is really very good for both of you, maybe you
    can "take him the way he is" as he may very well be "taking you
    the way you are". That's what my husband and I have done and recog-
    nizing that we have different ways of expressing our love has helped
    us reach a great "togetherness".
    
    Sorry if I sound preachy, but I guess my English is always a bit
    stilted ...
    
    Wish you luck.     Joana

    I forget all the numbers to "Re: to", but I do agree that I am insecure
    about this.  The thing is, I never felt this insecurity in any other
    relationship, romantic or otherwise.  I do a lot of reading, and
    even here in notes, I feel like I am less insecure than most people.
    My peers all view me as a very strong person, which I like to think
    I am, I get it from my mother.  I love this guy more than I ever
    imagined I could love anyone, and I really think we "have what it
    takes" to make it.  It feels very natural, and "right."
    But I DO have this need and it hurts when he doesn't take it seriously.
    We talked last night, again, and I'm crossing my fingers.  He has
    told me that he doesn't WANT to be like his parents, but if he's
    not paying attention, it just happens.
    
    And...after some deliberation, I have decided that I don't think
    I am 'addicted' to this relationship, just that I see it's potential
    and I want so very much for it to work.  I don't think at my age
    you see many relationships that you could realistically picture
    yourself growing old and gray in.  It really has a "permanent feel"
    to it.  Even if I'm not all that happy at this moment, I do know
    that our problem isn't "non-negotiable" (thx. Alison) and I can
    see a lot of happiness in it in the future.  That warm feeling,
    you know?  I just need a little reassurance right now.
    
    Stacie

    
    	You "love him more than you could've imagined"...
    
    		You're young ("at my age")
    
    			You're feeling "this insecurity"...
    
    Nothing out of place that I can see! If you would take some advice
    from an "elder" remember; "the heart has it's seasons" - Given time,
    He'll come around...definately! The worst thing you could do would
    be to "force" immediacy upon the issue, I think.
    
    Even the most autonomous of creatures, my cat (Mr Jinx) will be
    very affectionate - in his own time. I've no chance when it's
    convienent for me "C'mere kitty! Lets sit together" (sound of
    claws digging into the furniture...) but, he'll pick Saturday
    morning, when I'm real busy with 10 different things, to say
    "I want you".
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    I wouldn't be looking for immediacy if I hadn't waited so long already.
    I have already done what you have suggested.  I have made my feelings
    known and sat back and waited.  For months.  I have given him a
    little more gentle prodding and encouraged him more than usual over
    the past few, just to make sure he's getting the message.  Now,
    I find myself "settling" for behaviors that I wouldn't have considered
    all that great before.
    I'm really getting at the end of my rope with this, that's why the
    demand for results.  I don't want to change his "life" overnight,
    but all I need is a little visible effort to keep me encouraged.
    We talked last night and he knows it's do or die at this point,
    so let's see what happens.  He knows the stakes, if he tries, i'll
    be thrilled, if he doesn't he's not worth it.  It's so hard for
    me to talk about him so detachedly, but I am tired of crying about
    it and I have to face up to the facts if I want to maintain my self
    respect.
    
    Stacie

    Stacie,
    
    Is it possible that what you're really asking for is reassurance
    that your sweetie can imagine growing gray with you? In other words,
    now that you've decided that this guy is a potential long-termer,
    are you needing him to let you know he feels the same way? (That's
    a scary thing to ask for).
    
    Also, someone mentioned "seasons". it's helpful for me to remember
    that i don't always need at the same level of intensity. and when
    i'm unhappy about a part of my relationship (or the whole thing),
    it helps to remember that i don't ALWAYS feel that way.
    
    let us know how things go.
    liz

    RE .21 Good luck, Stacie. 

This is how I feel.

For me, physical expression of affection is absolutely necessary
between my husband and I.  It is necessary for me to survive.
Part of me whithers up and dies without physical contact.  I've
been in relationships in the past with minimal to no physical 
contact, so I know how I react from experience.  A relationship
is not whole and viable for me without a lot of physical expression
of affection.

For me it is not a case of needing affirmation that the relationship 
is there, or of feeling insecure.  I simply need physical contact.

I am surprized to find that this is not the case with many other people.
I am not devaluing anyone.  I am merely expressing surprize.  Whatever
works for you all is fine.

Please help me to understand why physical contact is not as important to
some of you as other things. 

Also, are there other people out there who need to be touched?

alison

    yes Alison, I agree with you completely.

    re .25
    yes! i need touching, too. i need more when i'm feeling unloved
    or unwanted or generally blue. and when my partner doesn't touch
    first, it's better to ask for it than to frantically crave it.
    although i still like a lot of touching, it's a little less critical 
    than it used to be -- probably a sign that my life is slowly improving.
    
    liz

    I feel for you Stacie.  This must be terrible for you.  But, if
    I may share one thing with you, it would be this.  The good ole
    Serenity prayer.  It works for most (if not all) situations:
    
    	God grant me the Serenity to Accept the things I cannot change,
    	To Change the things I can,
    	And the Wisdom to know the difference.
    
    I know these are just words to you, but accept their meaning for
    just a moment.  Think about them.  We've (fellow noters in WOMANNOTES)
    have discussed how much or how often or how little we try to change
    the man/woman we love.  When I first met George, I tried to change
    certain things about him (clothes, the cologne he wore, the way
    he ate certain foods and how he used to chew ice in my ear) and
    yes, this drove me bananas.  But quess what?  Everything else about
    him was wonderful and these THINGS didn't matter after awhile. 
    I told him this later on and we laugh.
    
    Relating to the topic at hand, plenty of people in this file have
    already advised you.  There's some good stuff in here.  I'm really
    listening today and have learned alot.  *I* hated affection because
    anytime I got some (while growing up), I used to think that I had
    to "give" something in return (my dolls, my candy, and when I got
    older, my body).  After 3 years of counseling, I've learned that
    maybe, just maybe, someone loved me for ME and not for what I had
    or what I could give them.  That stemmed from my inability to trust
    another human being.  I trust now, but not as well as I could. 
    I'm workind that issue.
    
    But Stacie, I learned to love, and hug and more importantly, BE HUGGED.
    Who knows, maybe your SO doesn't want to because he doesn't know
    how to (accept it from you).  He might have some private issues
    he's not willing to throw into the relationship for fear you might
    think something badly of him.  Now you can't go guessing and you
    can't go changing.  If "he" has the problem with hugging (which
    *I* did), he has to want to change himself.  And more coercion on
    your part will definately put him out of the picture.  I don't want
    that to happen to you.  As I didn't want my insecurity to drive
    George away from me.  
    
    Now, I accept it and *I'm* hugging more.  Even George's parents,
    who aren't my in-laws yet, but I feel their warmth each time.  So,
    I give it back.
    
    You are a giving person Stacie.  You want to be appreciated.  You
    can see love in different ways (as someone stated).  But if you
    need physical touching more and your SO is not "ready" to give to
    you for whatever reason, maybe you need a "Stacie" break to sort
    things out.  Take some time to hug yourself for a change.  Everyone
    needs to do that.  It feels good to just wrap your arms around
    yourself, squeeze for a few minutes, let go and say, "I love me!" 
    
    Cathy (a friend)

    I am happy to report we just had a wonderful weekend, and he was
    a new person!
    Just let it last!!!
    
    Stacie

    
    I hate to say anything at this point since .29 seems to indicate
    that the problem has disappeared, but I just read this note now
    and was quite intrigued by it since the exact situation was described
    in a book I read recently called "That's not what I meant" by Dr. 
    Deborah Tannen.
    
    She considers this an instance of what is technically called
    'complimentary schismogenesis'.  An example of this would be if
    two people are conversing at different levels of volume.  It has
    been shown that in this situation frequently the person who is speaking
    louder tend to increase his/her volume as an indirect way of saying
    "Speak up so I can here you" and the person who is speaking more
    softly will decrease his/her volume as a way of saying "The whole
    world doesn't have to hear our conversation".  Therefore, the
    difference in their levels of volume increases instead of decreasing
    as might be expected.
    
    Tannen applies this same principle to different levels in display
    of affection.  The partner who is accustomed to less affection in
    a relationship will feel that there is enough (or even too much)
    affection in the relationship and reciprocating it will only encourage
    the other partner to display even more affection.  The other partner
    feels that there is not enough and that the only way to get the
    other the respond is to display more affection in the hope that
    it will catch on.
    
    I don't know whether this is what is happening in .0's situation
    or not but I thought it was an interesting approach in that the
    remedy is exactly the opposite the intuitive solution which has
    been given in many of the replies (display less, not more affection).
    
    Whether or not you agree with the particular concept above, I strongly
    recommend the book (Ballantine Books, 1986; ISBN 0-345-34090-6)
    to anyone who has ever experienced communication problems (for those
    who have not there is a book on honesty I could recommend ...).
    
    John_who_feels_a_bit_strange_writing_in_a_female_notes_file