Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    It certainly has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that
    it's really too bad I'm straight.  None of my women friends have
    the bent brains that even some of the otherwise nicest men have.
    
    Has anyone else had the chilling experience of knowing a man for
    years, thinking he's unbiased, and then one day having him say
    something incredibly sexist, and he doesn't even realize it is,
    even when you talk about it?
    
    I am also constantly amazed at how women stay with men who do real
    numbers on them.  Throw the bum out, I always want to say.  Think
    how much happier you'll be without all that aggravation.
                                

    re:619.1 
    
    Sometimes it is easier to say "throw the bum out" that actually
    doing it. I agree that we do put up with alot and can not tell you
    why because I am doing the same thing!!

re .0:
    Justine, Thanks for the present.
    
    The women's movement seems so amorphous that it's hard to say if
    there's a split. I assume that it's like any other human thing:
    some people are accepting of differences and others aren't. If
    the women's movement is split across some lines, I suspect that
    the real reason is not one of the "excuses" that you listed.
    
    I have different reactions to piggish men, depending on my mood, my
    relationship to them, and the worthwhileness of talking to them.
    Sometimes I just chuckle to myself "thank goodness I don't have to live
    with him". But when I encounter a piggish man, it doesn't make me feel
    like I have to get away from ALL men. on the other hand, I do enjoy
    womanspace. 
    
    I don't know if it's that tough to be a "straight feminist". That's
    who I am right now. and right now, i'm saving my struggling energy
    for other parts of my life. 
    
    it's not a matter of enduring "sexist 'attitudes' and behavior" just
    while "looking" for the right man. i endure it every day just by going
    shopping, coming to work, and talking to people at the lunchtable.
    perhaps you're asking what other strategies women use to make their
    life seem saner.
    
    as for finding a "good guy", can't we expand your question and ask
    about finding a "good mate"? a relationship happens gradually. i
    don't open myself up for "enduring" crap all at once, and i expect
    that you don't either. in other words, there are many types of
    behaviors that i would find unacceptable in a mate. sexism directed
    at me is only one example.
    
    admittedly, when i first met robert, he wasn't as much of a feminist as
    he now seems to be. but he did have tremendous respect for me. (and
    that was most important to me). i didn't set out to change him, but
    i have noticed that as we've discussed women's issues, his attitude has
    slowly migrated towards mine. but then again, i don't expect to
    agree with my mate about everything, even on issues that are important
    to me.
    
    
re .1:
    i don't think the gender of one's mate guarantees the treatment
    one will receive. one friend had violent women lovers and 
    gentle men lovers. her experience, however, is probably an exception
    to the rule.
    

    Back to justine, you imply that all lesbians are feminists. Is this
    the case?
    
    
    Liz

    
    
    I find it difficult being around "Feminist" who are not woman centered.
    There seems to be a growing process that takes place with female
    "Feminst" that involves acceptance of Lesbians, then a kind of awe
    of the fact that these women don't need men to feel fulfilled. 
    I think that a number of woman who are not Lesbians but who are
    very woman centered in their lives are the ones that face a more
    difficult time as a feminist.  
    
    Just my thoughts for now.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |	And she brought forth a bright light.
    
    

    There are times when I find that people of both sexes dene
    grate women's issues as being 'lesbian' and use it as a 'put 
    down'. For example...I am very proud to have gone to the first
    college for women founded in the United States..Mount Holyoke.
    My Alma Mater has proudly continued to remain a womans college...
    (partiallly because even today, a higher percent of women from
    women only colleges go on to higher degrees and to advanced
    positions in industry etc...) but they are now suffering in
    enrollment...because young women think that it must be a lesbian
    school...
    
    so why must a women's only college be only for women who are not
    attracted to men? and why must being a lesbian be a perjoritive?
    
    it seems to me that this is a bit of a double bind according
    to the definitions of the world outside...
    
    I've been a feminist since the fall of 1962 when I first discovered
    that I was free to express my self intellectually without any male
    put downs...when I entered my fall classes at MHC....it was a totally
    liberating experience!
    
    and it pains me that young women today do not have the chances that
    my generation had to learn to grow and be independant intellectually.
    
    Do you know that even today...it is still the women from women's
    colleges who speak out in class in grad school...on the majority?
    
    My son's women classmates tho, are very feminist and agressive...
    
    they won't let the expression freshman be used...they are all
    'frosh'...and when I refered to him dating a 'girl' he said
    he would 'report me to womannotes' for my sexist comments...:-)
    
    So if the freshpersons at Wesleyan are any example, maybe we don't
    need the Mt Holyokes and equivalents any more...but I would hate
    to give them up ...just in case.

    
    But - to return to the oringinal subject - I think that it is 
    important for straight women not to let 'lesbian' be used as
    a weapon against them...but rather to embrace our lesbian sisters
    as our friends and as people who share with us common problems
    and common goals.
    
    and I would also ask my lesbian friends to understand, as I think
    most of those who write here do, that I and other women like me
    will always find that men are more important in our life than they
    are to our lesbian sisters, and to understand that we can be supportive
    of both without betraying one group or the other. There are far
    more dimensions to people than their sexual orientation...*for
    heavens sake* ! :-)

    
    Bonnie

    
    Liz,  I didn't mean to imply that all lesbians are feminist or that
    sexisim is the only behavior that any of us wishes to avoid in a
    partner.  I was trying to get at some of the differences in our
    experiences, however.  I think the difference in sexual
    orientation is only part of it; I feel that I have a different
    cultural experience from my non-lesbian sisters.  Some of that
    gets expressed in terms of social status, for example, the right
    to culturally sanctioned marriage, the right to adopt children,
    but I suspect that there are many less tangible differences that
    exist because a lesbian feminist's world is likely to be more
    woman-centered than a non-lebian feminist's world.  (Is that a
    valid assumption?)
    
    Bonnie,  toward the end of your reply (.5), I felt you really got
    at some of the conflict that exists between lesbians and non-lesbians.
    (forgive the awkward language, but I'm trying to avoid the words,
    "straight" and "gay".)  Do non-lesbian feminists ever feel the need
    to defend their devotion to the cause?  I worry about this. I often
    find non-lesbian friends of mine almost apologizing for sleeping
    with men.  It always makes me sad to see an oppressed group turning
    around and harshly judging another group.  Do we (lesbians and
    non-lesbians) do that to each other?  Can we bridge that gap?
    
    In sisterhood,
    
    Justine
                      

    For us, it seems that the main thing that brings us together with
    folks or separates us is education.  We get along much better with
    straight, educated friends then with lesbian (or gay male) non-educated
    friends.  Unfortunately, this means that since other educated lesbians
    are often hard to find (hidden away in their closets) that when
    we DO want to get together with people who have suffered the same
    types of discrimination then we cannot find them and we end up talking
    with our straight friends who often can only barely understand.
    
    Still, we have found that our straight friends limit us less also,
    since they themselves have not been taught "not to" (not to get
    married, not to have children, not to hold hands, etc).  When we
    had our wedding ceremony last year, it was our straight friends
    who helped us the most, threw us a shower, decorated, kept us sane.
    :-)  Now if we could only get more gay friends like our straight
    friends... 
                     Carol

    Hi, Carol!
    
    I'm glad you and Shellie have Non-Gay-and-Lesbian (non-GL)
    friends that are supportive, but I think it's sad that you feel
    less connected to other lesbians?  Is that a result of the education
    issue that you mentioned, or is the lesbian community less visible
    there than it is on the Coast(s)?  Or do you think it's because the 
    lesbians you know are not supportive of your decision to have a baby?  
    I guess I'd like to think that lesbians are especially tolerant and 
    supportive of individual choice not because we're morally superior but 
    because we've experienced such a lack of support around our life choices?
                                                           
    Maybe I've just been exceptionally lucky; I have lots of women friends
    (both lesbian and non-lesbian) with whom I have lots of different
    things in common.  When I first came out, my (then) lover and I were 
    pretty isolated from the community.  Most of our friends were
    straight, and we felt we had very little in common with other
    lesbians.  At some point it dawned on me that the only place I ever
    met any other lesbians was in bars:  not the best environment for
    striking up a serious conversation.  Getting involved in professional 
    and political groups has been a big help in meeting people with
    similar interests, and I usually find that many (though not all)
    of the people with whom I get along well are lesbian and gay.
                                                               
    Justine
                                 
    Justine

    Justine, 
    
    I'm really not _trying_ to be dense. are you asking if n.l. women feel
    that they must compromise on feminism more often? as for your question
    to bonnie, i haven't yet felt a need to "defend my devotion to the
    cause", but i have worried about intruding in space that i don't
    "rightfully" belong in. and maybe it comes out sounding the same. when
    i get past my own reserve, i don't feel much of a gap, but it sounds
    like you might. could you write a bit more about it? 
    
    Liz

    Justine, it IS the education issue.  You had asked about culture,
    and we have found that education is more important to us than
    sexuality.
    
    The reason that we don't have many lesbians to choose from, is because
    this city has a "small-town" atmosphere, and there are not many
    groups available.  People meet through mutual friends, and that
    takes time.  Most of the educated lesbians I have met or heard of
    around here are in education, nursing, or the military.  Unfortunately,
    this also means that they tend to be more closeted, hence harder
    to meet.  We are considered a threat to them, since we are not as 
    closeted as they are.
    
    Incidentally, I am truly sorry that some non-gay feminists might
    feel like they need to defend themselves.  I, for one, couldn't
    care less who they live with (or would like to live with).  It is
    far more important that we work together for equality.
    
                     Carol

    This reply is from a member of our community who wishes to
    remain anonymous.
    ===========================================================
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Yes, there does seem to be a split between the lesbian feminists
    and the straight feminists.  I have a particularly tough time with
    this since as a bisexual woman I am in both communities, yet in
    neither.
    
    The word lesbian has a pejorative meaning to the straight women.
    There seems to be a fear that they may be mistaken for a lesbian.
    Many prefer not to associate with known lesbians - they seem to
    think that loving another woman is somehow strange.
    
    The lesbians tend to be more woman-centered, and, I believe, more
    feminist.  They have discovered that you can be happy and fulfilled
    without any serious interaction with men.  Many don't seem to
    understand women that do want to share their lives with men.  This
    is true to a high enough degree, that although I am on the lesbian
    side of bi, I have a hard time with much of the lesbian community.
    This often makes me very alone.  Who do I talk to when my female
    lover leaves me for a man?  No one understands or cares to understand
    this feeling. 
    
    I think this is sad.  I have a lot in common with both sides of
    the women's issue.  I see some need to have separate groups as there
    are some issues that effect one group and not the other.  I think
    both groups should make an effort to be more understanding and
    accepting of the other group.  We are all fighting for many of the
    same issues - we should work together.
    
    She-who-signs-herself-Gina
    

    I think the major area of disagreement in the women's movement is
    strategy - not class, race, or sexuality. i.e.  Do we go with a radical 
    (demonstrations, march on washington, boycotts, etc.) or
    conservative (lobbying, working with "the system", etc) strategy?
    This is not, however, to say conflict does not arise 
    within the movement due to class, race, sexuality, and educational issues.
    
    A feminist is a feminist (period). 
    
    - Mary
    

Note 619.11 anonymous

>    The word lesbian has a pejorative meaning to the straight women.
>    ... Many prefer not to associate with known lesbians - they seem 
>    to think that loving another woman is somehow strange.

I think the feelings ascribed to the straight woman may be true of
women who have lived in limited circles.  I felt that way at 17, but after
knowing ... ummmm ... 40 to 50 women who are lesbians, those feelings have
just gone away -- like my childhood fear of atheists.

Come to think about it, though, I may have met thousands of lesbians without 
knowing it.  When I describe a friend or acquaintance who is a lesbian to 
another person, I never mention that my friend is a lesbian -- the fact 
might somehow cause problems for her.  Perhaps a lot of people do the same.

Oddly, at gatherings and parties I often find people I especially enjoyed 
meeting were lesbian.  Am I responding to the 'woman centeredness'  
of their world view?  Some of my friends have the same response, but we 
don't why.                       Meigs

    I don't see a lesbian/straight fracture in the woman's movement.
    
    However, I do see that lesbians are attacked in conjunction with
    the women's movement and that lesbians are somehow made to be
    the "bad part of the women's movement".
    
    I try to think in non-labeling terms but I would define myself
    as a straight feminist. Maybe straight is the wrong term too
    as that implies rightness.
    
    I have often been accused of being a lesbian by men. Part of this
    comes because I am a very strong feminist who has worked in 
    mostly male enviornments for years. It is always used as a putdown
    by men-never women, and always as a slur against my character when
    they (men) cannot refute the logic of my arguements.
    
    I count some lesbians among my friends but I think of them as
    friends-all different individuals.
    
    I profess I find it easier to talk with women period about some
    things. 
    
    I have been sans man a long time now and am not even looking. I
    guess it is not a priority for me. I do miss sometime the lack
    of another adult human to communicate with on an intimate basis
    as one tends not to overuse friends as you can a S/O when you 
    are having a bad time. 
    
    I must admit my cats could probably tell a lot if they could
    talk. (Yep I talk to my cats!)
    
    I don't think one should have to give reasons for their sexual
    orientation anymore than they do for their favorite author,artist,
    or whatever.
    
    I am concerned though that the lesbians are being represented
    as being either the "main content" or the "worst example" of
    the feminist movement. That is both unfair to lesbians and to
    "straight" women. (The more I write straight the more wrong that
    sounds.)
    
    Since homosexuality is to a large degree still tabu in our society
    that is a good way to discredit the women's movement.
    
    
    

    This is a really ignorant question, but are there *any* non-feminist
    lesbians?
    
    
    By the way, I've seen both men and women call non-men-centered women
    "lesbians".  Lately I've seen it more as a dismissal than a slur:
    'Oh, we can ignore her contribution, since she's a lesbian'.  To
    some people, labelling someone as a minority lets them out of the
    mainstream (therefore they're invalid, or only entertaining at best).
    GRRRRR.  Just more homophobia.

    Lisa, I have a very good friend who is a non-feminist lesbian.
    
    If we hadn't been friends since high school, we wouldn't have very
    much in common now. And needless to say, we don't talk "politics".
    
    --DE
    

    
    Yesterday at the protest in front of Cardinal Law's residence, I
    was really glad to see women (and a few men) straight and gay...
    working together to protest the Church's stance on abortion,
    privacy, Aids education, and Lesbian and Gay rights.  When I see
    something like that, I feel hopeful again.  If we can just get
    more feminist women candidates elected....
    
    Justine

                      
	This issue (of the Lesbian/non-Lesbian split) has come up 
        for me again recently as I've begun to form more friendships 
        with women who are feminist but not lesbian.  A while ago when 
        I read Lisa Chabot's (wonderfully written) summary of the Bonnie 
        Mann W.I.T.C.H. lecture (one that I missed), I was struck by these 
        words:  (Lisa's paraphrase, I think, but maybe a direct quotation
        from Bonnie Mann)  "A straight woman can be a feminist, but she 
        lives with an inherent contradiction, which is better or worse 
        depending upon the man she is involved with."  (Note 735.22) 

	Although I have no firsthand experience of that kind of
	contradiction, I find myself agreeing that it must be tough
	to reject the patriarchy AND have a primary relationship with
	a man.  I've been talking with some women about this, and I 
	came back into this note, and reread the replies here, and 
	it seems that many (most) of the women who have written in 
	this note feel that there is no real split in the feminist 
	movement along the lines of sexual orientation, but some women 
	(especially women who are bisexual or who consider themselves 
	to be woman-oriented but not lesbian) have suggested that they 
	sometimes feel left out, like they're not included in the 
	"movement."  

	So these are some of the questions that I've begun to ask: 
	
	   What do these feelings of exclusion that some women have
	   mean for all of us?  It strikes me that in this file, for 
	   example, a lot of the anger that women have expressed has 
	   offended some of the men who read and write here.  But 
           I have generally felt that many of us have decided that 
    	   (at least in this file) protecting men's feelings is not as 
    	   important as allowing women the opportunity to share whatever 
           they're feeling.  I feel very good about that decision to put 
           women first.  

	   But now I find myself wondering about the feelings of those 
	   feminist women among us who love men or a man.  What if our 
	   words hurt them?  Should they tell us?  Do we need to do 
	   anything to make it easier for them to tell us?  And then 
	   what do we do?  I think that all women need to be free to 
	   express their feelings - even (perhaps especially) angry 
	   feelings.  But I wonder/worry sometimes that women who are 
	   involved with men begin to wonder where their experience fits.
	   I suspect that there is room for all of us, but I'm not 
	   convinced that we always do a good enough job of telling 
	   each other what's painful for us or of remembering that 
	   within our collective experience there are individuals 
	   whose pain and whose joy might be different from our own.

	To me being a feminist means that I reject a large part of the
	traditional structure.  I reject much of what has been labelled
	successful, or right, or powerful, or beautiful.  Since men 
	have generally been responsible for defining the standards that
	we're all supposed to use (for power, beauty, etc.), when I reject 
	those definitions and standards, it does mean that I reject
	the male model of the world.  And that political position often 
	gets reduced (and oversimplified) to "she hates men."  

	Now, I am pretty clear in my own mind that it is possible to hate 
	the male model and still care for some men.  But if someone 
	misunderstands my anger and accuses me of being a "man-hater," I 
	can easily say, "so what?"  It doesn't cost me very much if some 
	people think I hate men.  It might annoy me, but it doesn't cause 
	any conflict with my sense of who I am.  But is the cost (of expressing
	anger at the male model) greater for women who do love men and who are 
	involved with men?  

	These are all open questions for me.  I guess what I'm trying to find
	out is:  is there a problem, and is there anything we might do
	differently to address it?  I am proud of the work that radical
	feminists and particularly radical, lesbian feminists are
	doing in our movement, and I think it's important to recognize
	how important these women are.   However, to the extent that we 
	call this a "women's" movement, I need to be sure that we are 
	accessible to and respectful of all women.
	
   	Is anyone else out there thinking about these things?

	Justine

    re: .18
    
    Justine, what a beautiful note.
    
    I think the answer to all your questions is yes -- and yes,
    I know some of them were either/or questions or questions with
    mutally exclusive answers.  
    
    I think the feminist movement is pretty badly split along a line
    of sexual orientation, with the extremes of radical lesbianism and
    "ignore the dykes and they'll go away" heterosexuality dominating
    too much of our thoughts while most of us are in fact somewhere in
    the middle feeling left out. 
    
    I have at times been told that the reason I'm in the middle
    is that I don't have the nerve to make a real choice, that
    I can either reject all men and accept women, or I'm not really
    a feminist, I'm still a pawn of the man who owns me.
    
    Pardon my French, but that's so much bullshit.
    
    I'm heterosexual, that's all -- and that's not a political
    statement, it's a biological reality.  I could no doubt manage to
    build a stable, emotionally rewarding and psychologically
    satisfying relationship with another woman, but I wouldn't be
    sexually satisfied in that relationship, no matter how good it was
    otherwise, any more or less than a lesbian whose only relationship
    was with a man would feel fully satisfied. 
    
    One thing that makes the contradiction less is that there are a
    lot of men out there right now who very quietly don't buy into the
    patriarchy, men busy building their own lives, loving their sons
    and daughters, doing honest work, sharing the emotional burdens of
    the family with their wives while their wives share the financial
    load that was traditionally all the man's.  There are still a lot
    of chauvinist pigs out there -- but they aren't the whole story.
    
    So I don't think I would define my life as an inherent
    contradiction.  I don't think it's necessary to define all men as
    evil and all sex with men as bad (I've seen radical feminist stuff
    that says this in so many words) in order to reject the
    patriarchy.  And only if you define any contact with men as
    contact with the enemy is living with a man an inherent
    contradition.
    
    But I wouldn't deny that my life has a difficulty that's not
    present in the life of a lesbian feminist.  The lesbian is
    free to explore the full dimensions of what it means to be
    a woman (and some of the notes explaining the insights these
    women have gathered have been the most valuable for me), while
    I, without that foundation, am trying to change society by
    making my own family something different in the midst of the
    patriarchy.  
    
    Perhaps I would have been better off cutting off men for a time so
    I could explore women before going back to men, but I don't think
    so.  I think I would only feel like I was denying a key part of my
    sexuality, closeting myself in reverse. 
    
    But I do know that women who are dedicated to and defined by only
    women have a great deal to teach me about myself, and I only wish
    it were easier to get together to share these beliefs, insights,
    understandings, and warmth. 
    
    --bonnie