Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Hi REK--
    
    To answer your poll--
    
    1. I think men should be allowed to participate in WOMANNOTES. 
    For the most part I think their inputs add value--because I access
    this conference to help understand us ALL.
    
    2. Men are a plus to this conference, for the above reason.
    
    3. Perhaps there would be more women in this file if no men were
    allowed to participate;  but how do you know how many women are
    reading and not writing?
    
    4. I personally would not like to see this conference become
    women-only.  I feel that WOMANNOTES is for "topics of interest to
    women", and hosted by women;  therefore I think we have the right
    to ask that SOME of our topics be replied to by women only if we
    choose.  (MENNOTES has the same set-up)
    
    Since there is so little understanding in the world, I really don't
    like to see any more separation of people if we can possibly avoid
    it.
    
    Jane

1. Yes. I also feel they should be encouraged to listen more. In fact,
there's something about notes that really discourages taking the time
to listen and think and care.

2. Depends on the man. Personally, I'm often heavily put off when a
minority of the men are being a minus. However, some of my favorite
contributors are men (well, _some_... :-).

3. I'd put more into this conference if there was more support to do
so.

4. Not this file.
	Mez

    1 - yes
    2 - plus
    3 - no
    4 - no

    1. yes
    2. a plus
    3. I don't know
    4. no

    1.Yes I feel men should be allowed to participate in this file
    2.I feel that the large majority of the men have been a plus
    3.I doubt baning men would change the over all number of women
    participants - some might join that otherwise would not but
    others might leave
    4. For me personally - no

    1. Yes men should be allowed to participate
    2. Most of the men who participate have been a plus
    3. Don't think it would make a difference in the numbers
    4. Not this file - might like to see a "wimmin-only feminist-oriented
       file" somewhere else, but not this one.
    

    
    1. NO - For my reasons stated in 335.50
    
    2. I have no real answer.  I feel some of the men are very supportive
       and sensitive.  Some of the men are attempting to broaden their
       understanding and knowledge.  Very commendable.  I still believe
       a notesfile called WOMANNOTES is not the place - a notes file
       called Women and Men's issues would be the place.  Women are
       perfectly capable of independent thoughts and actions that in
       no way relate to, or involve men.
      
    3. YES  - Many of the men have a very difficult time understanding
              why women react as they do, and then they seem to be quick
              to add what they would do.  Oftimes, with (I hope) no malice,
              they trivialize the frustration and trauma that women experience.
              This behaviour also tends to hold the "male reaction" as
              the better reaction.  I happen to believe that as women
              we can work out a better way for a woman to react.  A
              way that makes us use those skills and experiences we
              as women share.  
     
    4. YES
    

    Flora..,again you've said it all
    
    
    
    
    MaggieT
    

    
      1. Do you feel men should be allowed to participate in this
    notesfile?

	They should be allowed to "listen" and respond with their
	reactions but not to tell women how they (women) should
	react.

      2. Do you feel that men has been a plus or minus in here?

	Since there are men and there are MEN and I have learned
	to use the next unseen key the bother factor has dropped.
    
      3. Would more women use this notesfile more if men weren't allowed
    in here?

	I doubt if the number would change.
    
      4. Would you like this file to be women only?

	Not this conference, maybe another set up for that reason.
    
I have a question.

	REK, why are you asking these questions?  I think that most
of these questions have been discussed before in various notes in this
conference.

	_peggy		(-)
			 |
				The Goddess is in every living thing.

    
    I also agree with much of what Flora has said here.  I think that
    many of the comments from male participants have shown real insight
    and a desire to understand.  But I think that many more men fail
    to understand the purpose of this file and have shown great disrespect
    for women. I deal with that lack of respect in most of my waking
    moments, and my hope was that this file would provide a respite
    from that.
    
    It is my belief that the large male presence in this file inhibits
    many women from expressing themselves freely and openly.  In fact,
    one of my favorite Womannoters said in response to the anger that
    a women was expressing, something like, (NOTE: This is a paraphrase
    *not* a direct quote) 'What would the men reading this file think
    about you talking like that?'  If that isn't a classic example
    of how this file isn't safe, I don't know what is.  Because of that
    inhibition that I believe many women feel in the presence of large
    numbers of men, I reject this poll as an accurate measure of the
    feelings of women in this file.  This is only my opinion, but I
    would hesitate to trust any "results" that might be posted.
    When one woman described her *true* feelings, she got hate mail.
    
    My wish for this file is that men would feel welcome to stay
    in this conference, but that they would feel the way I felt when,
    after being raised a Catholic, I was asked to participate in a
    Jewish naming ceremony for the baby of a friend of mine.  I felt
    honored to attend.  I was thrilled at the opportunity to learn
    about a culture that was different from my own, but I didn't go
    around telling people that they ought to be singing "Amazing Grace."
    And if you don't know the tune, let me sing it for you.
                             
    Justine

    1.  yes
    
    2.  both
    
    3.  ?
    
    4.  no
    
    
    
    Should "men" (the "other" sex?) be allowed to participate?  Just
    how do you intend to stop them?  Much of the time, I don't even
    notice if a note is written or replied to by a male or female. 
    I respond to the content, not the sex of the writer.
    
    Some PEOPLE are supportive of some opinions, topics, feelings,
    discussions.  Some PEOPLE are not.  Why break it down by gender?
    
    Why should I feel uncomfortable expressing my feelings or thoughts
    because a 'man' (horrors!) might read it?!  Some of my best friends
    are men!   I tell them what I feel comfortable expressing.  I can
    express some things to some men better than some woman.  Its the
    individual and my relationship with that person that counts, not
    their gender.
    
    

    ALRIGHT Justine!!
    
    Great note--that last paragraph really says it for me.  That's exactly
    the way I'd like to see it;  men as "honored guests" to this file,
    and of course the same for women in the mens' file.   
    
    Thanks for phrasing it so well!
    
    Jane
    
    

          1. Do you feel men should be allowed to perticapate in this
    notesfile?                                                 
    
      Yes.
    
      2. Do you feel that men has been a plus or minus in here?
    
      For the most part a plus, but there have been instances with
    particular individuals...
      
      I agree with several others who say that women spend too much
    time arguing and proving their position rather than discussing the
    issues.
    
      3. Would more women use this notesfile more if men weren't allowed
    in here?                 
    
      I don't think so.  I think that we should help other women learn
    to use NOTES and access this conference. 
      
      I think the discussion of some issues has been hampered by the
    presence of men here - some women are not comfortable discussing
    some things around men.
    
      4. Would you like this file to be women only?
    
      No, but I think there is a place for a women only conference.  However,
    there is no way that I know of to be sure that you are not letting
    men into the conference.  If someone was so determined, he could
    lie about being a woman, particularly if he had a non-gender-specific
    name.  Unfortunately, the types that would do something like that
    are the ones that we would most want to keep out!
    

    Elizabeth
    

    Flora, Justine, Jane - my sentiments exactly.
    
    Dawn
    

      1. Do you feel men should be allowed to participate in this
         notesfile?   Yes

      2. Do you feel that men have been a plus or minus in here?

                      Plus and Minus, like all the other genders that
                      write here.
    
      3. Would more women use this notesfile more often if men weren't 
         allowed in here?

                      Doubt it.
    
      4. Would you like this file to be women only?
    
                      No.

         Meigs

    1.  Yes I think men should be here, particularly the men who call
    themselves feminists (more than one of them have given me very good
    lessons in what feminism is all about) but also those who aren't
    feminists, who know little about what "we" think and feel and are
    willing to listen a while before they start yapping.  I'm sorry
    to be offensive towards any of the men readng this [including kf]
    but there are times when the contributions of men have sounded just
    like that.  [recognizing that certain of us tend to yap, too]
    
    2.  Plus or minus??  Both.  Those who do not espouse the party line
    [and I remain unconvinced that there _is_ a party line] bring a
    viewpoint that is interesting.  I think it has been more of a plus
    for the men than the women. 
    
    3.  Change readership by women?  Yes, different women would
    participate.  Probably the same number, but there would be quite
    a turnover.
    
    4.  Do I want this file to be O+ only?  No.
    
    I'll add one or two here:
    
    5.  Yes I would like to see a O+ only file.  I often miss the more
    radical point of view, and am glad we're seeing more of it these
    days.  For those wimmin, PLEASE DON'T GO AWAY, I NEED TO HERE THE
    VOICE OF SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT THINK MEN ARE THE BE-ALL AND END-ALL
    OF THE UNIVERSE EVERY NOW AND THEN!!!  Think of it as educating
    me...
    
    6.  No I would not like to see this go members-only, because I think
    even Kerry can add something.  He _does_ ask decent questions
    sometimes.  I think the way to cope with him is to have every note
    by him deleted immediately if it is not presented before a moderator
    first.  Think of it as house training; we are sick of seeing him
    puddle in this conference, and we don't think it's terribly funny.
     But there are times when he _is_ funny w/o being abusive, and there
    are times when even he [try not to pass out now] asks a serious
    question.  
    
    Here I go, discussing one of *them* again.  Pooh.
    
    Lee

      Re:10 Peggy, yes these questions has been asked before but never
    together. So far it looks like men are welcomed and their inputs
    are also welcomed. But there seems to be a need for a womannotes
    conference for women only. I, for one, would like to have one brought
    on board. There definetly seems to be a need for one.
    
                          REK

    I'm a little late getting here -- go for a long weekend in NYC and
    the whole world blows up behind you . . .
    
    1. Yes, I like having men and their opinions here.

    2. Men have been plus and minus, as have the women.

    3. I think the number of participants would stay about the same (there
       are limits to what the network will handle!) but the membership 
       and the tone of the file would change.  This would no doubt have
       both advantages and disadvantages.

    4. A radical feminist and/or women's-only notes file might be a
       good thing to have in addition to this file, but participating
       in womannotes for these past several months and seeing the
       differences in how many kinds of women relate to many kinds of men
       has been one of the major growth experiences in my life. 
    
    I should add that I don't know how valid my opinion is in this matter
    since I have never been afraid to defend myself to men when the
    situation called for it and ignore them when it didn't.  I don't know
    what it's like to feel that there are certain things I can't discuss in
    front of a man, any man.  There are things I wouldn't discuss in a
    public notes file, and there are things I wouldn't discuss unless I was
    certain that everyone who heard me was sympathetic, but whether those
    people were men and women wouldn't enter into it for me. Over the past
    couple of weeks, however, I have come to understand that this IS an
    issue for many, many other women. 

    I would no longer presume to try to determine why somebody else
    doesn't feel "safe" in a psychic or physical sense.
    
    --bonnie
    

    I'm new to NOTES and new to DEC, but as I am 36, not new to past
    problems of Discrimination, Rape, Sexual Harrassment, marriage,
    etc.  I read only this file because I am unwilling to expose myself
    to a public that many times does not understand what it is like
    to endure the problems I have personally faced over the years.
    
    I would welcome a women members only file that I could feel safe
    in contributing to.  Will I write to this file again?  Depends on
    the topic...maybe not.
    
    Sometimes it is hard to tell if a response is from a man, but I
    do appreciate men's views and would like for men to TRY to understand
    our views.  After being married for 16 years I am used to lip service
    when it comes to REALLY TRYING to understand.  Really radical views
    scare the S**t out of men, their defenses go up and they don't listen.
    
    In conclusion, men should stay, contribute their feelings, but not
    criticize our feelings.  And how about starting a new file???
    
    		Sherry

    1. Yes, I want men to be able to contribute (occasionally) to this
    file.  I would miss the opinion of a Jim Burrows if men were not
    allowed here.
    
    2. Depends on the man.  Some men have been wonderful.  Some men
    I don't even bother with anymore.
    
    3. We would gain some women, but lost some also.  I don't think
    the number would change much overall.
    
    4. See #1.  However, I would contribute to a woman-only file, and
    I might feel more free to discuss difficult issues there.  Or even
    more comfortable to read difficult issues there, since I wouldn't
    have to worry about how some man might react against the author.
    
                   Carol
    

    
    Does the heading of the basenote say it all?  I think so.......
    A "womannotes"file and we are asking men for space:
    
    	"POLL FOR WOMEN ONLY PLEASE!
    			     ++++++ 
    
    Onlywomannotes file - YES
    
    But that doesn't mean I wouldn't continue to read this one, I'd
    just be more likely to contribute to the onlywoman one.
    
    Have a brill Independence Day!
    
    Janice (UK)

    1.Yes
    2.Plus
    3.Dunno
    4. No

    
    Having been to an "all-girls" school I can see the pluses and minuses
    but I prefer "co-ed".
    
    Marge

    Men should be allowed in this file. We've got to learn to work with
    em and live with em in normal life. I suppose there would be some
    who'd use the file if men weren't in it but I've never been one
    to support segregation. 
    
    There are those in this file that have come down on the opinions
    of women and tried to argue us to death to prove they are right.
    But.."they" are a minority and we need to learn how to handle them.
    Notes is just a window on the world and I'd rather know the other
    side. Closing the drapes doesn't remove the problem, it just hides
    it from view. liesl

    
    1.  Yes.  I think this file gives us (women and men) the opportunity 
    for the exchange of perspectives on important and not so important
    issues that might not be discussed elsewhere.
    
    2.  From the notes I've read so far, I think their imput has been
        a plus.  Why exclude an open mind based on gender?  
                      
    3.  Who can tell?
    
    4.  I think its important to keep the channels of communication open.  
    It's my understanding that women can access mennotes. Would we forfeit
    our right to contribute there?  Would we be starting a feud between
    the two notes by excluding men?  For the same reasons, I mentioned in 
    #1 and #2, I wouldn't recommend restricting access.
    

    I for one, would participate more often in this file, if it were
    truly a woman only conference.
    
    While most of the men who participate seem fairly sensitive to
    our issues and thoughts, it is simply not possible for them to
    understand what being a woman is all about.  And that *does*
    get in their way when responding.  I can usually tell a male
    written reply before I ever see the name.  There is often a
    condecending tone, an argument, or a generous "approval" now
    and then.  Frankly, I don't know why so many men are so
    interested in invading this conference.  I feel no need to be
    a participant in mennotes.
    
    These are only my personal feelings... not shared by many of
    you.  But I appreciate the opportunity to express them.
    
    Jacki
     

    
    I feel that this should be a place *JUST* for women.  There are
    so many places where men and women can be together (in fact, virtually
    everywhere) and relatively few places where women set the limits
    and take time and space to ourselves.  
    
    This does not mean that I do not value the input from the men who
    participate.  There are many men who are active in this file who
    reaffirm my faith in us all and who make me glad to know them (even
    if only electronically).  What this does mean is that I (along with
    many other women) need a space to feel safe in, to learn and grow
    with my sisters in and I would like this to be a part of that space.
    
    It would be ideal if we could have a conference devoted to People's
    Issues where women and men could have a rousing discussion in
    celebration of our many similarities and differences,  as well as
    having separate conferences devoted to learning about ourselves
    without the influence of the opposite sex.
                         
    Just a little food for thought -- I've noticed that men are quite
    active in the vast majority of topics -- except for one:  incest,
    note 343 I think.  Any ideas as to why?
    
    Melanie

    Re .343 Any ideas why ? yes. Hard to admit having been tempted.
    

	Seconded: I for one am not "active" in the incest note for the simple
        reason that I have absolutely no experience of the subject and hence
        no valid input.
        
        Am I being obtuse in seeing in the imputation of significance to
        the absence of male input a subliminally sexist remark?
        
        /. Ian .\

    Maybe men aren't there because as .-1 said they have 'absolutely
    no experience of the subject and hence no valid input'.
    
    I could be totally wrong here (since I've only skimmed the incest
    note) but fathers molest daughters more than mothers molest sons.
    But like I said, I could be totally wrong.  I'll have to read through
    it cover to cover.
    

    To pursue this potential rathole just a little further: I think that
    with perhaps a few exceptions, most of the men active in this file are
    interested in women's issues. Some may be a little abrasive, but they
    are interested. I suspect however that a man psychologically capable
    of an incestuous relationship with a daughter, or even a sister, is
    unlikely to be that sympathetic.
    
    /. Ian .\

    OH BOTHER!  .29 was really not very nice at all.
    
    I don't have the faintest idea why men haven't posted there.  I
    haven't posted there either.  (Is there a similar topic in mennotes?
    although that may be a bit off the point, but then, so is this
    whole discussion)  And I'll admit: I've never been tempted!
    
    The usual thing to be carted out at this point is the old hat
    Men Don't Talk About Things Emotional.  Yes, I know: that's
    stereotyping and not even true.  I agree completely.  But it would
    be a bit less nasty than what has happened.
    
    Male friends of mine who were quite feminist have talked about their
    experiences, so I disagree that they would be unsympathetic.  Now,
    I do not know that they would feel like posting publicly, however;
    also, the experiences they described were where they were at an
    equal or lower controlling level than the other party involved.
    
    Is this what you meant to do, .28?  Spark all this flaming?

    re:  .28
    
    I too would like to support separate conferences for men & women.
    I've observed in my daily routine that conversations are slanted
    based on the male/female energy present in a particular group. 
    Whether this is good or bad, I don't know.  I suspect that the sharing
    in this conference is similiarly influenced.
    
    Nancy

    I have moved notes 362.36 to 362.39 to a separate topic of their
    own to leave this one as it was originally intended.
    
    Bonnie J
    moderator

    Should WOMMANOTES be "woman only space"?  I'd like to amend my
    original answer to say that I'd DEFINITELY support a "woman only"
    notes file.  
    
    - Mary
         

    I'd rather not see participation in this file limited to women.
    We don't exist in isolation, and the world we are noting about contains
    men.  I think we get a warped view if we only look at our own reactions
    to things -- well, maybe not "warped", but "limited".  Anyhow, I
    enjoy reading some of the men's viewpoints (especially Steve Lionel
    and JimB, and my old coworker Mike Carleton).
    
    /Charlotte
    

    re: limited view
    
    You can go broad, or you can go deep, or you can go deep and broad.
    I see this conference as opting for broad.
    	Mez

    <--(.39)
    
    Pun intended, Mez?  :-)

    re: .40
    I'm afraid I can think of a least 3!

Wait, wait, what's the third one?

M.

    I opt for including the men, with no restrictions.  I think men
    can be as sensitive as women, especially when communicating
    electronically.  (The flames burn just as much when a women says
    it, possibly more.  Some seem to have higher expectations for
    women friends).
    
    There are cases where men simply can't relate, such as how it
    feels to have PMS, or a baby move inside you.  They can extrapolate,
    sympathize, and have their own feelings of pain, joy, etc,
    but they will never have PMS, or carry a baby.  Whether input is 
    appropriate on a subject is not related to sex, but to value of 
    contribution.  If you have something to say that contributes, then say it.
    (And by the way, I've never had a baby, so I can't relate either).
    
    My point is that the world contains all different kinds of people
    and I personally am really happy about it. 
           
    Pat
    

    From: Personnel Policies and Procedures, Section 6.54, dated 10-Aug-1987
    (text added in this update)
    
    COMPUTERS, SYSTEMS AND NETWORKS WITH RESTRICTED CONFERENCES
    (VAX NOTES)
    
    Conferences (VAX Notes) with restricted access must be in support
    of Company business.  Conferences (VAX Notes) not in support of
    Company business must be open to all employees.

    re .45:
    
    What about unrestricted, but also unadvertised?
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re: .45
    
    Some conferences are restricted to "members only" (non work related)
    because they deal in "personal" issues.
    
    They are unrestricted in the sense that "anyone" may apply
    for membership (so long as they are a DEC employee).
    
    The purpose behind being 'restricted' is to be able to deny access
    to people who make inappropriat comments or otherwise try to
    subvert the intention of the file.
    
    It could be  for this reason a "exclusive to members only" conference
    can exist. Just makes more work for the moderators in maintaining
    "membership" lists, and keeping "records" of when someone 'must
    be denied further access'.
    
    Since many of the 'negative' comments made by women against men
    being part of the conference is directed MAINLY against those men
    who say things inappropriate in this context (this file context).
    
    Bob

    Although I've already registered my "vote" I felt I needed to make
    a distinction that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
    
    Many readers have mentioned that they value the responses of many
    of the men in this notesfile as the major reason they have for voting
    to keep the men here.  This thinking assumes that men are not wanted
    in this file because they are not valuable contributors.  
    
    It is my belief that this is NOT the reason most people have voted
    to keep men out.  Instead, we are talking about womanspace - a rare
    commodity in a male-identified, made for, by and of male society.
    We are talking about women drawing strength from other women, sharing 
    our common experiences, growing and connecting away from the influences
    of men. 
    
    My point is:  there is a major difference between not wanting men in
    the file because you don't feel men are valuable contributors (which
    is not necessarily true - some people are and some aren't) and not
    wanting men in the file because you want to create womanspace. 
    The first is necessarily threatening and oppressive.  The second
    is valuing differences -- not making a judgement.
    
    Melanie
    
    P.S.  I hope I've summarized these ideas clearly and accurately.
          If not, I'd be interested in hearing how you differ regarding
          it.

    re .48  It won't work, for the same reasons that men-only clubs
    don't. 

    re .48, .49
    
    Geez, I sorta thought the clarification was pretty accurate.  My
    question runs more along the lines of: can we have a womanspace
    which includes men, where being thought a rather female sort of
    male is regarded as a nice thing...
    
    Lee