Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Jude, I understand you are in pain, but can you repeat your question,
    a little slower and with more detail, please?
    
    We're here for you.
    
                    Carol

    If I understood you correctly, Jude, you are waiting while your
    SO (who is also a DECcie) breaks the news to his current partner
    that he is breaking up with her to be with you?  And now he has
    told you that he "needs more time" and you are wondering if he is
    changing his mind, or letting you down?
    
    Please correct any wrong assumptions on my part, OK?
    
    You have my support.  It is very hard to work for the same company
    under those conditions.  When I was going through some stress with
    my SO last year, and we weren't seeing one another for a while,
    it was painful for me to know that we were even reading notes that
    the other had written.  
              
    How can we support you?
    
    Holly
    

    
    	Please also write in lowercase, it hurts the eyes when they
    are in UPPERCASE 8*)....
    
    			Mike
    

re .2

Yes, I am waiting while my so (deccie) breaks the news to his
current partner that he is breaking up with her.  The reason
he is giving her, for me or not even mentioning someone else, I'm
not sure. I'm not wondering if the "needs more time", because "he
is changing his mind or letting me down".  It would be so much easier
if I knew that he was changing his mind or no longer had any
feeling for me but its not that easy.

This is the story in part - he has for a few years, had this so who
has become very dependant on him and feels as thou she can not live
without him and has, on several occasions mentioned bodily harm to
herself if he should ever leave.  He has told me that he could not
or is unsure how he would handle it if she did in fact do something
to herself.  Guilt has gotten him.  Tes, he is unhappy and is living 
her life and not his own, which makes me sad because he should live 
his own life before anyone else's.  Of course I am partly to blame too, 
I never really told him how I actually felt until recently.  He has
told her that he doesn't love her but with no luck. To top it all
off its not a good time to give him any ultimatum (but then again
what is a good time) because his father has recently passed away.

Feel free to ask any questions, this is one notes file he does not
read.


re .1

When I gave him the ultimatum along with a time period, I also told
him that if he did not break it off completely that I no longer 
wanted to here from him again. But!! of course I really did not mean
this. So, do I break down (already on my last leg) and call to see
how he is doing or do I just sit back, bite my nails, work myself
out crazy at the gym for long hours and wait for him to call even
thou I asked him not to ever again.  And, he has always done what
i've asked.  I know it takes time...

What I'm asking is what should I do.  I know that nobody can really
tell me what to do but suggestion are more than welcome.  maybe there
is no answer but how do we give *so* the time that he needs without
putting more weight on his shoulders.  Its not easy dealing with
someone that feels that they can not live without them.  And its
painful being on the other end. Should I let him not that I am
waiting and will be here when he is ready or keep my mouth shut?

Hope this helps,
Jude

RE. 3

Sorry, I always type in lower case but my mind has not been working
properly lately.


    

    I can't give you any advice, but your competition and she is,
    is using a good weapon "guilt" to keep him. I have a hard time
    accepting the idea that he is your "so" since he has not broken
    off with "his current partner".
                                                  
    dave

    
    	I just want to commment on one thing you said.
    	You said he is living her life, and not his, well
    	from what I can read, is that you are living his life,
    	and not yours.  Try to read into the picture little more,
    	in the respect that, is it worth the pain, and waiting,
    	and the fact that you could hang on for a longer period of
    	time, and the be left hanging on the end of the rope by yourself.
    	I agree withe Dave Harding that she is using GUILT as a very
    	strong weapon. Do his first SO work at DEC also, is there pressure
    	on him in that repsect.
    
    			Mike
    

    Now that you've been waiting it out for a while, you may want to
    change your strategy.  One important question for me would be to
    ask how much I want him.  How great a price am I willing to pay?
    Can I deal with this man and maintain my self-respect, or will I
    have to play games and live in a world of ultimatums and broken
    promises?
    
    You may decided that you want him no matter what the price.  If
    so, that will lead you to one sort of strategy.  The unfortunate
    flip side of that is that he will hold *all* the power in the
    relationship if he knows you want him no matter what the price.
    
    You may find that you have some limits.  It's very important to
    explore what those are.  You need to know what they are, as does
    he.  
    
    You may decided to change your strategy, too.  I can imagine calling
    him and telling him that I would like to know what is going on for
    him; that I'm not comfortable with our last interaction; that I
    have done some thinking and I know what I need from the relationship;
    that I would like to know what he thinks he needs; and that I realize
    by giving him an ultimatum, I inadvertently put him in the same
    position his other partner does.  I would acknowledge that he probably
    felt like he was between a rock and a hard place!
    
    I would try to set up a time to meet and talk with him, probably
    in a semi-public place to help keep things focused.
    
    Before the meeting, I would get together with a friend and work
    through some of my own emotions so that I didn't "run them" at him.
    
    ======================
    
    
    Jude, this is just one approach--hopefully, it will spark your own
    creativity at a time when you seem to be feeling a bit overwhelmed.
    
    It's very important for you to get some support for yourself from
    someone other than him so that you are clear and lovable (as opposed
    to anxious and desperate!) when you talk with him.
    
    Let us know how it goes, ok?   Holly

    Jude, it sounds to me like you're climbing walls because you haven't
    allowed for any checkpoints or closures. You've told him not to
    communicate with you unless he does a certain thing by a certain
    time. But even if you wait that time period, and he doesn't contact
    you, you'll be left with a million questions. At the very least,
    I'd say that at the time-out you *should* contact him (or he, you),
    to provide a clean break (if that's what you're still looking for).
    Make the end an event, not a non-event.
    	Mez

    
        Will you ever be sure that he (or perhaps more importantly,she)
    has really broken it off. Good luck with whatever you're decision
    is and you're right, only you can really decide but whichever way
    it goes...make it definate (and permanent) !
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve
    
    ps.. if you're really suffering - try the QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS 
         notefile there's a few notes in there that might help.
    

    Is this distortion of perceiving an individual's responsibility
    to one's 'self' a pattern in his past relationships?  For a partner
    to threaten suicide indicates some serious mental problems that
    obviously need to be resolved for her.  I gather he doesn't realize
    how staying with her is distorting his own growth and further crippling
    her.
    
    Also, for what it's worth, it sounds to me like both of them could
    be ACoA - Adult Children of Alcoholics.  Are you familiar with this
    identified group?  Most of us know that alcoholism is very
    misunderstood as a disease, those who grew up in that distorted
    environment have problems of their own in adulthood, but often go
    unidentified.  I've been doing a lot of reading on it over the past
    year and have been amazed at the misconceptions I had about the
    problem.
    
    There are two good books to read on the subject if you want to check
    it out: "It'll Never Happen to Me" and "Adult Children of Alcoholics".
    The woman who wrote the latter just published another about
    relationships that's also very good "Struggles of Intimacy" (or
    something close to that).  I suggest you check it out.  There are
    many ACoAs out there whose guilt and frustration could be greatly
    alleviated by understanding the problem patterns and the confusion
    those patterns generated, which developed as a
    result of growing up in a (wet or dry) alcohol-influenced environment.
    
    Good luck.
    Wendy

    The problem with issuing ultimatums is that no one can really force
    another person to do anything he or she does not want to do.  No
    relationship that is built on force can really last.  Some of us
    may appear to allow others to make certain decisions for us...that
    is usually an illusion or an excuse for doing what we want to do
    in the first place (without getting hasseled for it).  
    If you enjoy being with him....why not just enjoy being with him?  
    If your comfort with the circumstances surrounding your relationship
    dwarfs the pleasure of his company,...why not let him go?  

I didn't call or mail, which was really getting tough to do.
I received mail from him saying he missed me and would call
me later.  He called and after too much hounding (I needed
to know) he admitted, that it might be guilt, is not sure
why it is taking him so long to break it off, (still needs
more time) is totally confused and yes would like there
to be a future for us.

I think the purpose behind the ultimatum was so he would 
break it off asap.  But for some strange reason she really
has a good hold on him and I can not figure it out, nor
if there is something will he tell me.

He asked if I would wait and give him the time he needed.
Because I honestly believe this is the man that I would
like to spend the rest of my life with, I agreed but also
said I would date others.  I just can not figure out why
he is hurting me by taking so long to end the relationship.
Maybe time will tell.

Other opinions are great.  re .6  You could be right that
he is not my SO after all.  She has what I want and I don't
have him.  And now that I have agreed to wait maybe I *am* living
his life and not my own after all.

So, now the both of us are totally confused.  He just "does 
not know" and I don't know how much more hurt I can take.
Is it really true that you always hurt the ones you love?
Right know thou I'm willing to hang in there for as long
as I can.  I did it for 17 days without contact, it was pure
h*** but I did it, and without knowing how he felt.  It might
be worse if I have to forget knowing that he does really care
after all.

One last thing, she has agreed that where they do not have 
anything in common it would be best to end the relationship,
of course this was after heating fight.  Do men prefer woman
to end the relationship?

Hanging in there,
Jude
    
    

    

            <<< RAINBO::$2$DUA11:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics Of Interest To Women >-
================================================================================
Note 283.0              Tough questions, no easy answers                 1 reply
CHUCKL::GMATTHEWS                                    37 lines  14-APR-1987 11:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Jude, I feel for you if only because I've put myself thru' similar
    trauma in the distant past. As I read your notes I get concerned
    for your well-being (since that's the only "side" I see), my concern
    is about what you might be doing to your life while this other person
    makes his mind up.
    
    An approach I've found useful for me when faced with emotional problems
    is to sit down and construct a check list of "what if" questions.
    I try to be as cold and objective as I can. Some questions you might
    ask are:
    
    - Is the dependancy your SO has in the other relationship really
    one way?
    - Is it possible he "needs" someone to be dependant and therefore
    is reluctant to give it up?
    - Is this indecision on his part typical of his style and what does
    that mean for you in a relationship with him?
    - Why is he moving from one relationship straight into another (not
    knowing all the details this is probally unfair question).
    
    And so on.
    
    It is important you focus on your needs and make sure your SO does
    not, by his own needs, denigrate them.
    
    Finally a piece a philosophy that came out of the "hippie" period
    may apply, tough as it is to do:
    
    "If you love something, let it go.
     If it returns it is your's,
     if it does'nt, it never was".
    
                                           
                                            Be good to yourself
    
                                            Geoff
    

    May I suggest the following ? Ask him to imagine that you
    don't exist, that he has no interest outside his current
    relationship. Then he can solve one problem at a time. he
    may feel subconsciously that he doesn't want to leave her
    for YOU. Or he may be too immature to make up his mind and
    accept the consequences of his choice. Good luck. Dana

    Jude:
    
    This is really a difficult situation to be in.  I found myself in
    the same situation a few years ago.  Like you said, no one can really
    tell you what to do, but to have supportive friends around helps
    alot.
    
    I agree with Holly (from my experience), if you let him know how 
    much your willing to pay to have him, he may find himself in a 
    very advantagious (sp) position when the two of you do get together.
    (But then all men react to things differently)
    
    So, speaking woman to woman, make sure you search within yourself
    because just like you feel you can't live without him, there's probably
    someone out there who would not put you through nights of nail biting
    etc. to have you.
    
    Then you also have to ask yourself (though it is hard to think that
    way of someone you love) are you the one they're stringing along.
    When there is distance between you, you really don't know what is
    going on where he is.  (Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying
    to turn you against him) but these are certainly areas you have
    to consider when in a situation as heartbreaking as this.
    
    Jude, I hope all works out to your advantage.
    
    CC
    

    Va voir sa "current partner" et casse-lui la figure...
    
    
    Zoziau

    And I quote :
    
    	-< the advice of an impetuous and impatient Aries >-
    
    Go see his "current partner" and break her face.
    
    Z.           
    
    Unquote.
    

    re. 17
    
    I like that one but my one and only encounter with her was
    enough.  When I was leaving one of my jobs *HE* (seeing how
    he might not be *my* so after all) and another male friend of
    mine went out and had a few drinks after work. This was when we 
    were just friends.  The other friend was tired, not feeling well
    and left.  Leaving just us two platonic friends talking over drinks.
    She came storming in asking him what he was doing here when he told
    her, he was going to the gym and who the hell was I.  Insecure, you
    bet.  She continued to ramble on, called him out of the room them came
    back in to inform me that he was her boyfriend and wanted to make
    that perfectly clear to me. I explained that see blew everything
    out of proportion and it was not what it might have appeared to
    be.  Reminds me of another topic - opposite sex co-workers having
    after work drinks.  She finally gave up and left in a huff.  So,
    why bother dealing with someone that can not keep there cool.  I'm
    not violent but that really does sound like a good idea thou. Maybe
    I could break his face and he could explain it to her how it happened.
    Its funny, that was way over a year ago and he is still telling
    me there is *nothing* there.  I seem to be seeing light again at
    the end of the tunnel, thanks to all the advice.
    
    Jude \___^.
         /\ /\
        
        

    
    Jude:
    
    So much of what you've described here is familiar to me that it's
    haunting.  I was in a very similiar situation except I was the "wife."
    My SO was seeing someone while we were involved and living together.
    My SO told the other woman that things were over between us but
    that it would take time to sort it out, and I got the same line
    about the other woman.  I may be mistaken.  Maybe the man you're
    seeing is being truthful with both of you, but the dynamics you've
    described sounded so familiar to me that I felt compelled to write.
    Like you, I hung in there in limbo, believing and hoping, trying
    to be supportive, convinced that I had found the right person for
    me and that if I could only be patient, everything would be ok.
    Finally, after more than a year of lies and pain I walked away,
    still doubting that I was doing the right thing.  It took almost
    another year before I believed that leaving *was* the right thing.
    You will have to make the decision that feels right to you.  I am
    glad to see that you are reaching out to the members of this conference
    for support and advice.  One of the things that really got me into
    trouble was that I isolated myself from my friends and ended up
    making some bad decisions.  No matter what you decide about the
    man in your life, try to keep checking in with yourself.  It's really
    ok to ask questions like, "What's in this for me?"
    
    Take good care
    
    Justine

    Re .16, .17, "break her face"????!!!  I think that's pretty ignorant
    thinking.  Hope it's a joke.  In my opinion, you really can't blame
    his current SO because he doesn't leave her.  He's the one who
    has to make the decision.  He is an adult and it is a free country.
     I doubt she chains him up at night.
   
    Lorna
     

    In the book "Godesses in Everywoman", the Hera archetype blaims
    the other woman before she'll blaim her "husband". And the Athena
    archetype will not allow anything negative to be said about a man
    by a woman (the example given was Ms. Shafly [sp?]). I would think
    if a woman was compelled to blaim other women before blaiming the
    man, she might find these parts of the book interesting. That is,
    if she finds understanding herself makes it easier for her to change
    herself, or her situation. 
    
    But ignore the sappy quotes on the cover... :-)

    [I don't know if this really applies to the current situation, or
    Jude is just indulging in some revenge fantasy.]
    	Mez

    I went through a similar situation a while ago, although the shoe
    was on the other foot.  He was very sweet, and intelligent, and
    had many talents, but was extremely dependent on me.  I accepted
    him, in hopes I could strengthen him, and make him a better person.
     I loved him a great deal, and lived with him for 2 years.  He was
    very kind to me, very understanding, but also painfully shy, quiet,
    and had no self esteem.  Eventually he became a drain, and my energy 
    and strength in the relationship was sapped by him.  Coincidentally, 
    at this time I met a wonderful man.  Very shortly thereafter, although 
    I originally had no intention of ever leaving my boyfriend, I came 
    to love this wonderful person.  And very shortly thereafter, the 
    decision was clear to me.  Although my boyfriend was VERY upset, 
    (threatened bodily harm, etc), I decided it would be best for all
    involved that I should be with the other man.
     My original boyfriend had problems, and although I tried to help,
    it just seemed he leaned on me more and more, and refused to face
    his problems.  Since then he has sought psychiatric help to give
    him a stronger self-image, and allow him to own all of his successes
    (which are many).  I knew that if I stayed with him, he may have
    depended on me forever, never making progress (even moving in the
    opposite direction).  But after my realization I cared about this
    other man, and he truly loved me, our relationship has soared beyond
    my wildest dreams (just as I pictured it would).
    
    point being - if this gentleman friend of yours was strong enough
    in his convictions to love you, then he would be strong enough to
    leave this woman.  No decision that affects so many lives should
    be taken lightly, but as I see it the decision is not even in your
    hands.  Please stop waiting with baited breath.  As I believe
    if he had wanted to leave her, he'd have done so by now, I feel
    you should (as time goes by) put less and less stock in his promises.
    
    Strength & Hope
    
    Jody

re .20

No, I would not honestly break her face.  It is true that I can
not blame her for loving him.  He seems to be the problem I am
having and not her directly.

re .21

"[I don't know if this really applies to the currrent situation, or
Jude is just indulging in some revenge fantasy.]"
I really don't believe I am the revenge full type, even in a 
fantasy.  She is not to blame for either me or her being in love with 
the same man.  Doing anything to her would not get me anywhere and
I'm not about to lower myself to that level.

re .22

Thanks for sharing your experience with me.  In this short time I
have realized that he might not leave her after all.  It still
hurts and will for a long time but as someone said earlier "he's
eating his cake and having it too", but no longer at my expense.
So, yes I think, even thou my feelings have not changed, I have
stopped waiting with baited breath.  I feel the same too that if
he wanted to leave her, he'd have done so by now.  Just can not
figure out why he still calls and sends mail. Confused I am

Jude \___^.
     /\ /\


    

    Maybe he likes jealous women ? It's a definite possibility
    in light of the fact that he has two.

    Pendant trois mois, je suis sortie avec deux garcons en meme temps.
    Au debut, on est presque fiere de soi; on se dit qu'on est
    ir-re-sis-tible, on n'a pas une minute a soi, on est demandee partout,
    on se sent couverte d'amour et de tendresse a ne plus savoir qu'en
    faire, raaahhh !!!.. le pied, quoi !
    
    Puis ca se gate : on commence a melanger les prenoms, les habitudes,
    on gaffe, on se debat douloureusement pour reussir a etre au four
    et au moulin a la fois; a chaque fin de cycle, on se demande : "Et
    si mes regles n'arrivent pas, si je me trouve enceinte, qui donc,
    foutredieu, sera le pere ?"...
    
    Enfin, heureusement, un de nos amants finit par prendre le pas sur
    l'autre, et dans les bras de ce dernier, l'esprit fuit sans cesse vers
    le premier. Alors vient le moment ou il faut se decider a remercier
    - plus ou moins elegamment - l'amant evince, au risque de le regretter
    plus tard !..
    
    C'est dur de choisir, dur de faire de la peine a qui nous aime,
    a qui a confiance en nous. Mais le plus dur est de garder son choix,
    de ne pas changer d'avis, de ne pas ceder. C'est un peu pareil que
    d'arreter de fumer, ce n'est qu'apres quelque temps qu'on s'apercoit
    qu'on avait raison...
    
    
    Bonne chance,
    
    Zoziau

    
    PS: Et dis-moi, as-tu essaye de "le" rendre jaloux, "LUI" ?
    Rapproche-toi de son meilleur ami, drague-le un peu, fais en sorte
    que si tu comptes vraiment pour "lui", la moutarde "lui" montera
    fatalement au nez, "il" s'apercevra brusquement qu'"il" tient a
    toi, et qu'"il" peut te perdre. S'"il" est intelligent, et s'"il"
    t'aime, meme - surtout ! - s'"il" comprend que ton attitude est en
    realite un jeu, "il" entendra la sonnette d'alarme, et se decidera
    peut-etre a - te - choisir, ce que je te souhaite de tout mon coeur !

    Z.

    re .24  
    
    Ah, but I'm not jealous.  About her that is.  Can not figure out
    why.
    
    re .25
    
    Sorry, I might be french but I don't either speak or read it.
    Could you please translate?
    
    Jude \___^.
         /\ /\
    

    
    Re : .25
    
      -< Miss Milk-Soup apologises .. and tries to mince her words ! >-

For three months I went out with two boys at the same time.  At first, you're
almost proud of yourself;  you say to yourself you are ir-re-sis-tible,
you don't have a minute to yourself, you are in demand everywhere, you feel
surrounded by love and tenderness until you don't know what to do,  great.
[sorry, not sure what "pied" means here]

Then it goes bad :  you begin to get names and habits mixed up, you put
your foot in your mouth, fight with yourself in order to have your cake
and eat it to [literally, in order to be at the oven and the mill at the
same time];  at the end of each cycle, you wonder : "and if my period doesn't
come, if I'm pregnant, who the h*ll will be the father?"...

At last, happily, one of your lovers begins to move ahead of the other,
and in the arms of the latter [the fading one], you can't stop thinking
of the first.  So the moment comes when you must decide to thank - more
or less elegantly - the  rejected lover, at the risk of regretting it
later !..

It is hard to choose, hard to hurt someone we love, who trusts us.  But
the hardest thing of all is to stick to your decision, not to change your
mind, not to yield.  It's like stopping smoking, it is only after some time
that you realise it was the right thing to do.

Good luck, 
    
    Zoziau

PS:  Tell me, have you tried to make *him* jealous?
     Get close to his best friend, flirt a little, in a way if you
     mean anything to "him" he will lose his temper, "he" will suddenly
     understand that you are something to him, that he might lose
     you .   If he is intelligent, and he loves you - above all - if
    he understands that your pose is just a game, he'll hear the alarms
    sounding, and will decide maybe to choose *you*, and that is what
    I wish with all my heart.    

    Z.

    UNQUOTE.
    

                        Please, What happened next!????

    			Andy,
    
    			Who_is_waiting_with_baited_breath_!

Well, I haven't gone off and crawled into a hole.  I'm
still here and fighting away.  Its been 62 days but who's
counting.  Since March 27th buts who's keeping track.

I think my patience has run out.  I have reread all the
response's and have thought about them all.  So many of 
them are true in there own way.

Anyway, yet another update, Andy must be dying right about
now.  The mail messages continued, continued and continued.
Of course so didn't my replys.  Then the phone calls starting
again, both at work and home.  Nothing was mentioned about
how *they* were doing, thinking the less I knew the better
off.  All the time finding it difficult to communicate on
a platonic wave length when you know how you really feel.

I finally reached the point where I realized that at this
time I am not ready to have a platonic relationship with
someone that I want/wanted (he's not mine yet) to spend the
rest of my life with.  So, once again I requested that he
would not call me at all or send any mail.  He could not 
understand why, I explained why, and said that he would like
to get together to talk.  Calmly I said when and where.  This
is great...  He said he doesn't know when because he is still
not ready yet.  And in another 62 days he will be half ready then 
in yet another 62 days he will be almost ready, and so on and so
on.

Once again we are back to square one, no phone calls and no mail.  
I think I am getting tired of waiting, what this means I'm not quite 
sure.  I told him not to call until he his 100% ready.  I can't wait
for ever.  Some might say that if I loved him enough I would but
I also have to live my life.

re .9 > Will you ever be sure that he (or perhaps more importantly,
        she) has really broken it off?

I thought of this often and wonder what would happen if he did 
decide that it was going to be just him and I, if he wouldn't regret
what ever he has done to her, some where down the line.

re .30 or .28 I forget. But Bob you are right, I believe that he
is afraid to tell me the truth; for fear of losing BOTh of us,
and now he has lost me because I won't except any more calls.
I don't even think that she is aware of what he does when she is
not with him and he was with me.  Its starting to sound like an
affair and he could be even married to her for all I know.  And
last but not least, YES I "would rather have a so who can live his
own life, instead of being blackmailed into staying with someone
else".

Once again, thanks for all the advice, it really has helped a lot.
Jude 8^)

    

In the hopes that it might help you deal with your situation, I reccommend a
very good book.  It should still be available in most bookstores.

The name of the book is "UNCOUPLING", but I can't think of the author's
name right off. 

It is a very well-written book about the problems everyone faces when they
go through the dissolution of a relationship.  It is not aimed specifically
at the break-up of a marriage, but is concerned with the effects of any
kind of break-up.

It is non-judgemental, and is aimed at showing (telling) the reader how to
cope with the "uncoupling".  It is not! preachy.  It attempts to show how
all break-ups have similar components and how the reader can cope by 
finding parallels from other cases.

It is not aimed at either helping with a reconcilliation or with helping
dissolve the relationship. It gives guidance for whatever path you choose,
and I and some friends I have recommended it to have also found it to be
of use.

In love and peace;

Dirk

    Congratulations and best of luck to you both.  I wish you both 
    all the happiness in the world.  It seems that good things do 
    happen to good people sometimes afterall.
    Mary

    Indeed!  I second Mary's wishes and congratulations.  And thanks
    for telling us about it, Richard; happy endings are always best.
      
                                                in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie