Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Thank you for bringing up the topic.  I did not have the courage
    to bring it up myself.
    
    I read the book.  It is indeed a classic.  (By the way, your town
    library should have a copy of it.)
    
    I am not sure what response other people would have, but as far
    as I am concerned, she is probably one of the best executive talent
    in *any* profession.
    
    Some people are willing to buy it, some people are willing to sell
    it, I really don't understand why the world has so much trouble
    in accepting the world's oldest (second?) profession as anything
    but just as a profession?

- Vikas

    Morally, I do not believe that prostitution is "right", therefore
    I would not be a prostitute.  However, I support legalized
    prostitution.  I do not believe a woman should have the right to
    "sell her body" as it was phrased in .0, but I do believe a woman
    should have the right to sell her SERVICES, as would a carpenter
    or bricklayer.  Likewise I believe that men should have this right.
    
    My opinions are based on information I obtained while taking a human
    sexuality class in college.  The speaker one day was a young woman
    (late twenties?) who had had prejudices against prostitution until
    she studied it in depth, including spending quite a bit of time
    with prostitutes of different "levels" (call girls, street walkers,
    etc).  I'm sorry that I do not remember what she said, but it made
    me think, and the reading I did later helped me to come to the above
    conclusion.  I think that it should be treated as a profession like
    any other, whether performed by a man or a woman, and should be
    subject to health regulations and checks.
    
    Here in Colorado Springs, they have discovered 2 prostitutes who
    have the AIDS antibodies.  I wonder how many more there are out
    there who might be able to spread AIDS or other diseases?  Among
    other benefits, I think that regulating legal prostitution might be 
    able to help reduce health hazards.
    
                   Carol

    Personal opinion also:
    
    I've always thought that one of the reasons that prostitution as
    a "profession" would not work is because people have a very hard
    time making a distinction between their bodies and "themselves"
    (i.e. their personality, character, soul, ego, whatever word you
    want to use).  Thus selling one's body would add up to selling oneself.
    
    But published report about prostitutes often say that the way they
    "handle" the job is by mentally separating themselves from the
    actitivity.  I don't think I could do this.
    
    This is a tough issue.  I do believe there should be a way to protect
    the health of the people who are going to do this anyway.  
    
    The Mayflower Madam was probably so successful because she combined
    a variety of services -- not just sexual services, but also those
    that the geisha houses in Japan used to offer -- a good listener,
    a retreat from the rat race, beauty, elegance, etc.  I've also read
    somewhere that many men who go to prostitutes spend as much time
    talking as they do having sex (I think this goes for women as well). 

    Gloria    

    Personal opinion here:
    
    If men/women need someone to "talk to", there's always a counselor,
    psychiatrist, social worker, psychologist, whatever and they are
    a lot cheaper than the woman "professionals" under the thumb of
    Mayflower Madame.  I heard her say on television that one of her
    "girls" can make as much as $1200 a night if they are "good", whatever
    constitutes "good".
    
    As you can see, I am against "it", not "her".  If she wants to run
    a business with professionalism and everyone is in agreement with
    "the rules", fine.  But, honestly, I'm glad she got exposed.
    
    "The mind is a terrible thing to waste" (don't quote me on that
    'cause I didn't say this, someone else did).  Imagine if the phrase
    was "The BODY is a terrible thing to waste"?

    RE: .3  (Bob)
    
    I have to disagree that a woman's body is her own only if she is
    unmarried.  You certainly have the right to put restrictions
    on the kind of activities your wife may engage in.  However, both
    you and she have the option of either not getting married or getting
    a divorce if she wants to do something you strongly dislike her
    doing, such as being a prostitute.  Even in the case of a daughter,
    you can express your dislike for her promiscuity or prostitution,
    but you always have the right to send her to a home for wayward
    girls or have her put in a foster home if she is determined to go
    completely against your wishes.  So, there are other options than
    to be legally and financially responsible for another's actions.
    
    Before I get flamed, I am not advocating divorce or abandoning of
    parental duties.  I am just pointing out that there are other options
    than absolute control of a woman by her husband/SO/father/etc.
    
    Elizabeth

    The book itself does give some statistics even though it could not be
    considered any authoritative.  According to her, when prostitutes gets
    busted by the vice squad, it is the women who gets nabbed i.e. the
    pimps and johns are minority to get arrested on the prostitution
    charges.  Funny, I always thought prostitution involved at least two
    willing parties.  From male stand point it is always advantageous to
    have prostitution as a looked down profession. 
    
    Another tidbit (can't remember the source) is that in Las Vegas
    you can actually walk down the street at any time of the night unlike
    any other city in the US.  When was the last time some shady looking
    person approached you for a gallon of rum/whiskey?

    Legalized prostitution works.  I think Scandinavian countries can
    set a very good example for rest of the world towards openness of the
    society  (I am hanging by a thin rope here.  My assumption is that
    the prostitution is legal in those countries.  Please correct me
    if I am wrong).
    
    Personally everyone is entitled to have their own opinion about
    the prostitution as a profession and how they want to view the people
    engaged in it.  
    
    I have this feeling that none of the contributors here have actually
    read the book.  It really saddens me to see one person from this
    conference actually taking pleasure in the fact that the Ms. Sidney
    Biddle Barrows was apprehended. Actually the Sergeant who started the
    investigation, probably did not know what he was getting into. Really,
    how did he expect to get any conviction without jeopardizing people in
    high places is beyond my imagination. Fortunately Ms. Barrows have not
    feared too badly either from this incident.  Her book was on the
    best-sellars list, she is negotiating for movie right and for a
    upcoming TV movie.  Ironically TV producers told her that they could
    not show her employees as happy people! 
    
    I am always amazed at the portrayal of some characters in the Barney
    Miller episodes and real events.  Often times they had episodes
    which were later were duplicated in the real life.  In one episode,
    Detective Wojowhoitch apprehended a high class call girl.  You would
    not believe the people who were calling Barney to make sure that
    she would be released. His phone was ringing off the hook constantly.

    If you have read the "Search for Excellence" and the subsequent
    "Passion for Excellence" by Tom Peters, you would like the "Mayflower
    Madam".  Ms. Borrows chose the one service industry which is most notorious
    for disrespect towards both customers and the servers and proved
    that you can excel in any profession you choose if only you treat
    your people right.
    
- Vikas

    Re: .7
    
    I have not read the book and have no desire to do so.  No, I have
    nothing against prostitution as such, save that it is against the
    law in New York where the Madame was working her 'girls.'
    
    There are many laws in the US with which many of us disagree but
    rewarding people who break them is not a sane means of expressing
    these feelings.  Our country is fast becoming sufficiently lawless
    as to be out of control (try driving in Eastern Massachusetts, buying
    drugs in any city in the same area, etc.).  We should work to change
    laws with which we disagree, not celebrate their being broken. 
    What message does this present to the following generations?  That
    it is OK to ignore laws which you dislike!  Arresting only those
    who serve the unlawful need is not logical, either.  Arrest the
    drug user, the pimp, the 'john' as well the dealer and hooker.  
               
    What do we do for people who break the laws, unless they are poor
    minorities?  We celebrate their accomplishments and reward them
    by spending millions on their books and movies!  One hell of a
    statement to send to our children.
    
    Yes, Vegas is a safe city by US standards but how is this accomplished?
    Are you suggesting all US cities should be managed by the same type
    of people who manage Vegas?

    I haven't read the book either.  But here's an opinion.
    
    We should legalize prostitution for both sexes.  Also, we should
    require prospective prostitutes to be fully trained in their art.
    When was the last time someone really made you feel good?  I mean
    really feel good.  That's an art.  If it could be taught in
    professional and thoughtful ways it could be a science.
    
    Taking away the ignorance, filth and uglyness could help eliminate
    the superstition that surrounds prostitution.
    
    We all sell ourselves everyday but for different and acceptable
    reasons.  The acceptableness and difference of those reason can change
    over time.
    
    So let's take the prostitute off the ugly street and turn them into the
    archetypal lovers we all desire.  Believe it or not this was done in
    the ancient past with temple prostitutes making money to support the
    temples activities. 
                      
      Mikie?
    

    This is not relevant to the base topic, but several people have
    mentioned it, so...  Prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas.  It
    IS legal in several counties in Nevada, but not the one containing
    Las Vegas.  I've read of several scams there where men are separated
    from their money because they believe otherwise.
    					Steve

    
    
    	RE: last entry
    
    
    	Prostitution in Clark County (Las Vegas) is illegal, however
    	the authorities tend to look the other way. Most of the ladies
    	of the evening in Vegas work out of licensed escort agencies.
    	As long as it's behind closed doors and not on the streets,
    	it's no big deal.
    
    
    	C.
    
    

    re: .8
    
    Bravo!  I have to agree that Ms Biddles-Barrow should definitely
    not be allowed to profit from her illegal activities.  "Getting
    away with it" is too much praised and admired in our society.
    

    
    I think it would be a good idea to make prostitution legal so that,
    hopefully, both the prostitutes and their customers could be better
    protected.  There has apparently always been a need for prostitutes
    whether people believe it to be morally right or not, so it may
    as well be dealt with in a realistic, sensible way.
    
    I, however, cannot relate to prostitution from either side.  In
    .9, you say, "When was the last time someone really made you feel
    good?"  Well, for me, it was the last time I made love to someone
    I was in love with.  Paying a strange man, regardless of how handsome,
    to have sex with me wouldn't make me feel very good.  I'd rather
    spend the money on a new dress!
    
    Lorna
      

    What about the teenager who runs away from home because there is
    no love and when she gets to a bus station in New York, Boston,
    or wherever, there is a "kind" gentleman there to "give her love".
    She has very poor self image, low self esteem, feels unwanted but
    this man (or woman, I guess) is going to fill the basic needs of
    clothing, shelter, food and a little bit of affection.  This can
    and most often times will lead to this child engaging in sexual
    activities at an early age.  When she learns that she can get money
    for what she does with her body, "she begins to enjoy getting up
    for work in the morning"?  NO WAY.  The only one that enjoys her
    work is the "man/woman" getting almost 50% of the earnings.  That's
    call exploitation.
    
    This same girl, now in her 20's, decides she doesn't need this
    "man/woman" to have some of her earnings so she "leaves the nest"
    and ventures out on her own.  She "sells" the goods she has to
    "customers" but deep down inside, this "woman" is still the little
    girl looking for affection and having her basic needs met.  Only,
    she can afford a luxury apartment because she makes thousands of
    dollars and doesn't have a brain to spit on.  Or if she had one,
    she isn't using it. 
    
    I think it's high time that this society rid itself from the "oldest
    profession in the world".  Someday I will have children and they
    will ask me "mommy, what is a prostitute?" and I will tell them
    but I will not go and tell them to go down to the Federal Building
    (or whatever) and take out an application.  Once you legalize it,
    you put it in the "Jobs Available" category down at Unemployment
    Offices or Job Matching Offices.  Anyone want to try putting this
    down on a resume?

I haven't yet read the book, but I'll be looking for it.

If Biddles-Barrow really did treat the women working for her in a
professional manner I can't see how she was exploiting them. It sounds like
they were all exploiting the clients.  Good for them.

I think the laws against prostitution are just another case of oppression of
women by the patriarchy (which is almost, but not quite, synonymous with
men.) Especially when you consider that the laws are selectively enforced
against women, i.e. johns and pimps are not arrested or prosecuted nearly to
the extent that prostitutes are.

I think people should have the legal right to have sex with whomever they
want whenever they want (in privacy, as long as no one gets hurt.) I don't
think prostitution should be legalized, however. I think it should be
DECRIMINALIZED. The difference is if something is legal the state controls
it. If it's decriminalized the state just doesn't care about it.
Prostitution is mainly controlled by organized crime anyway. So legalizing
it wouldn't make very much difference. 

I have an acquaintance (friend-of-a-friend) who works in "the sex industry"
in a massage parlor, and she's also an activist with COYOTE (stands for Call
Off Your Old Tired Ethics) which is a women's-rights organization that
focuses on the problems of prostitutes. I respect and admire her, and the way
she's chosen to live her life. She's no less moral than I am just because
she makes her living as an outlaw. Too bad she doesn't rake in the bucks
like the Mayflower Madame.

Don.

    I too feel prostitution should be decriminalized. As long as only
    the women pay for the crime it's an unfair law. Here in Colorado
    Springs they (police) have periodically arrested the men involved
    but it's still unusual. The most effective bust they had was when
    they printed the names of the johns in the newspaper. That slowed
    things down for a few weeks.
    
    On the side of whether this is a good life style..if you talk about
    high priced call girls I don't think they are too unhappy. On the
    other hand streetwalkers have a terrible life. I have worked the
    emergency room in three states (as an x-ray tech) and streetwalkers
    are frequent customers. Most of the ones I saw were beat to a pulp
    by their pimps. One woman I remember had her jaw broken because
    she held out $5 from her pimp. Talk about a withholding tax! These
    women pay and pay. Liesl

    RE: .14
    
    Please do not put down a profession just because we would not engage
    in.  I remember someone from this conference saying "I would kill
    myself before doing <insert_your_most_hateful_activity_here>" and then
    getting quite a beating for this.
    
    I agree that I would not like anyone having to resort to prostitution
    but if two consenting adult decide to engage in sex and money does
    change hands and it is done in private, I do not believe that I have
    any right to tell them not to do. 
    
    Your example about the runaway teenager is invalid.  We are discussing
    adult behavior.  Certainly a teenager is not one.
        
- Vikas

    RE: .17  If you continued to read further, I mentioned that this
    "teenager" grew up to become someone with poor self image and self
    esteem but was making a fast buck and didn't use her brain.
    
    I wonder if any other noters feel that perhaps Mayflower Madame had
    a "brush" with these "early sexual encounters" and *learned* from
    her experiences enough to "start her business".  Anyone read the
    book that knows of her past.  Was she a "hooker", "call girl",
    "streetwalker", "escort" or other?
    

	Prostitution is legal in several European countries; prostitutes
	are "licensed" by the state, which pays for medical examinations.

	Are there any European noters out there from countries where
	prostitution is legal?  It would be interesting to hear of the
	effects/attitudes where legal prostitution is the norm, rather than
	the exception....  Is it still regarded as degrading?  Do the
	prostitutes themselves still end up victimized and/or physically
	assaulted?

    RE: .18
    
    No, she did not have any "early sexual encounters".  She came from a
    "proper" family.  Basically she was working in a store as ware-house
    manager but lost her job when the store went under.  Her friend was
    working as phone handler for an escort agency and was making quite a lot of
    money in answering telephones. Ms. Barrows also joined the agency to
    work as the telephone answerer i.e. customers call her and she acts as
    liaison officer between the customer and the escort. She has to run the
    preliminary checks on the customer, validate his credit card, validate
    his address, make sure it is not set-up and so on. Also she has to
    remember the customer preference, her current "women-power" and
    allocate the "resources" based on the "women-power" of that night. (May
    be there is a lot of market for a good software developer to write a
    decent package for this sort of business to run on a PC :-) 
    
    So to answer your question: No, she never was a "hooker", "call girl",
    "streetwalker" or a "escort". She just happened to be an excellent
    manager and managed an escort service which sold its services to the
    clients. 

    Getting back to your assertion about the loss of self-esteem; yes
    indeed one would lose their own self-esteem if they were forced into
    prostitution but assuming no force were used and all the decisions were
    made by the adult involved, there is no reason for the loss of
    self-esteem for the individual. The loss of self-esteem and poor
    self-image is due to the way society looks down upon prostitution
    as a profession.
    
    The last thing one would accuse of Madam Mayflower is that she lacks 
    self-esteem.  She is quite proud of herself and she should be, given
    the fact that she was head of the most successful escort service
    ever operated in NYC. 
    
    How much brain is needed to bag groceries or manage a check-out counter
    at your local super-market?  There are many jobs where minimal brain is
    required.  Frankly to be a successful escort one needs lot more brain
    and personality than an average individual. 

    Grown ups are considered adults unless someone else proves it otherwise
    i.e. by default grown ups are considered adult.  In some cases it
    may not be true but the burden of the proof lies with the person
    who is trying to deny them their adulthood. 
    
- Vikas 

    ok, here goes a touchy one...
    
    re .20
    
    I agree, if the girl does it by choice, she probably won't lose
    her self esteem.  During my rebellious teenage days, I became friends
    with a call girl (not knowing she was a call girl at first).  She
    had no pimp and offered me the chance to get into her profession.
    Anything to be different, I performed an act (not THE act) on one
    of her clients for money.  Did I degrade myself?  I certainly didn't
    feel degraded.  Actually the whole thing seemed kinda funny, especially
    if you saw what this guy looked like.  Afterwards, I felt kinda
    powerful, like I had something I could hold over somebody. In the
    Mayflower Madam incident, the only ones who got dumped on were the
    clients.  I heard a news report that the FBI had her little black
    book.  The blackmail they could do...
    
    

    I got to this rather late, but...
    
    .19 asked for a European view. I am British, living in France.
    
    	In Britain, prostitution is not illegal. There are two related
    offences which are, though, pimping, and any form of public
    advertising. There was (is?) a prostitutes union in Britain, which
    was trying to campaign to have the restriction on advertising removed.
    They have the "catch 22" that a public interview with Miss X, vice
    president of the prostitutes union, advertises the fact that she
    is a prostitute. I am not sure about the advertising, but the fact
    that prostitution is legal, while a third person taking profit from
    it is not, does seem to avoid a lot of the abuses I heard of.
    
    	In France, nothing seems to be illegal. The French PTT (government
    owned) advertises the comprehensive services of its Minitel (data
    terminals) by pointing out that you can even access databases of
    call girls, and gives numbers.
    
    		Dave

In Sweden, prostitution is legal; pimping is illegal.  The streetwalkers
hang out on Regieringsgatan in Stockhlm.  As the name implies, the street
runs past the Parliment.

Since the cops can't arrest the women, or the customers for that matter,
this is the only street in Sweden where stopping is forbidden between
8 pm and 3 am.  So, the give the guys traffic tickets.

Martin.

    
    i'd rather dream of a day when prostitutes were treated with respect
    and their profession thought of as a worthwhile and productive one.
    
    due to misconceptions instilled in me by my parents and teachers
    i would have a great diffulty in maintaining a solid relationship
    (s.o.) with a practicing prostitute. I could, however, have a solid
    relationship with a no longer practicing prostitue.
    and i don't mind (wouldn't mind) ((do i really know this?)) if my
    daughter(s) came home one day and said.....gee dad! i found a great
    way to make money and i enjoy it a lot!
    
    	you're either liberal or ya aint.
    
    one need not waste one's mind as a prostitute any more than one
    wastes one's mind at any other profession.....as far as i'm concerned,
    there are a number of "jobs" that are a waste of a good mind in
    the extent that they don't stimulate or challenge these minds....
    and may even shorten the life span of that mind
    
    	short order cooks at dec
    	janitors
    	military personnel
    	engineers...
    :-)
    
    	certainly prostitution is more stimulating than most of these...
    and more rewarding, less vicsious than...military....
    
    	i dream of the day when someone elses kids asks me....
    	what was a soldier?
    	because he's never seen any because they don't exist.

    

    RE: .24
    
    I agree, with the caveat that women are controlling the situation,
    
    I think that, when women are in control of the time, space, activity,
    price, etc. prostitution is as good as any other way to make a living,
    if one is willing to accept the health risks extant today. I think
    that a lot of the negative attitudes towards prositution comes from
    the knowledge that women can REALLY get their hands on serious money
    and power that way.
    
    I think that's also why it's difficult to keep men out of the
    profession, in the controlling roles. The thought of women having
    that much power scares some men *A LOT*.
    
    Dawn