Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    	Hmmmm....  When you say "every person that carries a pocketbook"
    	-- to whom are you referring?  Are you talking about men and
    	women who carry pocketbooks (and mean to exclude men and women
    	who *don't* carry pocketbooks)?
    
    	A man or a woman who carries a pocketbook is (in my experience)
    	generally aware of what is contained in the pocketbook (or in
    	the wallet, as the case may be.)  Persons who attempt to purchase
    	goods and do *not* know the contents of their money-carrying_device
    	are at the very least annoying and possibly foolish.
    
    	Myself, I have not encountered this problem very often.

    						     Suzanne... ;-)

    i have come across this problem many times.  while your standing
    there waiting for the cashier to ring all the items, why don't
    you try to get some money ready.  Don't wait till the last minute.
    
    shopping stinks bad enough.  Lets not keep others waiting all night.
    
    

    

    sometimes, mr faulkner, it is a two way street, with the cashier
    causing the traffic jam.  How many times when a purchase comes to
    say...$5.02...and you hand the cashier a ten ....and they say "Have
    you got the two pennies?" and watch and appear irratated as you
    fumble in your purse or pockets for the elusive coinage?
    
    of course these things never happen to me, I'm not like that...

    	RE:  .2
    
    	Remarkable how closely your style matches that of the author of the
    	basenote.  I thought he wrote it, in fact.  Hmmmm...

    	RE:  .4
    
    	Men do *too* carry pocketbooks.  Not many or all men (at least
    	not in the U.S.)  In MENNOTES, I believe, there was a discussion
    	awhile back about how common it is in Europe to see men with
    	pocketbooks.
    
    	Well, I guess the point still remains that you worked/shopped
    	in the wrong places.  Where *I* shop, there is an automated
    	check-approval machine (5 or 6 of them in a row) at the front
    	of the store.  When you get to the cashier, the check has
    	already been approved so he/she wastes no time in marking it
    	up.  While he/she rings things up, the shopper fills in the blanks
    	(except for final amount) and signs it.  When the amount is
    	known, the shopper writes it in and the cashier stamps the back of it
    	and sends the shopper on his/her merry way.  Takes very little time.
    
    	Where I shop, the vast majority of people pay their bill in
    	this manner (unless they are at the express line.)  Myself,
    	I have a 6'2" teenager with a hollow leg at home, so I never
    	make it into the express line.
    
    						      Suzanne... ;-)

    "One guy in ten has the money ready," but "the left-over sex is
    less considerate"? I'd consider one out of ten pretty bad odds,
    even if the purse-bearers (thanks for putting it that way, by the
    way!) are even more lax.
    
    I've noticed a similar syndrome, usually in supermarkets. (As the
    majority of supermarket patrons are women, I can't tell from that
    whether the sexes do tend to behave differently here.) Anyway, it is
    certainly annoying - although not as annoying as: 
    
    o People with full carts in the express lane.
    
    o People in the cash-only lane who discover at the last minute that
    they have no cash.
    
    o People who present an inch-thick wad of coupons *after* the clerk
    has tallied two baskets full of groceries. Grrrr... 
    
    -b

    I suspect that the reason that you have only seen women performing
    this sort of behavior is because....
    more women than men do the family shopping
    many women who do the shopping are on fixed budgets and try and
    save money by couponing and watching sales.
    It is not that men don't do this, but rather a much smaller percent
    of them....
    I think this is the response of a person on a tight budget

    Let's see.  In his reply .4 Mr. Faulkner says:
    
    Three guys out of ten will correct miss-rings.
    
    Then in reply .8 he says:

    [I've] never heard a man say "oh, gees you
    rang up my endives at $ 1.19...they're on sale for .89 c [sic]."

    So what's the difference?  Easy.  If it's a *man* giving a correction,
    it must be right.  If it's a *woman*, it can't be.
    
    Try again.  (And this time, try not to suggest that the goods were
    on sale for $.0089.  Any woman knows better than that.)
    
    							Ann B.

    	RE:  .8
    
    	All this anguish in retail stores is caused because "women
    	are women?"
    
    	Goodness, Kerry, I surely do hope this doesn't mean that you
    	feel that women have inherent flaws.

    	RE:  Bonnie
    
    	You are correct.  Kerry probably notices what women do at the
    	stores because women are more often given the responsibility
    	of feeding a family on a very limited budget.
    
    	Also, I'm sure that Kerry (being the strong fan of women or
    	at least appearing to be somewhat obsessed with women) spends
    	more time looking at women than he does checking out men.
    
    						     Suzanne... ;-)

    	P.S.  RE: .10 -- I do agree, Kerry, that in your case -- less
    	is better.  ;-)

    	RE:  .14
    
    	The note I read from Ann did not scream anything (and certainly
    	not "Sexist!!!")
    
    	Please try to keep your comments on what has actually been
    	written and not what you think you heard yelled out from down
    	the hall (by any one of hundreds of people who work in your
    	building.)
    
    	Also, please resist the urge to be clairvoyant.  There is another
    	conference for that.  (DEJAVU)
    
    						      Suzanne... ;-)
    						

                          { A Message From The Moderator }  
    
    A little less heat and a little more light maybe, folks?  Or is
    this the designated Catharsis Note this month?  <--(serious question)
    
    						=maggie

    re -1:
    
    I thought this was titled corrrectly as to the type of note it is.
    
    	-Ellen

     It would seem that Mr Faulkner omitted any discussion about the
     "person" who, having elected to pay by check, holds up the line for an
     outrageous length of time, laboriously penning the information on the
     check, then going through the complex mental gyrations needed to
     subtract $30.00 from the current balance of $86.77. 
     
     Is Mr Faulkner willing to admit that this omission is due to his
     absent-mindedness and failure to tend to details, of which both are
     well-known male traits? 
     
     --Mr Topaz

    	RE:  .20
    
    	Honestly, Kerry, if you think that it's all such a waste
    	of time to note in here, then why do you bother?  (Bother
    	*IS* the operative word here, I might add.)
    
    	You write notes and then challenge us to respond a certain
    	way (then criticize us whether we do or don't.)
    
    	Suggestion -- the next time you write a note and expect 
    	people to respond, tell us precisely what you want us to
    	say (word for word.)  We'll extract it and sign it.  Better
    	yet, we'll just sign it with a mass name that includes all
    	women.  
    
    	Do you want us to say that you are a God and that women are
    	all cretins (or at least every woman who doesn't imitate
    	your writing style and kiss your feet after every word
    	you utter?)
    
    	Is that what it will take to make you happy?
    
    						    Suzanne... ;-)

    Okay.  I'll tell you.  I don't do that.  My wallet is out, and
    either my check is mostly filled out, or I have a good shot at
    exact change in my hand.  Women I have shopped with are similar
    in their behavior.  Many men in front of me at check-out counters
    are slow to pull out their wallets and slow to select which bills
    they are going to use to pay with.
    
    Side note:  When I am in a bank, and there are multiple lines to
    choose from, I choose the line with the highest percentage of women
    in it.  I find that such a line moves fastest.
    
    							Ann B.

    OK. Mr. Faulkner's premise appears to be that, in his experience,
    women tend to be "time wasters" at the checkout line much more often
    than men. [Do I have the gist of it, Kerry?]
    
    Now, since the base note was expressed in a civil tone and, by using
    "purse bearers" rather than "women," seemed to convey a more
    light-hearted note than some of Mr. F's previous efforts, I thought
    it worth a response. However, now that it has sparked a discussion,
    Mr. F. appears to be reverting to his old habits.
    
    Kerry, why does it bother you when someone actually reacts to a topic
    of yours? Did you only want to hear "yes, you're right" replies - even
    if other peoples' experience differs? I'm honestly puzzled by your
    tendency to tell people (including me, on at least one occasion) that
    they must be lying when they are simply recounting their own
    experience. I don't understand your apparent anger when someone
    suggests alternate causes for behaviour you've observed, and I must
    point out that if I say "I have never seen people do thus-and-such" and
    you say, "You're a liar," I'm not going to want to discuss things
    further. 
    
    As for the time-wasters I mentioned in .7, the coupon-holder was
    indeed a woman - but was she discourteous because she was female,
    or just because she was an asshole? The no-cash-in-the-cash-lane
    individual happened to be a man, who not only had no cash but then
    tried to bully the clerk into accepting an out-of-state check with
    no check-cashing card... Was he rude and overbearing because he
    was male, or because he was an asshole?

    Or were both of those people just having very bad days on those
    particular occasions?

    It may in fact be true that the majority of women shoppers are more
    rude and thoughtless than men shoppers, but I can't confirm - or
    deny - that from my own experience. I try to be courteous myself,
    and that's as much control as I have over the situation.
    
    -b

    	Additional helpful hints:
    
    	To anyone of either sex -- the supermarket is not a great
    	place to go if you are extremely pressed for time.  A trip
    	to the supermarket is an exercise in manual control of one's
    	bloodpressure (even if you have all day.)  If you are in a
    	big hurry, you've already lost the game (before you ever
    	walked through the door.)
    
    	It's absurd to blame women for the fact that food-shopping
    	is not fun.  If anything, we should get the most sympathy
    	because we spend more time in hell-hole foodermarkets than
    	anyone.  ;-)  It's not the people who do the shopping that
    	are to blame.  We didn't design the aisles versus the width of
    	the shopping carts (nor did we decide how many cashier stations
    	to set up on a busy Saturday.)

    	Carrying the groceries up from the garage and putting them all
    	away is not a barrel of laughs either.  It rates higher than
    	root-canal work, but just barely.
    
    	Once you accept the fact that grocery-shopping is one the
    	necessary evils for people who eat at home -- go into the market
    	with a big smile on your face expecting the worst (but knowing
    	that it's just one of life's little pains and is no reason to
    	wage full-scale war on people who are just as miserable in there
    	as you are.)  ;-)
    
    	Also, if you do get tied up in a line -- read all their magazines,
    	or balance your checkbook, or listen to your walkman, or blow
    	into your SO's ear.
    
    	If someone in front of you happens to spill a little change
    	into the bottom of her purse and has to dig for a minute --
    	don't have a coronary.  
    
    	Life is just way, way too short to get upset about such little
    	unavoidable annoyances.
    
    							Suzanne... ;-)

    For goodness sake, is *EVERYONE* in such a terrible hurry?  No matter
    how dismally dim and slow the person in front of you at the checkout
    line is, the five minutes delay is not a major event in *my* life.
    You get ulcers if you care about the small sh*t that much!
    
    Gloria

    Well, the reason I'm usually in such a hurry to get through the grocery
    store checkout line is that it's a real challenge to keep my 3-year-old
    out of the candy they so graciously line the checkout area with! Of
    course he's also the most common reason I'm guilty of the behaviour
    Kerry complained about originally -- it's hard to get your money out
    while you're trying to keep a toddler out from under the wheels of the
    next carriage. 

    --bonnie

    

    
    ...and a muzzle

    re 347.32 'leash'
    that is a whole another controversial subject (see parenting) :-)

Just to register my opinion - I believe that gender has nothing to do
    with the degree of twitliness many people display in supermarkets.
    Some things occurred to me that I'd care to mention:
    
    One peeve I have about stores  is that often related
    food items are placed extremely far from each other.  Also,
    Marshmallows,  often used in cooking - are suddenly in candy.
     Some sodas are in the soda aisle - some are at the end of the fruit
    aisle (is it artificial or natural?) - granola and sugar-fruit rollups
    are sweeter'n candy, but put with breakfast cereals.  Ethnic main
    dishes are far away from the spagghettio's (so you'd better remember
    what they have where if you want any variety).  Yoghurt is in a
    case by itself 50 feet away from other dairy products.  Raisins
    are not with fruit.  Specials are not with like foods - they've
    wandered off somewhere to grab the attention of those who are perusing
    the meat counter.  The signs they hang at the end of each aisle
    are sometimes helpful - but sometimes "cosmetics" means "cosmetics,
    cleansers, drugs, vitamins, and toiletries", or "juice" fails to
    include anything powdered, concentrated, cartoned, or frozen.  
    "international foods" that fall into almost every category are put 
    in the aisle with pickles and diet versions of every food known to man.
    And then there's the lady with three screaming children who's rushing
    through like a chicken with her head cut off (which i can understand),
    trying to wait patiently while the gentleman in front of her tries
    to explain to the clerk that he really doesn't have 22 items when
    he should have 12,  "Consider all the stuff from the baking/dairy
    aisle to be a cake."
      And how often do people pull out of parking places at the speed 
    of light when you're trying to put your groceries in the trunk.
    
      And how many times has the only parking places in
    the row been filled with carts at random angles.  

    and so on - ad nauseum.....I'll be glad when I get my act together
    enough to devote an hour or two at some point during the weekend
    to get ALL my shopping done for the week (or two!)
    
    -Jody
    

    thanks eagle

	RE: .36

		The scattered distribution of related items in supermarkets
is no accident; neither is the biweekly or monthly rearrangement. Both are
deliberate "retailing techniques" designed to maximize the number of products
one must walk by while in the store. The rearrangement stunt is recent,
caught on big within the last ten years. Probably started getting taught
in Food Retailing 101...

	As for the candy-at-the-checkout ploy, its originator should be...
well, some stores have actually begun to sport no-candy checkouts, though.

	BTW, while we're on the sex-differences-in-the-supermarket theme,
I avoid *male* cashiers and *bagpackers* like the *plague* particularly
of the teenaged vintage. The sex-difference here is substantial and the
females are *way* ahead for the most part. The guys think it's a proof
of manliness to get a month's canned goods into one bag...along with
the strawberries, of course.

	My other data point on this topic is the local ice-cream stand.
Walk up to any of the gals, order four different cones, she comes back
with the four and the total price. With the guy, order four, he walks away,
comes back with the first, "...and what else did you want"? List the
remaining three, get one more, "...and those last two were "? Every time!
Oh, and of course, by the time he brings the last one, I've distributed
the first three out of his sight to my eager party and must replay the
list one more time for a pricing...maybe the guys are all future SW
engineers practicing the recursive approach :-) :-) ...

    I'm catching up with Womannotes after being away at training, so
    I just read the remaining replies from #1-#39 all at once.
    
    Maggie asked us to try to generate a little more light than heat.
    As I read through the notes it seemed very clear that what generates
    heat is *making generalizations*.  
    
    Person A can say "It really bugs me that some women tie up supermarket
    lines while digging for coins and restraining toddlers".  Since
    'some' is the operational word here, most people will nod their
    heads in agreement.  Women who do not do this, have never done this,
    and never plan to do this will not be offended.  Someone may calmly
    add that some men do this as well.
    
    Person B can say "I hate it.  Women do this.   Women do that.  Women
    are ... " and the conference bursts into flames.  
    
    (Kerry, I wish you would consider switching from Person B style to
    person A style unless there is a factual basis for generalizing.
    I would enjoy reading your notes and responding to them if you would
    temper your observations with "some", "many", "all of the women
    in front of me last Saturday" or whatever.)
     
    Some people deliberately generalize to provoke a reaction from others.
    The ensuing argument gets very emotional because the provoker can
    always find one example to support her/his point, and the reactor
    can always find one example to refute her/his point.  (Of course!)
    
    If notes contain blatant generalizations, I think it would be within
    the scope of this conference to identify that instead of reacting
    to them.   I don't think that an argument based on generalizations
    can be won or lost--I think it is much more important to step back
    from it and identify why it makes people so angry.  Generalizations
    are one way that women have traditionally been kept "in their place".
    One of the first things we did in some of the early consciousness
    raising groups was to learn to speak for ourselves and stop
    generalizing.
                                                                        
    Holly
    

    
    
    re. to 0
    
    Why shouldn't I wait for the clerk to tell how much I owe??
    
    can you read peoples' minds ??
    
    Sick and tired of attitudes like yours, don't take everybody for
    granted!!!
    
    ART.