Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    RE: feeling insulted vs. feeling complimented:
    
    If you think the person meant it as a compliment, you should take
    it that way - but if you don't find it appropriate, try to let them
    know. For example, if you've just made a presentation at a group
    meeting and the first thing your boss says is "You certainly look
    feminine in that blouse," you may need to do some explaining. 
    
    I have an unreasoning prejudice against the word "feminine," because
    every time I heard it used as a child it was my mother telling me
    why I shouldn't climb trees, why I had to wear dresses to school,
    why the pink frilly thing looked better on me than the blue-denim
    thing, and why I couldn't become a fighter pilot like my Dad. But
    if I happened to be caught wearing a dress (usually for costume-party
    reasons) and somebody said "Don't you look nice! So feminine!" I
    would thank them politely. 

    To me, "Feminine" means "pink, frilly, decorative, non-functional,
    frail, helpless, sweet."

    Others?
    
    -b

    I agree with .1, which made me very confused about the recent
    conversation about sisters using other women's technical expertise
    to put themselves ahead in a feminine way (boy that word looks weird).
    So, I just assumed it was more like Scarlett O'Hara. Seeming feminine,
    and acting backbiting and conniving.
    	Mez

    I agree with Beth (.1); usually when someone tells me I look "feminine"
    it is my mother-in-law complimenting me on my wool-skirt-that-has-to-be
    dry-cleaned, fragile stockings that develop runs if I walk around
    in them, and frilly blouse that has to be hand-laundered -- all
    normally worn for formal family functions or religious ceremonies
    and not otherwise.  I guess I think of myself as a human being first
    and only incidentally a bearer of two "X"s.  (Of course it helps,
    if you want to view people this way, to be taller than most men!
     Short people, especially short women, have a hard time being taken
    seriously, which is a shame).
    
    /Charlotte

    
    
    	Feminine = just being a woman.
    	Feminine = just being yourself.
    

    
    I've never had any negative associations with the meaning of the
    word femininity.  All women who like frilly clothes, cologne, flirting,
    etc., are not deceitful and backstabbing.  
    
    Do short women have a more difficult time being taken seriously?
     I'm 5'1" and I didn't realize this.  I wonder if my life would
    have been significantly different if I were 5'9"?
    
    Lorna
    

    Additional explanation: My reactions to the term "Feminine" are based
    solely on my own experience and personal preferences, and are not meant
    to put down anybody who finds it a positive term. (Re .5: not
    sure who you were responding to, but I don't associate "feminine" 
    with "deceitful and backstabbing" - just with "frail and in need of
    protection". And again, that's only what *I* feel when somebody tells
    *me* to "be more feminine".) 
    
    Funny, isn't it, that the most frequent use of the term on TV these
    days is for "feminine hygiene products," easily the *least* delicate
    and frilly of the things that go with being a woman...
    
    -b

    I used to get verbally patted on my head because of my size (5'1")
    also. I found I actually preferred wearing glasses to contact
    lenses because people took me more seriously.
    
    Bobbi I got the same type of reaction when I used to teach Biology.
    "You cut things up?" etc. etc. etc. Or try telling some one you
    butcher your own meat, or help your goat or sheep deliver.
    
    Feminity to me can either be the negative image of weak and helpless
    which I dislike, or a postive image of all dressed up for a special
    occasion which I like. The positive side of feminine also spills
    over to nuturing and mothering in my mind.
    
    Bonnie
    

    I've never thought of myself as "feminine", but more as "female".
    
    The left side versus right side of the brain theory -- the left
    is the creative, intuitive side (i.e. feminine), the right is
    the spacially oriented, motor skills side (i.e. masculine).  Is
    this why many artistic, poetic males are often called "effeminate"?
    
   Gloria
        

    re .5
    Lorna, I'd be willing to bet that your life would have been very
    different if you were just under six feet tall, as I am (not to
    mention how much more you would spend on clothing in the specialty
    stores for people of "our" height when you didn't have time to sew
    your own anymore).  Short men have the same problem, though.  I
    used to work for a man who was about 5'4" who was quite sensitivie
    about his height (particularly since all of his employees were above
    average height).  He used to wear extremely severe business suits
    (navy pinstripes, like a banker) a lot.  Height (or lack thereof)
    is just another one of those things that you have to live with that
    give some people advantages over other people.  I'm glad I'm tall
    because it has been a long time since I had to derail the "cute"
    image (it wouldn't occur to most people to try to pat me on the
    head, for example), that's all.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    s'funny how wide the conversation has ranged in this note.
    
    well if you want a guys opinion I'll give it too you.
    
    I used to work with a lady that was extremely obese. She was in
    excess of 100 lbs over weight. And the comments she got (both behind
    and in front of her back) were ..... she has such delicate feminine
    mannerisms. And she was. And it had nothing to do with what she
    wore....how tall/short/thin/wide/etc....it is a state that exists
    naturally...it cannot be faked...and guys like that trait more than
    any other, maybe because it is passe.
    
    

    
    Re .12, actually I *have* had problems looking for clothes!  Ever
    notice how easy it is to find La Belle France dresses in Size 2
    Petite??  It's not!  They put 2 on the rack all season!  There are
    more size 3's out there than there used to be, but in the "better
    name" dresses it's hard to find a 2P, and they run so big, a 4P
    hangs on me!  Also, Size 3 short jeans are hard to find!  I'm usually
    limited to Chic whether I want to be or not!  So, I think it's only
    AVERAGE sized people who don't have this problem!
    
    It has honestly *never* bothered me being short.  When I was in
    my teens I liked the fact that I got to go out with a lot of *cute
    short guys* that goodlooking tall girls had passed up!  Of course,
    maybe I spent so many years when I was young being bitter about
    not having *large American breasts* that I didn't have any time
    left to worry about being short!!  I've never thought it was fair
    that so many men are apparently obsessed with big breasts - as though
    it were the most important quality to find in a mate!
    
    Lorna
    

    will buying a dress and shaving my legs make me more feminine?????
    
    i thought it was all in my sensitivity and caring that made me
    feminine!
    
    						kelly

There have been many different phases of feminity, and lots of them
have passed to The Great Beyond, thank heavens...

I developed my rejection of feminity based on my mother's assertions
that stealing my brothers' dungarees (I didn't own a pair) and wearing
them was "not feminine".  Neither was climbing trees or making stink
bombs in my closet with my chemistry set.  After that, Mom took all
the 'good' chemicals away from me.

Now that feminity no longer means wearing a dress, pearls, and frilly
apron to make dinner in, I can accept feminity.  Feminity, to me,
means bringing out all my best female qualities.  Like Bonnie said,
it's nurturing and motherhood and gentleness and understanding....

Which I think is unfair because it's true that these are the
qualities I appreciate most in men (well, fatherhood can substitute :*))
and it's unfair to attribute them ONLY to women...

I guess I still reject feminity when it's based on appearance.  When I
get dressed up and feel lovely, I don't feel I look 'feminine'.  I feel
I look 'attractive'... no matter how out of line it is :*))

And I can consider "my, you look feminine" to be a compliment only if
the person giving it to me does not have some outmoded method of
believing that's what defines me as a woman!

I've got woman qualities I ain't even USED yet!!!

Bugs

    
     The first time I met my wife, we were sitting around drinking a
    few beers (A few!!) and shots. Here she was tossing them with the
    best of us, dressed in blue jeans, and producing some "awesome"
    burps.
    I have never met a woman as much as a woman as my wife! She is
    completly at ease with anyone.
    She can sit down with my motorcyle friends and with my work peers.
    
    Sip wine or shoot beers, she just has it. To me femininity is a
    woman being able to enjoy herself, her sex, and have you enjoy it
    too!
    
    Cal.
    

    re:15 
    
    would shaving my beard.......
    

    
    Re .17, well, this certainly just goes to show that people are all
    different, doesn't it?  I realize that we are all human and everybody
    has to burp once in a while, but I can't say that I find it attractive
    in either sex!  If I burp in front of a guy the first time I meet
    him he can pretty well take it for granted I'm not interested in
    *what* he thinks of me!  That may not be right, but it's true. 
    It's just part of what I was brought up to believe is polite behavior.
     When I like a person, I want them to think well of me, and I've
    never considered burping to be impressive.
    
    I've been called a "militant feminist" because of some of the stuff
    I've written in this file, but I may as well admit right here and
    now that I've been shaving my legs and underarms almost daily since
    I was 13!  I'm not ashamed of it either!  I just like that smooth,
    silky feel.  It makes me feel feminine :-), ya know.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Re -1, well, Marge, I try, though heaven knows where it's gotten
    me.  We women were raised to try to please weren't we?  Although
    I haven't worn white gloves since high school class night when it
    was required.
    
    Lorna
    

    It isn't a definition to speculate that femininity is the opposite
    of maculinity, because masculinity is equally non-precise.  Could
    femininity be defined as what you combine with masculinity to produce
    androgeny?

    its what you want it to be! state of mind,state of being,etc...

    RE: .13  What are feminine mannerisms like?  Did she hold up her pinky
    when she drank tea?  Was she just very graceful?

    I think I've decided I don't like the word feminine because it carries
    too many sexist meanings with it.  Instead of saying I feel feminine,
    I think I'll say I feel sexy 'cause that's the only female feeling that
    I can distinguish from other human characteristics that we all have (and
    in this I'm assuming that women feel sexy in a different way than men, and
    that I'll never get to know).

    ...Karen

    re .18 
    
    Kerry,
    
    Shaving your beard would definitely *not* make you feminine!
    

Personally, I've always been very impressed by a woman who can really 
burp.  I can remember the name of the very first woman I heard burp out
loud; we were sitting in the basement bar of the Drake in Amherst (Holly 
did you ever go there?) drinking beer with some male friends.  It was
music to my ears.

I was raised to "swallow" them.  And now, I very rarely burp.  Get the 
hiccups alot though!

CQ

    Sure did.  Burping was the second favorite indoor sport at the Drake.
    (At least the Rathskellar part...).
    
    The first favorite was making out in a booth!

    
    Re .18, .28, no, Kerry, I'm sure *nothing* could make you feminine!
    
    Regarding the burping, you would be greatly impressed by my roommate's
    12 yr. old daughter.  She could put almost any man to shame.
    
    Lorna
    

    I feel like a woman but I'm not too sure I'm feminine. I suppose
    riding could be called a feminine sport since so many more women
    ride than men but when I'm with the horse I'm blue jean'd and dirty
    (I once had a guy tell me he didn't like women that smell like horse
    sweat, guess that's not feminine). Liesl

    I am frequently told that I am very feminine, mostly by men. 
    
    Now, I rarely wear skirts, dress mostly in jeans, can have a pretty
    foul mouth, wear makeup infrequently, don't mind getting sweaty and
    dirty working outside, don't think much about my appearance and
    like being with people. (On the other hand, I love to dress up, like
    wearing makeup, love glitz, design clothing, am a very good cook,
    etc.).
    
    But I am always very aware of being female. I am very comfortable with
    my sexuality; I don't abuse it, but I almost always use it 'cause it's
    a part of me. I think what people pick up on is that fact. I am
    a sexual being and my sexuality, whether overt or not, is almost
    always present.
    
    I think other people think I flirt a lot (well, sometimes I do)
    but I don't do it as often as people see my behavior as being
    flirtatious. I simply want people to be comfortable around me--I
    use a lot of direct eye contact, joke a lot, smile a lot, have a
    very open body position, and am very comfortable with touching and
    being touched.
    
    I am a person who likes herself and loves being a woman. Is that
    femininity, femaleness, or wholeness?

    Tamzen

    These comments are about the word "feminine" rather than the concept
    of femininity.  The word is paired with the word "masculine".
    
    It seems to me that some of the ambiguity about this pair of words
    is based in two different definitions of them.  One definition uses
    the notion of what I am not, i.e., I am masculine so feminine must
    be what I am not (or perhaps don't want to be).  The other definition
    revolves around what I am attracted to, i.e., I am attracted to
    certain attributes in the opposite sex, so those attributes define
    femininity/maculinity.
    
    For me, there is some conflict between those definitions.  For almost
    everyone, those definitions tend to polarize attitudes and perspectives.

    re -1
    
    There need not be conflict between those two words.  The word
    "androgynous" comes to mind.  The American Heritage Dictionary defines
    the word as "having male and female characteristics in one".  I
    don't believe that the majority of people have either *just* feminine
    traits or *only* masculine ones.
    
    	-Ellen

re .39 (Faulkner)
    
    Look at the actuaries findings
    increase in heart troubles
    increase in blood pressure
    lowered life spans
    higher ulcer rates
    
so, what does that mean?  You think that women who aren't healthy aren't
feminine?  I'm not sure that I care about femininity, but I *am* sure that
this is another subject altogether.

I don't think that they're "traditional men's problems."  They're more
likely symptoms of people living unhealthy lives.  How about working too
hard, worrying too much, eating badly and not exercising?  Those aren't
unfeminine things, either, just un-smart.

>    What I meant by my statement was.......there is nothing feminine
>    about struggling for power.
>    Stressing out because of employees problems, deadlines, goals and
>    other w*rk related problems.
>    Since women have entered the work force they are encountering all
>    of the problems that men have been experiencing for years.
    
So, who cares?  Obviously I don't want to be what your definition of
feminine is.  I'd rather have some of the problems that men have had
for years than what women have had for years.  It's a matter of freedom,
I have the choice to work in industry now and I'll take those problems over 
cleaning house and other "feminine" jobs any day.

...Karen

    re .-1
    Well, that is what I finally did, as I said someplace earlier in
    here (and got flamed at for it...oh, well!): I hired a housekeeper
    who comes in once a week and does that stuff.  It turned out to
    be a good move, both in that things get cleaned every week no matter
    how busy we are, and I have fewer allergy attacks since I do not
    have to deal with some of the things I am allergic to myself anymore.
    On the other hand, it costs money, but so does hiring a car repairman
    or a plumber (both jobs I don't do for myself anymore, too).
    
    I thought of a POSITIVE way in which I feel "feminine" rather than
    exploited: when I go folk dancing in a full floor-length skirt
    (cotton, needs no ironing: I made them so that they would be long
    enough for my height, and I know better than to make stuff that
    has to be dry-cleaned; dancing is the only time I willingly wear
    a skirt) and embroidered blouse, and dance the woman's part in a
    hambo (where the woman is off-balance most of the time and has to
    rely on her partner to complete her pivot; it is also very hard
    on the left calf muscles!).

    At the party on the 16th, some of you may have met my friend Suford.
    For those of you who did not, and because she jogged my memory, I
    would like to place here her definition.
    
    feminine - the quality of killing quickly and without pain.
    
    Example:  "Emma Peel is very feminine."
    
    						Ann B. for Suford L.