Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Rita,
    My husband and I are in a similar situation now.  He's been out
    of work for almost a year, and has been helping with a good portion
    of the household chores.  Note that I said 'helping', he never quite
    took the responsibility for doing the household stuff; I've always
    been the one responsible for that.  But I did find that he was more
    than willing to do it, as long as I told him what to do.  Now he's
    just gone back to work, and we are dealing with going back to things
    the way they were.  He's testing the waters right now, because he's
    got this notion that since he's working, I should be doing those
    'wifely' duties, something I'm not quite willing to go along with.
    What I've been doing that is working is to continue to give him
    a list of what needs to be done.  That way, he is still helping
    and I don't end up doing it all.  It works for us, but I think you
    are in a different situation.
    
    I think you're going to have to get used to doing things on a different
    schedule, like doing the laundry on the weekend instead of during
    the week just because there won't be as much time for those things
    during the week.  And you might consider doing something like whoever
    gets home first starts dinner, and the other does the dishes.  You
    can also trying splitting up the chores along the lines of who likes
    what and rotating the stuff you both hate.  I've found that my husband
    doesn't mind doing laundry, but hates grocery shopping (and always
    buys everything but what's on the list :-)), so I do the shopping
    while he does the laundry.  That kind of coordination gets the chores
    done and leaves us time to do something together.
    
    I don't know if this helps you, but at least you know you're not
    the only one in this situation.
    
    Cathy 
    
    P.S. I don't know if you remember me, but you and I went to WPI
    together.  My maiden name was Cathy Ricci.
    

    As long as he s returning to work and you will have more 
    cash, why not consider a cleaning service to do the mundane 
    chores that your SO did for so long.  What is left on the list
    of chores after the service has done their duty can be split between
    you two.  The services are reasonable and cooperative.  For a fee,
    they will do lots of chores.  Good Luck.

    I strongly recommend getting a cleaning service.  My husband and
    I both work and we have a cleaning person come to our house once
    a week for 2 1/2 hours.  What she gets done in that time would take
    us three days and two fights.  It's wonderful to get home after
    a rough day and have the house immaculate.  She's also available
    to do laundry, errands, etc., but we only contract for basic cleaning.
    This costs us $25 a week (which is cheap; most places were a half
    day minimum for $40-45) and it's well worth it.  Other than that,
    we make lists (actually, I make lists) and split everything down
    the line, except for grocery shopping which we do together.
    
    Good luck...
    

    
    Re .4, it is interesting and enlightening sometimes to hear how
    the other half lives!  If my apartment seems dirty (to me and to
    other people who see it) it's because I work 40 hrs. a week as does
    my roommate and neither one of us makes anywhere near enough money
    to hire a cleaning service - even between the two of us.
    
    It must be nice to be part of the privileged class.  (What the media
    calls yuppies, I guess.)  Personally, I would die before I would
    clean any of your houses.
    
    Lorna
    

    My God, look at the bigotry!
    
    "I'd die before I'd clean any of your houses..." - What does this
    mean? Is housecleaning a substandard profession, worthy only of
    scorn? Should those of us who make use of it drop out at once, and
    abandon our housecleaners to whatever other jobs they can find?
    
    And why is it that the tone seems to indicate that cleaning one's
    own house is admirable, while cleaning someone else's is despicable?
    
    Or does it just mean that those of us who have chosen to hire out
    some jobs that we'd rather not do ourselves, are a bunch of lazy
    good-for-nothings? Why then, we must all carry our garbage to the
    dump ourselves, so those poor put-upon garbage collectors don't
    have to do it.

    And all this reference to "maid service" - come now! We all know
    that the majority of people who hire out to do regular housecleaning
    are female, but that doesn't mean that we should rule out the men
    without thinking! 
    
    Sorry about that, but I felt a bit put upon - that "abusing the
    third-world" schtick really burns me.

    Back to oppressing the masses,
    -b

    I hired a housekeeper for two hours a week a few months ago, and
    I felt kind of funny about it, too.  My mother (who hasn't worked
    outside her home since I was born) is one of those immaculate
    housekeepers: she vaccuums every day!  Her floors shine!  There
    is no accumulated frost in her freezer!  On the other hand, Paul
    and I work, leaving home between 8 and 8:30 in the morning and getting
    back between 6:30 and 7 in the evening, and our weekends are full
    of volunteer activities and things.  I do not like clutter, so it
    never gets much of a chance to accumulate, and the laundry gets
    done on a regular basis.  What caused me to finally shell out the
    $$$ to get the place clean as well as picked-up was that several
    of my firends are very allergic to cats, and these nice people all
    had a terrible time spending much time in my house because of the
    "cat pollution", since we very very seldom vaccuum either the carpets
    or the upholstry.  Now that I have gotten used to it, the housekeeper
    is a good deal.  My housekeeper, who also cleans the homes of several
    friends (including one who developed an allergy to his old tomcat,
    which he wouldn't dream of giving up), is an energetic woman a few
    years older than I am.  She is very efficient, and does as professional
    a job in her field as I would hope I do in my own.  It's a good
    deal for both of us.  Don't knock housekeepers; these hard-working
    people are performing a useful role.
    
    /Charlotte
    

    
    Re .8, I am entitled to my opinion.  I do not look down on housekeepers
    or cleaning people.  *My mother* used to do that for work, and I
    saw the way the upper-middle class people condescended towards her.
     When I was born my father was earning a living as a janitor in
    a public school system.  I also remember the condescending way that
    the teachers and school principal treated him.  I made up my mind
    that nobody was going to get that chance with me and that's my choice.
     If I'd rather die than be a housekeeper that's my business.  Some
    of you women professionals talk as though *you'd* rather die than
    be secretaries.  How do you think that makes me feel?
    
    I just happen to be going through a very rough financial time and
    it's difficult for me to imagine having enough money (even $50 a
    month! - hey, that's my electric bill) to spend on hiring somebody
    to clean my house!  To me it's like something the Rockefeller's
    would be doing, and serves to point out the economic difference
    between professional people and divorced women with no skills other
    than clerical (which is what I am).
    
    Why get mad at me?  Maybe you should pity me.  Maybe I'm just stupid
    and lazy and deserving of your compassion - if you have any.
    
    As for the 3rd world stuff, can't you take a joke?  That's what
    everybody in notes asks me when I get upset, like Andy Leslie and
    his stupid poodle jokes in Soapbox.
    
    Lorna
    

    I'd clean other people's houses before I'd die.  (or even be a
    secretary :-) - sorry, Lorna, I couldn't help returning the joke
    I'm incorrigible).  But take care of other people's *kids* - forget it.
    I'd rather die. :-)
    
    	-Ellen

    re .11:
    
    Lorna, of course you're entitled to your opinion, and I wouldn't
    dream of contradicting it - but what you said in .6 wasn't that
    you'd rather "die than be a housekeeper", but that you'd rather
    "die than clean any of *your* houses" (emphasis mine). To me, this
    is a major slap in the face, a thrown gauntlet, a spit in the eye.
    Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but using "your" made it a
    personal remark rather than a general statement of your preferences.
    I'm sorry if I seemed to have no sense of humor, but that line turned
    the whole thing sour.
    
    There are jobs that - actual starvation aside - I'd "rather die"
    than perform. I'd rather dig ditches than answer telephones,  for
    example, whether as a receptionist or as a vice-president. (I have
    this sort of phobia about phones.) I hate wearing dresses and wouldn't
    work anywhere where it was required. As it happens, doing housecleaning
    is something that I might very well do if for some reason I couldn't
    get work programming. (The software industry's no safety net; I
    keep waiting for somebody to perfect a code-writing program and
    put us all out of work.)

    But... I share the feeling of "vague unease" about having actual
    hired help in the house. It took a major situation with my husband
    (who never thinks about chores until forcibly reminded) to get us
    to spring for the cleaning bill. No, they don't do everything I'd
    like, but they do enough to keep things from getting totally out
    of hand, and hubby pays his half of the bill instead of not doing
    his half of the chores.

    As for "maid service," it is too a sexist term, even though the
    companies use it for themselves. (I use "Merry Maids", and gag every
    time I write their check.) The idea is that "maid service" is the
    definition of a type of work formerly done by maids - partly true,
    although I don't know of any maid services which will come help
    you dress for dinner. Some "maid service"-type work was also done
    by butlers and footmen, but you seldom see an ad for "Fast Footmen".
    If we want folks to stop thinking of housecleaning as the exclusive
    province of women, we ought to stop referring to it by a term that
    implies such.

    No flame, just fact.

    -b

    
    Re .12, I guess "I'd rather die" is a bit of an exaggeration to
    make a point.  If it came right down to it I'd probaby change my
    tune fast :-) .  (I also hate babysitting other people's kids!)
    
    I guess we can just use my earlier notes as examples of how bitter
    low-paid jobs can make people !!!  It can make perfectly nice people
    get upset and appear rude!  Sorry.  (Anybody wanta clean my apartment?
     It's a mess!  Kitty litter in the rug and everything!)
    
    Lorna
    

    Hi Lorna,
    
    I'd be glad to trade - but I think, given the size of my family,
    I'd get the better of the bargin. 
    
    I actually tried to get a professional house cleaner to do my house
    abut a year ago. She turned me down because the house was too messy!
    
    Embarassed? you bet....
    
    Bonnie

    Ah,to have someone else clean my house.  Don't care who does it
    as long as I don't have too.  I figure I work sooooo many hours
    and have so many responsibilities, that rather than fall into  
    the super mom trap, I'd rather deligate!!!!!  That was one thing
    I learned here at DEC.  FYI>>>> I had someone who cleaned houses
    come by everyother week for $5 an hour, did the most wonderful job
    on the place, to include dishes, pick up disaster areas and other
    "stuff" that would take me all weekend to do.  I contacted Goodwill,
    and there are a mulititude of people who for one reason or another
    cannot keep or get full time office type jobs but have the right
    to live on something other than social security or welfare.  They
    take great pride in their accomplishments and do a great job.  So
    thats where I go if I am in desperate need of someone who would
    like a "job".  
    
    re: babysitting???? yech, I don't like babies,(all that wettness)
        I like older kids like mine.  
    
    chirp
    
    
    

    I contracted to have the house cleaned (2 1/2 hours one day per
    week) and cancelled after one month because the work wasn't to my
    satisfaction.  Two succeeding attempts, one with additional time,
    also failed for the same reason.  (House is 7 rooms.)
    
    Those of you who do not live with children, how many hours a day
    or week does housekeeping take?

    Well, when I did it myself, it took about three hours, which usually
    were while the laundry was running anyhow, but as I got busier and
    busier and more and more allergic to various chemicals and things
    (sigh...), it got done less and less often.  Paul is a very meticulous
    housekeeper, so it took him quite a bit longer.  It takes several
    whole days to ready the house for Passover, but that is a special
    deal anyways, and a great deal of work.
    
    The housekeeper I hired works two hours a week.  She is a professional,
    so she does things faster than I do them, but she will not get to
    everything every week, of course.  She dusts everything upstairs
    (downstairs sometimes; we do not use that area much in the winter
    because it is hard to heat), cleans the kitchen appliances and counter
    tops, cleans the stove and its vent hood, cleans the bathroom, cleans
    the kitchen floor every other week or so, and vaccuums up all the
    cat hairs.  My friends who recommended this woman have her come
    in for several hours twice a month, during which she also does the
    laundry (Linda has one of those jobs where she has to wear a suit
    every day so there is a lot of laundry; John is a semi-grubby engineer,
    as Paul and I both are).  So, how long it takes depends on what
    you want done.  If some of the things you want done are only needed
    sometimes (like carpet shampooing or window-washing), you can often
    hire a crew that specializes in those jobs and get them done cheaper
    that way.
    
    By the way, we have two cats and no children, and the house has
    5 rooms upstairs and one (pinball machine room) in the basement
    that are usually cleaned, and only one bathroom.
    
    /Charlotte
    

    re .20
    Send this man right over!
    
    Seriously, though, unless he really moves at near-light-speed, he
    just isn't going to get to everything in one hour.  He can't move
    that fast, and some things require additional time beyond what it
    takes to do them (such as wating for the floor to dry before moving
    the furniture back into the kitchen).
    
    I talked to a bunch of people here at work before hiring a housekeeper,
    and determined that the people who didn't think it was worthwhile
    after hiring one tended to be the people who were hoping that the
    housekeeper was going to be able to organize things of theirs (usually
    papers) that they never had time to do themselves.  This doesn't
    work out; my housekeeper cleans around any accumulated clutter (which
    I try to keep to a minimum anyhow).  Of course, you could hire a
    part-time secretary...?