Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Here are some things I might do:
    - Use the revelation as an opportunity to think about the relationship.
    - Decide whether I wanted to continue being in the relationship
      (does this action cause unbearable hurt? is the relationship
      basically good? in general, am i happy in the relationship?)
    - Figure out whether the other person wanted to stay (ask about
      desires and plans, etc.)
    - Talk to friends; get support.
    - Probably get some kind of counselling to help make a decision.
    - Make a well-thought-out decision and stick to it. I'd take my
      time so that I'd know I wasn't acting out of pain or a desire
      for revenge.
    
    Best of luck

    
    	I have only one answer for this question, be it done by
    	male or female.... Dump him/her and move on!!
    
    	Having an affair to me is one of the worse things a person
    	can do to another. If you really loved someone, there is no
    	need to fool around on the side. If a person has been involved
    	in an affair for sometime before the partner finds out, then
    	it's deciet plain and simple. I never did buy the line "well,
    	it just kind of happened.", it DOESN'T happen if you're not
    	looking for it to. I can make allowances for just about anything,
    	but cheating isn't one. The way I look at it if you want to
    	go, then be up front and tell me then go, with my blessings.
    	Don't waste my time and yours by trying to keep it from me
    	and lie to me, if you don't want to be in a relationship
    	be adult enough to say so.

    We promised each other a lot of things when we got married --
    loyalty, friendship, understanding, support -- but we didn't
    promise that we'd tell each other everything and we didn't promise
    that we'd never have sex with anybody else.  So whatever else an
    affair would be, for us it wouldn't be cheating. 

    There are too many variables in human life, too many situations
    that get out of hand, too many parties with too much alcohol and
    too many opportunities, too many friends who need support that
    turns into hugs that turns into  . . . whatever.

    And too many times when you really love two people.  
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know what I'd do. It would
    depend so much on the circumstances.  I'm sure my reaction
    wouldn't be nearly so philosophical or generous as what I say
    here.  I'm sure I'd be hurt and feel I had failed in some way ...
    but maybe I wouldn't. 

    --bonnie

    With three responses in we have only had one vehement...hang the
    cheater.  I think we are getting better.
    
    Having sex with someone else can happen for a variety of reasons
    and may not necessarily be premeditated.  In my viewpoint it is
    not the worse thing that can happen in a marriage.
    
    I would prefer a monogamous relationship, if something happened
    and I realized there were problems I would not pack my bags...I
    would talk it out and then make a decision.
    
    I have seen so many good marriages go down the tubes for a very
    small indiscretion.  "Cheating" comes in many forms and there 
    doesn't always have to be an "other woman".

	I have no personal experiance with this happening, but I would
	seriously consider why the spouse told me.  The motivation behind
	the telling of the affair would indicate a lot about how the
	spouse really feels about me.  Was it to hurt me?  To make them
	feel less guilty?  To tell me they no longer loved me?  To tell
	me that the marriage is in trouble and that they want to work on it?
	Once I really know where my spouse stands in this marriage, than
	I can work on my feelings.  I really have no idea how I would
	react.  I think you have to get over the hurt before making a
	decision.

	Of course I've already told my spouse how much his having an
	affair would hurt me, so if he did anyways, there would be a
	sense of betrayel that would also have to be dealt with.  Does
	he really love me, could I ever trust him?

	...Karen

    
    re:.3
    very wise words...I just hope when/if it happens that my spouse
    and/or I will be able to remember them...thanks!
    

    I don't know what I'd do. I can tell you what I'd like to *think*
    I'd do, though. Talk with her, find out *why* she was having an
    affair. Maybe it's something that I'm doing or not doing that's
    causing her to look outside. Maybe its something I can change. It
    may be that your spouse has fallen out of love, or wanted some
    variety in his sex life, or any one of a number of reasons. You
    have to find out the why before you can decide on the what.
    
    I couldn't disagree more vehemently with .2 that you should
    dump him with no ifs, ands, or buts.
    
    --- jerry

    
    I've been a read-only of this file for a while now, but this topic
    forces me to reply. Nobody knows what they would do in any given
    situation unless that situation has already arisen in their lives.
    But to all of you who have said you would talk it out, examine the
    relationship, etc., take it from one who has been there: when it
    happens, all you know is that basically you have been LIED TO
    REPEATEDLY by the one person in the world whose trustworthiness
    was absolutely essential.
    
    A spouse having an affair is NOT just a sexual betrayal. In fact,
     if things have gone that far the sexual part of the marriage is
    probably a pretty dead issue, at this point. An affair is a callous
    disregard for the other partner's feelings; a series of lies; and
    a blatant thumbing of the nose at both the other partner AND the
    relationship. 
    
    The fact of going to bed with someone else is not the death knell
    for a relationship - the dishonesty connected with this act is.
    
    Nancy

    Re .8
    
    I have to wholeheartedly agree with Nancy.
    
    I never thought of myself as gullible, capable of being easily duped;
    but being so wrapped up in the failure of my marriage clouded my
    reason and vision.  Finding out there was another woman wasn't a
    wound to me sexually (it hadn't been good or existent for ages)
    but intellectually (pride if you will) -- how could I have not seen
    it, known it without it being thrown in my face.
    
    I tried the sensible, logical route -- talk with me, work on our
    problems; go to counselling with me, work on our problems.  It ended
    up as leave her or leave me, you can't have both!  He opted for
    the latter, only I left.
    
    Eight months of separation found us back together again.  I forgave
    the indiscretion (after all, it was partly my fault) but could I
    ever forget?  Could I ever trust again?
    
    The answer in my case was NO.  Partly because he couldn't be satisfied
    with only one woman.  The second time around I saw it coming and
    put him out -- for good.
    
    I felt stupid, betrayed, and LIED to.  You don't react in your normal
    manner when faced with this -- guaranteed!
    

    I can't keep quiet on this.  
    
    I too have been through this.  My husband married me WHILE he was
    having an affair.  Our sex life was fine.  In fact it was great!
    He led to me and everyone that attended our wedding,(except his
    lover, she was there)
    
    It was an experience that I do not want anyone to have.  It was
    the total deception, to me, my family and friends as well as to
    his family and friends.  This was not my first marriage nor was
    it his and there were children on both sides involved that were
    probably hurt the most.
    
    No, I agree, DUMP HIM.  I hung around too long trying to work things
    out, making excuses for him to myself prolonging the pain.  It was
    not worth it.  He didn't have the same values I did about honesty.
    
    
    
   
    
     
   

    .11 seems very clear cut, but not all examples are going to be
    quite so unambiguous. 
    
    For example, suppose you work in a group that has both men and
    women at the same level, working on the same task. You've
    developed close team bonds with most of the people you work with,
    and one of them has become a good friend.  As soon as this job's
    over, he's leaving for a wonderful new job in another facility. 
    
    It's nearly time to ship, there's one bug you just can't find, and
    you and your good friend are working your tails off trying to fix
    it -- long hours, meals snatched at the vending machine or the
    nearest golden arches.  And at last you find it.  You fix it. And
    it WORKS!!!!  You hug each other in jubilation.  Maybe you kiss.
    It feels so good to have accomplished something together like
    this, you're tired and your resistance is low, you haven't been
    home enough to get any sex, and you've always liked and trusted
    your friend, and he's leaving soon anyway . . . 
    
    Well, you swore you'd always be faithful to your husband, and you
    still love him dearly.  This didn't really have anything to do
    with him, did it?  It was just one of those things.  Wrong, by
    your moral standards, but you certainly don't love this friend.
    And it didn't even lead to anything.  Probably doesn't even mean
    there's anything wrong with your relationship to your husband. But
    what do you do now? Do you tell your husband? What would that
    accomplish?  It might ease your conscience, but at the cost of
    inflicting pain on him.  Are there kids to take into account?
    True, you should have thought of that before you flopped onto the
    floor under your desk in panting haste, but you didn't.  Now what? 
    
    I wouldn't tell and I wouldn't want my husband to tell me if
    something like that happened to him. 
    
    --bonnie    

    
    re:.12
    
    To me, an "affair" is quite different from what you describe. In
    fact, my present husband and I have discussed this situation (or
    something similar) quite often and have decided that, although we
    would never PLAN on it, it is possible for something like this to
    happen. In that case, we both decided it would be best to spare
    the other the pain of a "true confession" session and put it behind
    us and go on with the resolve NEVER to see the "one-time" love again.
    
    However, an affair is completely different. First of all, it is
    ongoing, meaning at least a commitment of  one's time if not an
    all-out emotional commitment. Second, and most important, it is
    a deliberate, on-purpose, the-hell-with-everybody-else type of action.
    
    I would hope that I would be able to resist what you describe. But,
    if forced to choose between that and an affair as the least
    deliberately hurtful, your scenario would win hands-down.
    
    Nancy

    
    	RE: .12
    
    	Bonnie, I have found myself in just a case, but I DIDN'T act
    	on it. In my mind acting on the impulse of desire/lust would
    	have been the same as an on-going affair. It may have not been
    	"love" with the other person, but still would have been a big
    	lie to my partner. Maybe I'm not the norm, I don't know, but
    	I do know myself and couldn't bring myself to do it.
    
    	 Turn it around, how would you feel if that happened to your
    	hubby? Would you be able to just shrug your shoulder and say
    	"well, it's just one of those things that sometimes happens"?
    	I always thought that, that is till it did happen, then I felt
    	used, lied to, the whole bit!! When it does happen the mind
    	doesn't look at it in a constructive manner, indeed all it can
    	see it the pain and lies. You do find yourself starting to
    	wonder about all the other times "it just might have happened".
    	You spend alot of time wondering if this was the only time it
    	happened, or was it all a big lie from the start.
    
    	G_B

    RE: .12
    
    I sure hope that the man in my life never allows this to happen.
    If it does I do not want to know about it.  I do not think he would
    put himself in such a situation.  He is honest to himself as well
    as to me.
    
    I agree with the .13 and .14.  I know myself and know that I would
    not take the chance of ruining my relationship just for a fleeting
    pleasure.  It is to important to me.  I respect myself and him too 
    much.  I never want to hurt him and that is one of the most cruel
    ways to hurt someone.
    
    SO I SAY, think before you act.  You may ruin something good for
    even if it is never told to the mate it is always there between
    you.  I don't think the relationship can ever be the same once 
    fidelity has been abused.
    
    Just my values!
    
    Sue

    It gives me great comfort for the moral future of our nation to
    know that so many of us are so incapable of sin that we really
    can't imagine any circumstances under which we would do something
    that we might regret later.
    
    I wasn't talking about the husband in my example.  I was talking
    about US, the women in this file, the ones who seem so certain
    that we're incapable of momentary lust.  I was trying to look at
    this question from the other side, if it was me or you who
    slipped. 
    
    Are we all so perfectly convinced that there are no circumstances
    that would jeopardize all our good intentions? 
    
    I certainly don't intend to put myself in a situation like
    I described, either.  And I'd like to think I'd be strong enough
    to say no.  But if I'm not, I certainly hope I could find some
    forgiveness somewhere.
    
    --bonnie

    Re .17, don't get too comfortable about the moral future of our
    nation, Bonnie, there's still a few of us out here who are quite
    capable of sin :-).  Seriously, though, I agree that some of these
    replies have been a might smug.  
    
    Lorna
    

    Now, don't judge the notesfile by a few replies!  Also, we should
    watch who we're calling smug.  There are quite a few topics on which
    I used to be smug, now I'm wiser.  And after all, this was a topic
    asking "what would you do"--an invitation to speculation.
    There're probably some who'd not feel so comfortable saying what 
    they'd done--though just possibly it's largely out of fear of being 
    condemned by the yet smug.   :-}

    It seems to me that if one is looking for a reason to terminate
    a relationship, an affair provides a great excuse.  If one wants to
    maintain a relationship, an affair is insufficient reason to 
    terminate it.
    
    	bruce
    

    
    
    Smug?  Why is is 'smug' to have firm values and to expect
    loyalty from your mate?
    
    So many of those replying took on so much responsibility
    and/or guilt for the irresponsible actions on the part of
    another!  "I would try to work out the problem"  "I would
    wonder how I had contributed to his/her infidelity"  etc
    etc....lets face it, the deceiving partner certainly chose
    the WRONG method for correcting a possible problem in a
    relationship!  Shouldn't that person be the one trying
    to establish communication, and work out a possible problem?
    
    What would I do?  Pack my suitcase and leave within 30 seconds
    of finding out!!
    
                      Deborah
    
    

    Yeh, "smug", "smarmy" and the like are a bit hard to hear when you're
    giving your best shot, folks.  Be gentle.                 
    
                                                in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

    I think the "smug" comes from believing one's firm values will always
    be true when they have yet to be tested in real life.  It's also
    descriptive sometimes of one who decides they have a higher moral
    platform than someone else, especially when combined with the former
    (that is, one who decides they have a higher moral platform than
    someone who has actually experienced a weakness).
    
    But your choices are yours!  After all, in some people's experience,
    packing up and splitting immediately may indeed be the right solution.
    
    Thinking about the situation may be another solution, although I
    detest the what-have-I-done-to-cause-the-infidelity stuff--this
    is so often used as a punishment for women--that it's really they're
    fault.  Nonsense.  Men have as much ability for making moral decisions
    about their lives and taking responsibility as women have.
    
    There isn't any one rule to follow.  Certainly hindsight after a
    disasterous relationship may lead one to decide that if they'd left
    that day they found out about the infidelity, they'd have been happier:
    but who was to know that at the time?  The variety of responses
    in this note are good, because we can show a spectrum of valid
    behaviors to each other.
    
    In my own life, I dislike deceit, although, as Miss Manners,
    to be deceived is the human condition.  This does not mean you have
    to approve of all deceit, although it is a word to the wise that
    one should not be hideously shocked...although I doubt it'd be a
    good idea to follow that advice by always keeping a bag packed just
    in case...   :-)  :-)
    
    						Lisa

    PS  oops!  I wasn't calling anyone in particular "smug", except
    myself, on numerous past (and probably future, <groan>) occasions.
    
    I would like to urge everyone not to condemn anybody else's choices
    in dealing with infidelity, in this notesfile.

    I feel that granted whether it is the woman or the man the
    indescretion has still been done.  The question to look at then
    I feel is why was it done.  If there was something lacking in
    the relationship did the the other person know about it and
    not do anything to remedy it.  If that was the case then you
    sort of allowed the groundwork to be layed for something like
    this to happen.  Either way I don't think a marraige that has
    worked should be thrown away that easily.  There is a lot of
    hurt when a trust has been violated as would be the case, but 
    it can also be used as a stepping stone to now correct whatever the
    original problem was.  This reply is not meant to insinuate that
    the partner is at fault for what you did or did not do.  Two wrongs
    still do not make a right. Sometimes though it is just a lack of
    communication that can lead up to it...

    There are two points to consider for those who feel that they
    know themselves too well to succumb to a fleeting desire:
    
    You may well have that moral fiber. Maybe it's just that you
    haven't been tempted *enough*. Regardless, the plain fact is
    that there are people who for whatever reason just simply *don't*
    have that fortitude. That doesn't mean that they are bad people,
    just weak people. Weakness has never been a sin. You talk about
    *your* hurt. How about the other person's? Maybe he or she told
    you about the affair because of guilt. Maybe he or she is hurting
    with the knowledge of having "sinned". *You can't know*! If you
    refuse to talk it over, then you are denying *your* commitment
    to the relationship. Remember the traditional wedding vows: "for
    better or *for worse*". Talking may not accomplish anything. It
    may make things worse. The cheating spouse may indeed be nothing
    more than a slimebucket. You still have an obligation to *try*
    to work it out, or the whole relationship was meaningless from
    the very start.
    
    Second point: Just as it's easy for us to say that we'd be nice
    and reasonable as long as it's only hypothetical, it's easy for
    you to say that things don't "just happen" when you've never had
    things "just happen" to you. It's essentially a theological point.
    
    --- jerry

    Another interesting point arises.
    
    Those who are in the "pro-talk_it_out" camp seemed to have couched
    their responses in the same spirit in which the original question
    was asked: "What would *you* do...?" They've described what they
    would do, or think they would do, in the given situation.
    
    On the other hand, the "anti-cheaters" camp seem to be couching
    their responses in the form of advice to the questioner. Not "I
    would dump him," but "You should dump him!"
    
    What significance that may have I leave as an exercise for the reader.
    
    Another thing to consider.
    
    Any of you may have been in the situation, tried to talk things
    out, and fail to arrive at a satisfatory answer, and so you ultimately
    left (or threw the toad out). That's fine, but remember, there are
    just as many people who have *successfully* talked things out. Just
    because you weren't able to doesn't mean that someone else can't
    or shouldn't try. There are no absolutes when it comes to human
    relationships.
    
    --- jerry

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ===================================================================
    
    Well, I'm seem to be the only one in this file who'll admit to having
    had an affair, so it seemed tactful to enter this anonymously.  I felt
    that with all the self-righteousness flying around, somebody has to do
    it! 

    I've been on both sides of it.  I had an affair that was really a
    desperate attempt to communicate that something was seriously wrong
    with my marriage.  Admittedly it may be a bit like overloading on
    sleeping pills in order to let anyone know you've got a problem, but
    communication wasn't a strong point in the relationship at that time.
    I've never been much of one for deception, so that phase of it didn't
    last long. Neither did the marriage, but it was doomed anyway. 

    One of my parting gifts was the admission from my husband that he had
    had a brief affair with someone extremely close to me -- I wasn't so
    much hurt by him as feeling betrayed by her.  Ironic that to this day,
    I consider that breach of etiquette by someone who should have been "on
    my side" and respectful of my "territory" to be the deeper wound.
    Ironic also that although I've been the married woman having an affair,
    I have terrible scruples about being a "homewrecker" myself. 

    I had another affair as a way of ending another live-in relationship I
    desperately wanted to get out of, but didn't have the guts.  I was able
    to use my "confession" as a way to break things beyond my feeling
    obligated to repair them.  That makes me somewhat suspicious whenever
    anyone wants to clear their conscience by getting everything out in the
    open -- honesty isn't always a kindness, and it isn't always intended
    for the benefit of the one being informed of the "truth". 

    Sexual fidelity has different meanings to everyone.  I think the
    monogamous romantic ideal is in general at variance with many people
    real feelings and experiences, but our institutions and expectations
    don't allow much for reality.  This doesn't mean one has to take an
    indulgent attitude -- if you feel betrayed, the damn it, you feel
    betrayed, and you should act on what is significant to you. It is
    important to sort out what the actual meaning of the affair is in your
    life and your relationship and act appropriately. 

    I no longer subscribe to monogamy as a way of life, and I strive for
    honesty in my relationships. This is actually much more work that the
    conventional way of doing things, believe it or not.  There are times
    when I yearn for simpler solutions, but I refuse to take a trip to the
    that fantasyland... 

    In general, I agree with Bruce in .20, if I wanted to end a
    relationship finding out my spouse/SO was having an affair would
    make a wonderful out.  If I wanted to maintain the relationship
    I would be hurt and jealous, but I wouldn't pack my bags and stomp
    out without giving a person that I loved a chance to explain himself.
     
    I, personally, find it difficult to understand how a person can
    walk away from somebody they claim to love without at least giving
    that person a chance to explain.  We are all human and life can
    be very difficult and complicated at times.  If others find the
    word smug to be offensive, I find it sad that some people can be
    so ready to give up on people they are supposed to be in love with.
    
    I *have* been on both sides of this issue.  I've felt hurt and I've
    felt guilty, and I really have no desire to feel either way again.
     
    As to how I would act in either situation in the future would depend
    on so many variables.  It would depend on how happy I was with the
    rest of the relationship, and whether or not I still loved the other
    person and he still loved me.  As a former SO once said to me, "Don't
    ever tell me if you have sex with another person.  Just tell me if
    you stop loving me."
    
    Lorna
    

    
    At the risk of being "smug". . .
    
    In the begining of the relationship it should be made clear to the
    partner that cheating (once or more) will TERMINATE the relationship
    REGARDLESS of the circumstances.  Once this is made clear if your
    (my) partner does cheat he/she knows that they are ending the relationship.
    
    If there are problems in the relationship both partners should know
    the time to talk is BEFORE.
     
    
    There is no way in hell I want to be in a relationship with someone
    I can't trust.
    
    To all you in the 'lets talk it out' or 'maybe it was my fault'
    crowd don't you realize this attitude will just get you sh*t on
    throughout life?  Think about it.
    
                        - Al

    

    why not, in the beginning of a relationship, make it clear that
    having sex with another person is irrelevent? you have only cheated
    when you have broken the rule...no rule, no cheating, no guilt...
    
    perhaps what needs to be said is that marriage (or any other long-term
    relationship) tends to have a multitude of unspoken assumptions
    built in. to my mind the most dangerous (and telling) of these have
    to do with possesiveness, usually of money or of the 'sexual person'.
    we've talked a bit about money. it's disturbing enough when people
    get that gleam in their eye talking about MY money. it's very
    disturbing when people talk about MY spouse, MY permanent sex-partner.
    (it's really frightening when people talk about MY kids) 

    back to the question...a marriage is a contract. unfortunately,
    as suggested above, it is a contract wherein there may be a great
    deal of fine print that is indecipherable at the time the contract
    is entered into. if an 'affair' (a vague term; we seem to have quite
    a few definitions even in this discussion) is determined to be a
    'breach of contract', i would still hope that i would realise that
    the contract itself is by its very nature flawed (as, perhaps are
    we) and would show as much mercy, forgiveness or understanding as
    possible. i utterly reject the notion that an 'affair' should be
    an automatic 'death sentence'; that is simply adding more pain and
    cruelty to an already difficult and unpleasant situation.
    

    
    
    It is not "smug" to be very firm about one's values.  Agreed,
    if fidelity is a critical issue, one's partner should know 
    this from the outset.  Given that criteria, a partner who is
    unfaithful to me (note: MY OPINION) has shown that they do
    not value or respect my values, ie, ME.  
    
    Several have stated that those of us who 'know' we would not
    be unfaithful (betray or deceive) may not have been sufficiently
    tempted.  It is much deeper than that.  I have been on the receiving
    end, and I am quite clear on this:  I will NEVER bring that pain
    into another person's life.  If my partner really loves and values
    me, then he will not allow 'temptation' to risk the destruction
    of his relationship with me.  We all have control over our biolo-
    gical (and mental) urges.  
    
    As far as not telling your partner?  I find that not only deceit-
    ful, but potentially health and/or life threatening for the partner!
    If my spouse had sex with someone else, he would OWE me the consider-
    ation of letting me choose to have intercourse with him again! 
    I am trusting him with my health every time we make love, and if
    there is ANY possibility of my contracting AIDS, or any other disease,
    I want to know about it!!
    
    My philosophy is:  if what you are doing is something that you would
    be ashamed to tell your wife, or your parents, or your child-then
    ask yourself why you are doing it!!
    
    Deb
    
    

    
    re:.35
    
    	I don't think you get the point. Your only on this earth so
    long. I want to spend my time with someone I can love and TRUST.
    If someone proves they are not worthy of being trusted then I no
    longer want to spend time with them. I will probably still love
    them (love is usually not logical) but I am not STUPID enough to
    want to make myself miserable wondering what my partner is up to.
    
    I 'll say it one more time. If someone sh*ts on me once why give
    them the opportunity to do it again.  Your attitude will only bring
    misery.
                          
    I am all for communication. BEFORE.
                                
    I don't think you should feel 'sorry' for me. I am not the one whose
    going to be miserable.
    
    	- Al  

    statements of the type "i feel", "i think i would", or "i've had
    the experience, and..." are appropriate here. telling others how
    they should or will feel is not. please limit your discussion to
    how *you* feel, and avoid discussing how *other* people react.
    
    liz augustine
    co-moderator 

    
    If my spouse were having an affair, It would end our marriage.
    Period! I have totally devoted myself to her and I would
    expect the same from her. I (we) Have very old fashion values
    and faithfulness and trust are two of the cornerstones of our
    marriage. I agree with the previous noter who said that the
    time for communication is before an affair takes place.
    Also, though some may doubt me, I cannot be tempted to be
    unfaithful to my wife, under any circumstances. 

    A couple of months ago there was an article by Joyce Maynard in
    Woman's Day magazine on why wives have affairs. Some of the points
    that she made were that the women she interviewed by and large had
    happy marriages and that the affair was due to some other kind of
    lack in their life...such as distess with a job, or problems with
    teenagers etc. I will see if I can dig out the article and put more
    information in this note.
    
    Bonnie

    I agree with Al.
    
    I want all lines of communication kept open and honest.  If something's
    going to happen, I want to know beforehand.  I have said this to people
    with whom I've had relationships.  If you're curious about someone
    else, or interested, or more...tell me first.  I don't want to hear
    about it afterwards.  We'll talk about it.  If it's what you really
    want, maybe it's a possibility (of course, maybe I can't deal with it
    right now, or maybe I can't deal with your wanting this *particular*
    person....).  Can you tell me why you want to do this?  Is it some
    reflection on me?  Is it one of those irresistable biological urges?
    Do you think it will be a one-shot deal, or a longer term thing?  Maybe
    we should be thinking about ending this relationship, or changing
    its groundrules or boundaries or definition...
    
    Whatever it is - it's best to talk about it beforehand, before any
    damage is done.  A very close friend of mine found out recently
    that shortly after he left for college this year his father confessed
    to his mother he had been having an affair behind her back for 6
    years.  Much ugliness and divorce ensued.  I think not telling someone
    what's going on is tantamount to betrayal, and I'd rather hear about
    it before and have it sting, than hear about it after and have it
    stab and twist...

    we're all human, and no person or relationship is perfect.  There
    is always communication to straighten the creases though - and the
    above doesn't mean I'm a doormat, it just means I realize things
    can change (and often do).  I think "wanting someone else" is a
    sign that something is changing about a relationship...then the
    two of you must decide if you want to allow the relationship to
    change - how it could change - what impact this would have on the
    two of you (and your family, if you have one) and your future together...

    -Jody
    

    If I found out my husband was having an affair, I don't think I
    would be capable of moving beyond it and trusting him again.  Fidelity
    is one of our "rules"; my husband is very clear how I feel about
    this; and if he chose to have an affair anyway, I would feel terribly
    betrayed.
    

    Fidelity is not one of our rules; I think I could handle it
    pretty well if my SO had sex with someone else.  I could
    handle it less well if I felt he were making an emotional
    commitment to someone else that endangered our relationship.
    But I don't know for sure--it hasn't happened and may never.

    But I've been on the other side.  My first husband and I
    married when we were 20 and in college.  By the seventh month
    of our marriage, I started having an affair with a fellow
    student, who was a graduating senior that semester.  Maybe an
    affair doesn't "just happen"--but that's sure what it felt
    like.  My sex life with my husband got better than ever.  But
    I also knew it would hurt him terribly if he ever found out--
    and it's ridiculously easy to carry on an unsuspected affair
    when you're a student. 

    But by some months after my affair was over, it was getting
    pretty clear that our marriage wasn't working for other
    reasons.  Our marriage did break up.  I don't know if my
    affair was a sign of trouble, I don't know if we might have
    been able to work things out if I'd said "I'm tremendously
    attracted to this person" beforehand.  I do know telling my
    spouse after would have been solely and only to hurt him. 

    But in other relationships confessing an affair may mean "I'm
    needing something in my life, but I don't know how to talk
    about it or even what it is."  I guess in that kind of
    relationship I'd try to at least give the cheating spouse a
    chance, to try and find out what needs weren't being met.  It
    might not have anything to do with sex; it may not have
    anything to do with my not perceiving my spouse's needs.  If
    my spouse doesn't know what they are, or how to tell me, how
    can I do anything?  I'd try, real hard, to listen and
    understand, because I know how easy it was for me to have an
    affair once, and how terribly tempting it sometimes is for
    me, even now in a much stronger, happy marriage.

    -- Linda

    I can't tell you how I'd react, only how I HOPE I'd react.
    
    It seems to me that finding out your spouse has been unfaithful
    is a time to start being very selfish, and looking out for what's
    best for YOU.  In that regard, I'd have to try and figure out whether
    ending the relationship is the right thing to do.  That would depend
    on both the circumstances and on the relationship.
    
    I went through the breakup of a marriage.  If you haven't experienced
    it, I don't believe there's any way you can understand the pain.
    I won't be anyone's doormat, but I believe it's to MY OWN ADVANTAGE
    to avoid going through that again if possible.
    
    With that in mind, if it was just an indiscretion, just for sex,
    just a fleeting thing, with no emotional commitment -- I don't believe
    it would be the right thing for me to end a relationship I treasure
    with a person I love very much.  It would qualify as cutting off
    my nose to spite my face.
    
    On the other hand, if there WERE emotional commitment, or if it
    happened over and over, or if I BELIEVE it will happen again --
    well, that's a different story.  Then I start being a doormat, and
    one person can't love enough for two, no matter how hard s/he tries.
    
    Bottom line is to do what will benefit you most in the long run,
    and that may or may not be breaking up the relationship.
    
    							Pat

    In todays world, If one does stray from bed to bed they had
    better be damned careful.  Who is to say where AIDS lurks.
    
    John Holmes, the porno star, claimed to have had sex with 30,000
    women.  Maybe he was bragging, but if that were true and the fact
    that it takes up to ten years to show up, and if some number of
    these partners were "actresses" then they had upwards of 5 partners
    per day when filming.  That works out to be over 1500 possible 
    infectees in this way, and the whole figure could be upto 50 percent
    of the sexually active population infected by John Holmes. 
    
    I do not like those odds, and I would not risk an affair even if
    one were to be offered.  But since I love my wife and we are very
    compatable, I would not expect either of us to seek satisfaction
    outside of our own bed.
    
    ARE YOU SURE THAT YOUR MATE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR, OR ARE YOU JUST
    SUSPISOUS (sp)?  I HAVE HAD OTHERS TELL MY WIFE THAT I AM HAVING
    AN AFFAIR, I WAS NOT AND I WILL NOT!  If you have seen the Action
    then its fact.  Otherwise just rumor and not worthy of wasting 
    your time.
    
    Dave

    How would you feel if your spouse had an affair, didn't tell you,
    your relationship continued to be good, and you found out years
    and years later?  (After it was long over.)

    The following entry was written by a member of our community who
    wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ===================================================================
    
    I am woman speaking from experience.  My ex-husband was having an
    affair, which I knew about, and he knew I knew about it.  Sometimes the
    three of us would get together, too, and we were good friends.  I
    outwardly didn't mind, but I realized later that I did mind.  I ended
    up having an affair with another of our good friends, which he didn't
    know about.  (he wasn't happy when I suggested the possibility a year
    or so before this happened, so I was afraid to tell him). 
                                                
    We went on our merry ways for about 6 months, growing further apart for
    reasons other than sexual, until he found out what was happening.  I
    was shocked when he told me he thought we should get divorced, and
    after counselling that's what we (he) decided to do.  It was too late;
    we had had problems for a long time and just hadn't been communicating
    at all, he didn't love me as a wife anymore, the works.  And the
    counsellor couldn't understand how I had even let the whole thing
    start, as I had given my permission in the first place. (well, we had
    had problems even before then, and went about solving them the wrong
    way!!).  But the affair didn't cause the divorce, it just made us
    realize we had major problems.  By the way, no one parted on bad terms. 

    So, the moral, for me anyway, is that wanting to have an affair in a
    planned monogamous relationship is a sign of a problem.  I would never
    do anything like that again, after seeing how much it hurt my spouse.
    If my spouse were to have an affair (I know he wouldn't, we've
    discussed this whole thing inside and out, but for the sake of
    discussion) I would take it again as a symptom of a bigger problem, and
    we would decide together to either break up or resolve the problem and
    work harder to keep it from happening again. 

    I'm not new to this conference, but I am new at replying. Having
    read all of the replies, I feel that I HAVE to reply. 
    
    I will not say what you should or shouldn't do in this situation,
    but I will  tell you my story of infidelity. I feel that in a given
    situation it is highly likely to have a one-time fling. But in my
    case it is just impossible for me to do it.
    
    I had been going with my ex-girlfriend for two years while I worked
    security for another corporation. I worked the second shift with
    a very attractive women who would tempt the devil himself. I had
    a very good working relationship with this woman, but at times we
    found ourselves carrying on a little further than good co-workers.
    Now on second shift, as you would know there isn't too many other
    employees around, it would have been real easy for us to go off to some
    part of the building for a quickie. Well we found ourselves in this
    situation. With all the horseplay and fooling around that went
    on, it got to the situation where she made a pass at me. And let
    me tell you that it is damn hard to refuse a beautiful woman's
    advances. We had gotten to the point where we actually started to,
    well you know...It is almost impossible for someone who is in the 
    middle of doing this to stop and say himself'Hey what the heck do
    you think your doing? This little fling isn't going to amount to
    anything. The most it will do is get this woman more interested 
    in you. And how can you have that when you've got the woman you
    love sitting at home waiting for you?' This is very hard to say,
    but anybody with common decency and respect and most of all,
    LOVE, for the one they really love, well these words just seem
    to slip right out. And I found myself saying them.

    I was so proud of myself and overwhelmed that when I got home
    that night, I made love with my girlfriend like we've never
    done before. 

    So if someone is trying tell me that in the situation it is very 
    hard to be faithful, your absolutely correct, but if you give
    in to these urges then your not worth the trouble.

    The victim should not think about taking back the bum, whether
    it's a man or woman. If a person cheats, then they had the 
    intent to cheat because I feel that nobody does anything without
    thinking. So taking him or her back would just add to your
    problems. You could never trust that person anymore, and a
    relationship without trust is nothing. They had the will to
    stray once, who is to say that they won't do it again?
    Someone wrote earlier that one person can't love for the two.
    You could not be more correct!

    Take it from one who was ALMOST there. MY GOD WAS I!!
       btw she is my ex-grilfriend from other circumstanses than
       infidelity.
         
                                                          Tony S.

    Well, we have two pretty clear themes here, don't we? One says,
    "If a spouse or SO strays once, you can never trust them again,
    so you may as well write them off." The other says, "It depends
    on the circumstances, and if the relationship is worth working for
    you should talk it out."
    
    I'm staunchly in the "it depends" category - but then, I'm also
    one of those who believes it is possible to love more than one person
    at a time. My reaction to the revelation of an affair would depend
    on who told me and when, on what I felt about my partner, on the
    reasons given for the affair, and all sorts of other things. 
    
    Oddly enough, the one time I was in a relationship in which I was
    cheated on, the greatest pain came from the fact that he lied about it
    when it wasn't necessary. This was quite a few years ago, when I was a
    lot younger and orders of magnitude more foolish. We lived together for
    a couple of years, during which I discovered that he was something of a
    congenital liar who got a kick out of fooling people. By the time I
    discovered the affair, we'd already agreed to part company, and I
    didn't really care *who* he messed around with; what hurt was that the
    schmuck went to great lengths to keep it secret long after it was
    obviously known. That told me that he either thought I was idiot enough
    not to have seen the obvious, or that he loved playing head games, or
    both. 

    So when people talk about trust being broken, I know where they're
    coming from. I *must* be able to trust someone to be close to them.
    However, to me, trust doesn't mean that the other person makes no
    mistakes, only that they have enough honesty, courage, and respect for
    me and the relationship, to come and work things out. 
    
    If they don't want to work things out, that's another matter. It all
    depends, y'know? 

    -b

    Re: .51
    
    >Well, we have two pretty clear themes here, don't we? One says,
    >"If a spouse or SO strays once, you can never trust them again,
    >so you may as well write them off." The other says, "It depends
    >on the circumstances, and if the relationship is worth working for
    >you should talk it out."
    
    Reminds me of Old Testament philosophy vs. New Testament philosophy.

    
    I wonder if there is any correlation to the two themes alluded
    to in .47 and the two schools of thought regarding whether or not
    some folks need to love someone to have sex with them. I remember
    a topic like that from a while ago. 

    I was of the school of thought 3 years ago that if your spouse was
    having an affair and you found out, the best thing to do was to
    find ways of communicating and finding ways of re-establishing the
    relationship.
    
    My EX-wife of 13 years left me after comming back from a job in
    Vermont as a camp nurse for 3 months during the summer. At the time
    she said she just wanted out and didn't say she was having an affair
    with this other guy during the summer while she was away. So she
    left and went to live with her sister.
    
    A week or two later, I found out that the real reason she left me
    was this affair she was having on the side. I wanted to remain in
    this relationship and was trying hard at the time to establish
    communications with my ex-wife. I suggested marriage counseling
    with her which she refused. Well after four months we got back to-
    gether again. 
    
    We were together after the intial seperation for 5 months and I
    ended up leaving. I just couldn't feel like I could trust her again.
    I tried very seriously to make it work, but in retrospect I would
    never do the same thing again and deal with that pain. No way.
    She, my ex-wife would still demand that she still wanted to be friends
    with her ex summertime fling and still visit him on her trips to
    Vermont to see other friends. Well that was unacceptable to me,
    and I left the relationship and filed for divorce.
    
    Now in my present relationship, I have made it CLEAR, that if I
    find out if my girlfriend has Cheated on me, I'll be out the same
    day. I promised her that and she understands the consequences if
    she does.
                 
    

    I suppose I should point out that in all of my "pro-communication"
    arguments, not once did I suggest that the problem will be worked
    out and the couple will live happily ever after in their continued
    wedded bliss.
    
    Maybe the result of the communication will result in a divorce or
    separation of one sort or another. While I certainly don't wish
    to dismiss the importance of the outcome, I feel that the fact of
    the communication *itself* is what's most important here.
    
    I'm not saying, nor have I previously said, that one should not
    take a hike. What I'm suggesting is that one should not do so
    without at least discussing the matter first.
    
    --- jerry

My feeling is that if a person is capable of having an affair .. it won't
be a once in a lifetime thing... it will happen over, and over and over......

Penny

    Re .57, I don't agree that just because a person has one affair,
    or one "one night stand", that that means they will inevitably have
    more.  They might, but they might not.  I don't believe in absolutes
    when it comes to humans.
    
    When it comes right down to it, any person who is capable of having
    a relationship is *capable* of having an affair.  It's just that
    for some people the right situation comes up and for others it doesn't.
     People have affairs and "cheat" for many different reasons.  Sometimes
    the reasons can be justified and sometimes they're not, in my opinion.
    
    I still think that the situation should be talked out. 
    Even the lowest murderer has the right to try to defend
    herself/himself.
    
    Lorna

    
    
    I've never been in the actual situation, but what I think I would
    do is leave.  Immediately.  I would definitely describe having sex
    with another person as an "affair".  As far as being emotionally
    attached, or not acting on your physical attraction, I don't believe
    that to have a close, emotional relationship qualifies as an affair.
    (my opinion).  You have close, emotional relationships with your
    friends every day.
    
    I guess I'm old fashioned, but I think the sexual part of a
    relationship is the most intimate, precious thing you can give another
    person.  To be with someone else, whether it's a one night fling
    or something that has been well thought out and lasting, is, to
    me the ultimate in deceit. I do not think I could live with that
    person after finding out he had been with someone else.  I also
    agree that if there is a temptation there, then it should be discussed
    well before it's acted out.  If the temptation is there and it's
    talked about and no matter how much the relationship is worked on
    that temptation just doesn't go away, then I would think it would
    be time for us to end the relationship.
    
    I feel very strongly, and have discussed this with my SO and he
    feels the same, that infidelity would end the relationship.  Period.
     I don't think any amount of talk or explaination could help me
    regain my trust in him and our relationship if he told me about
    his affair after the fact.  I really think that if that relationship
    is what I want and if I really, truly love my SO, then I just will
    not succumb to the temptation.  No matter what.  If I'm not  happy
    in the relationship, then we shouldn't be together still.  
    
    Just my opinion,
    Cherie
    

    Cherie, you seem very positive of what your reaction would be, and I'm
    certainly not going to try and convince you otherwise.  You know
    yourself, and that's something a lot of us would like to do better.
    But I'd be curious then to hear your reaction to the second scenario.
     It appears in another note, but in light of your previous response,
    can you discuss it here?
    
    That scenario is:  You spend 30 happy, loving years with that SO.
    The relationship becomes one of those wonderful ones we read about,
    where the two people just become closer and closer over the years.
    Then you find out that 20 years ago, he slept with someone else.
    Once.
    
    Would you end the relationship in that case?
    
    Again, let me say I'm not second-guessing you or criticizing what
    you said.  I'm really just curious to understand better your point
    of view.
    
    							Pat

    I've been reading this topic for a while.  Now I guess I'll add
    my two cents.
    
    My first husband had an "affair".  It was non sexual and I was
    devestated.  The pain came from the betrayal I felt that he would
    take our personal relationship problems to another woman and not
    to me.  I felt totally helpless not knowing what was wrong from
    his point of view and therefore not able to take any action to make
    corrections.  Our marriage did not make it, but it wouldn't have
    affair or no affair.  We did not have a safe and healthy relationship
    or communication system.  The "affair" for us was the tip of the
    iceberg, a red flag for the underlying problems.  We both learned
    a lot and now have new lives, new SO's (we both changed our ways)
    and now are good friends.  That's all we ever should have been.
    
    Dondi

    I'm kinda suprised at the number of people who feel they would leave
    their spouse.  It's not that I figure I *couldn't* leave him if
    I felt I should, I am just suprised that you feel that you would
    just up and leave - just like that.  I believe I would want to see
    if there was anything that could be done to salvage the situation
    before I'd start (or send him) packing.  I'd want to do this not
    only for the sake of the marriage, but also for my own piece of
    mind.  I'd never want to wonder what would have happened if we had
    tried to work it out.
    
    Marion

    re: .60 and others
    
    I also would like to hear how the "automatic-end-it" folks would
    handle the scenario which Pat describes in .60 (also asked by
    Holly earlier).  Also, I'm interested in hearing how those same
    people would react to the situation I suggested in .52 (non-
    sexual "affair").  Do other "go-w/no-discussion" proponents feel 
    the same as Dondi (.61, thanx, BTW).
    
    Steve
    

    Re: .60
    
    Pat,
    
    I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.  I do know that
    if he came to me and told me - today - that he slept with someone
    last weekend, then that would definitely be it. As a matter of fact,
    this note prompted me to initiate a discussion with my SO last nite
    and I posed the same question to him as you did to me.  Would he
    leave me if he found out I had an affair 20 years ago, but we had
    been very, very happy together for 30 years.  He said he would leave,
    that no matter what the reason was that I had still breached our
    "contract", the trust and fidelity we are supposed to have in each
    other.  Another fact to consider...how did he find out I had an
    affair?  That may depend too.  Did I finally "'fess up" or was it
    brought up in a general discussion by accident with friends?  If
    it was the former then that may make the situation a little better,
    but if it was the latter then that would be just as devistating
    as finding out it happened two days after the affair.  If it was
    brought up by someone else, unintentionally for whatever reason,
    then he would feel that I had been trying to get away with something
    for a long time.  That would hurt as much as the actual act of the
    affair.
    
    What would *I* do?  My thinking is along the lines of my fiance's.
     I really feel strongly about communication and trust, like I said
    in an earlier note, and I don't think any amount of explanation
    or reasons could help justify his actions and help me regain my
    trust in him and respect in our relationship.
    
    One point to remember, though, is that I haven't been posed with
    this situation.  It may be very easy for me to say this now, but
    who knows what my reaction would actually be if faced with the
    situation.  We have talked alot about this and I feel pretty confident
    that my reaction would parallel with what I've said here, but I
    can't say for sure.  I like to think I know myself pretty well,
    but if faced with an unexpected situation such as that, who knows.
     I do know that when I'm in a relationship, the other person is
    IT to me.  I've never "wandered" in any relationship I've had. 
    I try my hardest to keep the lines of communication open and if
    I feel he isn't getting what he needs, or if I feel I'm not getting
    what he needs, then we talk.  If the talking doesn't work things
    out,then maybe we need a break from each other. Granted, taking
    a break isn't real easy when you're in a marriage with someone...I'm
    not there yet though, so I don't know.
    
    It's a tough question and there ARE alot of "what if's", but to
    me and to my fiance, an infidelity is an infidelity and that would
    be it.  I may try to find out why he did it, but that wouldn't make
    it any more acceptable or easier for me to live with.
    
    Regards,
    Cherie
    

    
    
    
    I'm one of those on the "walk out, period" side of the fence.
    
    A previous marriage ended after several "emotional" affairs on
    the part of my husband.  The sense of betrayal was too much to
    bear.  The final "friendship", and the deceit and lies, did in
    the marriage, which in retrospect, was doomed anyway.
    
    I have also been had a special person in my life admit to an
    "affair" (which is a very nice word for an ugly, one night of
    sex with someone other than me).  Being proactive, I had told
    this person my feelings on fidelity, honesty, etc. before we
    became involved, and I felt that we had an agreement.  After I
    learned of his indisecretion, I sought the advice of friends.
    I was counselled to "forgive and forget", that it was meaningless,
    people are only human, etc.  I did indeed talk to this special
    person in my life, and agreed to continue our relationship.  How-
    ever, the pain and feeling of betrayal were never gone, and the
    trust was broken.  He did susequently have an 'emotional' affair
    with a past lover (while living with me).  At that point I wish
    I had listened to myself in the first place.  That relationship
    was also irreparably damaged.
    
    Thru those experiences, I've learned some very hard lessons (isn't
    that what life is all about?).  One:  I KNOW my own values and
    beliefs.  I will NEVER bring that pain into someone elses life.
    Period.  There are no circumstances that could sway me.  I realize
    there are those who scoff at moral fortitude of that strength. 
    It is enough that *I* know how strong I am on that point.  Two:
    Those who wish to be part of my life must share my moral values
    and beliefs.  All others need not apply.   Three:  Trust, once
    broken, is gone forever-in me.  Others may have the capacity to
    forgive and forget.  I realize that, because of past hurt, I can-
    not.  Fidelity and honesty are not negotiable with me. 
    
    I realize that I am taking a very strong stand, and that many could
    not deal with such inflexibility.  I also realize that it may be
    difficult, or perhaps impossible, to sustain a relationship under
    my conditions.  I am prepared to forsake a relationship altogether,
    if necessary, rather than compromise my values in the future, and
    go thru the pain and anger again.
    
                       Deb
    
    

    
    
    Deb,  You voiced some of my opinions better than I could, 
    and I especially agree with your point that it is enough 
    that *YOU* know how strong you are about this. 
    
    As an extension of my reply .64 (I think that's the number!),
    I just wanted to mention that when posed with "what would you do
    if", my answers are based on what I believe in TODAY.  It's very
    difficult to second guess myself and wonder how I could react to
    that situation 10 years from now.  I do feel very strongly that
    I would not succumb to any temptations and that if I found out my
    SO had, that would be it.  I think if it's something you discuss
    beforehand, at the onset of the relationship, then both people's
    expectations are set and there should be no question as to what
    is "right" or "wrong" in the relationship.
    
    Cherie
    

    My own feeling in response to Steve Mallett's question is that
    if I found out that my spouse had had an affair years in the past
    after a long and happy marriage there is no way that I would
    walk out. I would look at all the happy years together and be
    glad we had stayed together.
    
    Bonnie

    
    Being one of the walk-out people I'd just like to say that
    Deb Wolbach has expressed how I feel about the question asked
    perfectly. It really has to do with betrayal for me and whether
    right or wrong it is something I'm unable to forgive.

    
    
    regarding finding out after 20 great years in a relationship.
    
    Infidelity is something that happens all the time. Finding out after
    20 wonderful years does not happen very often. I don't think its
    a very realistic for many reasons. The biggest being that kind of
    betrayal is usually an indication of many other problems which
    probably would end the relationship on there own or at least keep
    it from being "wonderful".                       
    
    The main idea behind the 'dump on the spot' argument is to save
    oneself (in all probability) 20 more years of pain and hurt.
    
    I am a firm beliver in 'dump on the spot'. But if I fond out my
    spouse had cheated 20 years early
    
    		and those 20 years had been wonderful
    
    		and I felt that it was the only indescretion
    
    		and she was the one that told me
    
    	Then I don't think I would dump her. 
    
    
    	- Al
    
    . . . I still don't think its realistic  
       
    
    

    THIS NOTE IS BEING POSTED FOR A PERSON THAT WANTS TO REMAIN
                       
                              ANONYMOUS
    
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    
    This is a very touchy topic.  All I want to say, could you 
    picture your spouse in bed with any body else.  Really picture it,
    then think about how you would feel.  For myself this thought
    came to late.  In divorce precedings now, I'd definetely would think
    twice or maybe three times before I would jump bones/beds again.
    
    A long time sexual affair (2 years) to me was not worth leaving
    my marriage relationship of 8 years.  The lose of an emotional 
    bond was and still is devastating.
    
    Yes, flirting and sexual attraction is great with someone besides
    your spouse, because it's challenging and invigorating but is it worth
    your relationship/marriage?
                                                               
    
    

    re: the last several
    
    Many thanks; I really do find the differing points of view fascinating.
    I particularly like Cherie's comments about feeling versus knowing.
    Like most people, there are many things I feel strongly about and,
    based on those feelings, I think I know how I'll act in many situations. 
    
    But occasionally I've found that when hypothesis became reality,
    I acted differently than I thought I would; the predominant feeling
    was that the reality turned out to be very different than how I'd
    pictured it.  Over the years I've learned that this is a fairly common
    experience - particularly when the "ideals" are formed as a youngster
    and the experience base is small.  It seems to me that Cherie's
    approach leaves room for the "this-isn't-at-all-like-I-anticipated"
    factor.  For me, that approach has ultimately worked best and I
    guess that's why I have a hard time agreeing completely with the
    "automatic" approach.  
    
    With a hypothetical situation, it's one thing to say I believe 
    strongly that I will act a particular way, but quite another to say 
    I *know* how I'll act.  Along those same lines, I've occasionally
    found that although I thought there was no situation which could
    make me commit a particular act, I hadn't considered every possible
    situation.  At one point in my life, I "knew" that *nothing* could 
    make me kill another human being; I later learned that I hadn't
    considered all the possiblities.  How was I to know that one day
    the only thing standing in the way of someone slashing open the
    throat of a four year old child would be me and my weapon?  When
    that moment came I realized that, if necessary, I *would* pull the
    trigger knowing that it would kill (the only place to aim was the 
    chest/head and I was carrying a large (.45) calibre weapon).
    
    I guess I just find it easier to agree with the folks who say
    "I've been through it before and I know I'll never do that again"
    than with those who contend "Though I've never been through it
    before, I *know* how I'll act."
    
    Steve
    
    (No, I didn't have to pull the trigger)

    
        If I found out that my spouse was having an affair I would at first
    be extremely angry, jealous, frustrated, and dissapointed.  Anger
    because the affair took place.  Jealous of the other person.
    Frustrated that I couldn't go out a kill him.  And disapointed with
    my spouse.
    
        It is, however, out of the question for me to just "up and leave".
    I will not abandon to resource that I have already invested into
    our relationship.  I would not leave the first time anyway.  
    
        I would want to know exactly why my spouse was unfaithful.
    Perhaps the fault was with me, perhaps I somehow drove her to become
    unfaithful.  I expect that we would have discussed such an issue
    well before any unfaithfulness started but it is possible for it
    to be overlooked.  I would not allow any activity until I understood
    all involved with the affair.
    
        If the affair was a "one-time thing", a mistake, or an abberation
    I would expect it not to happen again.  I would take steps to ensure
    that it wouldn't (**no**, no chasity belts :-).  I would forgive
    the accident but not forget.  I would watch more carefully for any
    signs.  Yes, I would become suspicious.  But, I know from experience
    (not in affairs) that trust can be restored.  
    
        If she continued to have affairs then I would not hesitate to
    take off.  I would try to leave as nonchalantly as I could.  I would
    try to suppress my great resentment.  I believe that If she is
    deserving of some kind of punishment she'll get without my help
    (I don't mean gods or the like!).  Thing just come around after
    a while.  All things work out about even.
    
        Of course I'll be crushed!  The emotional and physical resources
    that I've brought into our marriage will have been wasted for a
    large extent.  We both would have memories of the "good-times" but
    they will be soured by the affair.  It would be a time of great
    sadness.  I would have to move on.
    
        You can only make money gambling when you know when to walk
    away, when to cash in your chips.  I can have a lot of faith when
    I need it (Aside: I used to drive around with my semi-quadrapelegic
    grandfather.  He would reach down with his right hand and laboriously
    lift his foot from the brake to the accelerator and vice versa.
    When we would be comming up on a stopped vehicle I would press my
    feet into the floorboards and want to yell "Step on the GD brake".
    Sometimes I would almost pick up his foot myself, but I never did.
    I never said a word.  And we never hit anything. :-).  So when faith
    is broken it necessary and imperitive that the faithful person make
    up for the lost faith.  Within reason of course.
    
        I would imagine that we all have different levels of faith and
    different levels of tolerance, obviously.  I can agree with the
    opinions of the "walk-out's" as well as the "die-hard's".  But the
    common facet of us all is that we will only stand for so much. 
    
        It is, therefore, important to understand how much your willing
    to take before you have to take it.  Even if the time comes that
    you discover unfaithfulness you may think differently, but at least
    you have though about what to do, even if you do differently.  Who
    knows, I may take off the minute I heard about an affair.  But if
    the love is strong enough, and the right kind, then we'll get it
    all sorted out.
    
        Should you stay or should you go?  Well, if it's not fun stop
    doing it!
    
        I guess I've talked your ear off enough for now.
    
    Be seeing you,
        Dunc
    
    

    re: .69   ". . .don't think it's realistic"
    
    I know two couples for whom the "ancient indescretion" was an
    issue.  The only difference was that it wasn't a twenty year
    situation.  As it happens, in both cases the couples have stayed
    together.  Ironically enough, for one couple it turned out to
    be a powerful bonding agent.  It seems that upon confessing his
    old "sin", his wife was very understanding and forgiving; then she 
    told him about *her* moment of wandering.  After that there was
    a whole lot of "never-*loved*-anyone-else"/"I-know-just-how-terrible
    you've-felt-carrying-around-such-a-weight" type of talk.
    
    My time on the planet has shown me that the world is full of
    improbable/unrealistic/impossible situations.
    
    Steve
    
    Oh yes, to the best of my knowledge, both couples are doing fine,
    although one pair moved to California, and, as we all know, anything
    can and will happen there. . .  :-}
    

    
    for what it's worth:
    
    years ago, I was one of those people who, never having experienced
    the extramarital affair, was very very quick to say "I'd walk in
    a flash", no questions asked...
    
    I was also one of those people who never really thought it could
    happen to me.  Long before I married, my husband and I had talked
    about this possibility, and there was complete agreement that if
    either person had the desire to "be" with someone else, then out
    of repect for both the other person and the love and trust that
    we had shared, that person would leave the relationship before acting
    upon that desire.  
    
    We had a traditional ceremony with the promises to love, to honor,
    to cherish, and to "forsake all others"....
    
    Three years ago, I found out he had a "one night stand"...
    I loved this man, how could I just ignore all the good things we
    shared?  The family we built?  Throw all the good things we had
    away, just for a "mistake" a "moments indescretion"?  I forgave,
    I contradicted and ignored all I believed in, I swallowed more hurt
    and pain that ANY person ever should.
    
    and of course, it would neverr happen again.........
    
    One and half years ago, it did happen again...
    
    and for weeks I asked myself the same questions over and over again,
    for weeks I lived with him, and tried to accept and to understand
    and to listen...  what had I done wrong?  why did he do this?  why
    couldn't he tell me?  what should I do?  
    
    and thru it all, where was the respect promised me?  aside from
    the actual marriage vows, and in a way, more importantly the promise
    made before the marriage?  This man dishonored me, himself, and the
    vows we made.  and I have never felt like such a fool in my life.
    Yes, I filed for divorce a year ago, which by the way, he is still
    holding up (but that's another story) and today I find that yes,
    the pain is less, at first it was virtually every moment of every
    day, I felt as though he had physically ripped my very soul out
    of me,  now it's just about once a week or so...
    
    today, I can forgive the man for being a human being, with all the
    faults and weakness, but what I can't forgive him for is taking
    away from me the ability to ever believe in another person again.
    He knew how much I believed in him, trusted him, believed in "us"
    and it didn't mean anything to him.
    
    Today, I can say from experience, never, never, never again would
    I stay for ONE MINUTE with a person who promised to be faithful,
    but wasn't, and sadly enough for me, I wouldn't believe anyone who 
    promised to begin with...
    
    S. Dionne

    
    re .74
    
    I saw so much pain in the words that you wrote.  I admire those
    who can work things out after one partner has had an affair.
    I was involved with someone who was seeing someone else, and
    not only was it impossible for us to "fix" our romantic relationship,
    we did so much damage while we were "trying" to fix it that we can't
    even be in the same room now.  I think that a couple facing this
    issue should consider seeing a therapist with the understanding
    that they may really need help ending the relationship not fixing
    it.
              
    Justine

The following note is being entered for a member of the community who
    wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    moderator
    
    
	I don't understand.  Why does this hurt?  Why is this something
	to fear?

	I am half of a wonderful marriage.  We love one another.  We
	cherish one another.  We protect one another.  We emotionally
	support one another.  We help one another grow.  We share our
	growth with one another and rejoice in it.  We love, cherish,
	protect, and emotionally support our children, help them grow,
	and share in their growth, and rejoice in them.  We have been
	doing this for half our lives, and the only end I can see is one
	of us dying.  We are incomplete without one another, and we are
	profoundly and joyfully complete with one another.

	But, we married one another.  We didn't buy one another.  I don't
	control her life, she doesn't control mine:  we make our life
	together, a mutual choice and a mutual effort for our mutual
	benefit.  The mutual choice was easy;  the mutual effort is hard;
	and the mutual benefit is incalculable.

	I am not hurt when she has coffee with a friend.  Our marriage is
	not threatened.  There is more to our marriage than drinking
	coffee.  I am not hurt when she plays chess with a chess partner.
	Our marriage is not threatened.  There is more to our marriage
	than playing chess.  I am not hurt when she sleeps with a lover.
	Our marriage is not threatened.  There is more to our marriage
	than sleeping together.

	I see all this hurt and fear -- why?  Why is an "affair" or a
	long-term lover a problem to be dealt with?  Why is a marriage
	supposed to be a cage, a set of boundaries beyond which one must
	not go?  Why not a base, a starting point for further growth?

    
    
    Because some of us believe that sharing an intimate relationship
    with another person is not the same as sharing a cup of coffee.
    Or playing a game of chess.  Some of us believe that we can have
    'relationships' with many individuals, but only one that is in-
    timate.  And some of us take vows, and make commitments, based
    on the above premise.  When those vows or commitments are broken
    we feel deceived and betrayed.  We have shared the deepest part
    of ourselves-and our partner has been less than honest with us.
    
    We have been open and honest and trusting.  Our partners have
    not.  And THAT is what hurts.  The betrayal of trust.  If two
    individuals agree-commit to each other-that intimacy outside of
    the relationship is allowed-then there is no deceit.  The issue,
    then, is with those of us who do NOT believe in intimacy with
    others outside of our relationship.  And in being with a partner
    who betrays that commitment.
    
                       Deborah
    
    

    I have to echo .77's second paragraph, without echoing the first.
    This in no way detracts from either. But, one just can't say, "Sure,
    my partner can promise something and then reneg on it, without telling
    me." Nobody believes that (do they? I haven't read all the replies).
    For instance, if my honey promised to quit smoking (hint, hint),
    and then started smoking again on the sly, I'd be hurt. _Because_
    I think he can tell me the truth about slipping. _Because_ it hurts
    our relationship _much_more_ to conceal the truth, than to smoke.
    
    Folks disagree about how important sex is. But in a loving
    relationship, I think we all agree that what's important to our
    lover is important to us. And vica versa.
    	Mez

    I don't look at sex as a sacred right and "the" most important
    part of a realtionship, however I see it more as a form of "bonding"
    between two people, and I don't mean to use bonding in the sense
    of ownership or control but rather a means of getting closer or
    letting your hair down so to speak I suppose one is a bit vunerable
    as well in making love. Therefore, looking at it this way if my
    SO had an affair it would hurt because that bond built on trust
    would be broken.
    

    re: not fearing affairs
    
    The primary fear that the thought "he's having an affair" brings
    to me is the fear that I shall be replaced in his affections by
    another.  Theoretically, this is not possible if the love is really
    there and really strong, but very few things in this world are forever.
    
    Also, I know that some people can love two people (or more) in a
    couple-y kind of way at the same time, but it has been my experience
    that the feelings are not as strong as when they are focused in
    one monogamous relationship.  The world is an imperfect place, and
    much as it hurts, soulmates are very difficult to find.  The main
    difficulty I have is letting go of the myth that "someday my prince
    will come and whisk me off on his white horse and we will live happily
    ever after and nothing bad can ever touch me after that because
    I will be LOVED".  Relationships take work, they involve growth
    and change, and they involve two mortal human beings, with all the
    foibles they posess.  
    
    The fear of an affair in my case is the fear of something being
    wrong with me...am I not enough...does he want someone else instead
    of me...was there anything I should have done differently...(and
    worst of all)Is this the beginning of the end...
    
    -Jody
    

    Back before we were married, my husband & I discussed fidelity and
    basically agreed that extra-marital affairs were something that
    would hurt _ALOT_ and seriously threaten the relationship.  We planned
    to be together for always and we planned to be completely monogamous.
    And we acknowledged that things don't always go according to plan.
    We trusted each other.
    
    While we shared/share many interests, we also had/have work and leisure
    friendships of both sexes that did not include the other.  Obviously,
    the opportunity is there and the temptation _can_ be present.
    
    Five years into the marriage we were going through some horrendous
    times together -- both of us undergoing serious life-changes --
    and he had an affair.  I did not know until two years later.
    When I found out, it HURT ALOT.  I am profoundly thankful that it
    wasn't discussed at the time because I would have walked far and
    fast without ever looking back.  I am also glad that it was he who
    told me [we were talking about some of the weirdness going on in
    that time of stress].  For a time I questioned and doubted and it
    put a serious strain on our relationship; trust was at a _low_ ebb.
    
    For myself, twice in our marriage I have formed strong emotional
    attachments that could pose problems.  They came at time of great
    personal conflict that nothing to do with my marriage.  They hurt
    my husband ALOT.
    
    While neither of us would define such relationships as 'goodness,'
    we agree that forgiveness per se isn't called for.  All three incidents
    could have ended the marriage.  They didn't.
    
    We have been married 14 years now. We are happy. We plan to be together
    for always and to be 'faithful'.
    
    We trust each other.
    
      Ann

    Thank you .76 .
    
    Our myth of romantic love has caused a variety of distresses: the
    self-sufficient marriage is one of them.  We all Know what we expect
    from the perfect love, we believe we too are worthy of it, we have
    implicit expectations and make explicit vows of remaining True.
    I too have placed sacrifices of my honesty and my self-knowledge
    on the altar of this imaginary Being...  For it is quite an imaginary
    thing if you insist that sexual fidelity is True for all of us.
    Many try, though.  And as always, some find it exciting to break
    with the Law.
    
    What I like so much about the love described in .76 is its giving
    and buoyancy.  Often the language of talking about affairs bleeds
    with words of loss, of something being taken.  What was taken that
    you did not give.  Or was some bargain struck, instead of giving.
    Is it love that trades, favor for favor.  Or a lonely arrangement,
    tangled out of fears.  A love afraid of even one real truth seems
    such a cheap thing.  Do I love my friends less for their missteps
    on an uneven path.  Do I love my sisters less for their choices.
    Do I love my parents less for not being perfect.  My family has
    shared such intimacies with me as cannot be put into vows; to
    love them less for an improper fit with my model would reduce the
    larger part of my life to ashes.
    
    I am a person deeply upset with deceptions.  Yes, I say to myself,
    I would throw him out, I would run away, I would find somebody
    better.  Or I would win him back, erase the past, be better so it
    wouldn't happen again.  (All this and more in a variety of long-term,
    not-yet-married or dating situations.)  Well.  While travelling
    through a small mini-hell about a year ago, I figured out my problem
    was more related to the deception part than the Right Person part.
    While there are people who never stray and people powerful enough
    to keep people from straying, history had shown the odds were against
    me either finding or being one, should I stray outside the shelves
    of the fiction section of the public library.  However, my anger
    at deception was a nearly tangible creature that sat in the passenger
    seat of my car for several months, making comments on the scenery
    and fiddling with the radio.  Really, quite a reliable friend in
    times of need to whom I owe much of my present success, but no one 
    you'd really want to be married to.
    
    I don't know quite what to offer if you too have this anger, or
    maybe it's a fear in your case.  Still, if the barest thought of your spouse
    having an affair makes the world go gray and brings on the vertigo,
    get the map out of that Anger's hands, if you can.  It's not a thing
    to put in control of your life, at least not for long.  If this
    friend attends your wedding, your spouse may fear to tell you of
    thoughts of infidelity, let alone looks or acts, and guilt will
    breed, and we all know how guilt inflames rebellion.
    
    Anyway, I wish all who want it, a marriage as in .76: one that supports
    instead of aggravates fears, one dedicated to growing not rooted
    in insecurity.  What could shake such a steady home.

    
    re:.76
    Maybe this is just utopian thinking, maybe it's crazy fantasy, no
    doubt this kind of thinking will be uncommon in my lifetime;
    but I truly believe this is definitely on the right track. Thanks
    for saying it better than I possibly could!
    

    beautiful!
    

The following reply is being entered for a member of the file who
    wished to remain anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    moderator
    _________________________________________________
    
    
I have been reading this note since it was posted, now I feel it's time 
I entered my own experience here. My husband and I had been married 7 
years at the time and we were going through some major problems.....People 
talk about the seven year itch, well, I had it......... 

I had just started a new job with Digital with a predominately all male group.
I was attracted to a certain guy in the group and ended up having to share
the same office/working space with him. Well, one thing led to another and we 
became very friendly, lunches, drinks after work etc....We seemed to 
have so much in common, we both had graduated the same year, married the 
same year, our birthdays a week apart and, had problems at home. I guess 
I knew he could give me what I wasn't getting at home; attention, closeness, 
sexual intimacy and just someone to listen to me and be my friend.  It 
was very easy for me to fall into this thing people call an "affair". I had 
been struggling to get the fire back into my marriage for quite a 
while. My husband told me he loved me frequently, but there was no 
physical love shown.  So, I turned elsewhere for the physical part, I 
was not looking to fall in love with this person, and that was stated up 
front in our relationship.  We began to have clandestine meetings after 
work, hotels, each others houses.  We gave each other what we had been 
craving for years, sexual excitement, which had been missing out of both 
our marriages.  It wasn't an every day sort of affair, we would meet 
maybe once every four or five months. But having to work next to this 
guy everyday was exciting in itself.  The glances at each other in 
meetings or just the thrill of having him brush against me was great.
This went on for over a period of about two years, and to this day, neither
of our spouses knows of this indiscretion.  I eventually thought it would be 
for the best if I found a new job. I had begun to get attached, and to 
depend on this guy, which neither one of us wanted from the beginning.
I found another job at another building. I must admit, it was 
hard for me to leave, cause I felt it would be an end to our 
"friendship". We continued to communicate by phone and E-mail, but the 
closeness we had shared had begun to fade. We got together one more 
time after I had left, and I think it was our way of saying good-bye to 
one another physically anyways. It was great while it lasted, and I must 
say, it has strengthened my marriage, and I think his as well. The excitement 
came back into my marriage, and we will celebrate our 11th anniversary this 
year. I have no intention of EVER telling my husband what I did 4 years ago.
I know it would kill him.... My husband and I have talked about having affairs 
and I know that he's had the chance and turned it down. I sometimes 
think of if I had only been stronger then this wouldn't have happened.
But, I must say, it has been a learning and growing experience for me. I 
still communicate regularly with my old lover, we have a very unique 
friendship now, that I know I could never have with another.  But, I 
have come to accept it as just friendship, it took me a while to get to 
this point. But, I feel good about myself and where I'm heading from 
here. This note has gotten a bit longer than I had anticipated, so, I'll 
close here. I'm sure this note will create some wild responses, but 
that's the risk I'm willing to take.  

been there.....

         Ah, Gentle Heart!
         
         What an affirmation! And what a delight to find that
         someone else has a relationship with their spouse
         "like unto mine own"...
         
         Well, now that I've effused over a kindred spirit...
         I have read *this* topic from front to back and I
         would like to share some thoughts...
         
         -- So many nasty words...ugly, cheat, betray, walk,
         slipped....Why so many *judgements*?  Was it Shakespear?
         "Methinks he protests too much..."  We tend (read
         that at least "I" tend) to resent and dislike and
         fear in others that which I most see and fear in
         myself. 
         
         __ I, at least, do not want the insult of being "owned"
         not the responsibility of "owning" another person.
          Because I do not want these things...I will not
         try to garner the rewards of such action.  I would
         no more try to dictate to my husband
         who/what/where/how/when/to what extent than I would
         try to spit in the wind.  It's messy!
         
         __ I would want no one to tell me if I could have
         an abortion...So I will tell no one with whom they
         may or may not sleep (or rather play...I guess there's
         not too much sleeping going on here). Yes, the subject
         *has* come up, No, I really couldn't care less (provided
         we are not transmitting ugly--now there's a *good*
         place for the word--diseases).  I find jealousy in
         general a waste of time.
         
         -- I am *absolutely* sure that my style of personal
         relationships will be *totally* unacceptanble and
         unsuitable for many, many other wonderful and worthwhile
         people.
         
         -- I am sometimes surprised in these days of turmoil,
         and always in awe that I have found several people
         in my life that I love and have loved me back. We
         occaisionally find the opportunity to express that
         sense of caring for one another. (I just remembered
         another nasty word..."sneak"...)  I still love them 
         and they still love me.  That in *no way* dengrates
         nor diminishes the *choice of committment* that my
         husband and I have made to each other to strive together
         to make a long-term and lasting relationship for
         ourselves and our child.  We have been married for
         17 years and have lived togther for 20...I'm with
         .76, I can only see death as an exit point.
         
         -- Finally, a thought on fidelity.  We all try to
         be faithful to what we believe in...and to our
         committments.  My committment included no reference
         on either party's part to sexual fidelity, it was
         inappropriate *for us*  But, it certainly can be,
         and *is* terribly important to some people. (No
         judgement, statement only...)  Maybe the .0 question
         should have been..."If your agreed upon relationship
         included sexual fidelity...."
                                                    
         Thank you letting me rant on...a wonderful group
         you are.
         
         Mel