Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I'm so glad to see this note!  I have fought the "thin-thin" issue
    for years.  Do you know that many "larger size" fashions start at
    size 12??  I always thought that was NORMAL!!  The older I get,
    the more I want to be healthy, and that doesn't always mean thin.
    I was raised in a family where you got laughed at if you gained
    weight--really helps you to keep a healthy attitude, doesn't it?
    
    I realize that fashion, advertising,  etc. all go to work on our
    minds.  Hopefully, as we become more in tune with our bodies and
    minds, we will concentrate on what is right and healthy for each
    of us.  
    
    Let's not put MORE pressure on ourselves!
    
    Jane

Aren't some men overweight for the same reasons, just as only some women
are overweight for the reasons listed in this book?  Why did the book
have to be geared towards women only?  Although I do agree that there tends to
be more social pressure for women to be slim, but the pressure is there
for men too.

Personally, the only reason I'm overweight is because I discovered how
wonderful food tasted at about the same time as I started working full time
(less active now).

...Karne

    I've always felt (and this from a slim person :^) ) that there is
    a feminist issue regarding fat.  Women's bodies are *supposed* to
    add extra weight, especially in the lower quadrants, as they mature.
    We are *supposed* to have wide hips.  This is a physiological fact
    of nature.  So a lot of women walk around thinking they are overweight
    when they are not (I'm not talking about real obesity here, but
    just those few extra pounds or one higher dress size).
    
    It bothers me when I get bothered because I don't have the slim
    hips I did when I was eighteen.  
    
    G  

    I'm not fat, I'm not unusually tall, but I'm a size 12.  That
    this should be where the "big" sizes start is outrageous.
    
    Karen, there are other books on fat, books that don't take a
    feminist viewpoint.  Given that, why shouldn't there be *one*
    with this viewpoint?  (I know you were asking in an attempt to
    be fair; this is just a way to change the perspective to see if
    the meaning of "fair" changes with it.)
    
    							Ann B.

    I would have to agree that being FAT is not gender-specific and
    many of the theories in the book apply to both men and women.
    Parts of the text look at the specific problems that are unique
    to women.  As an example, there is a discussion of how the 
    onset of menstruation can cause body-image problems and how distorted
    images of a woman's body can affect her sexual feelings.
    
    I agree that men have problems with weight, but most men have
    larger or bigger frames than women so if a 6' tall man is 10 pounds
    overweight, he isn't quite as noticable as the 5' tall woman that
    is 10 pounds overweight.
                            
    And I firmly believe that society thinks its ok for a man to sport
    a few extra pounds while the pressure is still put on women to be
    unrealistically thin.
                                                               
    nmw

    amazing and extremely insightful book - although I have heard some
    complain it's encouraging women to be fat and stay fat.  Some women
    are going to stay fat anyway, because they can't unravel the internal
    reasons why they got that way - hence any diet won't work.
    
    other good books:
    Big Beautiful Women - how to be the best you can be at any weight
    by ?
    
    Feeding the Hungry Heart - by Geneen Roth - excerpts from seminars
    on breaking free from compulsive eating (mostly breaking free from
    the emotional reasons which put you there)
    
    Breaking Free From Compulsive Eating - by Geneen Roth - examinse
    the seminar mentioned above in depth.
    
    
    also I have read many books on women in our society - with emphasis
    on how women are perceived by both women and men, and what their
    value is in many arenas of everyday life.  Particularly of interest
    is how women have deformed themselves/mutilated themselves for beauty
    over the centuries: foot binding in japan (china?), whalebone corsets
    of up to 80 psi and removal of ribs to have that hourglass figure,
    and now some very dangerous diets and diseases (anorexia, bulimarexia)
    and surgical procedures (intestinal balloons, stomach stapling,
    suction lipectomy, hormone shots, amphetamines addiction, etc).
    
    No, I am not as pretty outside as Christie Brinkley.  Maybe I'm not even
    as pretty as David Brinkley.  But I am a valid human being, and
    having been 200 lbs at one point I am irate at the way society treats
    those who are overweight.
    
    -Jody

>    Particularly of interest
>    is how women have deformed themselves/mutilated themselves for beauty
>    over the centuries: foot binding in japan (china?), whalebone corsets
>    of up to 80 psi and removal of ribs to have that hourglass figure,
>    and now some very dangerous diets and diseases (anorexia, bulimarexia)
>    and surgical procedures (intestinal balloons, stomach stapling,
>    suction lipectomy, hormone shots, amphetamines addiction, etc).

I think it is very important to correct the notion tht women have
mutilated THEMSELVES.  Women are mutilated in patriarchal societies in
order to devalue them and make them constantly aware that they are
nothing but bodies for the use of men.  All of these practices are
designed to bring women up to some standard of "beauty".  These
standards are NOT defined by women.  They convey to women a sense that
their bodies are intrinsically defective because none ever meet the
appropriate standard, and a woman needs to be grateful for having her
"faults" corrected so that a man will find her desirable property.  All
these types of mutilations also have the side effect of destroying
women's health and mobility, putting a woman in need of a "protective"
man. Clitoridectomy, the most horrifying mutilation, is still common in
Africa and parts of the Middle East, and is intended to totally destroy
a woman's sexuality, so that the woman is clearly nothing but a baby
incubator.  These women are taught to view their own sexual organs as
"unclean" and in need of removal.  

Other women are generally used as "token torturers": e.g., it is usually
an older woman who is put in charge of actually performing the
mutilation on younger women.  This does not represent women actually
doing these things to themselves; the torturers have been tokenized into
the system and are used to hide the real source of the maiming.  It teaches
women to distrust and fear one another as well, which is all to the 
benefit of the patriarchy.  Think of the job that must have been done on 
the average Chinese mother's head to think that she could allow her own 
girl babies to be drowned or exposed at birth, as so very many of them 
were up until the present century.

This topic makes me very emotional, and I don't mean to digress too much 
from the original topic.  The issues are related, if women would only 
think about what they put themselves through and what kind of self-
hatred is involved in attempting to meet this century's latest impossible 
standard.

    re:-.1
    
    and isn't it interesting how little time/energy these women had
    left after exerting themselves so long and laboriously to "look
    appropriate" - no wonder they had no time to pay attention to what
    was really being done to their gender, and what they could have
    undertaken to change things....
    
    -Jody

    To return to the subject....I've been fat my whole life. I've lost
    and re-gained more than most people will ever weigh. I've heard
    celebrities (can't remember her name - the neighbor on "Rhoda")
    say that overweight epople should be locked up til they lose weight.
    I've heard others say that fat people can't possibly be happy "in
    that condition" (something lower than pond-slime, presumably).
    
    I can truthfully say that I have never felt uncomfortable about
    my weight *DUE TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN SOCIETY'S TREATMENT OF FAT
    PEOPLE*.  One gets called names. One can't get attractive clothes
    off-the-rack (this is changing). One is told they are not healthy.
    One's co-workers feel free to make fat jokes. AND expect one to
    laugh. 
    
    Ihave finally come to 2 conclusions. 1)Women are not supposed to
    take up room, physically  or psychically. Fat women take up more
    than their share of room (not food, by the way - we generally eat
    LESS than anyone else)
    
    2) Diets don't work. The necessary change is mental/emotional. I
    believe that one creates protection around ones-self, and will maintain
    it as long as needed.
    
    Oh yeah....fat MEN don't have the same problems. "The Refrigerator"
    Perry is (yes, folks, it's true) *FAT*. Nad what he gets is admiration
    for being a "great athlete". Trust me. The reactions to a man his
    size jogging are VASTLY different than to a woman of comperable
    size jogging. So, you shouldn't be fat, girls, (:-{) but bygod don't
    blot the landscape by trying to get fit.
    
    <thud> well, maybe <THUD!!> (sound of large lady jumping off soapbox)
    
    Dawn
    

    Well Dawn, I agree with a lot of what you have to say, like fat
    is fat, bones is bones, you don't have to be unhealthy emotionally
    to be fat or skinny, but it seems to me a lot of heavy women make
    themselves that way out of insecurity or unhappiness.
    
    Last time I got dumped I couldn't eat.  Go into a grocery store
    and my stomach would turn.  Starved myself of food, got so bad I
    passed out in the shower before realizing I hadn't eaten anything
    in 48 hours.  When I am upset and feeling like pond scum, I reject
    food and its pleasures -- don't deserve pleasure... right?
    
    A few years ago I had a roomate who got dumped and got fat (morbidly
    obese).  I'd come home to her crying about a new set of stretch
    marks on her arms.  She was mutilating herself -- she got no pleasure
    out of the food, and every bite that went into her mind was a reminder
    of the fact that the creep [my name for him, not hers] dumped her
    because she "was a weakling", so weak, in fact, that she couldn't
    get up the self-discipline to diet.  While that way of thinking
    about oneself is poo-poo, her obesity was unhealthy because it was
    an expression of how much she hated herself because of a man. 
    
    My mom's lover complains when she goes under 175 lbs.  These days, she
    rejoices in her sexuality and her size (200lbs).  When she was with my
    dad, she was ashamed of that size, even though she was quite slender.
    Is she any better off now?  She certainly _is_ happier, but in my eyes
    she's just letting another man call the shots on what her body "should"
    look like. 
    
    Your body's your body, and if you can look in the mirror w/o seeing
    the evidence of a man shaping your body and your health, you're all
    set.  But when I was really skinny, all I could see was _his_ skull
    peering back at me, and when my roomate was unhappy, all she could
    see was the evidence of why she didn't deserve any man.  A woman's
    weight often _is_ an expression of how she devalues herself.
    
    Lee

    Bull, a woman's weight is caused by genetic factors and set points
    and is an expression of how SOCIETY devalues her.... Dr. James Hudson
    at McClean Hospital is doing extensive work with bulimia and anorexia
    and he says that a woman's weight naturally alters throughout her
    life but society refuses to accept each person at whatever their
    normal weight is so.... all kinds of emotional problems develop
    into neurotic behaviors which are quite common in this country.
    The behavior you describe is a neurotic emotional reaction to society's
    unreal standards.  Dr. Hudson works with a drug called Fluoxitine
    that makes you lose weight without even trying but ONLY TO YOUR
    BODIES NORMAL SETPOINT.  I too have been a "yo-yo" all my life with
    widely fluctuating weight swings and I too was shocked at how
    differently I was treated when I was up as opposed to when I was
    down, I was (after all) the same person.  So now (at the independent
    old age of 42) decided that I will weight whatever I happen to weight
    and punch out anyone who insults me_:-)
    			(more power behind the punch anyway_;-)

    FAT IS A FEMINIST ISSUE, je veux bien. Mais la maigreur ?
    
    A quoi est du le fait de ne jamais pouvoir prendre un kilo, malgre
    les patisseries, les glaces, les bonbons, les repas en sauces a
    la creme et les chocolats engloutis ?
    
    Je mange, je mange, j'ai toujours faim, mais je ne grossis pas.
    
    S'agit-il d'un appetit de la bouche (psychologique) ou d'un appetit
    de l'estomac (physiologique) ?
    
    Lorsque j'etais enfant, j'etais assez maladive, assez fragile. Mais
    a present, je suis plutot solide, je n'arrive meme plus a attraper
    la grippe pour ne pas aller a l'ecole :-).
    
    Vous me direz : C'est bien pratique, ne te plains pas !
    
    D'accord, mais pourquoi les autres grossissent-ils/elles au moindre
    chocolat et moi pas ?
    
    Je ne fais absolument pas de sport... je ne merite pas d'etre si
    mince :-)
    
    
    

    Zoziau

                       -< My Kingdom for one kilo !!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    FAT IS A FEMINIST ISSUE, I'll grant you.  But thinness ?
    
    To what can I attribute the fact that I can never gain a kilo, despite
    pastries, ice cream, candies, meals with cream sauces and covered
    chocolates?    
    
    I eat, I eat, I'm always hungry but I don't gain weight.    
    
    Is it about an appetite of the mouth (psychological) or of the stomach
    (physiological)?
    When I was a child, I was fairly sickly, fragile.  But now, I am
    more solid, I can't even catch a little cold so I won't have to
    go to school :-).
    
    You'll tell me: that's pretty practical [convenient], don't complain!
    
    Yes, but why do the others gain weight at the smallest bit of chocolate
    and not me?
    I don't do sports... I don't deserve to be so skinny :-)
    
        Zoziau

    Everybody's body is different Z.  From what I see of your notes,
    I'd lay odds that you burn 600 calories just sitting down: tightly
    strung [er, pas nerveuse, mais quand meme...] people tend to burn
    calories faster.  If you smoke, your body is bad at metabolizing
    food, so more passes through your system without getting used.
    
    Think of yourself as an energy waster :)
    
    Lee

    Fat *is* a feminist issue. I decided this after performing the
    following gedanken experiment. I tried to imaging successful men, then
    successful fat men. No problem. Then successful women, and successful
    fat women. Drew a blank. Women must be thin to succeed in our society,
    men do not. (This is an overgeneralization I know, but let it ride.)
    How often are "slightly overweight" or "plump" men criticised for their
    appearance? How about women?
    
    As I've stated elsewhere in this conference, I find "plump" women MUCH
    MORE attractive than "skinny" women. American society's current ideal
    of feminine beauty is the barely pubescent girl. (I use the word
    deliberately.) Thin, no hips, small breasts, large eyes. Besides
    being sexist, it's ageist as well. Can you imagine a lover 10 years
    older than yourself? How about 10 years younger?
    
    Strong women are exciting, plump women are sensual, older women are
    experienced, I want a partner, not a daughter! I want to learn as
    well as teach!
    
    Why do I feel like I'm in the minority?
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. Before anyone flames me for assuming that all thin, small hipped,
    small breasted women are unexciting, not sensual, and inexperienced...
    please, I DO know that. I am trying to make a point. Please don't
    take my remarks personally, I'm not trying to hurt or offend, just
    to get people to think about some of our societies attitudes.

        Gee, my new manager -- a senior manager -- is a woman who is as
        they say "not thin", and yet strikes me on first impressions to
        be capable, strong and and atractive. I suspect she reads this
        file, so I shall neither identify her nor say more than that to
        categorize her. It doesn't seem to me that it is any more
        important for a woman to be thin than a man in order to match my
        conception of a manager. 
        
        It doesn't seem to me that actual weight is the issue so much as
        health and state of mind. A friend of mine who was an engineer
        at DEC for many years has generally weighed--like Nero Wolfe--
        about a seventh of a ton. He is definitely on the heavy side,
        yet because of the power of his personality he doesn't strike me
        as "fat" in a derogatory sense. (These days he's a good deal
        lighter, too). He has style, poise and energy. I would rate him
        as both good looking and healthy looking, even when he was
        at the seventh of a ton figure.
        
        My manager, who is a good deal smaller than my friend, but on
        the heavy side, has a similar degree of poise, energy and style.
        Neither of them is a fat person who has succeeded, but rather a
        capable and successful person--manager or engineer--who happens
        to be heavy rather than light. Their weight isn't really an
        important facet of either one, nor does it seem to be a very
        negative facet. 
        
        It's true that neither of these people would be cast for the
        role of engineer or manager in a Hollywood production, but does
        the media stereotype have to drive our own images? It seems to
        me that in real life I meet lots of people that don't fit the
        Hollywood- or Madison Ave-perfect images of their profession or
        of the perfect person who are none-the-less quite successful. It
        also seems to me that many, or even most people that I know
        recognize and accept successful people who don't fit the mold.
        
        I think if we can't imagine successful women, successful fat
        women, successful blacks or whatever it is because we have not
        been paying attention. Around DEC at least I have met young,
        old, short, tall, fat, skinny, able, handicapped, black, white,
        handsome, beautiful and homely managers, engineers and the like.
        We need to focus on them and not on the media images if we are
        to avoid being dragged around by our misconceptions.
        
        JimB.
        
        PS: It is my general rule to never say anything negative about
        anyone in a notefile. It is certainly unwise to do so about
        one's own boss. Given this, I wouldn't have mentioned my manager
        and her appearence if I thought there was anything at all
        negative about her size or appearence, which is the whole point
        of this note. 

    Sorry Jim, I guess I wasn't clear. Citing examples of successful fat
    people doesn't really decide anything. The premise (as I understand it)
    is that being overweight is more of a handicap to success for a woman
    than it is for a man. 
    
    I have even more respect for successful "heavy" women than other
    successful women, because I believe that they have had to work even
    harder to acheive their success. This usually shows in other facets
    of their personalities as well.
    
    You are describing things as you treat them, and as they should be. I,
    sympathize and agree with everything you say, however, I DON'T think
    that what we want is the way things are. I think you'd agree with me
    that large women are at a disadvantage in this society. I hope you'd
    agree with me that large men are looked down on less. Until large women
    are no longer stigmatized MORE than large men, there is a problem. A
    *feminist* problem. 
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. Problem for language theorists out there: What is a
    non-judgemental way to talk about large or heavy people? 
    
    Plump sounds too cutesy, as is chubby.
    Overweight is too clinical, and has connotations of unhealthy.
    Large doesn't really address weight.
    Heavy sounds like a euphemism.
    Fat is exactly the wrong word, it has a large freight of negativism.
    
    What's the opposite of "thin"? Thin doesn't have nearly the negative
    connotations that "fat" does. (Which just goes to show...)

        I agree that we agree with how the world ought to be. What I was
        trying to say was that if we can't imagine some group--women,
        blacks, overweight, or handicapped people as successful it is a
        failure of our imagination. If we let Hollywood or Madison Ave.
        set the limitations of how we think of people we are
        contributing to the problem.
        
        I was focusing on your gedanken experiment. My conclussion from
        your experiment was that we need to improve our imaginations,
        that we need to make sure that we don't constrain ourselves and
        others by accepting restricted definitions and images of
        successful people. I see this as a problem that we all share in
        and not a problem of others. 
        
        JimB.

    For .9--
    
    My Lord, Dawn--if that isn't a correct summation of how we view
    fat in America, I don't know what is.  Isn't it funny (not really)
    how you can feel great about yourself, but others feel free to comment
    on how you "should" look?
    
    I weigh more today that I ever have in my life;  also I am more
    fit and more active than I have ever been in my life.  I feel very
    healthy, but I am ashamed to say that often I let myself listen
    to others about what I "should" weigh.  That's sick, when you think
    of it.  
    
    Your note about jogging really touched a nerve--I used to jog 3
    miles every day, and felt great.  One day some teenager in a passing
    car yelled out, "You better run, you WHALE!"  No matter how in shape
    you are, how good you think you look, and no matter that it's just
    some ignorant kid, THAT HURTS.  
    
    If you are healthy and happy, what else matters?  This societal
    sickness is something I'd like to see the end of.  Can't we put
    our energies to better use than pushups and running other women
    down?
    
    JAne

    I was reading a few "working woman" magazines a few years ago (mom
    subscribed).  There were a few statistics that stuck in my head.
    
    colleges are 3 times more likely to take a thin person, when compared
    with a fat person (read: obese) of equal qualifications/experience.
    
    
    and the women who are most likely to make it to higher management
    positions (about 80% of them follow 4 of the following) are those who:
    
    *have slender, boyish figures*
    are 5'8" or taller
    dress "sensibly" (power suits etc.)
    have masculine sounding names, like Morgan, and Leigh
    have short or tightly-put-up hair
    
    I wish I could find the issues, but it's interesting to think that
    in order for women to succeed as men do, they must all match the
    same stereotype, regardless of gender
    
    -Jody
    

    re .20  That description fits most everybody who makes
    it into higher management. The serious businessperson
    *looks* serious. If you look sexy, your motives are
    suspect. One writer characterized the attitude as follows :
    A salesman shows up in his office in designer clothes,
    rather than a plain business suit. He thinks, "Is this
    guy here to do business with me, or to make it with my
    secretary ?"  leaving off for the moment that this
    assumes the secretary is female, you can see that any
    clothes/appearance not "businesslike" detracts from
    your effectiveness among the upper management of any
    conservatively run establishment.
    
    (Roughly quoted from Bill Thourlby)

    I guess "FAT" has connotations of "unhealthy" for me.  So, I don't
    like it if someone refers to me as "fat", because I've never been
    healthier (well, except for the hay fever...but I seldom gets colds
    or the flu or other ailments) in my life.  "Built like a brick
    outhouse" might be a better description: I'm just under six feet
    tall, and weigh around 200 lbs. (usually people think I weigh less
    than that, but they are forgetting how tall I am).  I'd rather be
    thought of as "solid" or "sturdy" or "strong" (since I was never
    cut out to be "thin", "skinny", or "svelte").
    
    It's a different thing if a person is not healthy, whatever their
    weight may be.  I think we are conditioned to pay too much attention
    to our weights (people have been telling me lately "gee, you look
    like you lost weight" as if I was supposed to be pleased with this
    observation, and then act surprised when I tell them that I seldom
    weigh myself and really don't care what I weigh so long as I am
    healthy and have loads of energy).  I think we ought to pay attention
    to our health, not to our dimensions.
    
    I don't think that looking unhealthy is really much less of a stigma
    for a man, either, though most men are physically larger than most
    women and so don't look as "fat" as we would because they have larger
    frames.  I have a male friend who must weigh 300 lbs, maybe 30 or
    so of which is "excess baggage", but he is extremely healthy and
    surely isn't particularly "fat", although he is "big" -- which he
    would still be even if he dropped 30 lbs (he has huge hands and
    feet, massive shoulders, a big barrel chest - built like a bear).
    Then again, I have a cousin who is anorexic/bulemic, which is a
    lot less healthy than carrying the extra 30 lbs. distributed over
    Tom's large frame.
    
    Then again, maybe I;'m rationalizing, but I'd rather be healthy
    than "thin"!
    
    /Charlotte

    RE: - Jane: Whales, and jogging
    
    Having taught phys. ed. and having always been into athletics, I've
    always been able to exercise without giving too much credence to
    the - ahem - &%*%'s who make obnoxious comments. BUT: it is MUCH
    more difficult for women to overlook the comments (atfer all, our
    second function in society is to be decorative) and keep on joggin'.
    I'm a firm believer in exercise (for everybody), and I think that
    the crappola about fat people being less healthy would be really
    tested IF fat women were doing as much helpful exercise as a) their
    thin counterparts, and B) the fat guys.
    
    However, the fat teenage male jogging is more likelky to be taken
    for the football team's Left Tackle (don't mess with HIM), and the
    fat teenage female jogging is more likely to be taken as FAIR GAME
    for obnoxious commentary. Result: she stays INSIDE, away from exercise,
    and becomes less healthy. (Sounds like natural selection. Well,
    UN-natural selection..)
    
    When I taught school, kids did the "yearbook-signing-bit" in June.
    One 7th grade boy wrote he liked me "even though I could bench-press
    more than he could". Think about it. This kid was 11 years old -
    skinny, short. OF COURSE I could bench press more than he could.
    I could bench-press more than he could if I weighed 125 lbs.!!!!
    But, coming from him (young male) to me (mature, fat, female) the
    comment was a knock. Imagine him saying that to the MALE gym teacher.
    It wouldn't compute. As a female, 25 years older than he, I still
    SHOULD NOT have been stronger.  Or maybe more to the point: I shouldn't
    have had the temerity to LOOK stronger. 
    
    Yup, we're talking sexism here, folks.
    
    RE: Setpoints. Every time I've lost weight, I've returned to the
    SAME weight. TO THE POUND. Exactly. I believe in setpoints.
    
    Dawn
    

    Seen on a tee-shirt worn by a very large woman:
    
    Godesses are not anorexic.
    

    I love it.  Any idea where to get one?
    
    --bonnie, who comes from sturdy peasant stock

    
    Seen on a T-shirt at the health club to which I belong;
    
    (Paraphrased)
    
    
                           I MAY BE FAT
                          BUT YOU'RE UGLY
                         I CAN LOSE WEIGHT
                          WHAT CAN YOU DO

    Thanks-
    
    Lee

    	I want some of these T-shirts.
    
    	I'm 6'6" and weigh about 245+.
    
    	As Garfield (the cat) said:
    
    	I'm not overweight, I'm just undertall!"
    
    	Scott (The Undertall)

.26 is a variant of a comment attributed to Winston Churchill:

Bessie Braddock, M.P.:  "Winston, you're drunk!"
Churchill:  "Bessie, you're ugly. And tommorow morning I shall be sober."

From Nancy McFee, "The Book of Insults."

Martin.

    Oh, these last few comments have made my whole week!!
    
    We need to rethink, ladies and gentlemen--seems like most of us
    like ourselves and each other just fine as is.  How many times have
    you been introduced to a thin person, and think to yourself, 'I
    hate him/her!'.  Sick-o...
    
    It's interesting to me that the majority of men I have known have
    all agreed on one thing--they hate "skinny"!  And come to think
    of it, the men I have always been attracted to are heavier than
    your standard male model :-)...
    
    Who thinks up all these impossible standards we make ourselves
    miserable with??  I just heard on the news this morning that Mass.
    has the biggest "diet drug" problem in the country;  as in,
    QUIIIIIIIIICK--make me THIN!
    
    Kinda makes me want a box of Oreos..
    
    Jane
    

    RE .30  Hi Jane - you bring the cookies, I'll bring the milk.
    
    Losing the battle of the bulge. Does everyone have a metabolic
    shift in their twenties ? Up 'til I was 25 I couldn't gain
    weight. 145 no matter what I ate. Then, boom. Now 210 and
    holding on for dear life.  
    
    Dana

RE: .*

True, a woman should be able to be any weight that she wishes to be, and
be happy about it.

Yet, should I not be able to have a slim woman as a companion in life if
I wish, without being harrassed?

Ric's mother is obese.  I detest that.  Yet, I can see that it was because she
was unhappy.  Yet she could never admit that she was unhappy, because it would
mean losing me; all that she could do was be unhappy, and so, make me unhappy. I
tried to make her happy, but I could not.  I tried to help her lose weight, as I
really believe she wanted to, but I could not.  Yet, she slowly gained weight,
and did not lose any weight after being pregnant.  My mother is also obese. 

If you are happy being plump, fine.  If you are happy being slim, fine. But if
you're not happy, *change* *yourself*. 

Maybe what I hate about obesity is not the physical attribute, but the
psychological attributes...  I don't know, I've never had the chance to uncouple
them.

FWIW, I do like tall/strong/large women as well, and I relate well to obese
people as well, and I myself am tall with a few extra pounds.  I just would not
want them next to my skin... 

What's a male to do?  Men's preceptions of women are shaped by women.  We're
all in this mess together; have to stop chewing on each other...

Jim.

    
    
    Who tells us to be thin????????????????????????????????
    
    
    
    Pick up any magazine and tell me what the models look like! Thin
    gorgeous people who have the really great looking guys. It is drilled
    into our head since birth that fat is ugly/disgusting etc....it
    is in to be thin according to every major fashion world. If you
    are over a size nine good luck trying to find clothes! Even at the
    other end it is a little tricky to find fives.
    
    If you look around at advertising which is best known for it's little
    subliminal messages you will see them blaring 
    
                          THIN IS IN!!
                          
    
    They are practically telling all people who are an ounce overweight
    that they will be miserable, lonely, unloved, failures for the rest
    of their lives.
    
    There is an ad for Tab soda....a girl in a bikini walking up the
    beach. Sixty minutes did a poll of people watching this commercial
    a little of three quarters didn't even know the product!!!
    
    Look at Calvin Klein ads.....(when Brooke used to do them) she used
    to cram her bod into those because thin skin tight jeans are sexy.
                    
    What about the ones for Obsession perfume?? The girl is a god damn
    stick!!!! BUT she has a nice looking guy in her bed...
    
    The best one I can think of for guys is the one for the weightlifting
    equipment where they show the upper torso and the guy has started
    to take off his shirt and you can't see his face but only his chest
    and arms. What does that say?? If you don't work out and have an
    awesome bod (which he did :-) ) forget it you might as well just
    go crawl somewhere and die.
    
    Why do we do it?? Some do it for men/women, some because they are obsessed
    with the fear of being fat, some do it for health. But the big
    underlying reason that I see is that the thin people have always
    been portrayed as being popular, rich, lucky in love, fun, no problems,
    and all those wonderful things. 
    
    Fat people are made to feel uncomfortable because of their stature.
    Have you seen those stupid booths at fast food restaurants??? How
    can they fit? They don't or they suck in what they can. granted
    fat is not healthy because of the damage you can do to your heart
    but the social outcasting of these people are NOT going to help
    their problems. Some people can diet and loose weight others have
    to really honestly work at it until their dying day.
    
    Just because you go out with a thin person (363.32) is no reason
    to feel guilty. Some people let the rest of themselves go (cleanliness
    etc) when they get larger because they feel lazier. You can find
    the sweetest people who are overweight but very few people will
    ever know because they have that social stigma of being "fat". Such
    a shame....                                            
    
    I know I fought this battle I ate when I was lonely, bored.....it
    became a recreational habit. But I managed to control it before
    it controlled me. Now I am thin and more healthy. (not necessarily
    the stereotype)
    
    Why can't we just accept the fact that we are all going to be different
    one way or another.....
    
    Debbi

    RE .33 >THIN GORGEOUS PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE REALLY GREAT LOOKING GUYS.
    
    And if you weren't so worried about attracting them, your eyes might
    be open to the average guys. Then you could be out with them, instead
    of sitting at home eating ice cream and chips. 
    
    flame off
    
    If you ain't a 10, forget 10's. Be honest with yourself. Do you
    really have to be with some conceited person who is most interested
    in the mirror ?   *Most* thin people I know are too busy worrying
    about their figure to develop their minds. Shallow.

    i dont think fat is a gender issue at all.
    having being the victim of an eating disorder myself,and being treated
    for it recently,men fall prey to it also.
    
    				kelly

    re: .35
    
    Eating disorders is a different subject. Yes, men fall prey to them
    as well (tho' not as much to anorexia, I believe).
    
    Because one is fat deos not mean they have an eating disorder -
    there are studies which show that fat women, especially, do NOT
    eat more than their thin counterparts.
    
    Also, regarding being fat vs. heart problems, etc. The studies have
    been done with young (white, probably - don't know) MALES. There
    are MD's who believe that studies done with females will show very
    different results. Remember, women are made to STORE fat quickly
    and easily - it is natural for us, where it is not, for men.
    
    All other things being equal - women take more flak, and have more
    problems created for us, for being fat than do males in this society.
    
    DAwn
    

    re.36
    i was not referring to being heavy,i was referring to being thin.
    i saw some men who where just as obsesed with being thin as i was/am
    it was not a pretty picture.
    they had the same feelings that i did"if i was thinner,people would
    accept me".
    
    media has a lot to do with it
    
    i can believe that mass. has the biggest problem with diet pills
    
    					kelly

    RE: .37
    
    Wow! I had no idea men had such obesessions about thinness! I would've
    expected excessive weight-training and steroid use before I thought
    about eating disorders.
    
    Thanks for raising my consciousness.
    
    (Now what the (*^% do we DO about a society that tells us we need
    to adhere to some standard to get other people's acceptance, and
    never tells us the big secret that our own acceptance is what counts?)
    
    Humph.
    
    Dawn
    

    We tell the people we love and like that they and their bodies are
    as fantastic as they are, and they should be more concerned about
    their _selves_ than their bodies.  
    
    After all, we the enlightened <big smiley face> became friends with
    them because of who they are, and wouldn't want them to change that.
    
    If only...
    
    Lee

        Not only should we tell those we love that we love them just the
        way they are, but we need to tell ourselves the same things.
        I've gained about 50 lbs. since I started working (128lbs to
        about 175-180lbs), and while people all around me are weigh
        watching I am willing to say that the extra is mine. I worked
        hard for it, and I earned it. I wouldn't mind improving my
        muscle tone and dropping a few pounds, but I refuse to flagelate
        myself over it. 
        
        It's easier for me as a man, but women need to be able to be
        honest with themselves and supportive of themselves as well as
        of each other. We can all work at refusing to let Mad Ave and
        Hollywood dictate the images of beauty and acceptability.
        
        JimB. 

    Of course, then we have the "mixed message syndrome" -
    
    I have an aunt who used to:
    
    1. Say "Oh well, there's just more to love!"
    
    2. Offer me $5/lb to lose weight
    
    3. Tell her gentleman friend not to bring a camera on an outing
       because I was wearing shorts. 
    
    4. Buy me candy, ice cream, etc. and offer me MORE
    
    In various combinations, within minutes of each other!!!
    
    Go figure.
    
    Dawn
    

    This woman I saw on Sunday has got to be the most obese "person"
    I have ever seen.  It didn't matter that she was a woman.  What
    mattered was the ill health she was in: obese and smoking.  I often
    wonder if people "remain" obese and unhealthly because of some deep
    seeded feelings of hatred for themselves.  How can anyone who took
    the time to paint nails, toes, and put on eye make-up not look at
    the rest of the person?
    
    My boyfriend said, "as long as there is someone that is bigger than
    her, she probably doesn't think she looks "that" bad.
    
    I was eating and felt ill when she sat down in front of me.  I know,
    you're probably all thinking, "who the %^&$ do you think you are?"
    Well, it "is" my problem that this woman's obesity bothered me.
     But obviously, it doesn't bother her.
    
    So be it.

    re .37:
    
    >     media has a lot to do with it

    Is this really true? Listening to people with eating disorders talk
    about why they "do it", they inevitably bring up the images of people
    in advertising. "If I looked like them I would be loved/perfect..."
    Usually they then go on and blame advertising for presenting images
    of such skinny women. Seems to me though, that the media is not
    "the cause". The images in the media are just what these people
    latch on to as "the solution" to their problem. The CAUSE of the
    problem, I think, must be something much more personal than images,
    i.e. the family.
    
    The key to that phrase is not the image that they point to, but
    the need to point to it in the first place.
    
    I do not understand the 'logic' that goes from seeing an ad
    that uses attractive people, to the implication that if you don't
    look like those people, then you are nothing. In order to make such
    a leap, there has to be something _already_ wrong previous to seeing
    the ad.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re.43
    i agree with you 100%
    first you must start off with a strong dislike of self,the media
    just helps point out possible "cures" to it.
    if i was better looking etc...
    
    					kelly

    I have never flamed in this (or any) notes file. I shall now proceed
    to shout.
    
    RE:.42
    
    PLEASE STOP CONNECTING THE WORDS "FAT" AND "UNHEALTHY". (ok, "obese")
    THAT IS *NOT* REPEAT *NOT* A GIVEN.
    
    Ahem.
    
    Having said that, I believe it is unwise for ANYONE to smoke. I
    believe it is "unwis-er" for a fat person who does not get regular
    exercise to smoke. (But then, most people who exercised regularly,
    probably wouldn't WANT to smoke)
    
    I suspect that a negative attitude about fat people may affect one's
    feelings regarding the state of their health; however, I would be
    willing to bet that if studies were done on fat people who exercized
    regularly and ate a good diet, they (we) would be no less healthy
    than the population in general.
    
    Dawn
    

    I am by American standards over weight, I wear a size 22.  My sister
    wears a size 6, but I wouldn't trade places with he  for a million
    dollars.  She has High blood preassure, gall bladder problems, heart
    problems, is on three different restrictive diets, gets tired just
    walking around the outside of her house.  I just had my check up
    and the only concern my doctor had was my weight. I mow all my own
    grass, about 1/2 acre and it's not flat, I stack 8 cords of wood
    every year, we (my daughter and I) have a farm, 5 horses, 4 sheep,
    2 cows, several dogs, cats, rabbits etc. They have to be fed and
    watered twice a day. I work a part time job, and am a member of
    the ZBA in my town. I am an active member of Women in Business a
    professional womens club in my area and a candidate for vice president.
    For fun I garden , do gourmet cooking, and try to read a book a
    week.  
    
    I guess if I weren't over weight I could do something constructive
    with all my spare time and energy :-).

    that was great.....
    
    
    _peggy	(-)
    		 |	The Goddess is overflowing in your life...
    

    I second that "Yeah Pat", and I rest my case.
    
    Dawn
    

    There are an awful lot of current hypotheses about why people get
    fat/stay fat/get fat again after losing weight.  One of the current
    popular ones seems to be that self hatred is the real issue--and
    that's obviously true for some people.
    
    I think there's a simpler explanation that is often overlooked
    for many people whose weight problem (or eating problem) began in
    childhood.  I think it's true for a number of women, and perhaps some men.
    
    When people are children, comfort, safety, and security are very
    important factors.  Some children get these from their families,
    others from their peers or pets, and others from other sources.
    Some children turn to food to meet those needs, especially in a
    culture/family where food is plentiful.  Sometimes food is a seemingly
    *better* comfort than the nearby humans, especially if it's there
    when the child wants it (availability), can be consumed until the child
    is full (satiety), and will be there again when the child wants
    it (consistency).                
    
    The child has a certain kind of control over a comfort that she
    may not have over any other comforts in her life.  She may not have
    any control over her ability to limit access to it, but she has
    control over access to it!
    
    This kind of behavior becomes deeply ingrained.  It's hard for the
    teenager and adult to switch over to less destructive types of
    fulfillment.  So for adult women who can relate to this kind of
    eating, giving up food can often mean giving up the only fulfillment
    she has ever been able to have at will (at least in this culture).
    
    Even when other types of fulfillment are available, it's very, very
    hard to give up ingrained behavior that provided something very important.
                                                    
    Holly

    re .49
    
    that's why the one pound bag of M&M's was sooo important.  Everything
    else in my life may have been going down the tubes but those M&M's
    *always* tasted great.  Guaranteed satisfaction.
    

   
    
    I hate to inform you but I *don't sit home eat chips and ice cream
    on Friday and Saturday nights. I am very thin (96 lbs).
    
    I am also not worried about getting nice looking guys either. I
    have dated many people and enjoy staying single right now, BY CHOICE.
    
    What I was saying in a round about way is that the media (again)
    have a great deal of influence as to what the norm is as far as
    weights and things. I think people would feel alot more comfortable
    if they opened up a magazine every now and again and there was a
    larger sized woman as a model. The psychology of it all tells us
    that all these people in the ads have smiles, look happy (they *must
    be* happy) and all those wonderful things. 
    
    How many ads have you seen for overweight people?? Finally the public
    is beginning to realize that there is more than one norm for life,
    that we all are individuals. 
    
    Men go through the same sh*t......(well almost)
    
    
    Debbi

    I had to see the doctor today (ear infection; God, I hate antibiotics!)
    for only the second time in five years, assuming you don't count
    prenatal care.  I weighed in at 162 (20 pounds for each baby), so while
    I was there I asked the doctor if he thought I should lose weight. 
    
    He looked at my chart and at me, at my blood pressure reading of
    110/60, and told me no, he didn't see any health reason to lose
    weight, just make sure I keep exercising.
    
    So there.
    
    --bonnie

    Only a couple of times during my adult life (over the age of 14)
    have I been more than 5 lbs off of 145 lbs - and either way I feel
    bad, and try to get back to 145.  This trying happens in a physical
    way - if too fat, I feel heavy and like I'm eating too much, then
    cut back.  If too thin, feel like there is nothing to me, and want
    to eat.  I can't remember a more miserable time than when I was
    135 and couldn't afford more food.
    
    Elizabeth