Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Viv, I would argue that you should take any decision *without*regard*
    to his being your brother.  Anything else is self-sacrificial.
    
    						=maggie

    Why are you worried about your love for him when he obviously doesn't
    hold you or your views in much regard?
    
    Situations like this really make me mad so I will only tell you
    what I would do if the problem were with my brother.  I'd put his
    stuff in storage and change the locks while he was out of town.
    (This assumes he didn't sign the lease with you - which I hope because
    that is a whole other problem!)
    
    Good luck and let us know how you do.  You do have sympathetic ears
    here.
    
    Sally
    

    My sister acted similarly and my mother said, "you know where the
    door is, either shape up or get out".  She was 21 years old and
    that was her daughter.  Your BROTHER is 36 years old and he has
    to learn how to take care of himself sometime.  I think, now's
    the time.       
    
    Give him an ultimatum.  I think in the long run, he'll thank you
    for it.

    
    
    Ahem.
    
    Your brother is acting like a four-barreled, gold plated, uranium
    cored jerk.  Advise him that he should either be prepared to accept
    the expenses of his own maintenance or get the hell out.  He is
    an adult, as are you, and adults do not treat each other in this
    fashion.
    
    I know that his being family makes it harder on you, Viv, but if
    they guy can't face life's music when it's coming from his own family,
    he's not going to be able to cope too well when it comes from other
    sources.  Do him the favor of telling him to straighten out.
    
    DFW

    GET RID OF THE SLIME-BALL!  If you need help standing up to him,
    enlist a friend or two or three to come over and stand by you while
    you tell him to get out.  Set a deadline and stand by it.  Be firm.
    I know it's *sooo* hard to do this, so enlist help.  If you can't
    find anyone else, *I'll* help you throw the pig out myself!
    
    Do this now, for yourself.  And if not for yourself, then for your
    *daughter's* sake.  You haven't got a moment to lose.
    
    	-Ellen

	I agree with EVERYBODY.  Give him the boot!  Maybe it
	will teach him a lesson, and if so -- GREAT!  If not,
	you'll know that no amount of talking or understanding 
	would have changed things.  

	Kathy

    My husband has a brother who treats people this way.  I have stopped
    being anything more than civil to him when necessary.  He literally
    caused a two month delay in our moving into our new house!!
    
    Just because someone is family is no reason that you have to take
    abuse.  Letting someone get away with behavior that you wouldn't
    accept in a non-family member just gives them your okay to do it
    again.  

    Ditto to all of the above.
    
    Be sure to protect yourself (new locks, etc).  Just in case.
    
                    Carol

    Being an older brother, it is probably a bit harder for him to accept
    direction from "little sister" (especially if there is more than
    a few years difference in age).  I do agree with the others however
    that his behavior is quite unacceptable.  Do give him an ultimatum
    and stick by it.  But give him one more chance, make it clear that
    his next stay will be what determines if the locks are changed (and
    any stays thereafter if he actually passes muster this next time).
    If he acts up in his usual manner during his next stay remind him
    that he should be looking for a new place to stay.
    
    Now, to make sure that his next stay isn't a free ride :
    
     - don't go shopping when he is around, or at least don't let
       him come along.  
     - make him treat for every other meal (even if it means eating
       McDonalds or pizza).  I admit this one may be hard to enforce.
       If he argues that there are two of you and one of him, point
       out that he eats as much as the two of you put together.
     - charge a "rental fee" for the truck.  He has to fork over 
       $5 or $10 to get the keys.  The problem is getting them back.

    Food and transportation are the two big ticket items.  I would 
    probably let him slide on the laundry soap and phone bill (except
    for long distance calls).
    
    If you do have to change the locks and put his stuff in storage,
    do not let him into your house at all.  Leave him the keys to the
    storage place at his hotel, or wherever he ends up staying.  I 
    think I would keep my distance from him for a while (days/weeks)
    until he cools down.  Of course explain to your mother exactly
    why you're doing all this so you won't look like a bad guy to
    the rest of the family.
    
    			Barbara b.

    PUT HIM OUT. Have you ever heard of tough love?  You should not
    let any human being treat you and your daughter that way.  I put
    my son out 5 years ago. I was the hardest thing that I have ever
    done in my life. He is my first born child and I love him with all
    my heart, but he had difficulty lifing in a family environment.
    He became demanding, selfish, dictitorial, abusive, and uncoorperative.
    He went to live in a not so nice rooming house, called home every
    day asking to come home.  I held my ground. 
    
    Now five years later he thanks me at least once a week for being
    firm with him.  He has asked me on several occasions " what do you
    think would have happened to me if you haden't booted me out" He
    went and got his class 1 license, lives with his girlfriend and
    her son, and very proudly comments on his responsibility to his
    "family" .
    
    I shed lots of tears over the decision I made, but I am convinced
    I was the only thing I could do at the time.

    I agree with the people who say throw him out.  He's using you.
     Even if you lose a brother for life, he doesn't sound like he'd
    be much of a loss.  Would he ever be there for you if you needed
    help?
    
    Re .10, I really respect and admire the decision you made in regard
    to your son.  I know people who wouldn't force themselves to do
    that and they don't seem to realize they aren't doing society or
    their children any favors.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I wouldn't anger him in any way. Give him notice that you want
    him to move out, tell him why. Do not give in - he will tell you
    he'll change, he'll try harder...
    
    You said you can afford to live on your own, so why not? Trucker's
    make good pay - I'm sure he can afford a small place of his own
    as well.
    
    Doesn't surprise me he's single...
    
    -bfd
    
    

    Boy, does that note sound familiar!!!!  My brother is 27 and still
    lives with Mom/Dad.....he has enough money to live on his own but
    he won't.  He doesn't bother me cuz I don't live there but he drives
    my Mom up the wall!  He lived on his own once for less than a year
    but during that time went home for all his meals......(that's call
    living on your own???) he also brought his laundry too!  My mom
    was ready to boot him out before the holidays but mellowed again....I
    know it's hard for her to do......he is very opinonated as well
    and I'm not surprised he is not married.....sometimes I call him
    the couch potato.....I think he needs to be on his own to get some
    sort of identity....I agree with the person who made her son leave
    home...I believe they really need that - it helps them grow.
    
    Viv,
    
    I agree with the others.  After what you been through you don't
    need that abuse!  Tell him you love him and he is your brother but
    you realize that you just can't live with him - you are both TOO
    different people.  Hopefully he will understand that.
    
    Good luck......
    
    Bobbi
    

    This must be a very painful situation for you to deal with.  It
    sounds like you had very high hopes that this would be something
    good for both of you.
    
    Since it's not working out, I would agree that you need to change
    the situation.  You and your daughter deserve to create and come
    home to a warm, comfortable and safe place.
    
    I think it's important to give him sufficient advance warning if
    he is on the road.  He may act like a jerk, but I would want to
    explain to him why it's not working, and give him time to make other
    arrangements.  You are not responsible for his comfort or happiness.
    He is.  It sounds like he makes enough money to *buy* the services
    he thinks he needs.
    
    Good luck.

    I agree. It sounds like you need to kick him out (sorry to be
    skeptical, but I find it hard to believe that he'll straighten up
    with just one ultimatum). It sounds like YOU feel responsible for
    his well-being. That would be reasonable if HE took some responsiblity
    too. But's he's not doing that. Even a three year old is capable
    of adhering to rules designed to help people live together peacefully.
    I think the suggestions for support from friends and changing the
    locks are good ones.
    
    Liz
    

Boy, is this ever a toughie...

You grew up with him, you knew him when he was small, he's a part of
your concept of family....

but something is wrong with the feeling....

I think I would approach this a little differently than the rest of you.

The kid had Mom and Dad move away from him (at 36, he can still be
irresponsibile enough to be 'the kid') and his 'charmed life' with them
has changed, and now he's looking for an equally charmed life from
you, and neither one of you is getting it.  I'd guess that his anger is
as much directed at Mom and Dad for booting him as it is at you for
not meeting his expectations... and he's avoiding talking to you 
because he doesn't know what to do, and he's probably fairly angry
at himself as well.  I don't know of anyone at 36 who is still
emotionally or physically dependent on someone who DOESN'T resent the 
role at some level.

I'd also guess his avoidance might be viewed by him as a temporary
solution.  "I don't have to deal with her right now because I'll
be gone in a few days...".

Forget Mom's advice.  Don't grin and bear it.  If Mom had been all that
tight on advice, the kid wouldn't have ended up like this!

I'd talk to him first.  If he avoids me, then I'd serve up a tasty
ultimatum:  talk to me now or the next time you go your stuff will be 
on the street.  It's a handy threat that should get his attention.

Then talk.  Don't preach, don't 'Mom' him.... just give him facts.
You need the 1/3 of the rent, but you will also now require 1/3 of the
food and any other expenses he incurs.  I would think twice before I
slap him with 1/3 of the utilities, simply because it is unfair if
he's away all that much.  A smaller cut might be in order tho'.

And very calmly, factually tell him his behavior is out of line.
If he wants to stay (and try not to sound like you're doing him a
favor by LETTING him live there... then it doesn't sound like it;s
'home' to him), he has to lay off the daughter.  If he's got a complaint
about her, report it to you.  

No foul language and no treating you like slaves.

Let him make up his own mind.  If he won't respond or chooses not to,
then give him a move-out date.  You might offer to help him locate
an apartment....  This will help you deal with it and will soften
the blow for him.  I'm sure he feels rejected enough right now.

The best thing you can do it to be a FIRM, loving sister.  You love
him and nothing is going to change that, but being roommates is usually
not a brother-and-sister option, kiddo.... Too much excess baggage there
to develop a good nurturing roommate relationship....  I'm surprised you
tried it. 

I am advocating giving him one more chance to HEAR you, not one more
chance to screw up.  Don't let him turn the 'loving sister' role into
that of a substitute Mom.

But... maybe you, too, could realize that if you do want your brother
to join your extended family, maybe there are steps that could be done
so that he could feel he fits in more......  Instead of saying to him
"You've increased my food bill, so I need you to pay more money to me"
(sounds like a boarder, not a brother), how about "Gee, you're not
home very much.... If you'd be willing to add $50 a month to your
rent, then I could keep stuff you liked around more.... otherwise I
simply can't buy it as much.."  You know, turn his 1/3 rent charge into
more of a general 'board' charge.

I'm taking guesses, but maybe part of his anger is that he doesn't feel
welcome....

Now, please don't jump on me... I'm not trying to make YOU the bad guy
in this.  It sounds like the kid is taking advantage of you and making
your lives miserable...

He might be striking out at you in anger because he perceives you doing
something different.

I just wouldn't boot him just yet....  

But, the ultimate goal is a happy, warm and fuzzy home for you and your
daughter.  If the kid can be a part of it, great.  If he can't, 
save your own home... and if yo have the energy, try to help him build
his OWN!

bugs

    Well, we finally talked.  He apologized.  I told him this would
    be his one and only apology.  After this, it would be "so long,
    glad to have known ya".
    What I did was list all household expenses, sat down with him, and
    we talked about what would happen if he had to rent some place by
    himself, what he would have to buy, what would be paid wheather
    he was there or not etc....  It came as quite a shock to him and
    he admitted that maybe he was getting a free ride afterall.  He
    decided that maybe he *better* learn to communicate and consider
    my and PJ's feelings.  The hardest thing for him seems to be that
    I don't NEED him to take care of us, he wanted the big brother male
    role, making decisions, making rules etc.  He said he guessed he
    always thought that women can't function correctly without a man
    to tell them whats what.  It was my turn to be shocked.  I was cool
    and didn't have a stroke, but calmly explained that women for years
    have been functioning quite well without having someone always telling
    them what was what, thank you for sharing that with me.  
    So now I figure, next time he is off the road, will be the actual
    test as to whether or not we remain roomates.  As alot of you have
    stated some very good suggestions, I am going to follow quite a
    bit of it after this one conversation.  I told him this was it,
    no more chances, it would be a mutual respect or bye.  So, next
    month will be the test.  I let ya'll know what happens.  
    As my mom used to always say, "patience is a virtue".  I almost
    lost it there, but thanks to this kind of forum, lots of different
    views help to make a final decision. 
    Thanks to everyone.
    
    vivian

    Good work!  That took a lot of courage too!

    I'm impressed with the way you handled this!  I hope it works out
    for all of you.  Sounds like he needed to be sobered up as to the
    realities of maintaining a household. 
    
    I would consider having a written agreement, just in case he forgets!