Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    The only problem with feminist SF is that it gets me all "het up."
    
    Start thinking nasty things about men, their competence, worth in
    this world, etc, etc.  Reminds me how superior women are... in 
    general      :)
    
    So if I start making nasty comments about "that other gender", you
    know I've been reading too much again, and gently steer me in the
    direction of one of the good men of the world so I can remind myself
    what is real and what is fiction.
    
    Haven't read LeGuin since I was a tot (10-12 or so), so while the
    stories remain quite familiar, their impact and social commentary
    are not -- as I missed them the first time around.
    
    Lee

    In the interest of economy, I've modified the basenote title & moved
    this (originally a basenote) here as a response.
    
    						=maggie 
    =======================================================================
    
    3D::CHABOT "May these events not involve Thy servan" 26 lines  14-JUL-1987 11:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Okay, as Charles suggested, here's a topic for feminist science
    fiction authors.  I've included fantasy, for the usual reasons,
    and also because I read more of that these days.
    
    And I'll start with a favorite of mine.  A new one:
    
	    Emma Bull's _War_for_the_Oaks_.
        
    This is a fantasy set in contemporary Minneapolis.  A guitarist
    starting out her own new rock and roll band is called upon to assist
    in the summer's battle between the Seelie and the Unseelie (roughly,
    the light Sidhe and the dark Sidhe).  A July paperback from Ace.
    Also, a first novel (published, anyway, I don't know of any others).
    
    Why is this feminist?  Well, it's not preachy.  But Eddie is her
    own person and she's strong and she's good at what she does.  She
    starts the band with and at the prompting of a woman who was in
    the previous band with her.  Other strong female characters: well,
    the queens of both courts, although they're background characters
    they are the ones in charge of their realms.  And the men are fine
    too--they're neither the heavies (any more than others) and they're
    competent too.  People's gender doesn't influence their musical
    ability or courage.
    
    ---------------
    More later...my library's at home...

    Love LeGuin, also Kate Wilhelm (check this month's OMNI for her
    latest short story), MZBradley, Diane Duane, Jean Lichtenburg,
    Jaqueline Lorrah. 
    
    But...
    
    The best, least sexist, most feminist sf I have ever read was written
    by a man!  
    
    Samuel Delany!  
    
    When I read the Neveryona series (which I highly recommend), I had
    to keep turning to the front cover and checking out the name to
    make sure it really _wasn't_ a woman who wrote the books!  Great
    stuff!  Especially Venn's Tale...
    
    Samuel Delany was married to feminist poet Marilyn Hacker for eight
    years, and has been openly gay for ages...this probably has something
    to do with his startlingly feminist perspective.
    
    Any of you who wish recomendations for feminist sf/woman-authored
    sf, or even a loan of the same, feel free to mail me.  I live with
    over 5000 sf books.  
    
    Rita
    

    
>    Samuel Delany was married to feminist poet Marilyn Hacker for eight
>    years, and has been openly gay for ages...this probably has something
>    to do with his startlingly feminist perspective.
    

	Excuse me - are you saying that a man can only understand 
	feminist issues if he is openly gay, or has been married to a
	femenist poet ????????

	Paul - just curious, because if that's the case - I haven't a 
	chance of understanding femenism.

    Two ***** by Kate Wilhelm
    
    Juniper Time
    Welcome, Chaos
    
    Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang  didn't do me. It won the Hugo,
    so I'm obviously in a minority there.

      >	Excuse me - are you saying that a man can only understand 
      >	feminist issues if he is openly gay, or has been married to a
      >	femenist poet ????????
    
    Nope, don't worry, Paul, you still got a chance ;-)
    
    I certainly don't think that one has to be gay or married to a feminist
    poet to be a man who can understand feminist issues.  It is just
    _my_ guess and _my_ opinion on why _this_particular_man_ has such
    a good feminist perspective.  Analysis of individual case, not of
    the generic.
    
    Rita
    

    
    If you want to read another good feminist SF novel by Samuel Delany,
    (although I learned to love it for other reasons), I'd suggest
    Babel-17.  It's principal protagonist, Rydra Wong, is one competent
    lady.
    
    I didn't know Delany was gay.  He certainly has some interesting
    perspectives on relationships, as evidenced by Babel-17, Dhalgren,
    and Triton.
    
    DFW

    
    I've read _everything_ that Delany has written (including some serious
    XXX rated poststructuralist pornography, hard to find, but _real_
    interesting, called Tides of Lust), and Rydra Wong is one of my
    favorite characters.
    
    Delany really came out in a big way in his last Neveryona book 
    (title forgotten, I leave the 5000 books at home ;-) but I'll look
    it up if you're interested).  Neveryon is a pre-written-history
    world.  In it he discusses a plague which affects gay men and
    prostitutes and is decimating the population.  Interspersed with
    this story are Delany's real life experiences with AIDS and its
    victims, and his experiences as a gay man living in New York City.
    In particular he addresses "tricking" and promiscuous behavior among
    the NYC gay population.  In particular, he gives an example of a
    closeted man who "tricks" on the way home from work on the subway;
    the man in the example has anonymous sex with 3-4 different contacts
    per week, and is never home late to dinner with his wife.  That's
    over 200 anonymous contacts a year!  The book made a very powerful
    political statement about AIDS, the need for education, and safe
    sex!
    
    I also highly recommend his most recent, "Stars in My Pockets Like
    Grains of Sand".  In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any
    of Delany's work, with the disclaimer that if you hated James Joyce,
    you might not find Dhalgren readable (I loved it).
    
    Rita
    

One of the first authors to write "feminist" science fiction was
Robert Heinlien.  Many of his early books, especially those written
for a teen-age audience, had competent female main characters;
many of them scientists or engineers ("Rolling Stones", "The
Menace from Earth").

While Heinline can be embarrasingly cute at times (his sexual
scenes could render a goat impotent), he has generally presented
novels of sexual equality.

Martin.

    Some of the only SF books (which are about the only ones I read) I read
    which were written by women were the Anne McRafferty (I think that's
    her name) Dragon Song series.  Definitely written for the young
    girl turning woman group.  I also read the Thieves Worlds series
    in which some of the stories were written by women.  It was only
    until after I had read quite a bit before I realized that the ones
    I didn't like were by women.
    
    I can't exactly pinpoint the reason why I haven't liked any SF books
    by women, it has nothing to do with the woman as the main character.
    Some very good books written by men with a woman as the hero, or
    villian, are among my favorites.  I guess I just see a lack of
    violence and sex and an overdose of romance from the women authors.
    But maybe I've just been reading the wrong books.
         
    

    Anne McCafferty has written quite a few books based on Pern
    the planet where people fly on dragons. Only two of them -
    the Dragonsong/drums books are aimed more at younger readers
    and both make more sense when read in the context of the rest
    of the series.
    
    Other female writers of SF that I have enjoyed are Octavia Butler,
    Zenna Henderson, Andre Norton, and James Tiptree Jr.

    Regarding Babel-17, it's a great read, but I like it because of
    it's treatment of linguistics. The idea that if you don't have a
    word for a concept, you can't think about it is very intriguing
    to me. I'm not completely convinced, but it is compelling, and if
    true would bring a whole new dimension to inequality in language.
    
    This theory is one of the reasons I've made a conscious effort to
    change the way I speak. Since I don't want to think of women as
    "girls" or "gals", I don't EVER call them that (well, not unless
    I'm being deliberately offensive...) I call them women. Language
    has power, and (to get back to the subject) I like science fiction
    that explores this idea.
    
    Other interesting books involving the Worff Hypothesis are "Stranger
    in a Strange Land", "The Word for World is Forest", and most of
    Suzette Haden Elgin's stuff.
    
    As for feminist male authors, we can argue for weeks about Heinlein,
    I personally don't think he measures up as a feminist, true he has
    strong female characters, but I always get the feeling that he thinks
    they're somehow exceptional. Furthermore the rape scene in Friday
    was a disgusting display of male fantasy. Bleah.
    
    I vote for the late much lamented Theodore Sturgeon. I found his
    exploration of human sexuality much more convincing than Heinlein.
    
    But one of the best feminst science fiction authors was Racoona
    Sheldon, otherwise known as James Tiptree Junior. She really had
    the power to engage my thoughts and emotions, and was a truly powerful
    writer.
    
    I'm afraid I don't care much for Anne McCaffery's stuff. The short
    story "Weyrsearch" was great, but the rest of the Dragon books
    degenerated, and I found myself quickly tired of the "romantic
    women/macho men" attitudes I found throughout the series. I couldn't
    identify with the characters.
    
    I like Zenna Henderson's stuff, but she doesn't particularly write
    about women. Some yes, but I view her stuff as pretty mainstream.
    Enjoyable but not challenging.
    
    What do people think of Joanna Russ? I find her stuff very thought
    provoking, but I am put off by her stridency. I use her as the "fringe"
    that keeps me on my intellectual toes. I disagree with much of what
    she has to say, as being too extreme, but I feel a need to justify
    myself, so she keeps me intellectually honest. But she CAN grate
    on my nerves. What do other people think?
    
    	-- Charles

    I also disagree about Heinlein being feminist.  There are several
    cases of men being victimized by aggressive women (_Citizen_of_the_
    Galaxy_ and _Starship_Troopers_ (I think), contain examples).  A
    lot of the older novels and stories degenerate into playing house.
    
    [Another Worff Hypothesis novel is _The_Languages_of_Pao_ by Jack
    Vance.  But this is sort of off the topic, and the novel isn't at
    ALL feminist.]
    
    If you're going to call Russ fringe, then what about Alice Sheldon?
    Stories like "The Screwfly Solution" and "Houston Do You Read..."?
    I like Russ's critical eye; there's an excellent role reversal short
    story about a male android created just to be a pretty and dumb
    sex object--it's nauseating, but it's something you see all the
    time in the sideshows of a lot of science fiction, but with the
    genders reversed.  I have to admit, I haven't been able to face
    any Russ since _We_Who_Are_About_To..._, which is an excellent book,
    it's just that half of it is the protagnist starving to death after
    she's killed everyone else (well, it *was* necessary).  When I read
    Russ more often, I felt a lot less queasy, though, than I do reading
    quite a few Tiptree stories.  Russ is better at the novel form,
    also.  [It's not science fiction, although it does contain some
    quotations, but I enjoyed her nonfiction _How_To_Suppress_Women's_
    Writing_.  I very much recommend it.  It's disturbing to have pointed
    out just how little of the college curricula include literature
    by women.  I used it as a source book for finding a wealth of
    literature by women, that I never would have found on my own.  And
    such books I've found!]
    
    I was pledged to never forgive McCaffrey for _Restoree_ (sick! sick!
    sick!) but I've since heard that she wrote it as a joke.  Yes, the
    dragon books get to be a bit much, but Lessa at least doesn't have
    to be the most gorgeous creature on the planet, a failing of too
    many heroines.
    
    Pat Wrede's latest, _Caught_In_Crystal_, is one of her more feminist,
    I suppose, since the protagnist is an innkeeper and former swordswoman
    who gets called on a quest by her old associates.  A quest she can't
    ignore, but now she's got two kids.  Yeah, you get gentle romances
    in her books, but I'm kept afloat by the fact that women have the
    same jobs as men and nobody bats an eye.
    
    Nobody's mentioned Bradley.  I can't abide her writing.
    
    In Pamela Dean's _The_Secret_Country_ and _The_Hidden_Land_ the
    current ruler of the Secret Country is a King, but there are all
    those women guards, and mention is made of the Queen's council
    (but you don't see the queen), and I think there are hints of sometimes
    a queen rules rather than a king.  Both genders can be equally good
    at magic. 
    
    Name a LeGuin novel with a female protagnist.  I can't.  Sure, in
    _The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness_, people were both, but she used 
    masculine pronouns and other references.  Yes, there is a short
    story (published outside the novel) where she switches to using
    feminine pronouns.  Still.  I don't know if this is because she's
    of the old school of proper grammar and will refuse to use "they"
    as a singular pronoun of indeterminate gender (so will Dean) instead
    of "he", or what.  I suspect it might be something of that sort,
    but also that she aims to be writing to our mythic tradition (see
    her book of essays _The_Language_of_the_Night (I think)), which
    is pitifully lacking in active feminine pronouns.  [Ug.  I thought
    of one.  _The_Beginning_Place_ has a female and a male protagnist.
    Don't read it, though.]  Don't mind me, I read nearly everything
    I can find by LeGuin (except for that book with that cassette, whatever
    it is).  But I do think she's copping out.
    
    Which brings me to a book I just finished, _Don't_Bet_On_The_Prince_,
    editted by Jack Zipes.  No, it's not dreadful preachy feminist fairy tales,
    :-) like those amusing but strange modified mother goose rhymes that
    have been published in the last couple of years.
    It's nice fairy tales, with active female characters.  In one gem,
    the king and queen have the usual three princes, well, except the youngest
    is really a princess, and she runs off and has a quest too--she
    goes off to rescue a prince from the clutches of a wizard (or something
    like that).  There're two sections: one of stories appropriate for
    all ages (with a Jane Yolen story, yay!), one of stories for an older 
    set (included in this section is Margaret Atwood's "Bluebeard's
    Egg", which I don't think would interest your six-year-old).  
    And at the end are some essays about feminine images in fairy tales 
    and the general yuckiness of the role models there for girls.  Sorry
    for going on and on, but it's a book I've wanted to read for !ages!.
                                                     
    I don't know if LeGuin, Dean, Wrede, Bull, or Heinlein would describe
    themselves or their writing as feminist.  They might. 
    (Bradley, yes?  Anybody know?)  (Did Alice Sheldon make any such 
    declaration? I don't remember.)  It's not just making do, I really 
    appreciate a book that has equal roles for both women and men. 
    And after all these years of reading books with only male heroes
    who go off and do things, it's so nice to find ones where the females
    go off and do things.
    
    It's kind of reassuring.
                            

>    Other interesting books involving the Worff Hypothesis are 

     And Douglas Hofstedetr, Metamagical Themas, a collection of
     essays that "feels" like sci-fi without the plot.  It includes
     an essay that examines sexist & racist language by creating a
     word set for blacks based on the root "octaroon" and examines the
     derivatives and effects.  Funny, breathtaking, illuminating.
     (Someone should do a research project on the power and endurance of
     "no white shoes after Labor Day.")

    About ten years ago I wrote a fan letter to Heinlein but also said he
    was a bit sexist but so was I, and we should both work on it. 
    He wrote back, said he was trying hard, and his wife helped by beating 
    him when he slipped. He expected to be perfect if he lived
    as long as Lazarus.  Let's.

    I've always loved sci-fi that surprised me with totally new concepts 
    and devices.  Henderson's Anything Box, Asimov's Mule with the emotion
    dial, Heinlein's old one.  I think it was Stranger In a Strange Land that 
    presented the society in which being late incurred the death penalty.
    And I'd like to try a line-marriage. Heinlein and Henderson should be 
    req'd reading in soc-101.  ABC et al can go for weeks between new ideas.

    Another plus for Henderson and Heinlein ... they have full familes, 
    babies to old folks.  So many American books and movies portray worlds
    that begin at 16 and end at 24.  As in, if you're not mating or 
    warring, it's not worth showing.           Meigs           

        I haven't seen John Varley mentioned.  Do you feel that the
    Titan/Wizard/Demon trilogy was feminist, or did it just feature
    strong female characters?
    
    ASP

    Hey, this is a *great* topic!  You could get me raving for *weeks*
    on this one!
    
    re: .13: 
    
    > Nobody's mentioned Bradley.  I can't abide her writing.
    
    I did mention Bradley in passing.  I think she's terribly sexist
    in a feminist supremist sort of way, especially her Free Amazon
    stuff, but...true confession time, I love it and read it any way;
    It kinda balances the Heinlein I read.  I think he's pretty sexist,
    too, but I'm hooked :-)  Also, MZB's _Mists_Of_Avalon_ was really
    above par for her.  It is a (large) volume of Aurthurian   (sp?)
    legend written from a female viewpoint, ie; Vivienne, Morgaine,
    Gwenefyre.  What a marvelous concept!  The intro chapter in the personna
    of Morgaine _alone_ was worth what I paid for the hardcover edition.
    
    >In Pamela Dean's _The_Secret_Country_ and _The_Hidden_Land_ the
    
    Where can I get Pamela Dean's work (other than going to Minneapolis
    and asking her for copies :-))?  I read a little of it prior to
    its publication.  I worked with her husband, an ex-DECcie, in Marlboro
    a few years back, and I'm dying to read what she's written!  (I
    live in the Boston area.)
    
    re .15:
    
    I haven't read Varley's trilogy, so I can't comment.  I've read
    his short story collections, _Persistance_of_Vision_, and
    _Blue_Champagne_ , and thought they were pretty nonsexist.
    _Blue_Champagne_ also contains a couple of *great* short stories
    which show *heavy* computer hacker influence.  And surprise! the
    last story in the book (name of story escapes me) features a hotshot
    woman hacker! (Yahooo!)  And he has the hacker culture down!  In
    the story, his protagonist gets her man by wearing a tshirt (she
    only has tshirts and jeans in her wardrobe - another yahoo!) with
    a picture of a screw and a large "P" underneath it.  (LISPish way
    of requesting sex - I LOOOVED it, this is my kinda woman!)
    
    re: Whoever it was that mentioned Theodore Sturgeon:
    
    I just read _Godbody_, his last work, and really enjoyed it.  It
    was somewhat reminiscent of _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_, minus
    Heinlein_gooey_sexist_nonsense.  I heard it rumoured that he died
    prior to its completion, and it was finished by his wife (Rowena,
    of the marvelous SF artwork fame?).  Anyone know the truth about
    this?
    
    Also, how about _Stardance_ by Jeanne and Spider Robinson?  *ANY*
    couple that can write a book together (especially such a good one!)
    and have their marriage come thru intact gets extra credit in my
    accounting!
    
    I picked up a volume of Lesbian and Gay themed SF recently, but
    I'll need to go thru my library to remember who edited/contributed
    and what the title was.  I remember it *was* a good read, and was
    published by a house in Boston. 
                
    Also, does Margaret Atwood's _The_Handmaiden's_Tale count as SF?
    On good days I hope it does, on bad days I'm sure it doesn't :-(
    Powerful book, in any case.
    
    Rita
    
    
    
                                

    re .16
    
    Rita the story with the female hacker is "Press Enter" I also
    loved it and read it several times (tho the ending depresses the
    %&#@ out of me).
    
    I think that Handmaids Tale is excellant SF - tho when I tried to
    enter a topic on it in the SF notes file no one responded....
    
    I do like Bradley also I must confess (isn't it great that we
    all have different tastes). Her earlier books on DarkOver were
    fairly typical male dominated sword and scorcery types. It appears
    that a lot of female readers really picked up on her Amazon guild
    and as a result she has gone with tales of that side of the society
    more recently (especially with the stories by the Friends of Darkover).
    I would also agree that Mists of Avalon is by far and away her best
    book - and deserves a place with the rest of the classic retellings
    of the Arthurian Legend.
    
    
    There is a story in "More Women of Wonder" called "Tin Soldier" that
    I especially like - with women being the only ones able to pilot
    the space ships at FTL speeds, and a nearly immortal (male) bartender
    who falls in love with one such woman and waits for her over the
    years.
    
    Finally I will agree with an earlier writer that I have not been
    able to read Joanna Russ since her "We Who are About to..." 

    Bonnie

    Marion Zimmer Bradley (MZB) has her feminist moments, but it is
    very clear that she is coming FROM the perspective of a male dominated
    society as the norm that pretty much everyone accepts.   Note that
    her Amazons are outcasts and MZB makes it plain that some of the
    chained women wouldn't WANT to be unchained.  The one book she wrote
    about a society where men were considered inferior, the men were busy
    revolting (ISIS?).
    
    Try the short story Whileaway by Joanna Russ.   Absolutely fantastic.
    The opening paragraph starts with a couple driving along in a car,
    and the person in the suicide seat describing the driver, the wife.
    How the driver is wizzing along at ridiculous speeds--as Russ writes
    you pick up the fact that there are rampant stereotypes on women
    drivers...  That story plays far out mindgames with the reader.
    I could describe it more clearly, but then you folks would miss
    the fun of the surprise.     
    
    As for new authors, has anyone read Mercedes Lackey's book
    _Arrows_of_the_Queen_?     A polished writer Lackey may not be,
    but the book is fun reading.     I must admit that I almost didn't
    read it through due to the first page which begins with a girl-child
    doing what (the book informed me) GIRLS aren't supposed to be
    doing--READING.  It occurs to me that Lackey did that so that *we*,
    the readers, would have someone to identify with--because the rest
    of the book takes for granted that women do *anything*.    After
    all, the soveriegn of the kingdom is a queen, and the next most
    important person in the kingdom is female--and it really feels like
    it doesn't matter!   --And if you like horses, they also are main
    characters.
    
    Tamar

    RE:.16
    
    >I just read _Godbody_, his last work, and really enjoyed it.  It
    >was somewhat reminiscent of _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_, minus
    >Heinlein_gooey_sexist_nonsense.  I heard it rumoured that he died
    >prior to its completion, and it was finished by his wife (Rowena,
    >of the marvelous SF artwork fame?).  Anyone know the truth about
    >this?
          
    Ted had drafted _Godbody_, but I don't think it was a final draft.
    His wife, Jayne Taynehill (I don't think that's the correct spelling),
    Lady Janye to anyone who knew them, is an author in her own right
    and would have been more than capable of completing it to Ted's
    satisfaction. I don't know for sure that this is what happened,
    but I never heard that anyone else finished the manuscript, either.
    
    Tamzen

    MZB sexist?!
    
    Yes her early books are sword/slasher, with post-adolescent males
    as protagonists, but these days that not at all true: some of her
    most powerful characters are women who do whatever the heck they
    want, men be d***ed.
    
    Also, I could have sworn she was Lesbian: perhaps the early stories
    were from before she came out??
    
    Lee

    re MZB:
    
    >Also, I could have sworn she was Lesbian: perhaps the early stories
    >were from before she came out??
    
    Lee, I realize this doesn't unequivocably determine MZB's sexual
    orientation, but she _is_ married.  Her first husband was Paul Zimmer
    Bradley, by whom she had at least one (maybe more) child.  She is
    currently married to Walter Breen, a writer of some fame in the
    occult literature world.  The two of them traveled to Stonehenge
    and other places together prior to MZB's writing _Mists_Of_Avalon_.
    
    Rita
    

MZB has also written explicitly gay literature.  Several -- if not
all -- of the recent books in the Darkover series have gay/bi/lesbian
characters and themes.  She also wrote a gay non-sf novel called,
I believe, "The Catch Trap."

Her books never struck me as being particularly "feminist", unless
feminism means nothing more that "anything a man can do, a woman
can do better."

While on the subject of science fiction, you might consider reading
the David Brin novels "Sundiver," "Startide Rising," and "The Uplift
War."  These -- especially Startide Rising -- deal with an interaction
between human-people and newly-emergent species (dolphins, chimpanzees)
who were given intelligence by humans.  Some of the issues that are
raised ("Can a dolphin be an effective starship captain") sound
strangely familiar.  Also, Brin is a much better writer than Bradley.

Martin.

    The other day I picked up the first (I blush to say this) woman-
    written SF that I've enjoyed since Andre Norton and Zenna Henderson.
    Cynthia Felice.  She actually does non-cutesy-poo dialog! 
    
    						=maggie

MZB's orientation: She's been publishd in a gay & lesbian science 
fiction anthology, along with Samuel Delaney, John Varley, Joanna Russ
and others I can't think of at the moment.  Last I knew, she was living 
in a totally female household (even the cats).

	I love MZB and Darkover and don't care what her sexual preferences
	are. Try reading Forbidden_Tower for some steamy sex. She admits it
	took her awhile to get brave enough to write it. I thought ISIS was
	good and hoped she'd write another like it.

	As for Hienlein (sp) - after Number_of_the_beast I won't buy another
	one of his books. What a piece of crap!!!

	Try Shards of Honor for a great love/war/scifi novel. Lois Bjolhd (sp)

	Also The Book of Kantela is a wonderful read and I'm dying for the
	next book in the series.

	Just an aside - all GOR novels should be burned and destroyed. These
	are the sorts of books that pander to sick minds. I bought one
	unknowing and threw it out after a couple of chapters. liesl 

    My word - we have book-burners in our midst?  What harm did that
    collection of wood pulp ever do to you?
    
    I have never read a Gor book, and never plan to do so.  There's
    lots of stuff I won't bother reading, but I'd NEVER advocate denying
    someone else the ability to read it if they want to.  What gives 
    you the right to dictate what others can and can't read?  Who appointed
    you Lady High Censor, anyway?
    
    If you burn Gor books, maybe we can throw in some of Andrea Dworkin's
    stuff for good measure.  And then a lot of the stuff mentioned in
    these notes - surely some people will find them offensive.  Personally,
    I've never read a Joanna Russ story I've liked; shall we burn her
    books too?
    
    Remember that tolerance is a two-way street.
    
    					Steve

    Well, well, I guess I shoulda stuck in one of those stupid smiley
    face :-) :-)
    
    Certainly if _you_ wish to read trashy sexist pulp which serves
    to give serious sf authors a bad rep, be my guest, read all the
    GOR you can lay your hands on.  I have no interest in denying you
    or anyone else that dubious pleasure.  Any that comes my way will
    find a home in the nearest woodstove, and yes, that goes for any
    Andrea Dworkin that reaches my home, too.  I have no intention of
    denying anyone else the right to read anything they want to (you can 
    go and read RPG manuals if you're brain damaged enough to enjoy it
    :-)).  It is a right that is constitutionally guaranteed to all
    of us.  
    
    My note was intended as an expression of the level of disgust I
    have for "literature" like GOR.  As far as I'm concerned, GOR is
    not useful as anything other than kindling. I am certainly not
    advocating censorship in any way, shape, or form.  Burning all GOR
    novels would require me to first buy them all, and I am not willing
    to put that much $$$ into the hands of the sexist jerk author :-)
    
    The only true form of "censorship" I can advocate is economic. 
    I just don't buy the crap.  When others have enough sensitivity
    to sexism in literature, then there will be no market for it, and
    I'll have to cut wood, like everyone else :-)
    
    For the record:
    
    o I have never burned any book (although I did torch a roommate's
      Ramones album once :-))
    
    o Out of the 5000 or so books in my possesion, none are GOR or Andrea
      Dworkin.
    
    o I own more than one copy of Farenheit 451
    

    No matter how trashy, sexist, racist, or generally_evil a book is,
    I cannot bring myself to burn it or throw it away.
    
    My feeling is that no matter the quality of the book, its very nature
    -- WRITTEN WORDS -- makes it priceless.  If a piece of trash
    [metaphorically speaking, of course :) ] can bring even one more
    human being into the world of reading, that alone is worth more
    than the cover price.  If a right wing extremist reads Karl Marx
    ONLY TO FIND EXCUSES TO HATE communism, it is still better than having
    that person rely on what Ronbo&Co say on TV.  If that extremist
    reads exclusively right wing literature [if one can call THAT
    "literature" <very sarcastic> ], it is still one battle won in the
    war against illiteracy.
    
    Yes GOR is awful stuff.  But adolescent fiction has its place: perhaps
    10% of the boys [I cannot imagine girls wanting to read that, but
    maybe I'm a sexist at heart :) ] who read it will go on to read
    Heinlein, then Bradbury, then Sturgeon, then Ellison.  The
    publishers/authors of the GOR series do us a favor.  Granted I would
    prefer Heinlein-style adolescent SF but most anything helps.
    
    That reminds me: no one has mentioned Harlan Ellison.  I must say
    he is among the most vocal and radical feminists I have ever read.
    His essays _An Edge In My Voice_ are  fantastic.  Arrogant?  Yes,
    certainly.  Powerful?  Even more certainly, Yes.
    
    His fiction is feminist, too : was it "Croation" that described
    a man who met up with [read on only if VERY strong of stomach]
    
    the [still viable] embryo's aborted by the zillions of girlfriends
    he helped "get in trouble" -- they got flushed down the toilet and
    lived in the sewer.
    
    _I Have No Mouth... was a reworking of Sartre's  No Exit [Huis Clos],
    and had a black woman as the strongest character.
    
    He ticks me off with his self-centered-ness, but is in my opinion
    one of the finest writers alive today.  And he hates to have his
    work classified as SF... :)
    
    Lee

    Earlier the question of feminist characters by LeGuin was mentioned...
    
    "The Day Before the Revolution" is definitely a feminist story...
    about an old woman remembering how she became the leading figure
    in a revolution. If there anyone who would like to  read it (and *promises* 
    to return my book) I could be persuaded to lend it.

    I was given a Gor book by a man I worked with who thought it was
    very funny to see my reaction to it.....back in my more radical
    twenties....I managed to disappoint him in my public reactions...
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    Then there's Sharon Green(e?).
    

    Please explain further....I missed Ms Green(e?)

        Ms. Greene (I think there is a final e), writes adolescent
        fantasy trash ofthe level ofthe later Gor books, though
        apparently with a rather different bent. (Never read one other
        than skimming a page or two in the store.)
        
        For what it's worth, the first couple of Gor novels are merely
        run of the mill trashy John Carter-style other world fantasies.
        I actually enjoyed the sereies at first. Norman sort of took a
        while to warm up to the slavery and chains bit. I was quite
        disappointed in the way the series devolved. (You had to know I
        read the Gor books and would defend them, now didn't you?) I
        agree that the later ones are worthless trash, though.
        
        JimB.

    I will shamelessly admit I'm trying to change the subject away from
    GOR...
    
    I *LOVE* John Varley's stuff. In his later stories he takes the
    ability to choose and change sex for granted, and that in itself
    makes some WONDERFUL opportunities for blowing away stereotypes.
    But one of his best short stories explores that period of time when
    changing sex is just coming into fashion. This stable married woman
    comes to decide that she wants to try being male, and her husband
    can't handle it! I mean, it says ALL SORTS of threatening things
    about his sexuality. Furthermore, if his wife's a man, what does
    that make HIM?! IT'S GREAT!
    
    Sorry, I got all het up there. Varley does that to me. I didn't
    find Titan/Wizard/Demon particularly feminst, but it seemed pretty
    non-sexist to me. After all, all of the major characters I can think
    of were women, and strong ones at that.
    
    Oh, I believe Harlan Ellison's short story referred to was "Croatoan".
    Wasn't that the inscription they found on a tree at the failed <mumble>
    colony on the east coast back in the 1700's?
    
    (Apropos Russ) I really like the Alyx stories, about a wonderful female
    thief.. Alice Sheldon while radical, fills me with a "righteous anger",
    Russ, on the other hand fills me with "this premise is NUTS". "We who
    are about to..." made me feel that way, I think mostly because I
    couldn't by the actions of the men. I realize that many men have used
    the same "Garden of Eden" scenario with somewhat different results :-)
    but that was bad art too...
    
    Wasn't the main character of "The Dispossessed" a woman? It's been
    a while, I admit. Perhaps one of the reasons I think of LeGuin as
    a feminst author is because I got to audit a class she taught at
    UCSD on science fiction.
    
    MZB a feminst? Welll... not really, I think she's just a good author,
    and doesn't (usually) have an axe to grind. Take Lythande for example
    (one of my favorites) Lythande is definitely a woman in a man's role
    :-) and would be a great foil for making some feminst statements, but
    MZB (in my opinion) sticks to using Lythande merely (!) in some
    wonderful stories.
    
    	-- Charles

    re -1:  I read that Varley story and loved it too [figures, eh?].
    There are times when I wish we ALL got a chance to be male and
    female; then we'd have more of an idea  what is our gender, and
    what is _us_.
    
    I never read Russ before, but just found a short story collection
    from the Women's press (UK) which includes one of hers.  The following
    is an excerpt from a really hysterical story: The Cliches From Outer
    Space.  Enjoy.
    
    Disclaimer: while this is super-funny, it is also extremely
    offensive, so don't take it personally please.  It is a SATIRE!
    
    "               The Weird_Ways_Of_Getting_Pregnant Story
    
    `"Eegh!  Argh!  Eegh!'  cried Sheila Sue Hateman in uncontrollable
    ecstasy as the giant alien male orchid arched over her, pollinating
    her every orifice.  She -- yes, she -- she, Sheila Sue Hateman,
    who had always been frigid nasty and unresponsive!  She remembered
    how at parties ahe had avoided men who were attracted by her bee-stung,
    pouting, red mouth, long, honey-coloured hair, luscious behind and
    proud, upthrusting breasts (they were a nuisance, those breasts,
    they sometimes got so proud and thrust up so far that they knocked
    her in the chin.  She always pushed them down again).  How she hated
    and avoided men!  Sometimes she had hidden under sofas.  She had
    stood behind open doors for hours on end.  Often she had wrapped
    herself in the window curtains, hoping to be mistaken for a swatch
    of fabric.
    	`But this was... different
    	`Ecstacy pounded through her every nerve.  How she had wanted
    this!  Now she would have children.  Would they emerge as a bushel
    of seeds?  A tangle of leaves?  Would one of her toes fall out and
    root itself in the ground?  It didn't matter.  Whatever her son
    would be like (and she knew, somewhere deep inside her, that she
    would have a son) she would love it because it would be His.
    	`Realisation poured through her: *She really loved men*!
    	`She had loved them all along.  But she had been afraid.  Afraid
    of their strength, their attractiveness, their gentleness, their
    cute way of saying, "Hey honey, that's a great pair of boobs you
    got there," which had set her heart racing.
    	`She remembered Boris's direct, strong gaze, and the crushing
    power of his beautiful arms as he had attempted to rip off her clothes.
    	`She remembered Ngaio's twinkly, humorous politeness as he said,
    "The reason that you keep disagreeing with my intellectual conclusions,
    Sheila, is that you're a bitch."
    	`She remembered Jose's tender, masculine protectiveness as he
    had said, "We can't hire you, Sheila, because this is a man's job.
     It's too difficult for a woman."
    	`She really loved men.
    	`"Eegh! Argh! Oh! Oh! Argh! Eegh!" cried Sheila Sue, convulsing
    all over the place.
    	`The giant orchid tenderly wrapped its fronds...'
    
    [another cliche from outer space:]
    
                           The Turnabout Story
                                    or
                 I always knew what they wanted to do to me 
                because I've been doing it to them for years, 
                         especially in the movies
    
    `Four ravaging, man-hating, vicious, hulking, Lesbian, sadistic,
    fetishistic Women's Libbers motorcycled down the highway to where
    George was hiding behind a bush.  Each was dressed in black leather,
    spike-heeled boots, and carried both a tommygun and a whip, as well
    as knives between their teeth.  Some had cut off their breasts. 
    Their names were Dirty Sandra, Hairy Harriet, Vicious Vivian, and
    Positively Ruthless Ruth.  They dragged George ( a sandy-haired
    fellow with spectacles, but with a keen mind and an iron will) from
    behind the bush he was hiding in.  Then they beat him.  Then they
    reduced him to flinders.  Then they squashed the flinders to slime.
     Then they jumped up and down on the slime.
    	`"Women are better than men!" cried Dirty Sandra.
    	`"Lick my boots!" cried Hairy Harriet.
    	`"Drop your pants; I'm going to rape you!" cried Vicious Vivian
    in her gravelly bass voice.
    	`Ruthless Ruth said nothing (she never did; it was rumoured among
    the gang that she had never learned to talk) but only chewed her
    cigar and flicked open an eight-inch-long, honed-steel, poisoned,
    barbed, glittering knife!  Growling, she moved towards George.
    	`And these women are financially supported by their husbands!
    thought George.  Those poor, terrified males fastened to the bedroom
    door by diabolically constructed chain-link thongs, which only let
    them loose to make money!
    	`Our hero thought his time had come.  But suddenly Ruthless
    Ruth turned green, smoke came pouring out of her ears, her facial
    expression changed, and she fell to the ground, writhing.
    	`It was that time of the month!
    	`Dirty Sandra and Hairy Harriet likewise turned green, lost
    their judgement, dithered, turned six or seven colours, and groaned,
    wallowing on the ground and clutching their stomachs.  They were
    in no condition to do anything to anybody now.
    	`That left Vicious Vivian.  In mid-snarl she changed, too, but
    differently; she slank towards George, her mouth pouting, her body
    inviting, her large, moist eyes pleading with him to give her what
    she needed.
    	`It was the other time of the month for her.
    	`"Tell me, Vicious Vivian," said small, sandy-haired, iron-willed,
    bespectacled, heroic George; "Where is your centre of command, who
    is your leader, and what are your battle plans?"
    	`"I will tell you everything," sobbed Vicious Vivian in a gentle
    soprano, melting to her knees and embracing George's calves in the
    extremity of her biological need.  "I adore you.  I want you.  I
    need you.  I can't help it."  And she told him everything, nibbling
    at his knees and sighing between-whiles.  "Oh, take me with you!"
    she cried; "I love you and I have betrayed The Cause!"
    	`"You couldn't help it," George said compassionately, and stealing
    her motorcycle, he rode off into the sunset.  He must get his secret
    to the Humane Instruments of Monumentality in Sausalito.  Now he
    knew why female scientific brains only worked in the rare few days
    between that time of the month and the other time of the month.
    Once the HIMS had this information (and a calendar) they could
    use it to take the world back from Women's Liberation and build
    a truly free and egalitarian society for everyone, not just men
    but women, too (taking into account their special physical needs,
    of course).
    	`George's bad back, stuffed sinuses, flat feet, trick knee,
    migraine headache, hayfever, bladder infection, and angina pectoris
    began to.......'
    
    [editorial comment:  hee-hee, ooh-haw-haw, giggle, snort...]
    

    Lee

At a Boskone [Boston Science Fiction Convention] a few years ago, I ate
brunch sitting next to C. J. Cherryh.  (Yet another feminist SF author.)
Her publisher (forgot her name) sat next to her.

In my sweetest, most innocent tone of voice, I asked whether "John Norman"
really believed the Gor novels he wrote.

Publisher began a probably well rehearsed speech on how the profits from
this line of pornography (aimed at teen-aged boys) subsidized their
publication of new (many female) authors.  (Also "'Norman's' wife is
a feminist and he's really a philosophy professor" and stuff like that.)

Being a generally nice person (and recognizing that we were, after all,
eating a meal together), I refrained from asking Ms Cherryh how she
liked the suggestion that she couldn't hack it without the support of
this trash.

Never did find out whether he believed what he wrote.  If you're stuck
in a mall, you ought to pick up a Gor book at random, and see how far
you get before you hit a bondage scene.  I've never had to turn the
page twice.  Guess I'm just lucky.

Martin.

        Martin,
        
        I don't remember the publisher's name either, but I have talked
        with C.J. Cherryh enough to know that she has a very strong
        sense of her self-worth and a willingness to go out on a limb to
        get what she wants or to do what needs to be done. I'm sure that
        she realizes that it takes a lot of support to become a
        successful author, especially if one doesn't want to be just
        another copy of an existing stereotype.
        
        Her views, as I remember them, on feminist issues were not of
        the strident or adamant variety, but of the "there's a lot of
        sexist crap in the world, but I'll be damned if it's going to
        stop me" school. She is the kind of person who is determined to
        succeed, and who will support others, but is not likely to waste
        a lot on anger or frustration. 
        
        If you had asked "how she liked the suggestion that she couldn't
        hack it without the support of this trash", my impression is
        that her reaction would be that with or without John Norman she
        would succeed at what she was doing, but that the fact that her
        publisher was a bit freer to take risks because of the Gor-
        income may have speeded up the process, and she would be foolish
        to refuse the opportunity.
        
        She is also independant enough and tough minded enough that if
        you offered her the choice of ending the Gor series and
        diminishing the amount of crap that reinforced the kind of
        images that it plays upon at the cost of not having the support
        that came from it, I suspect she'd rather go it alone.
        
        I don't swear to the above but it is the impression she gives me
        at least. 
        
        Using the income from the John Norman stuff to leverage more
        good young female authors is much better than using it for some
        other purpose. Given the demand for Gor and its ilk, it isn't
        likely that the decision not to publish him by one publisher
        would cause him to go away, it would just shift the income to
        someone else.
        
        For my money it is much better to concentrate on supporting good
        feminist authors and promulgating their views on life than it is
        to try to repress sexism. In the end, you achive far more
        through the promotion of right thinking than through attempts to
        censor or repress wrong thinking. Opposition often strengthens
        ideas rather than weakening them.
        
        Oh, yes, and as I remember it, your question of what Norman
        believed came up once or twice more during the week-end, and the
        answer was that he was probably basically just a hack who was in
        it for the money and not someone pushing a view. 
        
        JimB.

    
    The Gor books:
    
    They gave us some interesting costume ideas for a party once.
    Otherwise, they're just middle-grade pulp.  I've read one or two,
    having been put in the situation that they were around and there
    was nothing to do.  However, I'm a big boy, and realize that
    even for pulp:
    
    The plots are thin.
    The background is thinner.
    The fight scenes are badly written.
                                                   
    Much sound and fury, signifying nothing
    
    DFW

    WORLDS APART
    
    An Anthology of Lesbian and Gay Science Fiction and Fantasy
    Edited by Camilla Decarnin, Eric Garber, and Lyn Paleo
    
    Boston, Alyson Publications, Inc.
    First Printing July 1986, ISBN 0-932870-87-2
    
    Contents:
    
    Harper Conan and Singer David		-Edgar Pangborn
    Houston, Houston, Do You Read?		-James Tiptree, Jr
    To Keep The Oath				-Marion Zimmer Bradley
    Do Androids Dream of Electric Love?		-Walt Liebscher
    Lollipop and the Tar Baby			-John Varley
    The Mystery of the Young Gentleman		-Joanna Russ
    The Gods of Reorth				-Elizabeth A. Lynn
    Find the Lady				-Nicholas Fisk
    No Day Too Long				-Jewelle Gomez
    Full Fathom Five My Father Lies		-Rand B. Lee
    Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones
    						-Samuel R. Delany
    
    

    Don't know if this one qualifies : "The Rainbow Cadenza" by
    J.Neil Schulman. The author creates a world where males
    outnumber females 7 to 1, and "Make Love Not War" has been
    implemented on a vast scale. Instead of drafting young males
    to fight, young women are drafted for three year terms to
    sexually service unattached males. The story focuses around
    Joan Darris, an artist in the new field of Lasegraphy, an
    art using colored laser light. Her struggle to develop her
    art and maintain her sanity in this world forms the plot of
    this book. The story abound with new concepts, and old words
    take on very different meanings from current usage. Men are
    elevated in status when they declare themselves gay, there is
    an underclass hunted for sport, Wicce is the dominant religion,
    new forms of music abound. 
    
    Published by Avon Books, New York.

Marion Zimmer Bradley	"Mists of Avalon"	GREAT
			Recent Darkover stories

Anne McCaffrey		"The Ship Who Sang"	Very Good
			Pern Stories		Good

Vonda McIntyre		"Superluminal"		Just
			"The Exile Waiting"	Good
			"Dreamsnake"		Writing

Robin McKinley		"The Blue Sword"	For Fun
			"The Hero & the Crown"

Patricia McKillip	"MoonFlash"		Good
			"The Moon and the Face" Good

Lydia Obuknova		"Daughter of Night"	Very Good
  (A Soviet Writer)

Joanna Russ		"Extra(Ordinary) People" GREAT
			Anything by her

Pamela Sargent, ed	Women of Wonder Series	Great place
						to start

James Triptree, Jr.	"Women Men Never See"	WONDERFUL
			Almost anything else
			she wrote		Very Good

Joan D. Vinge		"The Snow Queen"	Good
			Other stuff is also	good

Patricia Wrede		"Shadow Magic"		Good
			"Caught in Crystal"	Good

There are many others that I can not think of because I don't own
the books.

_peggy		(-)
		 |	The Goddess inspires alternatives

    re .16 (PCD books)
    
    Er, um, well, I have a spare copy of "The Secret Country", if you
    want (3 is more than I usually need; 2 is fine).  I still see both
    in bookstores, but "The Hidden Land" more often.  These are the
    only two out yet.  If you have problems finding them, tell me: 
    I go to Harvard Square too often for my checking account's health anyway.
                    
    Actually: go to your bookstore and ask, too.  I'd still go to
    bookstores and fetch for you, but if we ask they might think it's
    good to order.                                                   
    
    Her publisher is Ace/Berkeley/...
    
    re others
    
    It's  Lois Mcmaster Bujold.  I haven't managed to read her books
    although I returned from Minneapolis with all of them.  I recommend
    her friend, Lillian Stewart Carl: "Sabazel" and "The Winter King".
    I think Bujold's publisher is Tor or maybe Baen; Carl's is Ace?
    Carl has captured the best thought out amazon culture that coexists
    with other societies--far better than "The Sword is Forged" by
    Evangeline Walton.  Carl also has great sex scenes!  (tee hee)
    
    I considered Varley's "Titan" to be voyeuristic more than feminist,
    so I gave up.
    
    Harlan Ellison has been on my list of favorites for a long time,
    but even he admits that he's learned over the years.  Some of his 
    earlier stuff is definitely not feminist.  I messed up on this 
    about Heinlein: sorry, we all need time to learn.
    
    Now, the discussions I've been having with authors and editors about
    Norman is that he is entirely serious.  (And he has two daughters,
    ack, etc...).  I don't know if these people have actually met the
    man.  My little sister's friend was addicted to Gor books; it's
    often talked about that they are popular with women, that they're
    DAW books steady bankroll, allowing DAW a financial margin with
    which to experiment by publishing _good_ and less
    "safe" fiction (that is, of unknown market value, like stuff by 
    new authors).  Rumors, rumors, rumors.  I've never touched the Gor
    stuff.
    

    re: .25  I'm curious - when was Number of the Beast published?
    
    Steve
    

< Note 391.43 by CYBORG::MALLETT >
                                -< A question >-

<    re: .25  I'm curious - when was Number of the Beast published?
    

	I don't think I looked to see. I'll check it. Did you feel, as I
	did that the characters were too phoney-baloney to deal with.

	I also nearly choked when they 'landed' on OZ. Give me a break.
	"suspension of disbelief" is necessary in any fantasy but he 
	went beyond my ability to suspend. liesl    

    He had he brain surgury after Midamericon, and wrote _Number_
    after that.  Midamericon was in...ah...1976.  Yes.  George Lucas
    had some promotional material for an sf movie he was making,
    which came out the following year.
    
    So I think it was published in 1977.
    
    							Ann B.

    re .44 And who says that the sixth dimension *isn't* fiction ?

< Note 391.43 by CYBORG::MALLETT >
                                -< A question >-

<    re: .25  I'm curious - when was Number of the Beast published?
    

	My book, a Ballantine edition, was from 1980. They mention that
	it was in it's eleventh printing in 1985. It would seem my dislike
	is a minority opinion. I took another look, still crap. liesl

When I read it, I got the impression that Number of the Beast was
Heinlien's "goodbye" to his friends.  In the last chapter (if you
can get that far) is populated by several dozen science fiction
authors (and well known fans) introduced more-or-less by name.
It's also the first time he pulls in characters from his earlier
books into the story (a task he continued with the subsequent books).

I do wish that he would lay off the interminable philosphy discussions.
If I wanted to re-read Shaw's Man and Superman, I'd read that instead.

Martin.

    Re. NOTB The same charachters reappear in The Cat Who Walks
    Through Walls and finally in To Sail Beyond The Sunset. This
    last is probably his goodbye to all his fans, especially us
    sappy types who like happy endings. I won't spoil it for 
    you (besides the book cost me 17 bucks :-) .)  I will say
    that the lead charachter, Maureen Smith, is quite a gal.

    
    Yeah, I get the feeling that "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" will be
    his last. It's got a peaceful, sort of resigned feel to it--like
    he knows he's at the end and he thinks his life has been...what...
    good...satisfactory...worthwhile..fulfilling...and it's time to
    move on...
    
    He even goes full circle (forgive the pun) and brings back Dr. Hugo
    Pinerio (sp?) from "Lifeline," his first published story. (Not to
    mention Drs. Douglas and Martin, and about a thousand others, though
    I think he missed Fader Randell and Persperone...:-) )
    
    E.

	I have just bought MZB's newest Sword and Sorcery anthology and
	she makes quite a counter-attack against feminists telling her
	what she can put in her books. This current one has 50% male
	authors and MZB defends herself eloquently. At one point she
	mentions that most of those who have attacked her would call those
	stories written by women "wimmins stories". A topic she goes on
	to rail against. I've always felt she comes across a little bit
	on the harsh side in her introductions and this one is sure to
	get her a slew of letters. I pretty much agree with what she says
	however. I too disagree that the solution to sexism is to bar
	men from women's places, the solution is to learn to live with
	each other not create a separate but (un)equal society. As such
	I enjoy books about men and women togther more than books about
	one sex or the other. liesl_a_fantasy_SF_junkie

The best '''feminist''' SF&F that I have read has to be Marion Zimmer Bradley's
Darkover books.  *Both* the male and female roles have strong characters in
many different situations; even the female householders strength is
appreciated.  In many ways MZB has shaped my ideas of "what should be". 

Most of the characters or groups that I identify with have psi abilities makes
the dream of having such a society in reality, unrealistic.  Yet, as I become
older, the less difference I think it makes in whether it is 'possible'. 

Many of the character have traits which are considered 'female' traits which I
wish more people of both sexes had.  Yet, the characters are definitely human
and have their failings and tantrums. 

Then there is Mists of Avalon....

I was floored when I read the story of how the Darkover books were written...

RE: .3

Samuel Delany, in my opinion, sucks!  Of the thirty odd people in MTUSF&F, we
all had a copy of SD's Dhalgren.  No one had ever managed to read more then a
fraction of it; everybody hated it and thought it was as boring as Canbe. We
kept threatening to have a Dhalgren bonfire, but could never be bothered to do
it; eve that would be probably be boring! 

RE: .9

Heinlien was also a great influence on me... especially "Stranger in a Strange
Land".  Pretty weird untill you think about it...  Although RAH's lead female
characters were competent, the background female characters had/did not (yet)
reach competence.  I think that that is just the place in social evolution that
RAH was writing from; at the time he started writing, all competent female
characters would be unthinkable.  But he did write a message that you (women)
could be competent if you tried.  I believe that this still holds true, both
for men and women.  Competence is not something to be taken for granted. I
think that a few years ago he started going senile. 

RE: .11

Zenna Henderson's ('The People' books if I am thinking of the right author),
stories were always surprisingly simple, elegant books.  Andre Norton goes
waay back to when I was a juvinile... :-)

RE: Joanna Russ.

I have one very strange book by her, 'we who are about to', or some such.
It falls under the Dhalgren category, but I don't have the same 'contempt'
for JR as I did for SD.  Perhaps I just didn't like it...

RE: .13

Being a feminist, or equality writer has to do with more then using as many
female pronouns as male pronouns.  I think that's a nit.

RE: books

I feel that books are priceless.  If you destory a book, that just means that
sooner or later, it (or something similiar) will be rewritten.  If feel that
it's much better to keep a book around and point out to people what trash it
is.  I don't burn trash books; they have a long and usefull life for them in my
house as insulation, and if I ever have a need for them, they are there.

What about the 'Ice/Snow Queen' story?  (Winter Queen & Summer Queen) Who wrote
that? 

RE: .35 stories

Those are great! :-)  Hilarious!

RE: .40

How is that 'feminist'???  Sounds pretty gross to me... (sorry to be cliche',
but that's my reaction...)

Jim.

    Gosh, I stop reading this file for awhile and come back to find a topic
    that I finally know something about.  A lot of good books/authors
    recommended.  I've got to check out some of them.  One author I haven't
    seen mentioned is James H. Schmitz.  He wrote several books with
    female protangonists.  I'm don't know if they are feminist or not.
    
    I've heard Heinlein described in as fascist but not feminist.

    The Gor books are really bad.  I have witnessed women buying and reading 
    them.  Strange.

    Mike

    re .53:
    
    Heinlein as FASCIST?
    
    I've heard him called many things, but never "fascist".
    Have you read him? I know you are just repeating what you've heard,
    but I think Heinlein is about as far from fascist as one can possibly
    get.
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

  Re: .54

  No, Heinlein has been called fascist over and over again (it happens
  every couple of months in SF-LOVERS DIGEST).  However, this is
  "newspeak," in which fascist means "someone with whom I disagree."  The
  definition of "fascism" includes "exaltation of nation and race above
  the individual" and you could argue that some of Heinlein's writings
  lean that way (I think that what he actually proposes is that it is a
  good thing when an individual puts the welfare of the nation or the race
  above his or her own -- which is not the same thing at all).  But the
  rest of the definition includes "strong autocratic or dictatorial
  control of government" and that is certainly not part of Heinlein's
  philosophy.

  JP  

    
    Ok....so I'm strange.
    
    I have almost the entire Gor saga....I love um!
    
    Trashy, I know they are....but still....
    
    I never said I had good taste!
    
    
    Ta sardar Gor,
    
    Becky