Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Alan, I'm not sure there's a definitive answer to your question.
    However, it's generally safe to treat women as people (just as one
    might treat _men_ as people). Not as cows at auction, not as objects
    of sexual intrigue, but as real people with real thoughts and real
    feelings. Other than that, it's hard to generalize (can you speak
    for _all_ men and how they like to be treated and how other people
    can know what they're feeling?)
    
    e

    RE: .1
    
    Liz, I wasn't trying to get a consensus from all women, as a class,
    to provide answers that were cast in concrete.
    
    What I was hoping for, was that each individual woman in this file
    might want to to share her *own* feelings around the issues of whether
    she preferred: to not be noticed at all *as a woman only*, an "eyes-
    on-me-only" woman, or an "eyes-on-me-and-approach" woman.
    
    I realize that most women (men) operate in somewhat different modes at 
    different times. But I think most women's (men's, too) basic
    personalities are such, that they can identify themselves as
    feeling more comfortable in one situation versus another.
    
      Alan                          

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Note xxx                  Is it really "no" or maybe?                
INK::DCARR                                           15 lines   5-JAN-1988 14:11
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    RE: .1 
    
    I agree that there is no clear cut answer to Alan's question.  It
    seems to me that the particular social/business situation would
    dictate behavior (at least on the surface).  As I re-read his note
    I can't help but wonder if he is looking for guidance/direction
    on how to avoid what appears to be a "come hither" flirtation when
    it's really a "come hither but no further" message.  As for myself,
    I prefer to be treated as a human being first without the implicit
    sexuality of being a woman...that can come later if it's of real
    interest to either of us.  Perhaps we are all victims of American
    culture where a flirtatious woman is considered a cocktease and
    a man who flirts is a rake.  In other parts of the world, flirtation
    ranks as a social art, an acceptable and necessary part of the
    etiquette between sexes.
    

    alan (and others),
    
    in case i wasn't clear enough yesterday, some women don't like to
    be leered at at all.
    
    liz

    my point of view is:  be my friend first.  If you like how I look,
    let me know.  If I like how you look, I'll let you know.  If you
    get too forward, I'll let you know.  If I get too forward, you'll
    let me know.  Start from friendship, that way if anyone takes too
    big a leap, it is something to return to in comfort.
    
    I think it's okay to compliment a friend, but "ogling" seems to
    indicate an appreciation of specifically sexual things...which would
    make me extremely nervous at this point.  Not to mention the fact
    that some men whistle/howl at unattractive women (as a joke) nearly
    as often as they whistle/howl at attractive women (to tell them
    that the men think they are a tasty tamale).  In the past, I have
    received both kinds, and sometimes find it hard to take a stranger's
    ogle in a positive manner (I'm sometimes not sure what they mean...)
    thus, I ignore them.  Sometimes I don't even FEEL like being
    ogled...makes me feel like a slab of sirloin at the meat market.
    
    I am a person first...and if a friend knows me and likes me and
    says so (even at the first steps of acquaintanceship) that often
    is a special thing to hear.  
    
    FWIW
    
    -Jody
    

    OK, I'll bite the bullet on this one...
    
    but, before I go any further, I want to clarify that I am speaking
    about a social setting ONLY, and I speak only for MYSELF.
    
    I like to have men look at me.  I am an average, attractive woman,
    not especially pretty, but I work at being the best that I can be
    in appearance.  If a man looks at me in manner that is not leering,
    or sexually demeaning, of course, I'm flattered.  Heck, it feels
    good to be noticed, does a great job for the ego, and sometimes,
    it make me feel even more attractive.  I AM a woman, I feel good
    about being a woman, and I am not offended if a man admires my looks.
    I look at men all the time, I like the way they look.  What can
    I say?  Maybe I've got more hormones than I should!  I don't feel
    that just because I man is looking at me, and he indicates that
    he likes what he sees, (maybe puts a smile on his face!) that he
    is in any way degrading me, my mind, my personality or women in
    general.  
    
    There certainly have been times, when I have dressed to encourage
    men to look at me.  I think I know what clothes enhance my face
    and figure and what men find attractive on me.  If for example,
    I'm going to a club/lounge, it wouldn't make much sense to me, not
    to dress attractively, not hooker style, but I am not ashamed to
    enhance my sensuality.  Not EVERY man is going to drool all over
    me, and I don't think I could handle all that attention (Ego woud
    go wild) but I would like to think that my appearance, my looks,
    also say something about my personality, and that some men would
    respond, and see me as an approachable person.  
    
    >The problems come when men are not sensitive to these various modes
    >(moods) under which a woman may be operating.
    
    >Is there any best way for a man to know?
    
    The best that I can suggest is fine tuning your body language reading
    skills.  If I saw a man looking at me, and he was smiling, and wasn't
    afraid to make eye contact, and I also liked the way he looked I'd
    give him a big smile back, and I think my eyes would indicate that
    I wouldn't mind him approaching in a polite friendly way. I might
    even approach him... 
    
    I have to say this:  If he looked like the Hunchback of Notre Dame,
    or exhibited any leacherous intentions, I'd probably turn my back,
    and ignore him.  My facial expressions are very easy to read, and
    I'm sure he would know that it wouldn't be wise to approach... 
                                                                   
    >...there are some women who are not happy with men noticing them
    >only *as women*.
    
    I'm sure you are right about this, and I don't know why that is,
    but again I speak for myself, outside of a work/business setting
    I feel good when I see a man notice me as a woman, maybe I'm over-
    confident, but I generally assume that an admiring glance is just
    that - nothing less - and except for a situation that I'm sure every
    woman has encountered, where a man perhaps make obscene gestures
    or remarks, (immuturity, and crude behavior, not worth the effort
    of responding to) I certainly hope that men will keep on looking...
                                                                       

    re .0 your question is a good one, Alan.  I have had many a fight
    with one ex- over this very point.
    
    When I was an adolescent, I enjoyed any male attention I could get.
    It seemed to me then to be a reflection of the fact that my body
    was no longer that of a little girl, and that not only was I growing
    up, but I was growing up SEXY (or so I thought...).
    
    So the leers made me wriggle with delight like a stupid little puppy
    (I don't like dogs...).
    
    Nowadays, I seem to rely much more strongly on my OWN perception
    of myself, which is for the most part pretty positive.  While adoration
    of my modest physical aspect is always welcome from a lover, the
    lack of it from anyone (including that hypothetical lover) simply
    makes me think they don't have eyes -- my inner- and outer- beauty
    seems pretty obvious to me, and if nobody else sees it, they are
    just blind.
    
    Sounds egotistical, but that's tough.  I like my bod, I like my
    brain, and I like my personality.  Once upon a time, that was not
    true, but somewhere along the road I got to really liking myself.
    
    The point of this?  Once I lost _that_ insecurity, admiring glances
    from men no longer made me feel good or attractive -- they made
    me feel threatened.  They felt like an invasion of my privacy when
    coming from acquaintances -- I have shared nothing with these
    individuals, and I don't particularly want to share my body (even
    in a passive, sexually visual way) with them either.
    
    If you want to "appreciate" _me_ anyway, do it when I am not looking,
    the same way _I_ do when I see a particularly striking stranger.
    "Look but don't touch" and letting me know you are looking is a
    way of touching, so don't.
    
    Lee

    RE:  637.6
    
    I couldn't have said it better! 
    
    RE:  637.7
    
    I don't feel that my being able to enjoy admiring glances from men
    is in anyway an indication of my insecurities-I was wondering why,
    since you've lost some insecurity, that such glances now make you
    feel threatened.  Maybe I missed something?
    
    Christine
    

    re .8: I was sorry to have my note follow .6 as I do not mean to imply
    that she and her feelings are in any way "adolescent". 
    
    I find glances threatening in many situations today because once
    some men who were "glancing" did more about it than I would like.
    Anyone repeating that behavior makes me feel they are threatening
    to do to me what _those_ men did.
    
    But the threat is only one aspect -- the invasion of privacy was
    what I felt before that incident, and that is by and large what
    I feel today when strangers watch me in a non-threatening but nevertheless
    sexual way.
    
    re Joe Jas --
    logic has little to do with feelings.  I _feel_ invaded, therefor
    it is something I don't like.  And your addiction comparison would
    be more appropriate if you picked a demonstrably dangerous substance
    such as alcohol.  Relying on others for my own self-worth was dangerous
    to my emotional well-being.  "even a little snack" would be as
    dangerous for me as "just a little drink".
    
    Lee

Good Point Lee!  Feelings don't have much to do with logic, and they *are* your
feelings!  But... Would it be nice to not have those feelings?

Alcohol is a much better comparison.

Jim. 

I am rescinding my request that only women respond to Note 637.

The only reason I made that request initially, was that I didn't want
women to feel they couldn't write freely there, without getting into
an endless series of arguments from some of the men.

Also, because the subject itself was directed toward women, I thought men
would have no real reason for responding to questions that only women
could answer.

Yet, I now see that having two separate notes may accomplish nothing
more than create additional confusion. It does seem to be getting
unwieldy.

Moderators, please write-lock Note 639, and if it's possible, could
you move whatever entries are there to this Note?

Thanks.

  Alan

    This note reminds me of something that happened to me earlier
    this winter.
    
    Last summer I bought a red wool shirt waist dress. I had had one
    just like it when I was a freshman in college and *loved* it. I
    got more compliments and attention in that dress than I ever had
    in my life before. (I didn't date hardly at all in highschool)
    After it wore out I looked to find another but was never able to.
    
    The new dress is the same color, but with long sleeves and a slim
    skirt - I fell in love with it when I tried it on! The first day
    that I wore it to work I *knew* I looked fantastic. I walked with
    better posture, and smiled at everyone. Everyone complimented me
    on my dress and the gentleman in the next office whistled at me!
    
    That evening I went to a meeting that was very rough on me emotionally
    and came through it still feeling fantastic because wearing the
    dress had given me such a lift.
    
    So Alan...look around for the women who aren't '10's' but who are
    just wearing something that they feel especially good in. You can
    tell by the way the walk that they feel especially great that day.
    and tell someone they look good!
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. not quite the same as what Alan is talking about - but I  do
    make a point of telling my office mates, male and female when they
    are looking especially good. I find that people perk up and smile
    and walk with a bit of a lift when I do.

    re .10
    Thanks Jim.  I would love not to feel that way, but as a survival
    reaction it has its uses.  I dislike reeking hostility when it happens,
    but it certainly beats the consequences.
   
    re .12
    Yes, the "ooooh _you_ look nice today" is welcome in the office.
    More than welcome, it's a wonderful reminder of how Nice life can
    be -- friendly people, friendly office.  But that comes from both
    men and women -- it _friendly_ not sexual.  When someone in the
    office says I look nice with that... ravenous... up and down, it
    has nothing to do with me or our friendship.
    
    Ever want to say "yes, nice to meet you, shall I turn around for
    you now?  This is _prime_ young meat boy"?

    Lee

    
    	Your right, Lee, feelings can be quite illogical. Relying on
    someone else's affirmation of your own self worth _is_ dangerous
    to someones emotional stability. I think you can even become addicted 
    to a feeling too, but I think it's a different kind of addiction
    than that of alcohol or chocolate.
    	I'm sorry to hear that your feelings changed by incident. Somehow,
    I'm sure mine would have changed as well.                             
    	
    	Joe Jas

    Well, just for the sake of argument (*I* might as well stir up 
    some trouble,too) I submit that the (il)logic of one's feelings
    is neither here nor there. That  we get most of our information
    about our surroundings *SUB*-consciously, and that if a woman feels
    threatened in a particular situation, there's an excellent chance
    that there is a threat somewhere around.
    
    --DE
    

    Here's something for the men reading this note.
    
    Some women state (not necessarily in this Conference) their enjoyment 
    of the "butt-watching" or "crotch-bulge-checking" of males.
    
    Do some men feel uncomfortable when they realize they're being..ah..
    sized-up by women, so to speak?
    
      Alan
    

    re .15, dawn       agreed.
    
    re .14, Joe Jas
    
    My feelings weren't exactly _changed_ by that incident; they were
    _reinforced_.  I am not about to go try and remove my protective
    impulses now because I know they are there for a very good purpose.
    Those reactions were there long before that incident.
    
    As long as there _is_ reasonable hazard to life&limb, I protect
    myself against it.  When the signs say there is a less than 1-in-20
    chance that this man (hypothetical man "admiring" me) is a rapist,
    then I loosen up.  In a general crowd, I'd say the chances of him
    being a bad guy are around 1-in-10-or-20 and that's too high.  At
    work, the chances are much much lower (unless he does something
    that triggers my "watch out for this creep" monitor).
    
    Lee

    Re .18, it depends on your frame of mind and who's doing the checking,
    huh??  Well, I'd say that's probably true for most women too.
    But, in general, unless the guy is a real dog, I like being looked
    at appreciatively by men.  It makes me feel good (even though I
    like myself anyway) to know that other people like something about
    me, too.  I tend to view oogling and flirting as harmless and fun.
     I don't expect every other man to be a rapist.
    
    Also, as women get older, they have to get ready to face the fact
    that someday nobody is going to want to look at them (unless it's
    a mate who still loves them for what's inside).  
    
    Lorna
    

    Uhm...no offense to anybody, but could we refrain from calling people
    "dogs"?
    
    Dawn_who's_been_barked_at_and_didn't_like_it
    

    I don't like being looked over, even appreciatingly, when
    
    		I'm interviewing for a job
    		I'm conducting a technical presentation
    		Asking for a raise
    	      	Walk down the hall    at work
    	And in these cases, I don't care who does the looking, I'm working
    	I'm not there for anyone else's amusement.
    
    I like it when I answer the door & see my honey who says, "Wow, you
    look nice".

    	Well, 3D::CHABOT, I'll take a "you look nice" compliment from
    	most ANYone!  However, there are some nights I go out with a 
    	friend when I just want to concentrate on conversation, and 
    	it's a little frustrating to have oglers hanging off the bar 
    	trying to get you to notice them noticing you.  Argh!
    
    	There are ALSO nights when I know I look hot, and appreciative
    	glances are absorbed with much delight.  (Of course, I'm often
    	with my SO at these times, so feel a little *safer* towards
    	avoiding potential advances!)
    
    						Carla
    

    
    When you get up at 04:30 and exercise just to feel good, it all
    comes together when a woman "Checks you out"!!
                                       
    
    Cal
    

    I'm going cross-eyed trying to keep track of the same note
    entered in two different conferences.  I know I answered somewhere
    (MENNOTES?) this same question, and had to go back and define
    "ogling" from my point of view, but don't see my answers here.
    
    I'm so confused!  This is what I get for noting all night.
    
    For the record, I do not go around checking bulges!  
                                  cj
    

    RE: .24
    
    Cindy, it was in HUMAN_RELATIONS that I cross-posted this note.
    And if you *really* want to get cross-eyed, there are some 
    additional replies to this (637) Note, in 639.
    
    Maybe I shouldn't ask, but I will, anyway. In your title what
    do the letters "fnoc hcihw" mean? 
    
      Alan

    re: "fnoc hcihw"
    try looking in a mirror >< rorrim a ni gnikool yrt
    
    liz >< zil

    re.25
    
    well, .26 has explained my title....
    
    Why would you post the same note all over the place like that.
    Granted, I can see getting a cross-section of opinions, but isn't
    that the purpose of HR?  I went looking for Carla's answer to
    help me out with my own answer, but we are in two different 
    conferences.  
    
    Again, I have been noting all night, and guess I need a break
    because I can't seem to make any sense of this method of yours.
    
                                          cj
    

    RE: .27
    
    cj, two Conferences is hardly "all over the place like that".
    
    And while the stated purpose of H_R is, ideally, to get a cross
    section of opinion from males and females, there *are* people
    who participate only in Womannotes but not H_R, and vice-versa. 
    
    Sorry if you got confused.
    
      Alan

    I find notes like this very amusing.  I have never walked in a room
    or been in a situation where someone I do not know has admired my
    appearance.
    
    I use to feel bad about it...but I have come to realize that the
    moments of pleasure around receiving attention for physical appearance
    are so tiny in the whole scope of my life that it isn't worth the
    energy.
    
    And I feel I have the advantage...because when I do receive attention
    I feel comfortable that it is for something I have said or done
    that impressed.  It may take a little longer to get that attention
    but the good feeling lasts.

    re: .27 (cj)
    
    	You were looking for MEEEEEE???  My last reply was .22...I 
    	also just replied with living, breathing detail in H_R.  I 
    	too have found it a little difficult to keep track when a 
    	note is simultaneously posted, but can understand the dual
    	posting.
    
    	My feeling is that I like to be noticed if I don't feel any
    	incoming pressure to notice that I'm being noticed.  That's
    	probably because if I'm noticing a man, I don't particularly
    	want him to notice that I'm looking at him.
    
    	Subtle observation is an art.
        
    						Carla
    

    re:.13
    > Ever want to say "yes, nice to meet you ...  _prime_ young boy
      ....
    
    Yes, I have no problem being admired physically by women. When I
    used to cycle and took my bike on the PATH train, I'd get a few
    lingering glances. It made me feel attractive. It was particularly
    nice to know I was still attractive because my girlfriend had just
    broken up with me, and I was feeling really down.
    
    Perhaps I feel more secure in this because, as a guy, I have never
    had to face being treated as a sex-object where it counts (at work,
    at school, etc). On those occasions where my mind was being judged,
    I was never under the impression that of being ogled.
    
    dov

    While I'm pretty sure I don't want to be "a sex object" (with
    the implied "to most/all women", I'm also fairly certain that
    I'd be depressed if I thought I wasn't at least *one* person's
    sex object (preferably of the woman who also holds me as her
    "love object".)
    
    Steve (maybe half-serious here)
    

    re .31 in re my .13
    
    Ooops, miscommunication.  I was referring to female_meets_man_in_
    _business_setting_and_he_is_leering_.  My mental response is the
    fantasy of spinning around with a nasty grin and saying something
    like "this is _prime_ meat, and you will _never_ get your hands
    on it so eat your heart out, you fart."
    
    Nasty but what the heck, it replaces fury with ridiculousness.
    
    Lee

    re: .33
    
    Oh yas!!  I love it, Lee.
    
    Steve (who's always had a soft spot for nasties-spoken-with-that-
    "just-so"-nasty-grin); I almost regret that I'll most likely
    never get to use that line.
    

    Sometimes....it happens....
    
    I woke up this morning...and really wanted to dress "flatteringly".
    Not "fancy", not "power-suit-executively", not "femininely and
    fluttery", but (what I hope is) "flatteringly".
    
    I rummaged through the closet and took out something I hadn't worn in
    aeons.  A fairly clingy turtleneck. The rest of the outfit was no
    different from what I usually wear, but there is a difference...today
    I'll *feel* pretty (& special), even if I don't get "noticed".  I think
    that whatever the response from the rest of the world, you should be
    happy with how you look. 

    Like many people, I fluctuate from feeling attractive to feeling
    downright ugly (kind of like Chameleon, from the Xanth books...although
    my intellectual abilities depend mostly on how awake I am, not how
    pretty I am).... 
    
    -Jody    

    I am always flattered if/when anyone comments favorably on my 
    appearance, but it is usually reciprocal. As far as "having eyes
    on " someone .... I understand how prevalent it is for men to eye
    females sexually, it is sad knowing such superficiality exists.
    But our culture has done little to suppress that. If someone of
    the opposite sex "eyes" me, I likely won't even be aware of it,
    but if I engage in pleasant conversation with someone - then my
    appreciation for making visible contact becomes manifest.
    
    As far as MY eyes are concerned - I confess to being as guilty as
    most males (in my past), having viewed females with a certain 
    element of "lust". Thankfully, I have evolved from that stage. My
    eyes can still be drawn toward the fairer sex (being single and
    all) but I don't retain that element of lust, only appreciation.
    As a rule, I am primarily interested in what's inside, not external
    appeal - even though I might be initially drawn to one's appearance.
    The visual imagery adhered to in this society is a travesty, more
    meaningful human relations would be established if we came to know
    each other nonvisually first.
                                     Marvin

RE: .15

"That we get most of our information about our surroundings *SUB*-consciously,
and that if a woman feels threatened in a particular situation, there's an
excellent chance that there is a threat somewhere around."

I can't buy that at all.  Most of our subconcious mind is stuffed with all kinds
of shit from our past.  If *one* item in the present situation is *similiar* to
a situation in the past, bells and whistles go off. 

Mostly what we are reacting to is our *past* experience.  It may be related
to the way humans learn (hear that AI people, put that in a computer!).

It is important to be able to realize that this is what is happening, and
conciously survey the *present* situation, and *conciously* decide whether or
not there is a present threat to us, and to be *able* to disengage our reactions
to the past from the present.  

I would hazard a guess that nine times out of ten that my subconcious sounds the
alert, it is needless.  It is necessary to have that alert, but it is also
necessary to be able to turn it off. 

RE: .35

Do you mind if I tell you that you look !nice!?

Jim.

 

    re:.38
    Why be surprised?  Isn't it exactly what you'd expect?  there ought
    to be a phrase for this kind of commentary (.37, that is).