Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    The reading I've done on the subject describes bulemia and anorexia
    as happening to woman who are rejecting the acceptance of their
    womanhood.  The individual does not want to be intimate with
    a man at a particular point in her life.  Rather than face being 
    in a physical relationship, they are kept 'safe' by remaining
    skinny and virtually *UNATTRACTIVE* to men.  This made sense to
    me at the time, considering how many young women this happens to.
    
    I had a girlfriend who was anorexic and it happened at a time when
    she was engaged to a person she did not end up marrying.  For her,
    there was a definite pay-off in that the guy eventually went away.
    She also was pretty self-absorbed in this time, which also gave
    the guy signals about how she was going to behave if they should
    tie the knot.  She ended up marrying someone else about 10 years
    later, once she was better able to handle a physical relationship.
    
    Just some thoughts on the matter and I'm interested in other's thoughts
    and ideas....Regards, Christy

    I don't know very much about those diseases either, but I had a friend
    who was anorexic.  I don't think she was trying to make herself
    unnattractive, but the opposite.  This was in the days when Twiggy was
    popular, and there was a lot of pressure on girls to be thin and look
    good.  The problem (I think) was that she had a low self esteem which
    distorted her perception of herself.  She thought she looked fat even
    though she only weighed ninety pounds.  She also contemplated suicide
    at that time, and appealed to the minister of my church for help.  I
    think that the acceptance she got from the church helped her self-esteem,
    and she even gained weight (but she's still thin).

    Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that Anorexia and Bolemia
    can be caused by a poor self-image as well as the pressure that society
    puts on women  (fat men are ok, fat women aren't).  And off the topic,
    my friend went to Oral Roberts' college and got kicked out because she
    caught pnemunia  (it must be some sin in you that caused your sickness!!).

    ...Karen

    
    
    		There could be other reasons for Anorexia.  For instance,
    a long time ago (to me) When I was in grade school I choked on
    something.  After that, for almost a whole summer I wouldn't eat.
    I wouldn't even swallow my own spit.  I ended up inthe hospital
    and then finally My parents took me to a hypnotist, and he convinced
    me (via hypnosis) that I was OK, and that I could eat without worry.
    So now I'm 6' and 175 pounds, fairly healthy!  Although, I'll admit
    that I STILL dislike eating, unless I'm alone and/or have something
    else on my mind.  Drinking and soft liquidy foods I can handle without
    even thinking about it, sometimes meat bothers me.  It's weird.
     I KNOW I'll be OK, but it still lingers in my mind...
    
    	Mike

    I don't know much about the diseases either but I remember when
    I was fifteen and was in the dating scene.  I was too nervous to
    eat anything because I was afraid I throw up!  So to avoid throwing
    up I stopped eating.  I mean I ate with my parents and my friends
    but I would never eat around a date.....strange huh?  I just was
    too nervous and felt I guess alot of pressure.  I weighed about
    105 pounds all through high school and I was 5'7.  I'm still 5'7
    but I weigh 125 pounds now.....yeah food caught up to me finally.
    I guess being scared of "will he like me" "what should I do" "how
    should I act" was too much on my mind.....I would definitely agree
    teenagers are under alot of pressure and that's probably why they
    don't eat - either they feel they are "too fat" when they are not
    or just being nervous about a situation.....
    
    bs
    

    American Health Magazine (July or August 86) used eating 
    disorders as the feature of the month.  They did it justice and
    devoted many pages to explanations of why this occurs, when it
    occurs and how to cope with it.  It was enlightening and very 
    worthwhile reading.
    
    

A big element of these eating disorders is control.  The women suffering
 from these disorders usually don't have sufficient control of their
  lives.

The disorders allow these women to control their bodies to the desired
 (as defined by society) thinness.

Also, when body fat is reduced to a certain level, attendant hormones
 are also reduced, and menstruation stops.  This is another thing that
  the sufferer can now control.
   <_Jym_>

    One of my cousins, who is a year older than I am, is anorexic, but
    I haven't discussed it with her (in fact, I haven't seen her in
    a very long time, since she lives in California and I live in
    Massachusetts).  She also runs a lot (not marathons, but fairly
    long distances).  I believe that she is in counseling now.
    
    /Charlotte

    I found the comment 'fat men are OK but fat women are not" very
    interesting. I'm in a non-verbal comm class. Our study of how body
    types affect others perceptions showed that men *like* average to
    slightly plump women BETTER than thin ones! The desire to be thin
    which our culture pushes actually runs contrary to what people really
    like. There was another idea/theory that women dress for the reaction
    of other women more than for men. Food for thought, if you'll pardon
    the pun. :-) Liesl 

>				    showed that men *like* average to
>    slightly plump women BETTER than thin ones! 

That may well be true, but why do the advertising people keep pushing the
image of thin-is-beautiful?  They spend all that money figuring out what we
"want" so they can sell stuff.  It'd be nice to find that they're wrong!


>	  There was another idea/theory that women dress for the reaction
>    of other women more than for men. 

That may be because men don't react much to women's dress (not seriously,
anyway).
					-- hs

I'm sure I have an eating disorder, of sorts.  Not life threatening, I 
think, and mostly under control.  I only have to contend with cellulite 
in the lower quadrants.  My cholesterol levels are OK.  

One of my favorite buttons carries the slogan "Eat to Forget".  I'm not 
sure what it means, but I like it.  

At 17 (or was it 16?), I idolized Twiggy's knobby knees.  When I was 18 
and working at my first full-time job as a file clerk in a collection law 
firm, a co-worker of mine -- a skeletally thin, "far-out" young woman from 
Califonia named Zoe, who drove a souped up chrome-yellow VW Beetle with a 
great stereo system -- left work one day to go to the hospital and never 
came back.  She was rumored to have starved herself to death.  

Throughout most of her adult life, my mother weighed 97 pounds -- this 
shot up to a horrifying 120 lbs. when pregnant.  Of course, this was due 
to the fact that she had an extremely small opening from the stomach to 
the small intestine, of which she was not aware till she had to have most 
of her stomach removed.  (Well, she is a small-boned woman, under 5 feet 
tall.)  I was thin till I left home at 18 and discovered Kraft macaroni 
and cheese (the jumbo size, with the can of processed cheese sauce).  

I almost never eat because I'm hungry.  Eating is most satisfactory when
I feel the need for instant gratification -- usually if I'm bored or 
depressed.  I've noticed that anxiety kills my appetite, so every crisis 
carries a hidden blessing, a bonus of -5.  Illness, too, carries this
"blessing".  The last time I drank too much at a party, I remember 
thinking after vomiting, 'Oh, good.  I enjoyed eating it and now I don't
have to pay for the calories.'  

I'm on a diet.

CQ

    Is the concensus that the bias toward women in eating disorders
    a cultural or biological phenomena?
    

    I always figured that it was a cultural thing, but I don't think
    anyone really knows for sure.  As I intimated in my earlier reply,
    it's not the sort of thing I would ask my cousin, or anyone else
    burdened with such a problem.
    
    /Charlotte

{RE .11} - Cultural, since the incidence of these disorders has not
 remained steady through time or across cultures.
  <_Jym_>

    Well in reply to an earlier note (why all the skinny models), I'll come
    out of the closet. I find plump women infinitely more attractive than
    "skinny" women, and I find plump men, well let's just say
    "unattractive". I've never understood why our culture prizes the
    "emaciated" look, and why "Reubenesque" is supposed to be a polite
    euphemism for "fat". I *like* Reubens' women. I *like* Renoir's
    women. In fact, I have a postcard of Renoir's "Odalisque" that I
    keep around for inspiration.
    
    More seriously though, I have two things to recommend. One, if you
    think you are overweight, and can't seem to do anything about it,
    is the book "Diets Don't Work". The second, if you are plump, is
    a magazine called "Big Beautiful Woman", no skinny models here!
    
    	-- Charles

Other books which address the topic are Fat is a Feminist Issue (Susie 
Orbach) and Such a Pretty Face, don't remember the author.  Such a Pretty 
Face is especially interesting because it addresses a lot of the issues 
around cultural negation of fat people, especially women.

    Read "Starving for Attention" by Cherry Boone O'Neill (daughter
    of Pat Boone).  It's a wonderfully honest book about someone who
    suffered from both bulemia and anorexia and lived to tell about
    it and counsel others.  It's out in paperback.  She got married
    in the middle of her 7 years (or so) with the disease and her therapy
    involved her husband totally.  I've read this book several times
    and think it and the author are wonderful.
    
    SHL
    

    
    Re .8, gee, I've been naturally thin all my life.  Maybe I should
    stuff myself and get fat and I'd have better luck with men.
    
    Lorna
    

    I suffered mildly from bulemia while in college and shortly afterward.
    It is definitely an unpleasant experience to dislike one's self
    so much that the only cycle you can see is to eat to give yourself
    some gratification and then to starve or purge in retaliatory self
    hatred so that others might like you. 
    
    When binging, I would hate myself for my weakness, for giving in to the
    urge to eat to try to satisfy some part of myself, some part over which
    I *did* have some control.  Then I would starve for several days, to
    try to keep anyone else from knowing what I did, hating myself then,
    too, for not having enough self respect be myself.
    
    My self image was so dependent on the opinion of others that I became
    driven to be liked, but didn't believe it when someone liked me!
    Then I would enter the cycle again: binge, starve, hate myself.
    
    I have trouble pinpointing exactly what broke the cycle--but slowly
    I began to appreciate myself and to realize that people weren't
    lying when they said they like me. Slowly, I got out of the behavior
    patterns which had been so self-reinforcing.
    
    However, I still fight against these feelings. When I'm depressed,
    the first thing I want to do is eat. (I am trying to train this
    out by going shopping instead, but I'm not sure eating isn't a better
    alternative ;-). You should see some of my credit card balances.)
    I still find eating to be a very satisfying thing to do, but now
    I try to do it because I *enjoy* it, not because I hate myself.
    
    A very good book to read on the subject is _The_Obsession_ by Kim
    Chernin, sub-titled _Reflections_on_the_Tyranny_of_Slenderness_.
    This book might be considered by some to be a radical feminist's
    view of why society forces women into slenderness. It sheds some
    very interesting insights into the nature of food and eating and
    being female.

    Tamzen
    

        I've had trouble with overeating since I was about 10.  It seems
    to me to be the flip side of the anorexia/bulemia illness.  It has
    to have some connection with being female judging from the people
    who are troubled by the problem.  Go to any Overeaters Anonymous
    meeting, and you'll find a large circle of women with an occasional
    man.  That's not to say that there aren't a lot of fat men, but
    men are not called upon to obsess about their weight the way that
    women are.
    
    For example:  Any supermarket checkout line has at least 3 magazines
    aimed at women.  Most of these magazines carry a double message.
    The cover has pictures of rich, fattening foods and at least one
    title of the "lose up to 25 pounds in 10 days" type.  All the ads
    have borderline anorexics in them, whether they advertise clothing,
    perfume, or laundry detergent.  Magazines aimed at men tend to stress
    prestige (whether monetary, sexual, or atheletic.)  The men are
    usually of meduim build (as opposed to fat), and only rarely are they 
    obviously gaunt.  The men's magazines are also not for sale at 
    supermarket checkout stands.

    So what's the point?  The point is that it is considered appropriate
    for women to spend large amounts of their time and effort on conforming
    to an elusive standard of "beauty" and that to fail to achieve that
    standard is to be a Failure.  
    
    To me, the most important part of the women's movement has to do 
    with the freedom to figure out what it means to "be yourself", and 
    to be it, tall, short, fat, skinny, ambitious, career-oriented, 
    family-oriented, spiritual, areligious, ridiculous, serious, or an
    ever-changing combination.  In short, what I want from life is 
    the right to be human, and to have my humanity recognized as my 
    most important attribute.
    
    I'll get off the soap-box now, but thanks for listening.
    
    Joanne

Oh, I happened upon something that disturbed me yesterday.  On this
very topic.  

I happened to pick up a couple of children's behavior books, some
titled Me and My New Mom, Why Can't I, and one called Don't Call Me
Fatso.

An 8 year old who likes peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, chocolate
milk, and cookies for lunch who has a weight problem has become the
butt of some cruel boys' jokes at school.  She goes home and tells her
father about it and he says "Well, we could BOTH stand to lose some
weight..." and then, of course, Mommo joins in and they're one big,
happy, dieting family.

After a failure at jumping off the diving board at school, she submits
to the temptation of 3 candy bars, but then climbs right back on the wagon.

Weighed at school next, she's lost 5 pounds....

Now, on the surface, I thought," Not a bad book.  Deals with a reality
of life, shows the kid suffering a failure, but she succeeds.  It's
positive and upbeat..."

And then my friend says, "Yeah, but the message is STILL that everyone
has to be thin to be liked!"

She went on to say that the solution wasn't to accept being fat, but to
change herself....

Suddenly, I felt this overwhelming feeling of sadness that we;re STILL
teaching our kids that to be happy, you must be thin....

*sigh*  I'm not thin, never have been, never will be, and I'm one
contented Bugsy...

{RE .20} - From the sound of the child's diet, I wonder if the message is "be
 thin" or "eat right?"  If the book just talked about losing weight, that's
  unfortunate.  If the book talked about being healthy, that's better.

It does sound like the book is saying "fat is unpopular," which isn't good.
 It would be best if the book had the child losing weight because she wanted
  to - perhaps because she wants to swim better.  Or would that be (*gasp!*)
   promoting "secular humanism?" :-)
    <_Jym_>

    
    
    Excuse me if I am out of sync, repetitive, or just all wet but I
    haven't read this entire note.  I do have something to say on the
    topic of being overweight and eating disorders.  I haven't thought
    alot about what I'm going to say but will just speak what's in my
    heart.
    
    I have always been fat.  I don't think I would call myself fat right
    now but do have some extra weight (more than 10 lbs.).  In the last
    1 1/2 year, I have lost 120+ pounds, having weighed about 250 at
    my top weight.  
    
    Fat people in this society are very much discriminated against,
    particularly females.  I have on several occasions asked people
    of non-white ethnic races (blacks, Mexicans, orientals) if they
    felt they were discriminated against more for being non-white, fat,
    or female (if they were female, of course).  The majority response
    was they were descriminated against more often for being fat.
    
    Females are especially vulnerable because it is their "role" to
    prepare food & generally be more concerned with the nourishment
    of the family.  Therefore, they are around food more often & have
    more opportunity for temptation.  Unfortunately, they gain weight
    easier than most men (more body fat).  But on the other hand, they
    must look slim (along w/ a whole host of other musts) to be attractive
    and they are judged more on appearance than a man. Fat Is A Feminist
    Issue is a very good book to read.
    
    
    This society has created an almost universal acceptance of making
    fun of fat people.  Jokes, comments, etc. on being fat are more
    acceptable than "polish" jokes.  But at the same time, the message
    is eat but don't get fat.  Enter bulimia, the "ideal" solution.
    
      
    I went thru several periods of bulimia & felt like I was a wino
    lying in the gutter.  That was the bottom of the barrel for me.
    I'm not sure why but one thing I remembering thinking at that point
    was that everyone in the world could handle food so why couldn't
    I handle such a simple thing as food.
    
    Even though I am much lighter & have established better eating/exercise
    habits I still have a struggle.  I'll never arrest my eating disorder
    because it doesn't depend on how much I weigh.
    handle
    

    
    
    re: -1
    
    I have been able to control my weight most of my life.  I love to
    eat and have at times had stomach problems and could not eat.  So
    I value the fact that today I can eat pizza and fried foods - but
    not all the time.  I hope that I never have to pay close attention
    to the food or the amount that I eat ever again.  This is all to
    say that I am in awe of anyone who can do it without having the
    pain to remind them to watch what they eat.
    
    _peggy
    

    A friend mailed me the following reviews from the USENET. I thought
    they were worth posting here.
    
    
Newsgroups: soc.women,rec.arts.books
Subject: Bibliography on Eating Disorders/Weight Issues
Message-ID: <16838@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 13 Jan 87 12:20:07 GMT
Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Controls Wizard)
Distribution: net
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 98
Xref: lpi soc.women:1601 rec.arts.books:103


I've cited many of these in my postings but I thought it might be
useful to put them all together in one list.

Orbach, Fat is a Feminist Issue
        Fat is a Feminist Issue, Vol II

		The first is the classic work on the subject.  I found
reading it really revolutionized my thinking.  The second is a workbook
to help you put some of her ideas into action.

Chernin, The Obsession
	 The Hungry Self

		The first of these is better written.  It has an
excellent chapter on health issues.  She also discusses anorexia and
bulimia.

Roth, Feeding the Hungry Heart
      Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating

		Anyone who has ever ordered a large pizza with 3 cokes
so "the delivery boy won't know I'm eating it myself" will appreciate
the first of these.  The second is more methodological but still fairly
anecdotal.  These are also highly recommended for people who don't suffer
from eating disorders but are trying to understand the experience of
compulsive eating.  There's a wonderful mixture of pain and humor (how to
overeat sneakily is a favorite anecdotal subject and one close to my heart.
All of the roommates who saw me eating broiled fish and veggies for dinner
and didn't understand that it was the Pepperidge Farm Mint Milano cookies
I ate in my bedroom with the door closed and locked that were making me
stay fat should have read this the first of these two.)

Bruch, The Golden Cage
 
		This is the classic work on anorexia.  It is somewhat outdated
but still interesting.  If you read it, I suggest reading Chernin's
books to put it into perspective.

Atwood, Lady Oracle
        The Edible Woman

		Nobody writes woman oriented fiction as well as Ms. Atwood.
These are highly recommended even without their eating disorder specific
content.  Every woman who was fat as a child/adolescent will relate to
Joan in Lady Oracle.  The Edible Woman is symbolically involved with
anorexia.  In both novels the events turn bizarre.  These books should be
very easy to obtain now that Atwood's latest (The Handmaid's Tale) is 
a big (and well earned) success.

(author unknown), Diets Don't Work

		This workbook is somewhat annoying in tone but is still
fairly useful.   (My objections were to writing style, not really to
content).  This is also the only book on the list that is  not
primarily woman oriented.

Baker, The Beauty Trap

		This book was written when Nancy Baker realized that she was
obsessed with her appearance, not with what she had to say, while
appearing on talk shows to promite earlier books.  The chapter on
history is frightening.  As you might guess from the title, the subject
is more general than weight issues but they are considered.

Millman (not sure if author's name is correct), Such a Pretty Face

		This is another book describing the problem not the
solution.  Several approaches to weight management (or lack thereof)
are discussed - including Overeater's Anonymous, summer camps for fat
teenagers and NAAFA.   An excellent overview of what the experience of
fat women in America is like and what's wrong with the proposed solutions.
The photographs are particularly good.

Small, "A Song for the Roly Poly People"

		This song is on her album "Mothers,Daughters,Wives".  It
includes such lines as "Weight Watchers is owned by Heinz."

(author unknown), Making it Big

		Primarily a beauty manual for fat women but also has
chapters on practical issues (sexual positions, furniture, etc.)

Big Beautiful Woman 

		This is a fashion magazine for women who wear size 16 
or over.  If you think fat women can't be attractive, this magazine
will show you how wrong you are.

Schwartz, Never Satisfied: A History of Dieting
		
		Mr. Schwartz is a dancer who got interested in the
obsession dancers have with dieting.  I haven't read his book yet but it
sounds interesting.

I would welcome any additions/corrections to this list.
Miriam Nadel

    
From: moiram@tekgen.UUCP (Moira Mallison )
Newsgroups: soc.women,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Bibliography on Eating Disorders/Weight Issues
Message-ID: <737@tekgen.UUCP>
Date: 14 Jan 87 20:05:26 GMT
References: <16838@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Reply-To: moiram@tekgen.UUCP (Moira Mallison )
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 32
Xref: lpi soc.women:1633 rec.arts.books:116

In article <16838@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Controls Wizard) writes:
>(author unknown), Diets Don't Work
>
>		This workbook is somewhat annoying in tone but is still
>fairly useful.   (My objections were to writing style, not really to
>content).  This is also the only book on the list that is  not
>primarily woman oriented.

The author's name is Bob Schwartz.  I also participated in seminars
(no longer offered).   Application of these methods have moved me
a long way toward letting go of my excess weight, and even further
toward self-acceptance.


Bryan, Nancy	Thin Is A State of Mind

Talks about stress and the role it plays in compulsive overeating.
Learning to relax is of primary importance in any weight release
program.


Wardell, Judy	Thin Within

Another workbook, not unlike Diets Don't Work.    Not surprising,
since Schwartz and Wardell have similar roots in the human 
potential movement  in the Bay Area.   The suggested structure
is to read (and apply) a chapter/day for 30 days.  I read it
all in one day last summer when I was sick, and mostly to get
somebody off my back  :-) about it.  


moiram