Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    From my own experience (as a recipient!), my most favorite toys
    were usually not traditionally sex-typed. That is, I didn't like
    dolls much - didn't like baby dolls at all - and only enjoyed Barbie
    and co. for all the neat little gadgets that were available. My
    favorite toys were blocks, cowboys and indians (complete with "Dodge
    City" to have gunfights in), a set of plastic dinosaurs (complete
    with prehistoric terrain), books, and stuffed animals. You ought
    to be able to give things like that without upsetting anybody too
    much.
    
    You can certainly give him toy trucks, too, but if you have a female
    child to provide presents for, don't rule them out for her. I coveted
    those Tonka earth-movers when I was a kid, and I would have adored
    "transformers" et al.
    
    And of course as the child grows, you can write to him and find
    out what he likes best...

    -b

    nail painting is not a uniquely feminine thing to do.  my sons 
    have painted their toe nails on many occasions, usually with bright
    colored paints.  Like a background of green and then take toothpicks
    and put dots of red and yellow.  toenails then look like the backs
    of various bugs.  they also enjoy painting the backs of real bugs
    as they are painting their toenails.  nail polish is not very durable,
    but it is probably safer than using regular enamel, and the colors
    are much brighter and more varied.

        I had a really active imagination as a kid (and, by all
        accounts, I'm still a kid---just a bit more inhibited about
        showing it in public).  I loved dolls.  Of course, I had
        boy-oriented dolls, primarily G.I.Joes (long before they shrank
        'em). I played with a girlfriend once, and found that Barbie
        dolls were the right size for G.I.Joes... I bought my own Barbie
        dolls (I was older at this point than I would care to admit!) to
        team up with the Joes as superheros and such. When I got too old
        to feel comfortable running around in the woods with flying
        dolls, I turned my imagination to writing stories instead of
        expressing it physically... but sometimes I still wish I could
        relive some of that.  In fact when my mother recently cleaned
        out their attic and gave me a box of old G.I.Joe stuff, I had
        a strong impulse to go out and buy a Barbie (I think I disposed
        of them out of growing embarrassment as I got older... in
        any case, none seem to have survived).
        
        Toys are basically what you make of them, and I don't think
        there's any toy you can really say is inappropriate for either
        boys or girls.  What it depends on is the child's interests;
        and, of course, the tolerance of the parents and society.
        I really can't see any more harm in giving toy cosmetics
        to a boy than in giving them to a girl... but a boy older
        than a year or two is certain to know they're "for girls",
        and in any case the parents and friends are unlikely to think
        much of the idea... and for a boy to become comfortable with
        use of makeup would not be to his advantage in this society
        (unless, of course, he goes into politics or theatre).
        
        Toy trucks and cars (I also lost an enormous collection of match
        box and hot wheels cars somewhere along the line... <sigh>),
        stuffed animals (I *didn't* ever give up any of my stuffed
        animals, and we still buy them for ourselves), and books
        (getting a small child interested in reading at an early age is
        probably about the *best* thing you can do for her/him!) are
        usually pretty "safe" for most any kid.
        
        	/dave
        

	My niece likes to use makeup, and I worried that she was being
	brought up in all the sexist modes. But she *likes* it.  Then I
	realized that both my parents wear makeup.  They're clowns for
	a charitable organization.  So why not give both boys and girls
	plenty of makeup (they do have makeup that washes off with water),
	and let the kids' imagination go to work.

	The only really sexist item that I would not give to a boy are
	dresses, and that's really sad.  Think of the joy they miss not
	to be allowed to wear a skirt that twirls and rustles around your
	legs.  I'm just too intimidated to defy convention in that area,
	but I can't deprive girls from wearing dresses because of that.
	Although, personally, I don't like to wear them very much, I do
	know that a lot of girls (and women) like to.

	...Karen

    I think that nail polish and make-up is a silly idea for girls,
    let alone boys.
    
    But my kid sense tells me that whatever the kids like and have
    fun with is okay.
    
    My grown-up sense tells me that until men are expected to wear make-up
    and paint their nails as a routine thing, women shouldn't be expected
    to either. (For special occasions though, I do wear make-up.)
    
    (I know this is slightly off the topic.)
    
	-Ellen G

    When my 14 year old son was 3 or 4 he loved dressups and would
    choses women's stuff just as quickly as men's. It never bothered
    me - tho one of his day-care teachers gota little bent out of shape
    over it (told me he was confused over his sexual identity! HORSE
    FEATHERS).
    
    The kid is a natural born actor and still puts on one man shows for
    us from time to time tho he no longer plays female roles in costume.
    (Tho now that I think of it - a couple of years ago he got all dolled
    up and came and knocked at my back door and gave me about 15 minutes
    of a totally batty, rather snobby lady who had come to call. I ended
    up in hysterics on the floor. )
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that dresses are ok for boys too.
    Bonnie
    

    
    Well, I have to admit that I still love dolls.  When I was a kid
    I played trucks with my brother and cowboys and indians.  But, my
    favorites were dolls, stuffed animals and books.  AND, I love jewelry
    and clothes with no assistance from anybody.  I'd probably love
    them if I were a man.  I don't see why a woman can't love beautiful
    clothes, jewelry, and wear makeup and still believe in what feminism
    stands for.  I've always considered the clothes, jewelry, makeup,
    dolls, and the color pink to be the *best* part of being female
    even in a sexist society.  That's something I've never had any gripe
    with.  I just don't want to cook your supper or wash your clothes.
     But, I'd walk around dressed like a Victorian lady if I could get
    away with it!
    
    When I first found out I was pregnant (13 yrs ago) I thought, "Oh,
    I want a girl so I can buy lacy pink dresses and dolls and name
    her something really feminine."  Happily, I got my chance and I
    enjoyed it.  I just can't get excited about trucks.  But, I would
    buy a child any toy they really wanted except for toy guns.  I hate
    guns with a passion and any kid of mine who wanted one would have
    to wait and do it with their own money in their own home - hopefully
    by then they would have changed their mind.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is, if a girl wants trucks and jeans, fine,
    and if a boy wants dolls and nail polish, fine, but if a girl really
    *wants* dolls, dresses and makeup, let her enjoy it.  Being feminine
    is only bad when it's forced on someone who would rather be climbing
    trees.
    
    Finally, I agree, books and stuffed animals are good gifts for other
    people's kids.  They shouldn't offend anybody.
    
    Lorna
    

    (The "Victorian" comment reminded me of this...)
    
    I've never liked dresses, and haven't worn them for years. But one
    of the more enjoyable times I've had recently was at a full-dress
    Victorian "mystery weekend", where 25 of us ran around for 2 1/2
    days in formal Victorian attire.
    
    What does this have to do with kids and toys? Well - it occurred to me
    that if you look at clothing (makeup, jewelry, etc.) as costumes, then
    anything goes. As has been mentioned, kids can have a great time being
    amateur actors, clowns, and so forth, and if they learn that all the
    to-do about fashion really comes down to "what costume will you wear
    today", it might prevent a lot of the hassle over what to wear later
    on. (Well, so maybe it won't, but it's worth a try. If Mom had
    explained the dress-wearing requirements as "they want you to role-play
    'The Traditional Schoolgirl'"  rather than "Just do it!", it might have
    been easier for me to take!) 

    (sigh) - another digression. Back to toys 'n' gifts. I don't think it's
    been mentioned yet, but how about writing supplies? Big yellow notepads
    all their very own for the younger set, journals for older kids (not
    the little three-line-a-day diaries, but nice roomy journals - some of
    them come beautifully illustrated, and there's no restriction on how
    much or how little to write), colored pens, pencils, and/or crayons for
    a variety of ages, coloring books (I've seen lots of good ones, from
    the "historical figure" variety to the "draw your own picture" kind),
    calligraphy felt-tips to play with...

    -b

    I was an only child, and although I enjoyed dolls and stuffed animals
    and similar things as props for imaginary play with other children,
    I didn't like that stuff at all for the times I had to amuse myself
    on my own.  My parents quickly caught on to the fact that toys that
    "did" something or provided a challenge kept me quiet and busy much,
    much longer.
    
    My favorite toy was a set of Lionel trains.  I had a big layout
    in the cellar and amused myself for hours and building and painting
    buildings, making trestles, derailing the trains onto the floor,
    giving my kittens rides on the trains, and making up stories about
    the people and the buildings.  
    
    Art supplies were a close second.  Paints, tinker toys, popsicle
    stick building kits, mosaic tile kits, paint by numbers sets, and
    related crafts were great.
    
    I liked games, too, but they usually required a second person.
    
    I loved knitting and crocheting.  I taught a few of the boys in
    my neighborhood how to knit and crochet and they made "fishnets"
    and lariats...
                  
    I remember one traditional girl-type toy, the "Dream Kitchen". 
    My fascination with it came much more from the fact that you could
    fill a water reservoir in the back of the sink and make real water
    come out of the faucets, and run a "dishwasher".  The stove unit
    had a tiny rotisserie that worked.  I never played "house" with
    it, but thoroughly enjoyed making all the working parts do what
    they were supposed to do.
    
    A small box camera when I was 8 was a favorite, as well.
    
    Camping equipment, and items from the Scout catalog were a big hit! 
    
    I wasn't allowed to have guns, but really missed being able to use
    "caps".
           
    As I got older, books, writing and drawing supplies, records, things
    for my room were my favorite gifts.
    
    I always hated getting clothes for gifts!  That seemed like such
    a rip-off.  With a September birthday, people were unable to keep
    themselves from giving me school clothes for birthday gifts.  I
    was perfectly happy to wear last year's clothes, and it seemed like
    everyone else got school clothes anyway...
    
    

I have two little guys on which to shower my attention back when I was a
"new" aunt.  Now I have 2 little girls and 2 new "steps", so I'm in
Auntie-heaven.

With the oldest, I decided to never consciously give him sexist toys.  I
did all of his babysitting and we got very close very quickly.  Lucky
for me I only lived 1 street away from his house.

I gave him toys to DO things.... he loved puzzles, especially the Disneys..
he adored his Lite-Brite, and a rockings horse, and lots of books.  He's
still fiendish about books and asked for books as his communion present
from me.  

As all little kids will, he bowed to pressure from TV and fell in love
with the Gobots and the Transformers and all of that...

Don't let it worry you, GodMom.... he can handle sexist toys as he
gets older if YOU help him learn the good stuff young.  Eric's favorite
toy is NOT his Transformers or his COnstrux, but it's his fake Cabbage
Patch doll Michael, whom we make clothes for together and for whom I
have to embroider all his jeans.

Eric' best reading partner in school is a girl, and he comes running to
ME for protection in the family, not his big strong uncles.

Show him a good example of a positive, powerful woman.... yank his chain
when he starts the "girls can't do that" stuff... he may not, who knows??

Never consciously undermine what his parents say, but it's okay to explain
that not everyone feels that way and you're entitled to yor opinion as
well... then let him make up his own mind.

As he gets older (Eric is now 8) you can build a wonderful bond with him...
I guess I just wanted to say to take it easy and just don't give him
toys you object to, but also consider his wishes.  He'll develop favorites
and it doesn' mean he's developing a social attitude because of it.

*sigh*  I envy you -- enjoy him!!!!

Bugsy

	    I agree with Ellen that makeup isn't that great a gift for
	boys or girls.  Part of the fun of makeup is its use in dress-
	ing up to act out adult roles.  If boys or girls have makeup
	to dress up like "the beautiful adult woman," that's the role
	they'll act out.  You have to ask yourself if that's a role you
	want them to aspire to or hold as desirable.
	    I imagine that clown makeup is a whole 'nother story.  With
	clown makeup, the kids can dress themselves up in a wide variety
	of roles, not just a stereotypical sexist one.
	    When giving gifts to children whose parents are active pro-
	moters of sexist values, or (much more likely) are into letting
	the chips fall where they may (and thus letting sexist society
	promote the sexist values), I tend towards subversively anti-
	sexist gifts.
	    Things like blocks are given to boys more often than to
	girls, but if you give a girl blocks, most parents won't give
	it a second thought.  Stuffed animals marketed for boys tend
	toward the "macho" animals:  snakes, lions, horses (girls get
	ponies - ever notice that?), tigers.  Assuming parents might
	object to a little pink pony for a boy (remember, I'm the sub-
	versive type), I'll buy the little boy a stuffed animal of
	ambiguous macho content:  a turtle, or a friendly baby lion cub.
	These also make great presents for girls, too.  Another toy that
	is great for both sexes is Lego.  When I was growing up, the
	lowdown was that Lego is for boys, not girls; but you can nip
	that in the bud by buying Lego for a girl at an early age (there
	is large-sized Lego for toddlers).
	    You usually don't have to worry about boys not getting their
	"masculine" toys and girls not getting their "feminine" toys.
	Most of the time there will be more people giving them stereo-
	typical toys than not - parents, grandparents, aunts (Hi Dave!),
	etc.  If that doesn't do it, endless TV toy commercials will.
			<_Jym_>
	P.S.:  My favorite toy at age 3 was a baby doll.  My family had
	concerns about my masculinity, so the doll was kept at my grand-
	parents' house, and I could only play with it there.  It was
	also stressed to me that it had to be a *boy* baby!

    What's wrong with GOBOTS, transformers, et al?
    
    I think the toys are great, it's the TV show and the movies that
    are exploitative. I say this because I remember seeing these things
    in one of those high-priced "adult" toy stores in Quincy Market,
    the Christmas *before* it hit the kids. I thought they were great
    and very imaginative (and bought one for myself).
    
    Maybe now they *are* getting out of hand, but that happens to any
    successful toy.
                                                   
                  /
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                  ) ///
                 /
    

    The main thing wrong with transformers is they are designed to 
    be destroyed.  The challenge is to fold on line a and insert into
    tab b until you have converted the car into a man into a helicopter.
    I can't usually figure them out, and even some kids can't.  When
    it doesn't bend where it "should", it gets forced and broken.  I
    have an extensive collection of damaged robots to illustrate this
    phenomena.

    re .13:
    
    well.... true... but I wouldn't say they are "designed to be
    destroyed", I think they are just not designed to be indestructable.
    I think any toy with more than 1 piece is susceptable to this.
    
    Anyway, I'm not really that big a fan of those things, I thought
    they were "neat" but I am not going to defend them to the death.
    
    Give'em Lego's
                                                   
                  /
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                 /
    

        Both my 5 year old and almost-3 year old boys love their baby
        dolls. Each doll was bought when Mama was pregnant with the next
        younger sibling. Both also love costumes and make-up. You can't
        fool them either. They know the high quality grease paint from
        the easily washable kid's stuff. They're also very big on
        super-hero figures, transformers (the real Japanese die-cast
        ones not the cheap American immitations), wooden swords, Tonka
        trucks, stuffed animals (both in realistic macho and sissy
        pastel), and packing materials from my latest piece of hardware
        at work.
        
        Toys are good for kids. Diversity among toys is very good, and
        so is an aspectof imagination. The only things we discourage (so
        far) are Hul Hogan wrestler figures and smurfs, both because
        they make Papa want to woof his cookies. 
        
        Kids have their own personalities and tastes from just about
        day one. They are also very immitative both of parents and
        older siblings. What I think is important is giving them
        the freedom to be what they want and to enjoy what they like.
        
        Someone said that kids by the time they are 4 or 5 know what is
        "not for boys/girls". Well maybe it's having a long-haired hippy
        for a father or the influence of father's weirdo friends like
        Ms. Cannoy, but my 5 year old shows no signs at all of feeling
        that having a baby doll or getting his nails painted is a
        girlish thing. I'd say most (~75%) of the games he plays and the
        toys he enjoys are "typical" boy things--trucks, robots, super
        heroes, swords, dinosaurs and the like, but the traditionally
        "girl" things are a real part of his life, something he can feel
        comfortable with.
        
        I suppose some day the kids at school will let him know what
        things aren't "appropriate", but I have the feeling that it
        won't make a big impression on him. In part this is because he
        really is a pretty secure little boy, and in part because he has
        a father who is still a bit of a male chauvanist pig and at the
        same time wears long hair, is fond of jewelry and fancy clothes
        and the like, and a mother who's both very feminine and a
        decided tom-boy.
        
        If we are provide our children with strong confident role
        models, I think they'll be able to pass through the gauntlet of
        our rather confused culture without too much trouble. It's not
        "sexist" toys that can hurt or confuse them, or even the peer
        pressure or the media. It's what we teach them by example. If we
        are comfortable with who WE are, and able to express our
        emotions and feelings and able to enjoy a wide variety of things
        then our children will learn to do the same. 
        
        JimB.

>    What's wrong with GOBOTS, transformers, et al?
    
I hate any toy that makes me feel like a moron in front of an 8 year old.
Eric handed me a Transformer that he got for Christmas not 10 minutes
previously and told me it changed into a jet airplane.  I said "Sure, kid...
and pigs will fly...."

He used no more than 5 handstrokes and the thing was something that Chuck
Yeager would have loved.

He handed it back to me, smiling. "Here... change it back..."

He wasn't being nice, he was being clever.  I heard the evil clickings in
the 8-year-old head.  He was waiting for me to screw it up so that the
NEXT time he wanted to pull Jon on a skateboard behind his bike on Route
93 and I said no, he'd have some leverage.  Why can't we, he insisted.
Someone will get hurt, and he asked me why I thought I *KNEW* someone would 
get hurt.  Someone didn't ALWAYS get hurt! Did I have a crystal ball or 
something?  *I* said "I'm bigger than you, Eric.  Adults know these things..."

Now he could smirk and remind me of the Transformer that wouldn't transform
into anything other than a lump in the bottom of the kitchen trashcan.
He never said a word as he fished it out, he just smiled.

And he's waiting for the chance..... he hasn't said anything yet, but every
time he has a Transformer in his hands, he's always smiling.... 

Bugsy

    Get a set of real little screw drivers. Take the Transformers
    apart and re-assemble then in the 'other' format. It seems
    easier somehow and it really impresses the kids. Same thing
    works for Rubic's Cube.
    
    		Alfred

> What's wrong with GOBOTS, transformers, et al?

Well, every one I've seen has some sort of weapon attached to it.  The
 arm turns into a death ray, or the whole toy folds into a child-sized
  gun.  If you don't like your children playing with war toys, these
   aren't the toys to get for them.

The idea of toys that fold into different things is a winner, though,
 and I hope they come up with a different theme besides war for it.
  I would think that a "builder" theme would fit right in.
   <_Jym_>