Conference yukon::christian_v7

	re.0

	Farm-boy,  8*)

	To misuse the Lord's name is to take it in vain.

ace

Exodus 20:7  Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for
the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Too many people think that this commandment is for those who blithely
say "Oh my God" and "Jesus Christ" as expressions of emotion.  But consider
that this commandment made the Big Ten, and goes far beyond the ignorant
and their misuse of his name.

So many people call themselves Christian these days that it has almost
lost its meaning.  And some even sneer in derision when someone suggests
that being a Christian is anything but following the Person of Jesus Christ;
to emulate Him and know Him on an intimate level.

I believe that there will be many guilty "Christians" who will fare far
worse on Judgment Day than the ignorant, low-wattage person who unthinkingly 
says, "Oh my God."

We bear the name of God when we call ourselves by one of his titles: Christ.
When we trample it "among the heathen" will the Lord hold us guiltless?

The Israelites were a bunch of nobody nomads until God pulled them out of
obscurity and place His identifying mark upon them.  And they are NOTHING
without the identification with the Holy God.  They were called to be
light and salt to the world; an example of what God can do.

You and I are NOBODY; a life without purpose or fulfillment, unless and
until God places His identifying mark upon us.  And when we bear His name,
Christian, we are called to be light and salt in a world that is darkness
and decay.

Tangent on salt.  We tend to forget that we have refrigeration and often 
think of ourselves being salt as "flavor" and that's rather nice.  But
salt was a preservative.  Salt was marinated, rubbed, and permeated into 
meat so that it would be preserved from decaying; preserved from bacteria
that destroys the meat.  We are to be salt in a world that is decaying.
Are we using the Lord's name (Christian) in vain?

Tangent on light.  Let's stop complaining about the world because of its 
darkness and criticizing ourselves for not being light to dispel the darkness!
Are we lighting up the darkness of our world or are we taking the name
of God in vain?

The name of God is an identifier with a Holy God which God takes very seriously,
because when people with God's identity fail, it reflect poorly on Him.  When
Israel failed, YHWY was derided by the nations because of them.  And when
Christians fail, God is held in contempt.  We fail at being light and salt,
when we should be bringing God glory and honor by dispelling darkness and
preserving the world from decay.

Outside of God's power, we are nothing; and worse than nothing if we cloak 
ourselves in the name of Jesus Christ as His follower, for we would then
use the name of the Lord in vain.

    The biblical basis for praying in Jesus' Name:
    
    In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth,
    my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have
    not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your
    joy will be complete.
    
    Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will
    no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my
    Father. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I
    will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you
    because you have loved me and believed that I came from God.
    
    John 16:23 - 27  NIV
                          

	thanks Rebecca, I knew it was in there somewhere !

    "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of  the Lord
    Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. " Colossians 3:17

    Markel,
    
     Don't stop there... go to verses 23 and 24 . They tell us do do our
    work heartily, as unto the Lord.
    
     It's not just a cse of doing something and saying "in Jesus' name"
    while you do it. It's more a matter of how and why you do it. Do your
    work heartily (put some OOMPH !! into it) because you are doing it for
    Jesus; because you are His and you love Him and want to please Him!
    
     The same goes for praying in Jesus' name. I can pray for marriages to
    end, for people to suffer horribly for their sins, for Christians to
    become Politically Correct,  and I can even place the words "in the
    name of Jesus" on the end of my prayers. But even so, I would not be
    praying in Jesus' name because I would not be praying in accordance to
    His will as is revealed in Scripture. 
    
     There is more to doing something in the name of Jesus than just using
    the words to accompany the deed. The deed itself, and the motive behind
    the deed, must conform to the will and working of Jesus, in order to be
    truly in the name of Jesus.
    
    Just my opinion, but flames are still welcome :-)
    
    Gil 

    Gil,
    
    No flames.  I agree with what you said.  I was adding that verse more
    as and "addendum" to the verses from a couple of notes earlier. 
    
    Mark L

	Yet Gil, when we pray rightly (in accordance with scripture)
	do you feel there's a wrong in praying "in Jesus name" ?

    Though I don't make anyone an offender for a word, I do like to point
    out:  what *is* Jesus' name today?  Upon His resurrection, He has been
    given the "name which is above every name:  That at the name of Jesus
    every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and
    things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that
    Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:9-11)
    The first (chronological) mention of "Lord Jesus" is in Luke 24:3 "And
    they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus."  I
    personally believe that this is the name which most honors Him today,
    and I tend to pray "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"
    
    Mark L.

	Why is, "Oh my God" taking the Lord's name in vain?



Glen

    RE: .8
    
     Karen,
    
      No problem with saying "in Jesus name" when you pray, as long as you
    do not use that name vainly. I have just purposed in my heart not to
    misuse His glorious name and want to encourage others to do so.
    
    Re .9 
    
     Markel
      
      I like that!
    
    Gil

>	Why is, "Oh my God" taking the Lord's name in vain?

It isn't, necessarily.  If you are saying it because you are really calling upon
God, it isn't.  I don't think it even has to necessarily be a serious crying out
to God, but at least some thought to the effect of "Dear Lord, will you look at
that!"

Too often, people just say it as an expression, without the slightest thought of
the living creator of the universe.  That's using it in vain.

Paul

| <<< Note 192.12 by EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both" >>>




| Too often, people just say it as an expression, without the slightest thought of
| the living creator of the universe.  That's using it in vain.

	I'm confused by this Paul. How does one know when someone else is using
it as an expression? Do you have any examples?


Thanks in advance,


Glen

Well, just the standard "Oh my G_d" that many people use as a simple expression
of surprise.  Or "J___s C____t", use in the same way.

When used in this way, the person is generally not thinking at all about the
creator of the universe nor of the savior of the world.  They are just using the
name of God and the name of Christ as common expressions, not connected with the
person of God or the person of Christ at all.

Paul

	I heard someone mention that the term "Gee" is a derivative of the
Lord's name (Jesus). If true, most unconsciously take his name in vain.

ace

>	I heard someone mention that the term "Gee" is a derivative of the
>Lord's name (Jesus). If true, most unconsciously take his name in vain.

Several (most?) "ok" expletives are derivatives of "not-ok" expletives.  As
you mention, "Gee" probably comes originally from "Jesus."  So also "Gosh" 
probably comes from "God."  It doesn't take much imagination to figure out where
SH.....ucks comes from, or PH(f)......ooey, or DA......rn.

That doesn't mean that these derivatives are the equivalent of their original.
If I say "shucks", am I really saying that other "sh" word?  If not, then no 
more am I really saying "Jesus" if I say "Gee."  The derivatives have passed 
from being a variant to being words in their own right.  They're not synonyms - 
no one would know what you were talking about if you tried to use "Gee" or 
"Gosh" as references to Jesus or God.

They may have come from there, but they don't mean that any longer.  I don't
believe that using them is using the Lord's name at all, in vain or otherwise.

Paul

"Phooey" comes from "pfui" which is imitative of spitting.

/john

    re: "Phooey" -- reminds me of a blind Digital employee down in ALF (we
    went through 5 weeks of training together) who has a guide dog named
    Xyla (not sure of the spelling).  Part of the training of a guide dog
    is to have a "key" word to tell the dog that it has just done something
    seriously wrong (like lead you under a low branch).  She needed a word
    that wouldn't be publicly offensive, yet applicable -- she chose
    "phooey".  If we ever used "phooey" in the presence of Xyla, we were
    reprimanded (mildly) -- didn't want to hurt the poor dog's feelings! :-)
    
    Mark L.

Phine, Phooey doesn't phit with the others.  The rest of what I said is 
unchanged by that phact.

Paul

"Bloody" is a reference to "God's blood".

/john

    Folks,
    
    You may be interested to learn that a fresh topic has just been created 
    this week in the ESSAT::HUMOR Conference (To quote Chele earlier this 
    morning: 
    
    "Definitely the land of the 'next unseen'. Lots of blecch." 
    
    but also some geniunely funny stuff in there) entitled "Jesus Christ".
    
    This most definitly is NOT an attempt to proclaim the Gospel to the 
    masses, and falls into the area of taking the Lord's name in vain, 
    however, as I have not been with Digital for too long and do not know the 
    ins and outs of the rules for Conferences, would you feel that this 
    constitutes an offense to the extent that it should attract Moderator 
    action?
    
    I gather that this particular Conference is located in the States, and 
    that the Moderator, Tim Theo is located at MKO.
    
    If you feel strongly on this issue, perhaps a few mails off-line to him 
    might persuade him to take some action - what do you think?
    
    Paul

	re.22

	I see no humor in that. It is offense.

The whole "this offends me, stop it" PC mentality offends me.  I find that joke
in very poor taste, offensive, if you like that word, and would not repeat it.  
I find an awful lot of other jokes, which have nothing to do with Christ, to be 
in the same category.  But I would not think of telling people: "You must stop 
this, it offends me, or I'll go tell personnel."

It might be worth posting a note just saying something to the effect of:  "If
anyone were to post a note like this attacking blacks, or jews, or homosexual
people, or any of the other so-called 'protected' groups, you'd have someone who
was 'offended' breathing down personnel's neck before you could blink.  Not that
we would do such a thing, but why does everyone feel that it's perfectly fine
to pick on the Christians?

Paul

    John,
    
     I see no humor whatsoever in the sample joke that you posted.  I dont
    belive that I am over sensitive.

         Re .24:
         
         On checking back (no particular vindictive motive - just following 
         my natural curiosity!) through the same Conference I came across 
         the following:
         
================================================================================
Conference:  HUMOR

Topic title: Jesus as a kid.
Note title:  It's a first!                                       Lines:   6
Author:      34631::GILLEY     I thought I knew how to program.
Number:      461.8        Created: 01-Jun-1992 01:54pm           Replies: 17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, everybody give me congratulations.  I have finally been offended by
something in a notes file.  Hmmm, <string> won't even fit here.

Now, what I want to know is if there is a Mohommed joke topic.

Charlie


================================================================================
Conference:  HUMOR

Topic title: Jesus as a kid.
Note title:  Dangerous ground.....                               Lines:   1
Author:      REPAIR::RICKETTS     I practise safe hex
Number:      461.9        Created: 02-Jun-1992 04:08am           Replies: 17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      There is, in SALMAN::RUSHDIE, but its been set hidden. 8*/



         		                                
         
         I suspect 461.9 is a wind-up, but the note-title is interesting.
         
         Paul

    
    re .27
    
      >Some people don't like any puns.
      give me a break John, it's more than just a pun. 
    
      >You didn't say you were offended...
    
       OK so now I'm saying it; it offends me and it pokes fun at the 
       character of Christ.
    
    

John, do you think the joke was funny?

Why shouldn't a Christian get upset over these?  (ref. .22)

Just looking for a little clarification, John.

Mark

	I read it a few times and I was surprised to see it in this conference.
It is offensive and I think those who were offended clearly stated why. 

	As far as why do people feel it's ok to pick on Christians, here is one
thought about it. I don't think that Christians are singled out from any other
group. It seems that if people want to say anything about any group, they will.
It's too bad that it is that way. But I do agree that if you had put any other
group into that equation it may have been elevated by someone. Maybe it should?
That's up to you. In order for it to get to that level someone has to take the
initiative first. Maybe that's the difference?



Glen

	re.30

	John,

	> Does that action edify?

	No, but neither does the joke. 

	You bring up an interesting point. I find no evidence that believers
should strive for edification with the scoffers of the Lord. As we are able, we
should live peaceably I agree, but these have no desire for that and the
christian should not stand idly by.

ace

>But does "getting upset" mean that action must be taken against the conference
>or the authors of the jokes?
>
>Does that action edify?

I'm with Paul Weiss and you on this one, by the way.  I was asking for some
clarification.

I think the joke stinks because it slams my belief system.
I think the joke had a valid pun and therefore is a joke.
I think the person who tells such a joke is insensitive, and perhaps
  unwitting in his or her remarks.
I think some Christians (like myself) will have to be careful about
  casting stones if we ever make [not-so-]subtle, or pun jokes about religious
  organizations besides our own, and not shrug them off as benign humor.

You can ask the joke teller to remove it.
You can state that you didn't find it amusing.
Beyond this, I think we, as Christians and employees, overstep our bounds.
State the Truth; give people an informed choice; let them choose and
 bear the consequences.

Mark

>The christian should not stand idly by.

What is the job of the Christian in such a case, Ace?

I'm the first person here who doesn't feel Christians should be doormats,
walked on by ignorant, unwitting, or even nefarious nibblers.

Is there something that should be done beyond stating the offense taken?
Why?

re.34
	Mark,

	Actually, your description in .33 seemed alright to me. Eventually,
the Lord will judge all things, including that joke. In principle, there is
not a "correct christian procedure" for dealing with these matters. We, as
believers, should deal with matters according to the flow of Life within. 
No flow, no go. If before the Lord I feel to take it to personnel then I 
should, if not then I shouldn't. 

	I mainly disagree with the notion of doing nothing as a practice. That
particular joke provoked my spirit. Since it was posted here, I responded to it
here. 

ace

Then we agree, Hermano.  We can do nothing better than to obey the Lord's
prompting, and nothing worse than to ignore it.

Mark

I have set reply .22 hidden, because it treats as a source of humour the
most sacred and humbling event creation has known, suffered by the dearest,
most precious Person I know, on my behalf.

I'm sorry I've been so late in doing so - I'm still catching up from vacation.

This is a most unsuitable quote to offer people who know the LORD Jesus as
Saviour and God.  We join here to enjoy fellowship, not to sicken ourselves
with the clumsy efforts of an ignorant world to reduce what is holy to the 
obscenity they can understand.  If your son asked for bread, would you give 
him a stone?  If people come in here to find our LORD, do we offer Him 
ridiculed in what He suffered for us?

We meet God's Name taken in vain continually in the world.  That is all 
the more reason for us to remember that His Name is holy.  We are to be 
salt and light, not by losing our saltness, or by covering our light, but 
by letting it shine...

							Andrew Yuille
							co-moderator

    Thanks, Andrew.
    
    A couple years ago, I was in some other conference (forget which one)
    and someone had posted a similar "Jesus-joke".  In my "enlightened"
    mind, I figured, laugh along with them.
    
    That very weekend, the sermon focussed on the Roman soldiers mocking
    Him as He hang there dying for them, for me, for all of us.
    
    First thing Monday morning, I apologized in the file for furthering
    such mocking of Him and His Work.
    
    There is nothing funny about His atoning death and of *all* people in
    this world, those of us who call ourselves His should take no part in
    the continual mocking He receives.  That "joke" was ugly and offensive,
    and while one *might* make an excuse for a non-believer to post it in a
    "humor" file, there's no excuse for it to remain here.
    
    Oddly enough, that same Work I so easily mocked along with the
    unbelievers is the very Work that cleansed me of such great sin.
    
    Oh how great is G-d's mercy!  May those of us who've tasted and seen
    thta the L-rd is good never mock or shame Him.
    
    Thanks, Andrew for deleting it.
    
    Steve
    

I just wanted to make my stand with those who found the joke offensive.
To laugh at what Jesus did for humanity by His suffering, humiliation,
and death makes me cry inside for those who do not understand.  Mark,
I appreciated your notes and agree with you, Steve, that was beautifully 
said. 

Leslie