Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I have MUCH to say on this subject. Alas, time is limited. I promise to
    be back though.
    
    Count on it.
    
    Gil

Dear Husband,

  A wife can only submit to her husband to the measure that he loves
  her as Christ loved the church.

  This does not mean that a wife >will< respond to the love of a
  husband who loves as Christ loved.  People reject Christ all the
  time.  However, a wife's ability to submit is limited by the
  husband's sacrificial love and she cannot approach full submission
  if her husband does not exhibit the love of God. 

  As Christian husbands, we have heard all the anecdotes and
  applications of Scripture about husbands and wives.  We like to
  tease the women about submitting, and the wives retort with either a
  rejection of this based on society, or with Scripture to tell their
  husbands to love them as Christ loved the church.

  What this has done for Christian marriages is arm us with a database
  of information so that should someone give us a test, we could
  easily rattle off the correct answers.  In other words, a Christian
  marriage is reduced to an intellectual exercise.  We know the right
  answers, and we know a little about what we should be doing, but our
  knowledge does not go beyond the data stage into the experience
  stage.  It is easy to recall data, but a wholly different thing to
  apply the data in the routine of everyday life; even deeper than
  applying it to the daily routine, we should be applying it to our
  being so that it changes us, becomes a part of us, is us.

  I have seen many a "happy" marriage, and not a few "troubled"
  marriages.  Both of these types of marriages that I have seen have
  >NOT< been the fullness of one flesh. Happy has been defined as a
  lack of strife, as if peace was merely the absence of conflict.
  Marriage is reduced to co-habitation between genuinely affectionate
  persons.  REDUCED!!!

  In Ephesians 5:31-32, it says:

   31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and
  shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
   32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the
  church.

  One flesh is something husbands and wives should be, but then Paul
  says something curious: "But I speak concerning Christ and the
  church."  

  We have heard "as Christ loves the church" so that it rolls off the
  tongue almost as one syllable; rote; data without application. 
  Husband, if you want to experience one flesh with your wife (and
  this transcends any sexual experience you'll ever have), you must
  find out how Christ loved the church.  Leave the data in the memory
  bank: (a search brings up the word "sacrificially.")  What are the
  meanings of these words?

  You must >>>know<<< Christ.  You must become intimate with God.  If
  you are part of the church, you need to submit yourself to the Lord,
  as a wife is to submit to her husband.  Have we as husbands
  submitted to God?  Are we REALLY submitted to God?  As Paul said, "I
  want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection," we need to
  know God in the biblical sense, (again this is not only a sexual
  union, but a union of spirit).

  Stop co-habitating affectionately with your spouse.  Stop only
  knowing God intellectually and performing the things you ought to do
  out of a list from your database.  Stop popping the correct answers
  in your brain and doing those things merely because you know these
  to be good things that God wants.

  Start to know God for Who He is.  Start to do things you ought to do
  >>>because of Who God is.<<<  You cannot simply take the
  commandments of God like a chore (or To-Do) list and choose the
  commandments (chores) you will be doing; the Person Who gives the
  commandment PRECEDES the commandment and is greater than the
  commandment given!
   
  He is more (most) important, and you WILL do what you ought when You
  become intimate with God himself.  When you begin to know God in the
  mystery of Christ and the church, you will not be able to contain
  your love for your wife and will begin to love her as Christ loves
  the church.  Whether or not she responds is not your concern, nor is
  her response a result of your effort, but Christ in you will channel
  the love of God in her life.  She will see what unconditional love
  really means and that's a powerful and compelling force to resist.

  So all the books, good advice and all, must be predicated on the
  God-first principle.  When you know God on an intimately personal
  basis, you will be able to experience what one flesh means.

"I am a good husband."  (You wives can listen in, too).

Some of us are saved from sin.  We live life (for the most part) within
the parameters of Christian behavior.  We've met the requirements; so
what more is there?  This must be one flesh, right?  I'm a good husband,
a godly man, a Christian husband.

"I am a good husband and try to do what God would have me do."  And this
is a good thing!  But once you go deeper and take the focus off of 'trying
to do' and put the focus on 'trying to be', 'trying to do' becomes a shadow in
the light of being.

Folks, Christianity is the relationship and not simply a way of life.
The relationship with the Person of God teaches us how to have perfect
relationships with our wives (one flesh).

God is Person and not a concept.  Christianity is a relationship and not 
a way of life.  You and I are to be and not only to do.

"Be ye holy..."
"Be filled with the Holy Spirit..."
"Be doers of the Word..."

Christ loved the church with His being.  God is love!
Do you act as if you love your wife?  Stop acting and love her!

I know you can't just tell someone who is a good husband to be part of
a one flesh relationship; it has to be real, beyond the words and the telling;
you have to *know* it and *be* it.

Mark

    I remember at a men's retreat several years ago our guest speaker for
    the weekend discussed the role of the husband in the marriage.  He
    pointed out how many men like to refer to "Wives, submit to your
    husbands as to the Lord.", Eph. 5:22, trying to get their wives to be
    submissive to their every whim.

    Unfortunately, he said, most men tend to ignore the message just three
    verses later, only read part of the verse, or don't take the
    instruction far enough.  Eph. 5:25 says "Husbands, love your wives,
    just as Christ loved the church..." and many men just think that that
    is as far as you take it, or think that a few "I love you's" will
    suffice to fulfill this instruction.  However, the rest of that verse
    is "...and gave himself up for her".  The point that most men fail to
    recognize is that Christ did not sit back and expect to be waited on by
    the church.  Instead, He made himself a servant to the church.  Many
    husbands (myself included) would rather sit back and be waited on hand
    and foot by our wives.  Hearing this scripture put into a different
    light made a big difference in the way I treat and respond to my wife.

    I still provide plenty of "I love you" statements but I also back them
    up with my actions.

    Ron

    And if memory serves, look before :22 and you will see that we are all
    to submit one to another...can someone with a bible check this out for
    me, please?
    
    -sandy (a casual noter)
    

Hi Sandy,
  You are correct!  But this does not negate the headship of the husband 
over the wife, nor the submission of the wife to her husband.  Submitting
to each other in the fear of the Lord deals with people and not the husband
wife relationship.  Husband and wife are people, and in this respect they
are to submit to each other.

Ephesians 5:21  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

But in the marital relationship, the husband is the head and wives are to submit.

A lot of people see the word "submit" and attach a negative connotation to it.
When you see the qualifiers "as unto the Lord" and "as Christ loved the church"
it should make it clear the KIND of sumbission and the KIND of leadership
each should have.

Further, the very concept of ONE FLESH means that the "two become one" and
how can "One" be over itself?  Christ warns people not to lord it over 
others, and Paul tells husbands that they have the responsibility to 
***LOVE AS CHRIST LOVED***.  

How hard is it to submit to God, Who loves us with a perfect (agape) love?
Does God limit us?  Does God exert His rightful Lordship, or does He 
allow us to choose our paths?

God wants a bride presented to Him without spot or blemish, and it will
be those of us who submit to the Lord out of love to Him (and not by 
a forced submission) who will be the Bride.

Mark

    -1
    
    Mark believing what you've written to be true, why do you think that
    the traditional Christian Home is in such turmoil today?  Why is it
    that women who have been married for near 15 to 25 years are turning to
    their Christian husbands and asking for a divorce?
    
    The top 3 complaints I hear from Christian wives are these:
    
    1.  He just commands obedience, he doesn't listen to my point of view.
    
    2.  He doesn't talk to me, we don't communicate.
    
    3.  He's always ready to help someone else, but I can't get
        the blasted garage door fixed! 
    
    You can say that this is representative of the *male* persona, but when we
    are in Christ aren't we NEW creatures... even though we are still flesh
    shouldn't there be a humility about our relationships?
    
    Nancy

The charges you make against the male/Christian/husband are true of many!

>    1.  He just commands obedience, he doesn't listen to my point of view.

  People want just enough Christianity to meet the minimum requirements
to keep them out of hell and don't pursue (press forward) for the 
REAL MEANING of Christianity - following Christ in every way, every example,
every word.

  The charge, while it judges many husbands guilty, does NOT represent the
Christian Husband - that is the husband who loves as Christ loves.  And if
we, as husbands have failed in this area, we, as husbands need to learn
some old fashioned repentance, humility, and forgiveness for our stupidity.

>    2.  He doesn't talk to me, we don't communicate.

  This charge is more complex than it sounds, but at the root is a setting
hardness of apathy and indifference.  Indifference or apathy is the opposite
of love, (hate isn't).

  It again convicts many, but does NOT convict the husband who is loving
as Christ loved, because Christ participates in a relationship. 

>    3.  He's always ready to help someone else, but I can't get
>        the blasted garage door fixed! 

  This is also a buried complaint.  People are much more important than 
garage doors.  However, if you are speaking of neglect of the wife, you
will have a point - but *things* take a back seat to others.  Perhaps the
priority (on the surface of this statement) needs to be examined.

>    You can say that this is representative of the *male* persona, but when we
>    are in Christ aren't we NEW creatures... even though we are still flesh
>    shouldn't there be a humility about our relationships?

We SHOULD be and if we're not, we need to be taking stock of ourselves and
asking the Lord's forgiveness and to teach us how to love *AS CHRIST LOVES*.

Mark

    I believe you are right #3 is a mere symptom of the real need of the
    wife, which is for her husband to make her his *first ministry*.  
    
    Many of the Christian wives I meet say that they feel "unimportant" to
    their husbands... oh he meets the physical needs, but because of the
    lack of *real* sharing, when it comes time for intimate sharing there
    is much lacking.  Our sex life isn't exciting, it's as though I'm the
    shaving cream can that just gets touched when it serves a need.
    
    What men feel as comfortable and sometimes women feel as comfortable,
    often times to their mate is unfulfilling.  A woman *never loses* the
    need to be seduced or pampered... do men?
    
    Nancy

    
>  What men feel as comfortable and sometimes women feel as comfortable,
>  often times to their mate is unfulfilling.  A woman *never loses* the
>  need to be seduced or pampered... do men?

   I have never lost the need to know that I am loved. This expresses 
   itself in different ways at different times. Most of the time, a hug
   will do. Often, though, sustained (albeit non-sexual) mutual touching
   and caressing is required. And I *do* like being seduced by Robin 
   occassionally (and she's *very* good at it, BTW).

   So, no, I don't think that men lose the need, either. We might just be
   a little better at covering up the absence, because we've been socially
   trained to no display "weakness." Acknowledging real needs is perceived
   by some to be a sign of weakness. This is why some "macho men" have
   such a difficult time getting to the point where they can even admit
   their need and want for a (deeper) walk with our L_rd.

   Brian

I have heard that a woman will go anywhere with a man as long as she knows
that she's loved.  However, one the male side, what is more important to
him is her respect.  He will "go anywhere" as long as his wife respects him.

This is a subtle, yet profound distinction between male and female.

About sexuality: some of us need to be touched more often than others,
plain and simple, and we need to become more aware of our spouse's needs
as they interface with our own.  For example, to my temperament, I wondered
if my wife had thought I had changed my mind about loving her when she
would periodically ask "Do you love me?"  I would think or say, "Of course
I love you.  Have I told you otherwise?"  You see, to me, it is an established
and unchanging fact and there isn't a need in me to be repetitious, redundant,
or saying the same thing.  (;-))  But in my wife, she needs the constant
verbal reminders.  I didn't have to change her to suit my temperament,
and I shouldn't!  I had to meet her need, and so, because I knew she needed
it, I began to tell her that I love here, even though it was a redundant
statement of fact.

By the way, the poor woman gets my hands all over her all the time and despite
this she needed the verbal statement.  I say despite this because to me, this
was tangible proof of my love for her - but to her, it might have only been
seeing her only as an object.  And by the way, moreover, she recognized in me
that this was a way that I demonstrated my desire and love for her (even though
it really bugged her while she did the dishes), and now, I think, she'd think
something was wrong if she wasn't pawed a few times a day!

The point is that men and women, (as do all people, but moreso men and women),
deal with issues and perspectives differently and if the attempt to 
recognize these differences is made, then one can begin to meet the 
needs of the other, out of love.  Otherwise, we are left with Henry Higgins
who asks "Why can't a woman be more like a man?"  The idea being that men
are so sensible when in fact we just have some difference that need to be
understood.

To be sure, some men are guilty of objectifying their spouse.  Don't blame
the biblical model for a Christian marriage, though.  Blame ignorance, or
selfishness, or both.

As for being seduced, the door swings both ways.  Pursuit and being pursued
can be a rut that can tire a man out.  It's game playing.  There's
nothing wrong with playing games, mind you, if you agree to the game
and its rules.  But if the man is left to pursue all the time and 
perform some precursory ritual before sexual relations, then it too can
become meaningless, boring, mundane, etc.  Same for women, if she is the
one to always seduce (and statistically it takes less energy to seduce a man
;-) ), then it's pits-ville.

I've posted a book reference before called "Intended for Pleasure" by
Ed and Gaye Wheat.  It is an excellent Christian manual.  And I must 
emphasize that fulfillment in sex, in companionship, in any marital
relation is PREDICATED on a ONE FLESH marriage.  When the two are one,
casual sex (the quickie) is not a bad thing to do, just as the romance,
passion, and excursions are not sustainable in a constant.  When the two
are one, you are a unit.  (A "I'm tired" is responded to with, "okay. but
let's gets some rest and get to bed early tomorrow." "Okay.")

The thing that impacts my sex life is busy-ness: hers or mine. (and Stress.) 
We have to expect this from time to time.  But if it last for a significant
amount of time, then something needs a priority check.

Get this: "Anything that puts a wedge between you and your spouse is an enemy
to the marriage."

My kids?  Yes, the kids.  If you put God first, all things will come into
right priority.  You will put your spouse in his or her place above
the children.  The children will NOT be neglected, for their love and care
are also part of God's plan.  You don't divide your love; you multiply it;
that's God's economy.

The job?  Especially the job.  We expect job demands from time to time, 
but LIFE IS SHORT and God provides for you, not the job.  When the job is
gone, you'll have a wife to get to know (if you're lucky and she's still
around).

Recognize the wedges between you and your mate and come together to devise
a plan against that wedge.  Come together as one.

I tell you that if your priorities are where they should be, there'll
be shaving cream all over the place, and not just when it is needed.
That's because the economy of love is in place and God is Lord of all,
including your one flesh.  What God has joined together *let not man*
put asunder.

Mark