Conference yukon::christian_v7

Love is more than emotion.

I am to love Joy, even [perhaps especially] when the emotion isn't handy.

Rafael's insensitivity of not notifying you of his changed plans was repented of,
(if you can believe him or not), and so forgiveness is not an emotion either.
It is a condition you choose to give; a pardon of offense.

What sticks, if forgivneess is not given is resentment; that's an emotion
and attitude that eats at you.  But forgiveness from the will to forgive
begins the cleansing of the resentment (which may take a little more time
than an instantaneous pardon).

Mark

I am sorry to hear your expectations were treated so lightly.

    It sounds like you're still a little "in love," Nancy.  If you had
    zero feelings for the guy, you would not have felt so hurt.  It's
    much easier to blow off the inconsiderateness of someone you're
    apathetic about.
    
    My heart goes out to you.  Rejection hurts in a way unlike other hurts.
    
    Richard
    

    You know what Our Lord has told us to do about loving.  It is obvious
    in everything you write that you are an exceptional, loving Christian. 
    It sounds like you could do with some assertiveness training.  Your Ex
    walked all over you and you got into questioning your love.  I believe
    you need to assert your feelings - yes, there is a little anger, since
    you had an appointment and were stood up - if you did that with your
    Physician, he would charge you for the meeting you did not keep - this
    is not done in anger, but makes you realize that you cost him some
    time.  A friend, would not have left until you were notified and a
    compromise established.  Sounds like your Ex just about puts no value
    on your person, and then makes you feel guilty for his  lack of
    consideration for you.  I probably would have returned the chair for a
    refund and treated myself to a luxury - much as the Doctor charges you
    for the visit.  I would have left a note, saying I was here at the
    appointed time, it annoys me that you couldn't leave a message, and I
    am sorry but I was forced to return the present.  In the future, please
    don't stand me up, I consider it disrespectful.  When he brought the
    boys back, I would have delivered the food to him and given him a
    Father's Day card.  Later, I would pray that he be helped and make
    certain that my anger had been released.  
    
    Nancy, you don't need to know how to love - you need to be assertive,
    letting others know how their actions affect you, but without
    judgement, anger or guilt.
    
    In His Name,
    
    Daryl

>Love is more than emotion.

    Yes, it is... sigh it is an action...which I have been patiently trying
    to show for the last 13 years... but am failing miserably.
    
>I am to love Joy, even [perhaps especially] when the emotion isn't handy.
    
    I can see you doing this.

>Rafael's insensitivity of not notifying you of his changed plans was repented of,
>(if you can believe him or not), and so forgiveness is not an emotion either.
    
    Not really, he lied to me to cover up his inconsideration.  I have
    never, ever come over to his house for dinner.  He claims that is what
    he understood me to say... and that was why he accepted the invitation
    to go to lunch with his daughter...Is an apology based on an untruth
    really an apology?  When Rafael and I discussed Father's Day [3 x] it
    was determined that I would be there after church... that is by 1:30 in
    the afternoon... he left his place at 1:00 in the afternoon.
    
>It is a condition you choose to give; a pardon of offense.
    
    Sorry, I don't understand this pardon stuff... how does one pardon when
    one isn't God?
    
>What sticks, if forgivneess is not given is resentment; that's an emotion
>and attitude that eats at you.  But forgiveness from the will to forgive
>begins the cleansing of the resentment (which may take a little more time
>than an instantaneous pardon).
    
    Resentment is not something I've ever been good at...If you knew me
    very well, you'd know that once an issue is over with me, it's over, it
    doesn't come up for me unless someone else brings it to mind.
    
    I had a Sales Rep in the office blame me for losing paperwork that I
    never had on my desk...[he used me as the fall guy] and even though he
    never admitted his wrong, I never thought about it again... until he
    tried to do the same thing again to me [just last week], it's funny I
    didn't even remember the first incident until now [as I was writing
    this].  :-)
    
>I am sorry to hear your expectations were treated so lightly.
    
    Thanks, they weren't so much expectations though as they were my trying
    to teach my sons respect and honor of their father and being an example
    of that.
    
    Nancy

>    It sounds like you're still a little "in love," Nancy.  If you had
>    zero feelings for the guy, you would not have felt so hurt.  It's
>    much easier to blow off the inconsiderateness of someone you're
>    apathetic about.
 
    In the last two years, Rafael has over and over again told me he loves
    me and wants our marriage restored.. However, he will not get help for
    his drinking and our faiths are incompatible, I have one and he has
    none.
    
    If those could be reconciled then our relationship might have a
    chance.
       
    >My heart goes out to you.  Rejection hurts in a way unlike other hurts.
    
    I wish more others had the heart to say this when they see someone
    hurting.  Thanks and I must say I'm pleasantly surprised to see that
    you care.
    
    Nancy    
    

>    consideration for you.  I probably would have returned the chair for a
>    refund and treated myself to a luxury - much as the Doctor charges you
>    for the visit.  I would have left a note, saying I was here at the
>    appointed time, it annoys me that you couldn't leave a message, and I
>    am sorry but I was forced to return the present.  In the future, please
>    don't stand me up, I consider it disrespectful.  When he brought the
>    boys back, I would have delivered the food to him and given him a
>    Father's Day card.  Later, I would pray that he be helped and make
>    certain that my anger had been released.  
 
    This something I'm not capable of doing... I believe the chair in his
    home as a constant reminder of the unconditonal love I've offered is
    far worse then if I'd returned it ... don't you?
       
    >you need to be assertive,
    >letting others know how their actions affect you, but without
    >judgement, anger or guilt.
    
    You are right this is not something I excel in.
    
    Nancy

> Is an apology based on an untruth really an apology?

 No, I don't think so.  But this was not made clear that his apology was
insincere.  And one must be careful with judging insincerity because it
can be quite incorrect.

Brian> Especially in retrospect, how credible was our repentance before G_d 
Brian> when we first came to Him and sought forgiveness and pardon? 
Brian> What was His response?

Whoever comes to God must be sincere in his or her apology to God for the
sins committed.  Contrition is an attitude of the heart that is apart from
the motivation.  I may come to God as a "fire-escape" (I don't want to
go to hell) and be sorry for my sins based on knowing that my guilt 
condition (not necessarily accompanied with guilt feelings) condemns me.

Back to sincerity, though.  I have no way of knowing whether Rafeal was 
sincere in his apology.  You simply said, "that he appreciated the gift
and was sorry that he hadn't called"  You have a better view of his
sincerity, no doubt, but when emotions cloud reason, we can tend to 
place lots of meaning where there is little or none.  "Blow things
out of proportion."

Letting things go isn't always the same as forgiving (pardoning), because
we both know it can resurface (whether someone else brings it up, or 
it comes to mind because of some emotional trauma).  If left unforgiven,
it is still "on account."  A legal pardon means the charge no longer is
on account and cannot be used as future evidence.  Letting things go
only tucks it away in the bank, and some people have hefty bank accounts
upon which they draw when they need the currency.

Again, I'm sorry you've had this inconsideration against you (holidays are
more often the culprits, anyway).  I don't like it when it happens to me,
either, and when it does, I have to deal with it as well.

Mark

    .7
    
    Andrew, as usual, you are a gem... every word you wrote, I cling to. 
    As I know you, I understand that from the heart and soul is minimizing
    your words... Thanks so very much.
    
    I *hear* you and am *encouraged*.
    
    Nancy

    re.6
    
    Leaving the chair as a constant reminder is far worse than taking it
    back is correct.  But, it is you that it will be far worse for.  You
    have judged him, and you have taken a vindictive position, at least as
    your comment asserts "...far worse...".  That is why I would return the
    chair and buy myself a luxury so that I would be reminded that we must
    love with no strings attached.  But, you must let him know how it makes
    you feel, when he is disrespectful of your appointment and the meal,
    but it must be done without judgement, anger, etc.  You should read
    some of Gary Smalley's work on the use of word pictures to help people
    understand how their actions make you feel.  How can you have any kind
    of relationship if you do not give feed-back?  You cannot.  Any kind of
    relationship, friend, marriage, employee-boss, you need to give the
    feed back or you are going to be terribly unhappy.  Think about your
    relationship with the Lord if you could not pray.  You think that is
    ridiculous, but if you make it one-sided and cover the truth, it would
    be the same as worshiping the Lord without prayer! Again, when you go
    to God in hurt, anger, etc. you do not judge Him - you tell him how you
    feel - but how marvelous is prayer!
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl
    

    
    >Get a grip folks, I'm not that nasty.  And I guess I was wrong to
    >believe that anyone in here would know that.
    
   

Nope, I knew that.  And I think lots of others do too, Sis.


Sandy

    

>    >Get a grip folks, I'm not that nasty.  And I guess I was wrong to
>    >believe that anyone in here would know that.

Please don't cast [any][every]one in the same light.
Sandy is right.  Lots of other know that you are not that nasty,
including me.

Mark

    Thanks for the notes... and Mark you are right I was wrong to
    generalize my hurt.
    
    I apologize for saying it that way folks.. really.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy need not apologize for her noting - I see her love in every
    keystroke as do many others in this group.  Maybe our love for her,
    makes us try so hard that we need to apologize.  Your honor, we the
    members of the Jury in the case of Nancy Morales vs. Love that Hurts,
    find the defendant, "NOT GUILTY".
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl
    

    Case CLOSED !
    

    Thanks Daryl... for the offline note as well.
    
    Nancy

> Is an apology based on an untruth really an apology?

| No, I don't think so.  But this was not made clear that his apology was
| insincere.  And one must be careful with judging insincerity because it
| can be quite incorrect.

    You are right, I didn't make it clear... sorry.  As I stated, he
    covered up his error because it was too painful to admit he'd blown me
    off [the risk of my rejection was too high] for his daughter's visit.
    
    Now, what  he fails to recognize is that I understand how precious the
    time with Esther is... and he forgets I've *never* intruded on that
    time... and I mean *never*.  All it would have taken was a phone call
    and I would have understood the need... [as proven in my track-record].  
    
    So he covered up with an untruth... [as many of us do] because we are
    too proud a people to admit when we screw up.  [not a 100% of the time,
    but a lot]... myself included.
    
    
>"Blow things out of proportion."

    While this is true... it really wasn't the case here.  Though I'll be
    accounted for for letting emotion blow things out of proportion.
    
>Letting things go isn't always the same as forgiving (pardoning), because
>we both know it can resurface (whether someone else brings it up, or 
>it comes to mind because of some emotional trauma).  If left unforgiven,
>it is still "on account."  A legal pardon means the charge no longer is
>on account and cannot be used as future evidence.  Letting things go
>only tucks it away in the bank, and some people have hefty bank accounts
>upon which they draw when they need the currency.

    
    I guess there is a definition problem here... to me letting go means
    release, not holding on to it...doesn't mean storing it up.  However,
    is there anyone in the notesfile who can say that when they'be been
    wronged that when they've forgiven that wrong, that there memory NEVER
    comes back of that incident?
    
    You see that is God's job.. I believe that He and He only has the power
    of pardon [we can only forgive]... consequences to sin are his business
    not ours... are we again at terms impasse?  
    
    As a parent, I love and forgive my children there errors, but I don't
    not discipline them because I can forgive them.  Perhaps this is better
    an analogy to what I mean... the difference with adults is that God is
    the ultimate authority, not me.  Therefore, I forgive but God or the
    law in some cases, will rule about the pardon.
    
    
>Again, I'm sorry you've had this inconsideration against you (holidays are
>more often the culprits, anyway).  I don't like it when it happens to me,
>either, and when it does, I have to deal with it as well.

    Anybody ever heard of the movie the "Buttercream Gang" from Family
    Features.
    
    I saw this Sunday afternoon after the incident with a friend of mine...
    it had an incredible story about loving someone who doesn't want to be
    loved... very incredible.
    
    After seeing this movie, I knew that leaving the chair and being loving
    towards Rafael, though not accepting of an apology based on a lie,
    was/is the right thing to do.
    
    I guess the part that is still outstanding is what if he never
    confesses the truth?  
    
    Nancy 

    Brian and I are talking offline.
    
    :-)
    Nancy

	Nancy,

	I'm struggling a bit in a related area right now.  My father
	and my step-mother have shown over the last year that their
	children and grand-children are not a priority in their lives.

	Although it's been going on for years, now that I'm a mother,
	it's bothering me more and more.  When Emily was born, my parents
	did not come to see her.  They were away the day I delivered, but
	were back two days later.  Emily was 3.5 months old before my
	parents saw her for the first time.  They live 60 miles away.  My
	sister, who lives in the same town, saw me at least 5 times in those
	3.5 months.

	Then, before Jamie's second surgery, we did not hear from them at all.
	They called me the second day after his surgery, trying to make me
	feel guilty for not calling them to report the outcome (I couldn't
	bring myself to call, after they had expressed no concern prior
	to the operation).

	Last month, my step-mother called me the day before Emily's birthday
	party, to tell me they would not be attending, because they were 
	"wiped-out" (Right now, neither my father nor my step-mother is working).
	I was very angry when I got off the phone, and it took a lot for me not
	to respond in anger.  I also held back on calling back after I'd
	calmed down.

	Three weeks later, 3 of my neices and nephews celebrated birthdays
	with one big party.  Again, my parents didn't attend, though they
	confided in one sister that they might be there if it rained (because
	there wouldn't be much else for them to do).

	So, I've been working the whole situation over for a month or so now,
	trying to determine what action, if any, needs to take place.
	Andrew's response here has shown me some *definites* for my behavior.
	I do still struggle with how, if at all, we make clear to my
	parents the effects of their actions.  I know that at least one
	other sister is hurt by them, and another, though hurt, feels so
	indebted that she just ignores it.

	So far all I've done is this:  In the past, my sisters and I have
	gone to lengths to see that we can attend any gathering my parents
	hold at their home, because we so rarely see them, and know that
	we can't count on them to come see us.  At times, we have asked those
	people that are always there for us and always show they care (like
	my mother) to take a backseat.  Now, I have decided that those other
	people need to come first, especially if they contact us first.  I'm
	not slighting my parents, rather, I'm giving the consideration to
	those that deserve it.  I love my parents, and will continue to
	do so.  I'm praying that the Lord show me what he would have me
	do.  I'm also praying for a change in my parents - hey, I still
	believe in miracles!

	
	Karen

    Hi Karen,
    
    Boy can I relate to just about everything you've written... I too have
    a parent who is less then considerate with her time and/or money.  But
    it's my mother as you can tell by the gender reference.
    
    I've learned to tell my mother that her behavior hurts me and is
    unacceptable... but I let her own it.  And I'm always kind to her,
    unlike before I was saved, when at the drop of a hat, I'd hit her, kick
    her, swear at her and tell her I hated her. 
    
    Now, if I could only find that way to tell Rafael when his behavior
    hurts and its unacceptable and.... :-)
    
    Nancy

    Karen:
    
    Many face your problem, and I have been on both sides.  While I doubt
    that you have been responsible, please make certain that your parents
    feel that they can travel the 60 miles.  As people increase in age,
    they get less flexible and they are uncertain about leaving home.  My
    wife's father will not leave his home in South Carolina, for more than
    an hour or so.  Won't go anywhere.  We offered free plane tickets, a
    house sitter, etc. and he just could not work it in to his schedule. 
    This is a retired AF Colonel that has been everywhere on this planet,
    but now refuses to  travel.  We find the telephone doesn't ring often
    here in California, apparently the connection from SC is difficult, but
    we have found that it may be related to cost, so our fingers do the
    walking.
    
    When my  parents were alive, we always got together at their home, for
    birthdays, Christmas, New Years, etc. and I looked forward to that when
    I had grandchildren.  Well, I have three and we live about 200 miles
    apart - my grandchildren have visted twice and the oldest starts
    kindergarten in the fall - this is a disappointment to me, but my DEC
    wreck can find their house, so we see them anyway.  My oldest son, who
    is single, has visted three times in the last ten years, but we see
    each other where he lives, at his brothers, or sometimes at points in
    between.  Yes, we would love to have them come and see us, which they
    did for the first two years we lived here, just one-and-one/half blocks
    from the ocean and one of the best beaches in California.  A part of
    the reason, is the step-mother I know they do not love, but she is my
    wife.
    
    I guess what I am trying to say is to bend over backwards, try to
    understand, there may be hidden reasons for the behavior.  Make certain
    that you make an effort to keep them aware of what is going on, and
    don't hesitate to tell them how their actions make you  feel.  Not with
    judgement, anger or guilt, but just "Dad, it made me feel like I was
    totally alone in the dark,  when you didn't call about the surgery for 
    xxxx.  But, she's on the mend and will be home soon.  Both of us would 
    appreciate a card, if you can send one.  Would you like to talk to her now?"
    
    On the humorous side, my Mother lived many years alone, and died of
    Alzheimer's disease.  Before, she totally lost her grip on reality, she
    would call my secretary and say, "Tell him his Mother called.  The
    number is 916-489-1484".  I saw her every week, my wife took her to the
    store once each  week, and I called at least every three or four days,
    but obviously it wasn't as  frequently as she needed.
    
    I pray that your situation will improve.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl
    Just be open and honest, but never judgemental.  Remember we all seem
    to want to control others, but just being aware of that will help us
    not do it.  

	Thanks Daryl.

	FWIW, my father is 54 and my step-mother is 42.  They travel
	to Worcester (next to my town) frequently for Board meetings
	of two local colleges where my Dad is a trustee.  
	
	Also, my step-mother has revealed through converstaions with my
	sister that this really is a case of priorities ("We're still
	very young, and have a lot of things *we* like to do.  Besides,
	there seems to be a birthday party every other week.") (which, btw,
	they never attend).

	I do appreciate your inputs, and my sisters and I have tried to
	give every benefit of the doubt, but it keeps coming back to priorities.

	Karen

    What Daryl and Mark have written are excellent and hold much merit. 
    However, there are cases where selfishness exudes above, habitual
    behavior.  The question I'd ask is when all other potentials have been
    ruled out and you are left with the glaring pain of "I don't cause it
    ain't something I wanna do" in your face, what would *you* do?  The
    *you* is generic to everyone, but specifically to Mark and Daryl.
    
    This isn't a trick question, it's a part of familial [wd?]
    relationships.  This *does* exist it is not a figment of my emotional
    imagination.   And I, for one, am interested in knowing how others
    handle it?  Is it swept under the carpet, is it explosively discussed
    when you can't take it anymore, do you acknowledge it and just choose
    to ignore the pain of it?  What do you do?
    
    Nancy

    This type of action toward me and my family from relatives is something
    I expect.  I don't expect the "special treatment" I see other people
    recieve from their families.  So, I experience the pain, but I don't
    project it to those who are providing the experience to me.  If there
    are other feelings besides pain...hate, anger, etc., I ask God to
    forgive me and I pray for those who are the catalyst.  However, I am
    not perfect and will occasionally allow those family members to see my
    sadness.  I'm more of a crier than a yeller.  

Explosive confrontations will often bring out unknowns.  But leaving that
there, let's assume there are no unknown factors and the family member
has treated you like dirt.  Period.

What you have here is a relationship that has to change.  It is evident
that the other (offender) relative is willing to see you on his terms
alone and has little regard about your terms, except where they are
convenient to his own terms.  (Coincidental meeting of terms.)
This is an unhealthy relationship.

You have a few choices:

(1) continue, sweep it under and risk periodic explosions
(2) discontinue, break off communication
(3) state your terms, let him choose to change or discontinue the relationship

Stating your terms is really a negotiating process and not a list of demands.
If it is a list of demands only, then you're no better than he is.  However,
you both *do* have minimum expectations from a relationship and when these
expectations go unmet (whether mentioned or not), friction occurs.

You say, this is what I want: blah blah la la de dum de da
He says, this is what I want: blah blah de dum de la de do
You say, I need la la.
He says, I can only give la.  But I need do.
You say, I can't give do.

You both make a choice: how important is "la" and "do"?  These "needs"
will not be coming or giving.  If you can live without these, then you
can compromise:

"Okay, I learn to live with la.  Can you live without 'do'?"

If you can't compromise on some things then you must choose either (1) or
(2) above.

The negotiating process helps define what is expected of another in
a relationship.  If the definitions cannot be negotiated to an 
acceptable resolution, at least you both know why and where you
stand so you can move on.

Mark

	Thank Mark.

	I really feel that something needs to be communicated to my parents,
	but am holding off until I know that I can do so in a loving manner.
	It's difficult when communication has always been tough even on
	on non-touchy subjects.  Praying for the Lord to lead me every
	step of the way if and when the time comes.

	This note is really helping me work through some things, and is
	opening my eyes to areas where I, too, have failed, and need to 
	take steps to remedy certain things (Example: I hesitate to call
	my parents with either good or bad news, because their reaction
	has always been so strange.  I have decided that I will call, regardless
	of their reaction.  At least then, I am continually keeping the
	lines open.)

	Also, I think I'll call and invite my parents over for dinner
	in a few weeks.  They can always say no, but at least I will
	be reaching out to them.  I will keep my expectations to a minimum,
	so that I can be pleasantly surprised by getting more than expected.

	Thank you all, especially Nancy for starting this note!

	Karen

>	Also, I think I'll call and invite my parents over for dinner
>	in a few weeks.  They can always say no, but at least I will
>	be reaching out to them.  I will keep my expectations to a minimum,
>	so that I can be pleasantly surprised by getting more than expected.

Beautiful, Karen.

You know, I love my parents very much.  I have discovered that sometimes 
that people, including parents, have difficulty in noticing the many 
nuances of others, such as a child's need for attention.  We (I) get 
caught up in the many things that clamour for our attentions; important
things, and sometimes rightly more important than a visit to my home
(for example).

There was a time in my young married life (1979-1981 or so) where I wanted
nothing more than to hand my father a copy of Harry Chapin's "Cat's in the 
Cradle" to "wake him up."  I'm glad I didn't, even though it is how I felt
as third of four children, married, with one or two kids   What I didn't
understand about *my* father, at the time, were all the pressures he had
to deal with, whether real or just real to him.

As you indicate in .37, I had to deal with some things.  When I did, I
began to understand that changing the situation (if it could be changed)
would not occur by responding to my father in the way that *I perceived*
was his insensitivities (I'm sure he would have been baffled as to why
I would be treating him insensitively).  Instead, I began to relax in 
my own family, which was growing, and provide as many opportunities 
as I could to share with my parents, knowing that some could not (or 
would not) take place.  Also, I demonstrated love (outwardly) to my parents.

My parents grew up in homes where outward signs of affection were not readily
apparent (if at all).  They didn't know how!  But my wife's family knew how
and they converted me to overt signs of affection (though I'm still not
much of a hugger - I am significantly improved).  This has been translated
and older people can learn these things.  

I have to run.  In short, mom and dad are more aware of the value of their
family because (in part) of the value that the family (my brothers and I)
have placed on them and us.  They have changed - or perhaps I have - and
we're a lot closer, now.  I still don't see them as often as I used to, 
but we pick up the phone more often.

I called my dad one Sunday morning and told him I felt impressed to pray
for him.  But that's another story.  It was a wonderful time for the
two of us.

More later (maybe).

MM

    
    My Father is a devil.  He is an active and hateful atheist (he goes to
    the annual conventions even).  Though he provided for us materially as
    a family he was an unashamed philanderer having several long
    extra-marital relationships (which my sweet Mother knew all about
    always) which kept him physically absent most of the time.  He had six
    beautiful children whom he would not love and was quite strict and
    harsh with in most interactions.  He was almost a total failure as a
    Father and was a total failure as a husband.  My parents divorced 18
    years ago (after 25 years of marriage).
    
    All of the children hate him really (except me) but have that fear/respect
    or whatever it is that one has for their father which prevents
    confrontation and resolution of the past.  However, as a Christian and
    having experienced the forgiveness of Jesus, I have forgiven my father
    who Jesus died for as well.  I see my father as a man, not so much as a
    father. I know my father because I am much like him in several ways. 
    He does have some admirable talents.  I am the only one of the children
    that can have any sort of honest relationship with him, however
    shallow.  I am truthful with him and rather aggressive concerning my
    faith.  He persecutes me.  After Caroline's funeral back in his
    hometown he called my Mother for some reason and ultimately went on a
    hateful tirade about her and his children.  When he got to me he said
    something like "and Jeff, he's got his head up God's ass so far its
    sickening".  Of course I take this as a compliment.  And I will not
    retaliate (because he's correct!).
    
    At any rate, my point is that there is a way to love those that hurt
    us, especially our family members, and though fleshly efforts might be
    somewhat effective, the grace of God is best and most effective.  Only
    one of my Father's children prays for him - me.  Only one of my
    Father's children really cares at all about him - me.  Only one of my
    Father's children can remind him that there is a God and that judgement
    is sure to come - me.  It's all by the grace of God that I am in a
    position to do this.  It's not of this world.
    
    jeff 

    Jeff,
    
    Thanks for the note... really touched my heart.  And I could really
    understand the paradox, I saw "me and my mother" throughout your
    mesages with only a few twists and turns.
    
    I've presented the plan of salvation at least 3 times to my mother and
    asked her accept Christ and she always says, "Not, now."  I told her,
    "Mom, I've spent my whole life being separated from you.  I don't want
    eternity that way."  She says, "Not now."  And like you, though she has
    two other children, I am the only one who can present God to my mother.
    
    I pray that God sends someone else to her, too.  My father was a
    perverted man, but he was kind.  Strange, I know.. but a kinder soul
    never lived then my father.  And he died without Christ... that is the
    most significant hurt.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy, you always post the difficult notes.  What do you do, when all
    else fails?  First, make certain that ALL has failed, then communicate
    directly and then adopt one of the alternatives suggested by Mark.
    
    Making certain that ALL has failed means just that.  I am reminded of
    my first wife calling her parents about birthday presents for our kids. 
    My parents tended to be too generous and she felt that our kids were
    getting the wrong impression about her parents and gifts they might
    give.  She went to her Mother and Father and talked with them.  They
    said that they were doing the "best" that they could.  She said how
    about you tell me what you would like to spend, I'll get the gifts and
    wrap them and give them to the kids for you.  So instead of a pair of
    slippers, two weeks after his birthday, my son received a football, on
    his birthday, wrapped in NFL paper with a card signed by Grandma and
    Granpa Toombs.  A lot of extra work for us, but it started building a
    relationship that continued to grow until they died.  The kids never
    knew, except they recognized that they were getting things they wanted
    instead of things they wouldn't use, and then we did the same thing
    with calling Grandma and Grandpa if they couldn't be with us and
    letting the kids talk to them on their birthday - the kids didn't think
    about whose $.10 it was for the call, and guess what, Grandma and
    Grandpa liked being a part of the celebration, so they made a greater
    effort next time, to be a part of it.
    
    On a not so happy note, my brother's son and daughter-in-law decided
    that I was a shmuck.  My brother and I were close until his death, and
    his son and I used to play golf together and he was frequently in my
    home, I watched him at all his high school and college football and
    wrestling matches, etc.  I was a part of his wedding, which occurred
    after my brother died and things were good.  My wife died, I remarried
    and things started going badly.  I went to my nephew and asked what the
    problem was, you are making me feel that I am an outsider.  It hurts.
    His wife said I wasn't welcome in their home.  I invited my  nephew to
    play golf, he was too busy.  I tried again with an invitation to an
    exclusinve club and I did it at his office, and he came.  I asked why
    his wife thought I was a smuck.  He evaded it.  I invited them to many
    things, it got worse.  One day, I received a letter that broke my
    heart, telling me that they wanted nothing to do with me and how my
    actions had hurt them and the rest of their family.  I immediately
    telephoned, because we lived 400 miles apart at that time, they would
    not talk to me.  I prayed and prayed.  Then I sent a letter telling
    them simply that I was feeling terribly alone, missed their contact,
    but respected their wishes, and emphatically telling them that the
    "...latch chain was out..." should they change their hearts.  I closed
    with my sincere wish for them, that the Lord make his face to shine
    upon you and be gracious unto you...  The last time I saw them was when
    they brought suit against me over my Mother's estate.  I live  with the
    scar left by  their actions, but the "...latch chain is out..." .  I
    still pray for them, and I pray that my wife can forgive them, because
    she has not - other than that, they are no longer a part of our lives. 
    
    Yes, it can be painful, but Jesus gives us what we need - we just need
    to be certain that we used what He gave us.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl

    I wrote the next reply in this topic last night, during a very
    emotional outpour.  I deleted it because I don't want to discourage
    anyone who has found encouragement in my relationship with Rafael.
    
    I am putting it back in because I believe that encouragement can
    come through struggles and battles as well.  I don't wish to whitewash
    the struggles Rafael and I are having in our attempt to be loving
    towards one another... even the unloving and painful times.
    
    Today, after the turmoil, I can tell you the pain is still there, but
    the hope is still there as well.  
    
    I've given this relationship over the Lord.  
    Your prayers are most welcome, needed and answered. :-)
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy
    

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 180.42                 Love even when it Hurts?                    42 of 42
    JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 49 lines  1-MAY-1994 23:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I thought of this topic today.... no, let's be more accurate, I thought
    of this topic not less then 2 minutes ago...  
    
    Today after the most joyous morning, Rafael came crashing around my
    happiness...  He once again offered me the stars only to hand me a
    rock... how do *you* handle such insanity?
    
    He told me that as long as I continued going to church on Sunday night
    or Wednesday night, that he and I could never reconcile.  And then he
    began to blame my Pastor for destroying our marriage.  I couldn't even
    say a sentence.  My reaction to him saying that he and I couldn't
    reconcile because of my church going was fairly non-chalant [sp], you
    see, I'm used to him trying anything he can to control me.  This isn't
    leadership men.  Control and headship are two different things.
    
    I expressed hurt, but accepted this if he truly felt this way.  But I
    began to tell him that our cultures have clashed... his catholic, mine
    Baptist.  Real different set of worship services schedules.  Most
    catholics go once a week for an hour mass and then to confession at
    some point.  This 3 services a week is too much for him.. yet when he
    was drinking, going out to the bars was 5-6 nights a week.
    
    As I tried to explain the culture clash, he interrupted me... and so I
    let my voice get really strong and exclaimed, "Can I finish a sentence?"
    He kicked me out, told me to leave!
    
    What is wrong?  Father in Heaven, he not only hurt me, but he
    hurt our boys.... Clayton wept all the way home... arguing with his
    brother that Papa doesn't really love his Mom, cause if he did he
    wouldn't make her sad on her birthday.... :-(
    
    I have to agree with Clayton.....  But that doesn't relieve me of my
    responsibility to represent Christ to Rafael and I must remain loving,
    in order to win him.  I said no other word after he requested me to
    leave, I gathered  our belongings and we left.
    
    Now what?  What's next?  I don't know, but folks please pray, pray that
    the conviction that is causing Rafael to react so violently would
    continue to try and pierce that heart.. Lord, please don't let his
    heart be hardened.
    
    Right now, it hurts..., but tomorrow will come and as God has always
    been faithful to me in the past, I will allow God to carry this hurt
    and know that He hurts even more then I for every soul that rejects
    him, for every Christian who turns his back to Him and for every person
    whose heart aches as mine has ached.  
    
    Nancy
    
    

    
    Nancy, my heart aches for you and Rafael.  It seems that he sets these
    conditions because he wants to control, or because he is afraid of what
    the Lord will make him do.  Frequently, people will avoid that which is
    painful or "dangerous" in their eyes.  Much like you talked about your
    pastor avoiding temptations.  Maybe, Rafael is closer to being
    committed to our Lord than he wants to admit, or allow at this time.
    
    Once again, Our Sis Nancy, displays the beautiful love and wisdom of
    our Son Shining through her.  Keep it up Nancy, even as the pain sears
    your heart.  You know the Lord will touch and heal the ache.
    
    In His love,
    
    Daryl

re.43  Nancy,

I know this pain you refer to.

I can only pass this little word onto you, that has helped me through many
difficult circumstances...

God desires overcomers. Overcomers are created by circumstances. "My grace is
sufficient for you".


Regards,
Ace

    Nancy,
    
    		My heart honestly aches for your trial.  In these kinds of
    times I try to remember that its easier for that "mighty east wind" to
    blow an Oak tree down than it is to blow down a Willow tree.   I pray
    the dam will burst soon to relieve your hurt and suffering.  
    
    
    Dave 

    Rafael tonight semi-finalized his position of pushing me out of his
    life.  Instead of letting me keep the kids while he works the weekend,
    he asked his oldest son to spend the night and be with the kids.  
    
    He's also talking to Matthew about living with him...  
    
    Here it comes folks, he's now going to try and take the kids from me...

    Nancy,
    
    I'm so sorry you have to go through this.  I'll be praying for
    you, your kids and Rafael.
    
    In Him,
    Pam

Praying.

Praying.

Praying.

    Me too...

    It's just the beginning...
    
    He's saying things to Matthew to entice him.. he's already told Matthew
    he'd pay for the Christian school for him.
    
    It's incredible....  
    
    I don't know... Matthew is caught in the middle,he loves both of us and
    for Matthew to see his Dad simulate Christianity is a very powerful
    visual tool to use on him.
    
    The problem is I know the reason he wants Matthew to live with him is
    partly money.  He doesn't like paying child support and certainly
    doesn't like not having a deduction at the end of the year which costs
    him money in taxes.
    
    

    Nancy,

    I wept when I read this string! I weep with you.

    Father God, I lift before you my Precious Sister Nancy. Lord Jesus, in
    her time of trial, Lord Jesus, lift her in Your Mighty Hand.

    My Lord God, I pray that You will take control of this situation, heal
    the pain in Nancy's life - remove the threat to her children. Father
    God, You know how a mother feels about her children, You made mother's
    that way.

    Father God, I ask you to intervene in a Soverign manner, and I ask this
    in the Precious Name of Jesus.

    Jus so's people don't think Harry's off on this... I re-read this
    string tonight and it really got me down... down because exactly one
    year later I'm in the same spot as I was two notes ago.  
    
    I shared my emotions and concerns with the folks on IRC... Harry was
    there. Thanks for praying with me... and for me, Harry.
    
    Nancy

I read this whole string again.  Crying and praying, Nancy.

Does it ever get any easier?

Paul

Ever felt as though you were being watched?  You look over your shoulder, 
you have that eerie feeling in your stomach, but you just can't seem to find 
anything to substantiate yourself.  You then wonder if perhaps you are a tad 
paranoid, and dismiss all your intuition in the process.

Welllll, don't be so quick.  Unless you are a normal paranoid 
schizophrenic, its just possible your intuition is correct.  :-)

This past Saturday, I found tapes in my ex-husband's house where he had 
bugged my home.  I listened to 6 tapes in varied dates from April of '91 to 
just a few months ago.  Let me explain how I found these tapes.

Many weekends I spend at my ex-husband's house.  Though he and I are not on 
reconciliation terms, I've tried to give the boys the best of both of us.  
This includes spending weekends together as a family.  I cook breakfast for 
the family in the morning and Rafael cooks dinners.  Or we go fishing, to 
the flea market, bowling, roller skating, etc.  Sometimes its spent doing 
maintenance chores, i.e., housework, and laundry.  It's not every weekend, 
and unfortunately he and I usually end up on each other's nerves in some 
form or another... but we keep it to ourselves [most of the time] and enjoy 
our children... sort of osmosising. :-) 

Boy in typing this, I got a strong sense of sadness.  It's pretty terrible 
to get joy by osmosis... hmmm, have to do some more thinking on that one.

Anyway, this weekend I brought home work with me.  I was going to go fishing 
with the boys and Rafael, but it just didn't work out that way.  Actually 
the work got in the way.  Instead of going home, I decided to stay there, do 
the work, and when the boys got home to have a nice warm dinner prepared for 
them.

But back to this work I brought home.  I needed a stapler, where is a 
stapler?  I went into the kitchen, opened the utility drawer and in looking 
for a stapler, I unearthed these teeny, tiny tapes that had my name on them.  
I was rather curious so I took them out of the drawer.  In the same drawer, 
I found the handheld recorder/player in which these tapes fit.

Soon, I found myself in the middle of listening to events that had happened 
in MY home with my children, one-sided telephone conversations and lots of 
housework, pots and pans banging.  I've decided that the bug was placed or 
could still be [as I haven't checked] in one of my kitchen cabinets near my 
clock, for I hear the tick-tock quite clearly.  I only have one clock that 
tick-tocks. 

As I listened to these, I began to have such a sense of violation and 
an emotional reaction, that I was perplexed as to what to do or not to do 
about this.  I decided to take one of the tapes and record my own personal 
message to Rafael.  

It basically said that I felt extremely violated both in privacy and 
emotions.  That he had once again demonstrated to me that trust is an issue 
in our relationship which just can't seem to heal.  I recounted things in 
our relationship that had deeply wounded me, such as accusing me of having a 
miscarriage on purpose to ruin a vacation planned for Mexico, and then 
hitting me when I was pregnant with Clayton, etc... but that inspite of all 
these hurts, I've built him up in the eyes of our children, given him 
enormous reign over this family since he became sober and even thought 
perhaps a reconciliation was in order at one time.  But that on this tape 
that I was erasing, I had told him he had already lost.  He asked me what 
that was, and I said, "me."  "you've lost me".  I had forgotten saying that 
to him, it was only this past year.  But hearing the words again, only 
etched them in deeper than before.  I told him that I was extremely sad for 
him that the only real love he knows is that which is for his children.  

I left him with the hopes that he would tell me when he listened to this 
tape and that if he was angry that he'd not be harsh with me.  That all I 
want is peace in my life and to raise my children to be good men in this 
very confusing and difficult world.   

Several things have ensued as a result of finding these tapes.  One thing is 
that I've discovered that because of my childhood, I do not understand 
proper boundaries.  Finding these tapes did not send me reeling in his face, 
just extremely sad.  I never once questioned whether it was right or wrong 
what he did, just that what he did made me sad.  Several others with whom 
I've shared this have pointed out that this behavior breeches even the laws 
of this country.

Another thing is the knowledge of how important it is to choose the right 
partner for marriage!  Not that we can ever be SURE of anyone...but 
certainly we could try to train our children to approach marriage more 
cautiously.

Nancy

    

    :'(

Oh Nancy!

    Nancy,
    
    I don't even have to words to tell you how hurt and angry
    I am for you.  Here's a big {{{{{HUG}}}}} and I'll be 
    praying for you.
    
    Love,
    Your Sis in Him,
    Pam

	Bummer, Nancy. 

    
    	hugs, Nancy
    
    	How very sad, both for you, and for him.
    
    Karen
    

    Incredible.  I'm appalled and saddened by this, Nancy.
    
    -steve

   Oh Nancy, what a shock, disappointment, and hurt that must have been
   you!  Hugs & prayers.

   Leslie

    On another subject, but related to the title of this note, I'd like to
    bring up that awful topic of Spousal Abuse.
    
    I am not one who buys trash magazines or newspapers, but I must admit
    my curiousity [having been abused] led me to buy the Enquirer with
    Nicole Brown Simpson's diary.  The boys and I were eating while I was
    reading.  My reaction was visible to the boys as they asked me what was
    wrong.
    
    I read my story in her diary.  From her comparisons to the shoes in the
    living room to his abusiveness, to her sense of recognition that she
    was in a sick relationship, to her frustration at his not being
    involved with their children, but ready to go off with the boys all the
    time.
    
    As I read her diary, it shook me so badly, that I had not ever
    recognized how much I truly was abused... and still some sick part of
    me thinks that I caused the abuse.  I use words like, "He *only*
    did...", and "I argued with him", as though my arguing or disagreeing
    with him justified his hitting me.
    
    I see Rafael sober today, and he's doing very well with the kids, but
    he is still venting his anger at me.  He controls his violence because
    he KNOWS he'd go to jail and the boys would rebel against him.  
    
    Again, since my boundaries were crossed as a child, its very difficult
    for me to even now recognize abuse.  I'm only coming to realize how
    this has effected almost all of my relationships... including with my
    children.  It is probably likely to say that I've broken down some
    appropriate boundaries even in my own children.  I've not abused my
    children, but I'm so incredibly open with them, I wonder if I've not
    crossed the lines.  I don't know.... and this feels very frightening to
    realize.
    
    Thank God for His wisdom, the Bible.  In it I find guidelines that 
    help me overcome my ignorance.  But I am far from knowing the Bible the
    point of believing that I am okay.
    
    Nancy
    
    
    

    
    Oh, nancy!  I'm so happy for you.

 Praise God!

	Cool, Nancy!

You're making me cry again.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful......

Praise the Lord of Heaven for all He has done!

Paul

    2 Corinthians 5:14
    For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if
    one died for all, then were all dead:

    Nancy thats wonderful!  Thank you Lord for healing your children.
    
    if you guys keep this up today I'm going to run out of kleenex!
    

    No more notes like that, Ms. Morales!  I simply can't sit here and be
    manly with a tear or two welling up in my eyes.  8^) 

Gee, what does that make me?  Some of Nancy's notes have reduced me to a
sobbing puddle in my chair.  :-)

Paul

    Why, a girly-man, of course.  8^) (x100)
    
    [said in my best Arnold Swartzenegger voice]

>    Why, a girly-man, of course.  8^) (x100)
    
>    [said in my best Arnold Swartzenegger voice]

Okay, I'm going down a rathole here. Although I know Steve's remark was 
meant to funny or cute, Arnold's line is one that I think expresses very
powerfully all that is misogynistic. Unfortunately people have been so 
de-sensitized to that very fact. It basically says that certain attributes 
are feminine & that feminine attributes are bad, worthless, and/or
undesireable.

Leslie

    uh duh what is misogynistic????? 

miso - hate
gyn - women

    miso soup = hate water??? ha! :-)

    Okay... I'm sorry, but how does this represent womenhatred?  Who hates
    women?  Why are they hated?  Is it because it represents being "lesser
    than" a male?
    
    I'm confused about why there is a gender issue with this.  What I see
    it as is defining that men should be men and women should be women.  Is
    there something anti-christian about this?
    

hee hee - :-)

    	It's not Arnold's line.
    
    	It comes from the Hans and Franz skit from Saturday Night Live.

Its misogynist because it berates feminine qualities. Actually what it is
doing is insulting the recipient of the remark by comparing them to a
girl or woman. Wherever it comes from, it has always bothered me. I don't
think it is saying anything about keeping the roles of men and women distinct.

Leslie

    I agree with Nancy.  It only makes fun of feminine qualities in men. 
    It has nothing to do with feminine qualities in women.
    
    You could use the same thing to tease a woman with manly qualities.  A
    manly-girl, if you will.
    
    Mike

A man who can't cry is emotionally crippled.

It's a sad thing that a state of being crippled has been taught to most men
as being 'normal.'

Paul

    .83
    
     Amen Paul.   I understand your sensitivity Leslie.  I also believe
    that in today's society we are focusing on gender neutrality to the
    point of insult to God, the creator.  So I'm ultra sensitive to the
    other side.  
    
    

    RE: .83 & .84
    
    Amen.  God created male and female, and only in appreciating both
    equally (NOT the same in terms of gender) do we glimpse the Creator.
    
    The neutering of God is an abomination in the spirit of Antichrist. 
    Male and female qualities must be considered together by those seriously
    desiring to know God.  Neither gender bias nor bias against gender is
    from God.
    
    Was Jesus less a man because He wept, because He was moved with
    compassion, because He seemed more intuitive than analytical (depending
    on His audience), because He likened Himself to a hen gathering her
    chickens?  God forbid!  Rather He was fully God.
    
    /Wayne

    
    Good point Wayne!  I think what has happened is that today's "manly"
    traits have been defined incorrectly.  If we look at Jesus he certainly
    demonstrated an emotional side which should be an example to all men
    who feel threatened by their emotions.

    
    	Nancy,
    
    	That is such *tremendous* news!  Praise God!
    
    

That's wonderful news Nancy!


\C

    My mother-in-law, Maria Gonzales Morales passed away on Wednesday, July
    10th, 1996,  in the home of her daughter.  She died from old age, she
    was 96.  Her daughter, Delia had cared for her bedridden mother for
    over 10 years.  
    
    The circumstances surrounding my accompanying Rafael to Mexico are
    still astounding to me.  When Rafael called me asking me to go with
    him, my inner voice said go, but my mind resisted because of my current
    work environment.  I responded to Rafael I could only go if I could
    speak to my boss, Julie.  And I couldn't speak to her because she was
    in Yosemite on vacation.  At that very moment, the other line on my
    work phone began to ring.  It was Julie.  I was so shocked at hearing
    her voice and tears began to fill my eyes as I realized how God's hand
    is ever-so-present in our lives.  Of course, she told me to go.
    
    I then was told that not only was I and my children going, but also
    Rafael's first wife and their two children.  I was uncomfortable with
    this situation because Rafael had not told his children that he and I
    were reconciling.  I was also uncomfortable because I knew Vicky, his
    ex-wife [who is also his 3rd cousin] had always felt unkind towards me. 
    When he told her that I was going, she said she didn't care.  When he
    told me she was going, I was concerned for his family and their shock
    at having their brother and his 2 wives and 4 children in tow.
    
    I also felt uncomfortable because I don't speak the language that well
    and therefore by virtue of communication [not just that I'm whiter than
    a bedsheet as well], I would be the odd one.
    
    We all gathered at Rafael's house on Saturday a.m. to catch a van to
    the San Francisco airport.  It was awkward, but Vicky was really kind
    to my kids and this goes along way for me of course.  But then again
    after all in Mexico she is considered their aunt.    But inside of me I
    was totally at peace because I knew God wanted me there and it was only
    this knowledge that kept me.
    
    The airline had Vicky and I sitting next to each other on the plane. 
    Oh there was an aisle between us, but let's be real for over 17 years
    there had been a city and an entirely different life between us, the
    aisle seemed as though we were on each other's lap.
    
    We spoke and I began to share with her a bit about me personally; about
    my mother and her visit last summer; about the abuse in my life and the
    forgiveness that God gave me to heal my heart and I could see in her
    eyes her heart breaking.
    
    We got off the airplane and to our surprise Rafael's brother and nephew
    were there to greet us.  Rafael's brother is 63 years old and his
    nephew 42 years old.  They were visibly shocked at seeing both Vicky
    and I, but hugged us both affectionately. I am still at this point
    wondering why God wanted me on this trip.  
    
    We drove from Mazatlan to Concordia arriving at the very moment the
    funeral procession was on its way to the church.  It had to be 104
    degrees.  Rafael's sister was visibly weak and crying.  I knew
    immediately that she was feeling partially responsible for her mother's
    death.  It was her hands that cared for her mother like she was a
    newborn baby.  She fed her mother with a bottle, she changed her
    diapers and bathed her body while she was still in bed.  Her sister
    looked at me like I was not a welcome sight.  I once again wondered why
    God wanted me there.
    
    After the church service, the town walked to the grave yard where she
    was buried.  At the graveyard they opened the casket for anyone who
    wanted to see her one last time and then they put her in the ground. 
    While in the cemetary, Rafael's brother's wife [not the one at the
    airport], began asking me questions about Vicky.  And saying things
    like Rafael came into town with me on one arm and Vicky on the other. 
    She asked me if Vicky and I were "amigas."  I once again wondered why
    God wanted me there.
    
    Rafael's sister, Delia and I had not gotten a moment to greet one
    another beyond the initial acknowledgement of each other's presence.  I
    knew she was wary of me because of the divorce [family loyalty you
    know].  Finally, I had a chance to get a moment alone with her to give
    her a gift that I had bought her before I left.  While there I told her
    that I understood her grief and how she feels responsible.  I then told
    her that I also knew these next few weeks would be hard for her because
    her hands would be empty of the one she had loved.  She cried on my
    shoulder and affirmed that I had spoken her heart.  It was funny
    because Rafael had told me to talk to her about "us" as she had some
    wisdom, but I couldn't it just didn't seem appropriate.
    
    I told Rafael of our conversation and he was surprised.  I told him
    that she would need attention after this, for the family to not forget
    her now that their mother was gone. Delia told me that her husband had
    not spoken to her for 7 months due to a misunderstanding between them.
    
    The following day Vicky and Rafael's son also named Rafael, left for
    San Francisco.  That morning Rafael had told his son that he had
    brought extra t-shirts and underwear if he needed any [we all left in
    haste] and his son snapped at him.  At this point, Rafael reacted and
    then Vicky stepped in and began telling Rafael that if he didn't treat
    his 30 year old son like a child, he wouldn't respond to him that way.
    And Rafael looked at Vicky piercingly and told her he didn't want
    nothing from her; that he was here for his mother and that he didn't
    want any situations escalated [but he was very escalated himself]. I
    shrunk into a corner and wondered why God wanted me here.
    
    
     
    
    
    
    
    

    Vicky and I had an opportunity to speak intimately one more time before
    she left.  I told her that she was a beautiful woman who was a quality
    person and that she didn't deserve the abuse she suffered in her life. 
    As she left I told her that it was very nice to have talked with her. 
    I could see her stonewalling her emotions but I knew I had touched her
    deeply.
    
    That day Rafael's nephew, Pio [the one that met us at the airport],
    invited me to go for a ride into the hills as a diversion.  I agreed to
    go with Rafael's prompting.  When I got into the car with him he showed
    me a booklet written in Spanish by Kenneth Hagin and asked me if I knew
    anything about him.  I almost choked on my words in Spanish.  I asked
    for the Lord to give me the gift of tongues and from that discussion I
    discovered that Pio, his wife and children had converted from
    Catholicism to Christianity.  I couldn't have been more excited.  As we
    began to share about the things of God, I just plain got excited. 
    Then, I felt the Holy Spirit lead me to tell Pio the truth about
    Rafael's drinking, our divorce and why we were reconciling.  When I
    told him about how I felt God told me to reconcile with Rafael, he told
    me that he felt the Holy Spirit upon my words.  He then began to tell
    me of a situacion with his wife.  I didn't understand what the problem
    was and thought he said it was with her family, but wasn't really sure. 
    But the Lord led me to tell him that I didn't love Rafael romantically. 
    That when God told me to go back to Rafael that I argued with God over
    the decision.  But God assured me that he would pour His love into me
    which would be pure and it was only this love that would endure in
    relationships.  That romantic love doesn't last and men have the
    hardest time understanding this during the child rearing years.  A
    woman's natural tendency is to neglect the husband and tend to the
    children.  The man is still looking for the sexy, sweet thing he
    married and now her body is different after childbirth and her attitude
    is different.  Romantic love can return after the children have grown,
    but it will not naturally be a part of "family" life.  I told him that
    I could only survive in any relationship through the pure love of God
    that endures all things.  I then told him that about how I came to be
    there in Mexico and I didn't know why God wanted me there, but I knew
    He wanted me there.  Pio was stoic but near tears.  He told me that I
    had beautiful words and he thanked me for all that I had said.
    
    As Rafael and I were leaving Mexico to come home on Saturday evening,
    he asked me if Pio had talked to me about his situation.  I told him
    yes, but I didn't completely understand it all.  Rafael then told me
    that Pio had fallen in love with another woman.  He also told Pio that
    he had better stay with the first family because of the long term
    results of divorce.  And he told Pio that when he looks into his
    children's eyes he suffers because they suffer.  He also told Pio that
    romance is what you make of it.  It was at that moment, I knew why I
    was supposed to go to Mexico.  All those things I told Pio flowed from
    me without me knowing his situation.  It was then I understand why when
    he and his family left us he whispered in my ear, "Thank you again for
    your words of life."
    
    I told Rafael what had happened and the things I had told Pio about us. 
    I also told Pio that if he were to look hard into Rafael's son's eyes
    he would see death.  There was no light, just pain in that young man's
    soul.  
    
    God is amazing!
    
    Finally, some other things that happened was that Rafael and I had a
    chance to talk about the situation with Vicky and his feelings for her. 
    I was surprised to here him say that he had a lot more feelings for me
    than he ever had for her.  He also said that I was his happiness, since
    the day he met me, I brought him joy inside.  I cannot tell you how
    surprised I was about that and yes pleased.  I also realized that my
    husband is an extremely sensitive man.  I think I always knew this, but
    he puts up such a rough exterior that its hard to see.
    
    So much more happened on this trip, i.e., with Esther [Rafael's
    daughter] and my sister-in-law who was mouthy at the cemetary. 
    Rafael's older brother, etc.  But I know that God wanted me there for
    all these reasons.  It seems that when I look back, I was the role of
    peacemaker during this trip.  I became the eyes and ears of the unseen,
    because of the gift from God of the Holy Spirit.
    
    I'm back and I'm ever more in love with Rafael...
    
    Nancy
    
    
    

    .91
    
    Uhm Dick, you misunderstood the account.  I never talked about
    conversion from Catholicism, Pio did. :-)  He asked me my opinion of a
    protestant author and I gave it to him.
    
    Rafael has not converted FROM catholicism.  This USED to be a goal of
    mine, but after having spoken to several catholic believers [i.e., in
    the saving grace of Jesus without works], I no longer find this to be
    necessary.  What is MORE necessary is that some beliefs i.e., we can
    only hope if God is merciful, that maybe if we-say-enough-hail-mary's
    and-do-pennance-here-on-earth, then-perhaps-we-might-get-into-heaven
    theology.
    
    For some catholics this revelation that God has assured us of salvation
    and that there is nothing we can do to earn it, will cause them to
    leave the catholic church, others it won't.
    
    One of the most curious things that I discovered while in this very
    small town is that not too many years ago they had a priest who read
    in the Bible about graven images and took down every saint in the
    church including Mary and Jesus statues.   We had quite a discussion
    around this, however, I didn't bring up the subject.  Rafael's older
    brother did and he claimed that he was one of the ONLY supporters of
    the Priest.
    
    God works through people when they are seeking him no matter what
    "category" you wish to put yourself in.
    
    Nancy
    

    Ah, so it's a case of "convert zeal".  It's still a counterproductive
    thing to say (regardless of whatever truth it may have).
    
    What's curious about your statements about "earning salvation" is that
    (I think) their official position is precisely that you can't "earn
    salvation".  Don't know where people get that idea;  perhaps
    misunderstanding that famous quote from the Epistle of James?
    
    Dick

    .93
    
    Perhaps.  One other thing that was sad to me was the belief that by
    performing the "Novena" [sp?], they felt their prayers would carry
    Rafael's mother's soul to heaven [again if God was merciful].  I
    respected their belief and was present at all the novena's for the 9
    day grieving period [save 1], but I didn't participate in the words of
    the prayers, I basically prayed for the comfort and peace of Rafael's
    family.
    
    Nancy
    

Nancy,

Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences.  Although I've
never met you nor communicated directly with you, reading your notes 
makes me feel as though you are some sort of long lost friend.  Your 
sensitivity towards those around you, combined with the beauty of your 
words, your love for life and for the Lord, come together to convey a 
message of eternal hope and sharing that only could come from the Holy 
Spirit. 

You have a talent that would be appreciated far beyond the "walls" of 
this notes conference.  When I think of all the unnecessary fiction that 
people consume these days, your story in your words shared from your heart 
would bring so much light into people's otherwise dark and lonely 
worlds.  Your ability to see the Lord work through you is a reminder to all 
of us that He uses us in other people's lives, and that we must learn to not 
focus only on ourselves.  I hope someday you'll considering publishing some 
of this.

Thank you so much for letting all of us be part of your experiences and 
for sharing your innermost thoughts with us.

    .95
    
    Thank you very much chowda::orr [wish I knew your first name]. :-)
    
    It is somewhat amazing to me how many people have mentioned publishing
    my writings.  This is a matter for which to bring to the Lord though. 
    
    The Bible tells us to encourage one another and I thank you again for
    having done so for me.
    
    Nancy