Conference yukon::christian_v7

    G'day all...
    
    We sung this at church last night; awesome!  The words _seem_ plain,
    but the instrumentation, rhythm and chord progression are really
    something.
    
    _Agnus Dei_
    Written by Michael W. Smith
    
    Alleluia Alleluia
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns
    Alleluia Alleluia
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns
    Alleluia 
    
    Holy Holy
    Are You Lord God Almighty
    Worthy is the Lamb
    Worthy is the Lamb
    You are Holy
    Holy
    Are You Lord God Almighty
    Worthy is the Lamb
    Worthy is the Lamb
    Amen    
    
    (I'd vote for non-capitalisation of most of these words; it makes it
    easier to type that way... james ;-)  )

One of my favourites is sung in a round, and it is even simpler. I think it's 
called Ruark (?)

Spirit, 
Spirit, 
Spirit of God
Not by Might or Power,
But by the Spirit of God.


Chele

    
    
    Good Day Everyone -
    
    re .13534 - Angus Dei is an Awesome song!!  Good tunes...I like
    churches who aren't afraid to use popular music - it can minister
    just as much as the old hymns.
    
    Well....I think we found a house!  We're going back for a second
    look tonight...it feels "right".  Through a series of events (which
    are too long to recount here) we really feel God opened the door to
    us on this one....we will see for sure if the sellers accept our 
    offer!  Your continued prayers are welcome and appreciated!
    
    Have a good one!
    
    K

    
    
    re: last note title
    
    We sang that song at church yesterday - "Our God is an Awesome God"
    (by Rich Mullins)
    
    k
    

 I kinda like singing the old hymns, m'self.  I've never felt comfortable
 singing more contemporary tunes in church for some reason. 




 Jim

    I like them both.
    
    The newer ones are easier to play on the guitar, tho.
    
    :-)
    
    HiR!
    p

RE:                    <<< Note 14.13544 by RICKS::PSHERWOOD >>>

       
   > The newer ones are easier to play on the guitar, tho.
    
    

     Yes, you have a point there ;-)




 Jim

    Hymns vs Choruses.
    
    I'm amazed at the conflict this causes.  The church we attend now lost
    about 50 members of about 350 when they started singing choruses in
    addition to hymns about 6 years ago.
    
    I love both, but think the choruses are very important.  I know many
    times when I start to think of something I shouldn't I get one of these
    choruses out of the blue running through my head, and most of the time,
    I wish I could say all the time, I would realize what I was doing and
    stop.
    
    While I've memorized scripture, and some people say they have verses
    run through their mind whey they are contemplating sin, I don't I have
    the choruses, of which many are scripture.
    
    We still do both BTW.
    
    Sparky

    Sparky,
    
    Martin Luther wrote songs specifically for that purpose.  The people
    were generally illiterate and the Bible was not availableto the masses
    so Martin Luther used songs to impress scripture on their hearts. 
    Works for me, too.
    
    Kent
    

RE:       <<< Note 14.13547 by 24004::SPARKS "I have just what you need" >>>
                                -< I need both >-

   > Hymns vs Choruses.
    
   > I'm amazed at the conflict this causes.  The church we attend now lost
   > about 50 members of about 350 when they started singing choruses in
   > addition to hymns about 6 years ago.
    
    
     We'll sing choruses occasionally, usually Sunday night or Wednesday
     night.  For me I just happen to love the old hymns..I'll sing along with
     more contemporary music at home or when I'm driving.  

     I did leave a church last year and singing choruses on Sunday morning 
     was one of many reaons.


     Jim

    I like singing them both - the choruses tend to be simpler and more
    likely to be a scripture quotation, while the hymns have deeper
    meanings with lyrics that aren't always straight quotes, but explain
    scripture and expand on things... I'm moved by both, and as long as
    both are sung with the right attitude, I see no reason to not sing
    both, but I don't always see real clearly... ("What tre-*whap*")
    
    :-)
    
    some of my favorate CD's are the scripture memory songs series.
    "God's Love" is my current favorate from the series...
    
    HiR! == He is RISEN!
    (I got tired of typing it all the way out... :-)
    p

    Hi all,
    
    I like singing both traditional hymns and modern praise choruses.    
    
    I wonder if there was a similiar re-action within certain churches when
    Isaac Watts hymns were fresh off the press :-).
    
    I heard Martin Luther even set some of his songs to the tunes of
    popular beer drinking songs of his day :-).
    
    In Him,
    
    Graham
    

Our church has had some of the "hymns vs. choruses" problem too.  I've had
some difficulty figuring out why it is a "problem"

I mean, what's the essential difference?  What makes one thing a "hymn" and
another thing a "chorus?," and why is one "better" than another?

We sing both, and we have people in our church on both sides, though both
have mostly learned to cope with one another.  But some people have this
sense that "hymns" are good, and "choruses" are bad, and others have the
reverse.

What makes a hymn a hymn?  Is it just that it is old?  What makes a chorus a
chorus.  Is it just that it is new?

There's definitely some sense among the more charismatic movement that hymns
are old and dry and less "spiritual."  But if you listen to the words, MANY,
MANY of the old hymns, I'd venture to say most, have beautiful words,
uplifting words, spirit filled words.  Many of them have beautiful music as
well.

Many of the 'choruses' are beautiful too.  Why isn't any music that glorifies
the Lord a good thing?

Does this tangent deserve its own note string?

Paul

P.S. Speaking of scripture being the basis of song, I've really been blessed
over the past year by the Scripture Memory series from Integrity music.  It's
just words of scripture set to music, grouped by topic.  The music is quality
music too, with a good variety, ranging from softly contemplative to rockin'
to raggae and more.  I think it's some of the best christian music to come
out in years.  They have nearly 20 of them out, we currently have God's
Grace, Praise, God's Love, Spiritual Warfare, Encouragement, Renewing your
Mind, Overcoming Guilt, Overcoming Anxiety, and Healing.  I'd reccommend
God's Grace to start - nearly every song on that one is excellent.

    I think it (hymn vs chorus) is a lot like how some people prefer the
    liturgical service and others prefer non-liturgical - it is more of a
    tradition and personal preference IMO.
    to me, I used to call a hymn anything in a hymnbook, but now the new
    Baptist hymnal (SBC) has things I would call choruses under the old
    definition in it... :-)
    
    I thought I heard (read) that you could get the Scripture Memory Songs
    series like a magazine subscription, does anyone know anything about
    it?
    
    I agree with Paul about the quality of the music...

    
    
    I didn't mean to start a debate on "hymns vs. choruses"....just
    made an observation.  I think there are appropriate times for both.
    
    I'm with Paul on this one...I never understood people making a 
    big deal out of this.  Like he said, both types of music give 
    glory to God and that's what it's all about.
    
    I've never been a big Twila Paris fan, but her last release
    "Beyond a Dream" has really grown on me.  There's a song on there that 
    talks about letting all the petty things get to us and it's our
    response to them that really matters.  There's a line that goes -
    
    "no matter what it's all about, it's all about You"
    
    That says it all, doesn't it? 
    
    K
    
    

 I don't think there's a good verses bad problem here (at least not
 in my opinion).  Perhaps its a matter of preference.  I feel uncomfortable
 singing choruses in a Sunday morning worship service.  I'll confess the only
 experience I had was in a church I attended briefly last year.  The service
 began with lyrics to choruses projected onto a wall and a guy leading us
 in signing and hand clapping, etc..for me, it was uncomfortable.  For others
 it was just fine..no problem.  Other things popped up that added to my 
 decision to seek another church.




 Jim

RE:<<< Note 14.13556 by EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for His security-GAIN both" >>>


>> The service
>> began with lyrics to choruses projected onto a wall and a guy leading us
>> in signing and hand clapping, etc..for me, it was uncomfortable.  For 
>> others it was just fine..no problem.  Other things popped up that added to
>> my decision to seek another church.

>Just curious for clarity, Jim, what was it specifically that made you
>uncomfortable?  Was it the words projected on the wall, or was it the person
>leading, or was it the chorus itself?


 Yes :-)  Seemed too informal to me.



 Jim

    Here's a question for you trivia fans.  What's the difference between
    psalms and hymns (scripturally, of course)?
    
    I'll post the answer later if nobody gets it.
    
    Kent
    

 One's a book in the Bible and the other isn't? :-)

>What makes a hymn a hymn?  Is it just that it is old?  What makes a chorus a
>chorus.  Is it just that it is new?
 
Well, if you must know....  splash.

The difference between a hymn and a song is the focus.  A hymn is directed to
the Majesty of God, and song is a testimony of God's grace in our lives.
Sometimes, there is room for cross-over.

Example of a Hymn:  A Mighty Fortress is Our God
  Focus is on Who God is
  "A mighty fortres is our God...God's truth abideth still, His kingdom is
   forever."
Example of a Song:  Victory in Jesus  
  Focus is on what Jesus has done for *me*
  "I heard an old, old story... Victory in Jesus, my Savior...  He sought me."

And now for Choruses:  
  Choruses are less formal arrangements of either type above.  They are
largely simple for the purpose of easy memorization.  We all know about
a hundred and fifty TV and radio commercial ditties because of the catchy
tunes.  ("Dunkin' Donuts: it's worth the Trip" "Food, Folks, and Fun"
"We're the one for you, New England: New England Telephone"  "Chock full 
of Nuts is the heavenly coffee.")
  We have all learned Amazing Grace by heart.  And many of us know "Just a I
am" by heart, too.  Choruses are simply made for easy rememberance, which is
why the words aren't often too complicated.

  "I love you Lord, and I lift my voice to worship You,
   O my soul, rejoice!
   Take joy my King in what You hear;
   May it be a sweet, sweet sound in your ear."
 [end of chorus, short, sweet, memorable]

Can you recite the four verses to "Come Thou Almighty King" or "Holy, Holy,
Holy! Lord God Almighty"?  I can probably do one or two of each, and 
pieces of the other verses but I've been around the block a few times with
these excellent hymns.

My preference is also for the hymns (and songs) over choruses because the
CONTENT is generally a bit more robust.  There are some choruses I love
because the content is there, too:  "He's Able!"

But all in all, in regards to music program in church, the best policy is
to "offend everyone equally" because you will never please everyone.

Mark

	"Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.  Sing 
	 and make music in your heart to the LORD, always giving thanks to 
	 God the Father for everything in the Name of our LORD Jesus Christ."

								Ephesians 5:19

A few years back my church brought out a supplement to the hymnbook in 
normal use, which was divided into 3 sections, as 'psalms', 'hymns' and 
'spiritual songs'.

Psalms were easily defined as the set of 150.

However as  far as the other two sections go, I've found that the
'hymns' section contains generally older hymns, which fall into a 
'comfortable' statement of doctrine and experience.  Many of these I feel 
to be too church focused, and not enough God-focused.

The 'spiritual songs' section contains a mixture.  Some of the entries are
old choruses - usually very simple, single-stanza statements of faith,
experience or Biblical events, most commonly used in children's meetings. 

Others in this section are intensive worship songs - not at all the
children's rouser - where meditation brings the glory of the LORD very
close. 

It's the last type that I find some people find threatening, because they
can dig rather deep, walking through barriers which it takes a lot of
melting from the LORD to erode...  I find healing power where they are sung 
with the LORD in mind.

							Andrew

    Well, I guess this is where it belongs now.  While I was typing away
    over in 14.? it got write locked.
    
    I don't think I'll be in here much the rest of the day so I'll go ahead
    and put this in.
    
    If we look at the the Hebrew words which are translated 'praise' we see
    that there are seven.  Sometimes these may also be translated
    thanksgiving.
    
    	Yadah - to wave the hands
    	Towdah - to raise the hands
    	Barak - to kneel
    	Tehillah - to sing a hymn
    	Zamar - to sing a psalm
    	Shabach - to shout
    	Halal - to make a show (this might include dancing such as David
    		did when the Ark was returned to Zion)
    
    The difference between Tehillah and Zamar is that a psalm (zamar) is
    accompanied by musical instruments and a hymn (tehillah) is not.  Makes
    me wonder if we should be singing out of a Psalmnal. :-)
    
    Kent

>    The difference between Tehillah and Zamar is that a psalm (zamar) is
>    accompanied by musical instruments and a hymn (tehillah) is not.  Makes
>    me wonder if we should be singing out of a Psalmnal. :-)

I see by the links that Tony Balsamo occasionally still reads in here.
He may agree with you.  (The Boston Church of Christ, now known as the
International Church of Christ, doesn't use instruments (last I heard)
when they sing their [generic term ->] songs.)

:-)

Mark

    Mark,
    
    Clue me in on this International Church of Christ.  I'm familiar with
    the CoC doctrine that involves accapella singing in church...(Simply
    stated, if it ain't in the New Testament we ain't gonna do it) but
    when you link the Hebrew definitions of the words with the Greek forms
    of the verbs you get instruments in the NT. 
    
    Kent
    

>Clue me in on this International Church of Christ.

ICC (formerly BCC) is an offshoot of the CoC.  The CoC disowned the ICC,
but they don't care (by their literature which grieves that the CoC 
didn't want to pay the price for being the true church).

>if it ain't in the New Testament we ain't gonna do it

Pretty close.  One of ICC's themes is being a "First Century Church"
and is almost "if it ain't in Acts, then...."

*Much* of their doctrine is sound enough.  They are an "exclusive" organization
(do it their way, if not *in* their way, or you're gonna fry) and hold that
the act of baptism is part of what actually saves you (according to Acts 2:38
which is a lynch-pin verse which we've expended literally thousands of note
replies on in past incarnations of this conference).  Some day, the ICC may
soften its view on other Christian organizations; I mean, there was a time
that the Catholic church condemned all outsiders to perdition (at least,
that's how I understood it).  And they don't now, so there is hope.

There's more but that's enough of a synopsis, I think.

Mark

    I love so many of the hymns and songs - too many to list - and I LOVE
    Christmas carols (I collect them - I'm weird like that :-))
    
    I remember when our Church services moved from being almost entirely
    hymn-based to at least half songs and there was a lot of resistance at
    first, which I thought was such a shame. Both glorify God - both can be
    so beautiful. I remember once hearing Old Hundredth (All People That On
    Earth Do Dwell) at the old Town Hall in Reading during the Primary
    schools festival that I was taking part in (I was 9). The Town Hall has
    a magnificent pipe organ and it filled the whole Hall - I can hear it
    now. Similarly I've been told by my minister that the nearest thing
    she's heard to what Heaven must be like is the boys' singing at a
    Church in Windsor - think it's St. George's chapel. I keep meaning to
    go and hear for myself.
    
    My own favourite (of favourites) is this one:
    
    God forgave my sin in Jesus' name
    I've been born again in Jesus' name 
    And in Jesus' name I come to you
    To share His Love as He told me to.
    
    Chorus:
    He said "Freely, freely you have believed,
    Freely, freely give.
    Go in My Name and, because you believe,
    Others will know that I live."
    
    There is another verse but I can't remember it offhand. I think the
    beauty is in the simplicity of the song and its message.

    
    
    re:  hymns vs. choruses.  A lot of the "issue" is one of preference. 
    But, candidly, there are some musical issues for some persons, like
    myself.  A lot of the "modern" stuff is musical garbage regardless of
    what it says or the intent of the composer.  
      
        GJD

    I agree that it's a matter of preference, but think, where a
    difference of opinion arises, we need to compromise and have both 
    hymns AND choruses. There are some hymns and choruses that grate on 
    my nerves, but we're playing and singing them to GOD, not to me! 
    

    
    
    I just happen to think that God loves counterpoint and 12 part harmony
    more than he loves drums and guitars...  8-)
    
               GJD

    What is *really* music to God's ears:
    
    "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even  the Father
    of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 15:6 )
    

>    I just happen to think that God loves counterpoint and 12 part harmony
>   more than he loves drums and guitars...  8-)

I don't think He gives two hoots about either.  I think He loves a heart that
pours itself out in love of Him and opens to His touch.  

The most musically awesome choral symphony, performed majestically, is the
sound of cats fighting or fingernails on a blackboard to Him if it is done
for the sake of the music and not to offer ourselves to Him. 

Three guitars poorly picking out a 'garbage' melody, all tuned a half-note
apart, with people offering their off-key, scratchy, whiney voices to Him -
but infused and immersed with the Love of the Lord, is quite literally music
to His ears.

There is one, and only one, point to using music in worship - to help us open
our hearts to the Lord.  It is true that some types of music do that more
effectively and more easily than other types, and it is true that the type of
music that does that is different for different people.  But the measuring
scale of what honors the Lord is how the music opens our hearts, and has
absolutely nothing to do with the music itself.

Paul

    re .29
    
    You don't like Stryper, then (Christian heavy metal band)? :-)
    
    I'm currently studying Handel's "Messiah" as part of my Arts degree
    course, and I think I know what you mean. The sound is awesome (and I
    mean that in the true sense of the word). I'm reminded of the greatness
    of God every time I hear it.

    
    
    Heavens -- don't you folks know what 8-)'s mean?  Get a grip!
    
    I've been in one of the finest choruses in the world -- the Chicago
    Symphony Chorus and have performed some of the classic pieces of the
    choral rep. conducted by some of the world's most famous conductors. 
    Technically, they were amazing experiences.  I learned more about
    singing (in general, not just choral) from Margaret Hillis in the two
    years I was in the chorus than from all of my previous years of private
    voice study.  Still, my heart often sores when my small, technically
    mediocre church choir sings with its heart.  
    
    For me, personally, as a listener not as a participant, it doesn't
    matter how much your "heart is in it" -- if it's being sung flat the
    message is lost on me -- the curse of a good ear.
    
          GJD

    I know - I remember singing "What a friend we have in Jesus" with the
    lady behind me almost a half tone flat. It's ruined the song for me
    ever since.

Sorry.  I didn't mean for you to take that personally.

Can you tell that I've dealt with people who really do believe that
(hymns|choruses) do not honor God as much as (choruses|hymns)?  There are
lots of people out there, in each category.

Paul

    Do a self check - if someone with "heart" turns you off, or sounds
    discordant, or isn't as good as...  It would necessarily follow, that
    the only really good preachers are those that have great voices, delivery,
    eloquition, grammer, etc.  Some of the best messages I have ever heard
    came from twangy, nasal delivery, poor grammer and diction, but it came
    from the Bible delivered with a loving heart.  Some of the greatest
    music I have ever heard was performed by the massed childrens' groups
    on Christmas Eve, albeit off-key, simple, not quite in unison, etc.
    
    Are we looking for music that pleases us, or hearts worshipping God? 

    God says make a joyful NOISE... :-)

    I have heard it stated that there is only one requirement for entering
    into praise to God:
    
    Psalms 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise
        ye the LORD.
    
    The gall of the psalmist!  Makes a statement, and *assumes* that it
    applies to me! :-)
    
    Mark L. 

    the worship team at school (of which I was a part) often joked that
    it's a good thing it only says make a joyful NOISE and not music....
    hmm.. my SS class has joked about the same thing...
    I played guitar for both...
    do I sense a trend?
    ;-)

I always have problems with the praise song that goes something along the 
lines of

"let me be a sweet, sweet sound, in your ear"

Always seems kind of rude  :^)


Chele

    I guess we're to whisper sweet nothings in God's ear, according to that
    chorus
    :-)

re<<< Note 453.41 by RICKS::PSHERWOOD >>>

>    I guess we're to whisper sweet nothings in God's ear, according to that
>    chorus
>    :-)

I always feel really dippy singing "in your ear" !


Chele

 "I love you Lord, and I lift my voice
  to worship you, O my soul rejoice
  take joy my king, in what you hear
  may it be a sweet sweet sound in your ear"





Jim

As The Deer

As the deer panteth for the waters
so my soul longeth after thee
you alone are my hearts desire
and I long to worship thee

You alone are my strength my shield
to you alone may my spirit yield
you alone are my hearts desire
and I long to worship thee

(three times)

Written by Martin Nystrom

How Beautiful

How beautiful, the hands that served
the wine and the bread and the sons of the earth
how beautiful, the feet that walked
the long dusty roads and the hills to the cross

How beautiful...
How beautiful...
How beautiful...
is the Body of Christ

How beautiful, the heart that bled
that took all my sin and bore it instead
how beautiful, the tender eyes
that chose to forgive, and never despise

How beautiful...
How beautiful...
How beautiful...
is the Body of Christ

And as he laid down his life
we offer this sacrifice
that we will live just as he died
willing to pay the price...willing to pay the price

How beautiful, the radiant bride
who waits for the groom with His light in her eyes
how beautiful, when humble hearts give
the fruit of your fruit, just so that others may live

How beautiful...
How beautiful...
How beautiful...
Is the Body of Christ

How beautiful, the feet that bring
the sound of Good news, and the love of the king
how beautiful, the hands that serve
the wine and the bread, and the sons of the earth

How beautiful...
How beautiful... (the scars in his hands)
How beautiful...
is the Body of Christ

Written by Twila Paris

    One of the most Godly men I know is in our church.  He cannot stay on
    tune.  He is 6' 5" tall, about 240 with no fat, with a voice to go with
    it.  If he could stay on tune every tenor in the area would be envious.
    
    He sings loudly and badly, indead making a joyful noise unto the Lord.
    Would you request him not to sing, worship God as he wants, because of
    this.  While twelve part harmony sounds great, the purpose of singing
    is to worship God, and prepare yourself for the service.  
    
    I don't tend to hear anyone else while singing, I sing to the Lord and
    concentrate on feeling the Lords spirit working rather than being a
    critic of the music.
    
    I also will not attend a church that the congregation applauds after
    the music special, unless it is children or handicapped individuals
    that need the extra lift.
    
    Sparky

RE:        <<< Note 453.46 by BIGRED::SPARKS "I have just what you need" >>>

       
   > I also will not attend a church that the congregation applauds after
   > the music special, unless it is children or handicapped individuals
   > that need the extra lift.
    
    

     Why?  Not that I disagree with you.  We do not applaud in our church,
     and I watch In Touch with Charles Stanley each week and notice they
     do applaud.



 Jim

I dislike applause in church because all music offered in church is,
IMHO, to be offered to the glory of the Lord, not the musicians.

Congratulate the musicians afterwards.

Unfortunately, there is occasionally applause in my parish at the very
end, after the recessional hymn has been sung and all the sacred ministers
and the choir have left and the people are already leaving and the organ
postlude has been played.

And I don't like it.

/john

 We had an occasion in our church where a visitor erupted into applause
 when the rest of the congregation did not..I suspect she was rather 
 embarrassed, though a few folks did make a point of saying hello, etc after
 the service.

 I agree that the performances are offered to the Lord and not for the glory
 of the person doing the performing.  I try to make it a point to speaking
 to the person afterwards, particularly if its one of our young people who
 are performing.




 Jim

    I do not like appause because I feel it is glorifying the performer
    rather than God.  I have been in choir since I was a teen, and have
    always felt my performance is for God.  If the audience applauds I feel
    the performers may loose sight of who they are performing for.
    
    I guess it may be a sign of one of my weaknesses which is pride.
    
    One large church I attended for a while started applauding, and they
    tried to address it by incorporating into the worship.  The Choir would
    perform, the congregation (or in case I felt audience) would applaud at
    level 10 on the applause meter.  Someone would give a testamony,
    applause at level 8.  Then the pastor would come up and say lets
    applaud what the Lord is doing for us, applause level 2.  It was 
    pathetic.
    
    This all started with just a few people clapping after a special, to
    destroying the mood for worship.
    
    At our current church a few people clapped and it was addressed from
    the pulpit.  Our worship schedule has the choir special just before the
    message.  The mood after the special is usually one of reverence and is
    a very holy time, preparing to enter into Holy Ground, Gods word.  The
    applause usually destroys the mood.
    
    All in all it is just a personal choice, that is why there is more than
    one worship style for us to choose from.
    
    Sparky

    Well, my Pastor has to go through the, "We don't applaud here, we say,
    "Amen"!!!  But people will erupt in applause after a worship song.
    
    I've found the applause to be an acoustic and emphatic AMEN!  It's not
    for the musicians or singers, the applause is for the message of the
    song.
    
    What we do, in our church is when a visitor applauds, we will applaud
    with that visitor so they don't feel embarassed... maybe this is wrong
    to some of you and then our Pastor will remind us in the Sunday P.M. or
    Wednesday P.M. service about AMENING! :-)
    
    

    Our Church has recently started up a guitar group for playing in the
    services. Although I am fairly experienced, the others are really just
    starting and so I am also teaching them as I go along. We're getting on
    pretty well, but I feel that they are a bit disheartened with the
    suspended 4ths and diminished etc. chords that we are so often faced 
    with. For the most part, I tell them not to worry, but just play the basic
    chord. However I was wondering if anyone could recommend a nice EASY
    book of Christian choruses that could be sung during the services to
    bolster our confidence a bit. 
    I know they will be able to manage the more difficult songs in time 
    (they're convinced that they won't!!!), but it would be nice to play 
    something without having to alter it first.

>    <<< Note 453.51 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

>    I've found the applause to be an acoustic and emphatic AMEN!  It's not
>    for the musicians or singers, the applause is for the message of the
>    song.
    
    I agree, Nancy, and have heard it explained as such...

    It used to be, and still is in many churches, that people in the
    congregation would respond with a hearty AMEN to a particular point in
    a message or to a song that has moved them in some special way.  Today
    there are many who would feel as uncomfortable shouting out an AMEN as
    others are about applauding.  To them applause is their form of a
    hearty AMEN!

    Whenever I have sung solo in church (I dislike the term "special
    music") I have considered it an offering to the Lord.  Before singing I
    go into a time of prayer for several reasons.  To prepare my heart and
    mind for the offering I am about to give, to pray that the Lord would
    calm my nervousness (which I always have), to pray that the Lord would
    allow me to sing the song in a manner that He is worthy of, not for my
    glory, but for His, to pray that He would be glorified in what I sing
    rather than me receiving praise for what "I" have done, and finally I
    pray that someone's heart would be touched by the message of the song. 

    One thing I NEVER do is respond to the applause if there is any. 
    Saying "thank you" would be an assumption on my part that the applause
    is for me.  I simply step down from in front quietly.  I then pray
    again and thank the Lord for giving me the opportunity to serve Him.

    I would ask the following.  If you attend a concert of Dallas Holm,
    Michael Card, Wayne Watson, Carman, etc. do you not applaud at the end
    of each song?  Why?  Certainly it is not a church service, although
    most of the concerts that I have attended have been in a church
    building.  By far, the Carman and Michael Card concerts I have attended
    have been more worshipful than some church services I have attended.
    I'm sure there were many there who were applauding the musician(s).
    For me, however, it was as much a time of worship as attending sunday
    services.

    Ron

re:applause

For me it depends on the music.  If the music is upbeat, joyful, powerful,
then for me applause can just be a response to the music, not an adulation of
the performers.

But I agree that I really dislike it when the music is a soft,
instrospective, reverent piece and people start applauding.

re: poor singing

The interim pastor we had for one year at our church basically single-
handedly transformed our church from a church that was sort of into singing
into a real singing church.  His first change in the service was to start off
with three hymns instead of one.  But his personal singing was what really
opened people up.  He couldn't carry a tune if you stapled it to him.  He was
rarely farther than a whole note from where he was supposed to be, but rarely
closer than half a note.  Yet, standing up in front of the whole
congregation, with his microphone on, he belted it out for the Lord.  You
could almost see people thinking "gee, if he can sing that loudly and that
badly, then I guess I can go ahead and sing to the Lord regardless of how it
sounds."  It gave a real freedom in singing to the church that is still there
6 years later.

Paul

We applaud in church depending on what kind of music is performed. Why should 
the gifts of the Lord not be applauded? Shouldn't we take joy in them? Music 
that is more solemn tends not to get applauded, but is none the less 
appreciated. Shouldn't we exclaim at the beauty of rose, delight in the 
cleverness of a child, clap hands in enthusiasm at a gift displayed for the 
glory of God?

Chele

Let 'em dance in the aisles!

    Moderators may want to move other notes from 543 pertaining to this
    topic but I don't want to clutter a perfectly good note with a long
    digression.  I will continue the discussion of "Yaddi" here.
    
    Greg,
    
    Actually there are seven different Hebrew words which are translated as
    the word praise in the old testament.  One of them is "Yahdah"
    (pronounced yaw-dah).  "Yaddi" may be a derivative of that word but I
    don't know for certain since I don't have a Kittle's available at the
    moment.  If it is a derivative of "Yahdah" then it refers to a wave
    offering and is also translated as thanksgiving in other passages.  The
    physical description of the action you described in almost a direct
    quote from Strong's of the Hebrew word "Halal", from which we derive
    Hallelujah.  In the Hebrew culture the "Yahdah", while still festive in
    nature, was much more reserved than "Halal".
    
    Understand Greg, I'm not condemning the action.  To do so would be to
    condemn myself.  However, it appears that the thirst for new revelation
    has superceded biblical accuracy.
    
    Kent
    
    
    

    >    the word praise in the old testament.  One of them is "Yahdah"
    
    Any connection between this and Yahweh?  A derivative of some sort?

    I'm gonna check, but "yadah" sounds more related to "yad" which I think
    can mean either hand or remember (But I forget - no pun intended).
    
    Definitely no connection to The Name...

    RE: .57
    
    Someone with a better understanding of Hebrew may be able to correct me
    but I believe that there is a connection between many (if not all)
    Hebrew words that contain "Yah" or "Jah".  HalleluJAH is a contraction
    of Halal and Yahweh so it makes sense to me that Yahdah could be a
    contraction of Yahweh and some other word which would at the action of
    waving the hands in thanksgiving.
    
    Kent
    

I believe there's a strong scriptural basis to "letting go" in worship of the
Lord.  Even the word we say all the time, "Alleluja," has connotations of
wildness.

"Alleluja" means "Praise the Lord," most of you probably knew that.  But the
word used as "praise" in this context has a real sense of wildness to it.  In
other contexts, the same word is translated as "madness."  For example, when
David was captured by the Philistine and acted "Mad," ranting and raving and
drooling into his beard, that's the same word.  It is used in other places
which carry a connotation of making a fool of yourself.

Then the verb form it is in means "intentionally and/or intensively."  The
Hebrew word "He broke," if in the same verb form, would mean "He smashed to
pieces."  So it's not just acting a LITTLE crazy, it's a LOT.

Finally, it is in the command form.  So when you say "Alleluja," you are
really issuing a command to intentionally and intensively make a fool of
yourself for the Lord!

Perhaps we don't really need to make fools of ourselves, but at the very we
shouldn't be concerned about making fools of ourselves.  We should worship as
we are called to, and though making fools of ourselves can be taken to
unhealthy extremes, I think in our culture we far, far more often fall into
being concerned about what someone else might think and inhibiting our
worship.

Paul

    re: yaddai etc.
    
    I did some checking with LOGOS software, as well as with a local rabbi
    (it helps to discuss Hebrew with a real expert ;-), and there is no
    word "yaddai" in the Scriptures.
    
    The root word (perhaps) that we're seeking is "yadah" (Hebrew letters
    YUD, DALET, HE).  It is from the root word "yad" (YUD, DALET) which
    means hand (not connected to The Name [YUD, HE, VAV, HE]).  
    
    "Yadah", in the 100+ times it's used in the Tanakh, simply means to praise, 
    thank, or confess (esp. as in confessing sin).  Three of those 100+ times 
    it means to "shoot" (like  an arrow) or to cast (like a stone), or cast 
    down.  Note that depending on how it's used, the root is transformed...
    "I will praise" may become "odeah", etc.  The actual word used in the 
    Scriptures may not be "yadah" but that is the root.
    
    A word pronounced "yaddai", though not in the Bible, *may* be a
    possibility in some sort of difficult Hebrew grammatical construct
    (according to the rabbi); but in that case, it would be referring to
    someone's hand; not praise.
    
    That's about the best I could find out over the weekend.
    
    I can do more digging if anyone would find it profitable.
    
    Steve
    

    Thanks Steve!  Added a lot.
    
    Kent
    

In another forum, someone had asked people to respond with what music
had been used in their parishes on Sunday.  I responded, and thought
I would also post the response here:

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, October 16, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:35 pm

Prelude:	Ralph Vaughan Williams		Prelude on "Rhosymedre"
Hymn 445	Praise to the Holiest in the height   Gerontius
Introit:        Mode VII, Ego clamavi		I have called upon thee, O God
Ordinary:	Anonymous (c. 1325)		Missa Tornacensis
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 91	W. Wolstenholme			For thou, Lord, art my hope;
Gradual		Mode V, Salvum fac populum	Save thy people, O Lord
Alleluia	Mode VI, Lauda, anima mea	Praise the Lord, O my soul
Hymn 474	When I survey the wondrous cross   Rockingham
Creed		Plainsong, 9th century		(1940 Hymnal #720, +"Holy")
Offrtry Anthem	William Byrd (1543-1623)	Teach me, O Lord
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Meditabor		My delight shall be
Hymn 458	My song is love unknown		Love Unknown
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Domine Dominus noster	O Lord our Governor
Hymn 332	O God, unseen yet never near	St. Flavian
Motet		Christopher Putnam (b. 1967)	O God of peace
Hymn 657	Love Divine all loves excelling  Hyfrydol
Postlude:	Ralph Vaughan Williams		Prelude on "Hyfrydol"

/john

 For those who may prefer more "traditional" Christian music, I recently 
 purchased 2 of the "Homecoming" series with Bill and Gloria Gaither and
 a host of other Christian vocal groups..this is an excellent series.  I
 purchased the first of the series well over a year ago, and to be honest,
 didn't really like it.  However, last week I picked it up and played it
 again and loved it..so I went out and bought 2 more of the series (so far
 there are 4 of them).."Landmark" and "Turn Your Radio On".  Both are 
 excellent.  Turn your Radio On, is the best of the 3, IMO.  All are done
 in a setting with all of the vocalists (20-30 of them) in a big room singing.
 A number of Christian artists from the past (James Blackwood, the Speer Family,
 the Cathedrals, the Statesmen are included as well as some contemporary 
 artists..




 Jim

    Maranatha! Praise Band rules!

 Never heard 'em..;-)




Jim

 I'm finding my Christian musical tastes are leaning towards the ol' Southern
 Gospel (Though I still appreciate some contemporary artists) and more
 "traditional" music.



Jim

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, October 23, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm

Prelude:	Johann Sebastian Bach		Partita in A minor for
			unaccompanied flute, BWV 1013
			II. Bouree anglaise
			III. Sarabande
Hymn 371	Thou, whose almighty word	Moscow
Introit:        Mode VII, Laetetur cor		Let the heart of them rejoice
Ordinary:	Palestrina (1525-1594)		Missa "Ave Maria"
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 13	John E. West (1863-1929)
Gradual		Mode V, Unam petii		One thing have I desired
Alleluia	Mode VI, Lauda Jerusalem	Praise the Lord, O Jerusalem
Hymn 704	O thou who camest from above	Hereford
Creed		Plainsong, 9th century		(1940 Hymnal #720, +"Holy")
Offrtry Anthem	Church-musick			George Herbert / Rodney Lister
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Domine, vivifica me	Quicken me, O Lord
Hymn 475	God himself is with us		Tysk
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Laetabimur		We will rejoice in thy salvation
Motet		O sacrum convivium		Thomas Tallis (1505-1585)
Hymn 432	O praise ye the Lord!		Laudate Dominum
Postlude:	Johann Sebastian Bach		Aria: Hoechster, was ich habe
			(Cantata No. 39) for soprano, flute, and continuo
/john

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, October 30, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm

Prelude:	Passacaglia in D Minor, BuxWV 161    Dietrich Buxtehude
Hymn 544	Jesus shall reign where'er the sun   Duke Street
Introit:        Mode VII, Ne derelinquas me	Forsake me not, O Lord my God
Ordinary:	Missa "De Angelis"		Plainsong, with congregation
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 119:1-8	Tone IIIA4			Plainsong
Gradual		Mode V, Suscepimus		We have waited, O God
Alleluia	Mode VI, Verbo Domini		By the word of the Lord
Hymn 382	King of glory, King of Peace	General Seminary
Creed		Plainsong, 9th century		(1940 Hymnal #720, +"Holy")
Offrtry Anthem	O come hither			Maurice Green (1695-1755)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Benedic, anima mea	Praise the Lord, O my soul
Hymn 573	Father eternal			Langham
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Notas mihi fecisti	Thou shalt show me the path
Hymn 318	Here, O my Lord			Nyack
Motet		Lord, what love have I		William Croft (1687-1727)
Hymn 437	Tell out, my soul		Birmingham
Postlude:	Praeludium in D Minor, BuxWV 140   Buxtehude

/john

The Parish of All Saints - Ashmont (Episcopal) - Dorchester, Massachusetts
The Rev. Richard S. Bradshaw, SSC, Rector
Michael Kleinschmidt, MM, Organist and Master of Choristers
Tuesday, November 1, 1994 - 7:30 pm to 9:35 pm			Hymnal 1940
The Feast of All Saints

Prelude:	Church Sonata in F, K.244	Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
		Church Sonata in D, K.144		    (1756-1791)
Hymn 130	Who are these like stars appearing   All Saints
Hymn 126(1)	For all the saints		Sine Nomine
Ordinary:	Mass in G major, D.167		Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 149	Anglican Chant			Alcock
Alleluia	Mode VI, Matt. 11		Come unto me
Offrtry Sentnc	Wis. 3				The souls of the righteous
Hymn 599	Ye watchers and ye holy ones	Vigiles et Sancti
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		#722
Commnio Sentnc	Matt. 5				Blessed are the pure in heart
Motet		O quam gloriosum		Tomas Luis de Victoria
Solemn Te Deum	Plainsong, antiphonally, men in the chancel, boys in the loft,
		handbells in the Lady Chapel, double thurifers
Hymn 600	Ye holy angels bright		Darwall
Voluntary:	Final(Symphony 1)		Louis Vierne (1870-1937)

/john

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Wednesday, November 2, 1994 - 6:30pm to 8:25pm

Music of the Mass:   Requiem, K.626		Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Introit		Requiem aeternam dona eis	  K.626
Kyrie						  K.626
Gradual		Requiem aeternam dona eis	  Mode II Plainsong
Tract		Absolve, Domine, animas omnium	  Mode VIII Plainsong
Sequence	Dies irae			  K.626
Offertory	Domine Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae  K.626
Hymn 357	Jesus, Son of Mary		  Adoro devote
Sanctus and Benedictus				  K.626
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		  S-119
Agnus Dei					  K.626
Commnio Sentnc	Lux aeterna luceat eis		  K.626
Recessional	In paradisum			  Mode VII Plainson

/john

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, November 6, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm
Sunday within the Octave of All Saints

Prelude:	Requiescat in pace		Leo Sowerby (1895-1968)
Hymn 287	For all the saints		Sine Nomine
Ordinary:	Office of Holy Communion ("Collegium Regale")
						Herbert Howells (1892-1983)
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 149	O sing unto the Lord a new song	Terry Hanforth
Gradual		Mode V, Timet Dominum		O fear the Lord
Alleluia	Mode VI, Venite ad me		Come unto me
Hymn 253	Give us the wings of faith	San Rocco
Offrtry Anthem	O how glorius is the kingdom	Basil Harwood (1859-1949)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Justorum animae	The souls of the righteous
Hymn 618	Ye watchers and ye holy ones	Lass uns erfreuen
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Beatie mundo corde	Blessed are the pure in heart
Motet		Audivi vocem de coelo		Duarte Lobo (c. 1565-1640)
Hymn 286	Who are these like stars	Zeuch mich, Zeuch mich
Postlude:	Placare Christe servulis, 38:16	Marcel Dupre (1886-1971)

Organ Recital, 5:30-6:00
Andrew Shenton
		Joie et Clarte des Corps Glorieux
		(Les Corps Glorieux, 1939)	Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
		Chorale in B Minor
		(Trois Chorals, 1890)		Cesar Franck (1822-1890)
		Cantilene (Suite Breve, 1947)	Jean Langlais (1907-1991)

Solemn Evensong and Benediction, 6:00-6:45
The Volunteer Choir, Mark Dwyer directing, Michael Kleinschmidt, Organ

Hymn 545	Lo! what a cloud of witnesses	St. Fulbert
Preces		O Lord open thou our lips	Richard Ayleward (1626-1669)
Psalm 148	O Praise the Lord from the heavens   J. Marsh
Psalm 150	O Praise God in his sanctuary	     G.S. Talbot
Magnificat	Evening Service in E Major	Herbert Murril (1909-1952)
Nunc Dimittis	   "       "    "  "   "	   "      "
Lesser Litany					Ayleward
Suffrages	O Lord, shew thy mercy upon us	Ayleward
Anthem		Requem aeternam			Giovanni Anerio (1567-1639)

Hymn		O saving Victim, opening wide	  Marty Dei, Plainsong, Mode VI
Hymn		Therefore we, before him bending  Tantum ergo, Plainsong, Mode V
Psalm 117	w Antiphon: Let us forever adore  Mode I

/john

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, November 13, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm
The Twenty-Fifth Sunday after Pentecost

Prelude:	Variations on a shape-note hymn	 Samuel Barber (1910-1981)
		Op. 34, "Wondrous Love"
Hymn 591	O God of earth and altar	King's Lynn
Introuit	Mode VII, Dicit Dominus		Thus saith the Lord
Ordinary:	Missa "Praeparate corda vestra"	Steffano Bernardi (1576-1636)
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 16:6-12	The Lord himself is the portion	 James Turle
Gradual		Mode V, Liberasti nos		It is thou, O Lord
Alleluia	Mode VI, De profundis		Out of the deep
Hymn 462	The Lord will come and not be slow   York
Offrtry Anthem	Manus tuae Domine		Cristobal Morales (c. 1500-53)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, De profundis		Out of the deep
Hymn 522/1940	Lord Christ, when first thou	Bohemian Brethren
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Amen dico vobis		Verily I say unto you
Motet		O sacrum convivium		Everett Titcomb (1884-1968)
Hymn 596	Judge eternal, throned in splendor   Komm, o komm
Postlude:	Revelations (III. Toccata)	Daniel Pinkham (b. 1923)

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, November 20, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:50 pm
The Last Sunday after Pentecost: The Feast of Christ the King

Prelude:	Prelude in C Major, BWV 547	J. S. Bach (1685-1750)
Hymn 483	The head that once was crowned with thorns   St. Magnus
Hymn 494	Crown him with many crowns	Diademata
Ordinary:	Missa "Regina coeli"		Palestrina (c. 1525-1594)
		 (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 93	The Lord is King		William Crotch (1775-1847)
Gradual		Mode V, Dominabitur		His dominion shall be
Alleluia	Mode VI, Potestas ejus		His dominion is everlasting
Hymn 290/1940	Let all the world in ever corner sing   Universal Praise
Offrtry Anthem	My God and King			Kenneth Leighton (1929-1988)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Postula a me		Desire of me, and I shall give
Hymn 616	Hail to the Lord's Anointed	Es flog ein kleins Waldvoegelein
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Beati mundo corde	The Lord remaineth a King
Motet		The Lord is King		Henry Purcell (1659-1695)
Solemn Te Deum	Te Deum in C Major		Benjamin Britten (1913-1976)
Postlude:	Fugue in C Major, BWV 547	J. S. Bach

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, D. Mus., Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, November 27, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm
The First Sunday in Advent
The Feast of Title and Dedication: The beginning of the 150th year of the parish

Prelude:	Symphonie-Passion, Op. 23	Marcel Dupre (1886-1971)
		1. Le Monde dans l'attente du Sauveur
Hymn 360	Only-begotten			Rouen
Hymn 525	The Church's one foundation	Aurelia
Kyrie		Paschal Kyrie			John Sheppard
Psalm 50	The Lord, even the Most Mighty	R. Langdon
Gradual		Mode V, Universi		For all they look for thee
Alleluia	Mode VI, Ostende nobis		Show us the mercy
Hymn 73		The King shall come when morning dawns	St. Stephen
Offrtry Anthem	Blessed City, heavenly Salem	Edward C. Bairstow (1874-1946)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Ad te Domine		Unto thee, O Lord
Hymn 57		Lo! he comes, with clouds descending	Helmsley
Ordinary:	Cantate Mass			John Sheppard
		 (Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Dominus dabit		The Lord shall show
Motet		The gate of heaven		Rodney Lister (b. 1951)
Motet		This is truly the house of God	Edmund Rubbra (1901-1986)
Hymn 486	Hosanna to the living Lord!	Hosanna
Postlude:	Carillon de Westminster, Op. 54 No. 6	Louis Vierne (1870-1937)

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, D. Mus., Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, December 11, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm
The Third Sunday of Advent ("Gaudete" Sunday)

Prelude:	Herr Christ, der einige Gottes Sohn, BuxWV 192
   		Es ist das Heil uns kommen her, BuxWV 186
   						Dietrich Buxtehude (1637-1707)
Hymn 76		On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry	Winchester New
Introit		Mode VII, Gaudete		Rejoice ye in the Lord
Ordinary:	Missa Brevis I			John Cook (1918-1984)
		(Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 85	Lord, thou art become gracious	John Goss (1800-1880)
Gradual		Mode V, Qui sedes, Domine	Show thyself, O Lord
Alleluia	Mode VI, Excita, Domine		Stir up thy strength, O Lord
Hymn 60		Creator of the stars of night	Conditor alme siderum
Offrtry Anthem	O come, Emmanuel		Daniel Pinkham (b. 1923)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Benedixisti		O Lord, thou art become gracious
Hymn 3/1940	Wake, awake for night is flying	Sleepers, wake
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Dicite: Pusillanimes	Say to them of a fearful heart
Hymn 54		Saviour of the nations come!	Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland
Motet		Rejoice in the Lord alway	Anonymous (16th century)
Hymn 59		Hark! a thrilling voice is sounding	Merton
Postlude:	Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme, BWV 645
   						J. S. Bach (1685-1750)

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, D. Mus., Organist and Choirmaster
Sunday, December 18, 1994 - 11:00 am to 12:40 pm
The Fourth Sunday of Advent

Prelude:	Nun komm der Heiden Heiland, BWV 659	J.S. Bach (1685-1750)
Hymn 264	The Word whom earth and sea and sky	Song 34
Introit		Mode VII, Rorate caeli		Drop down, ye heavens
Ordinary:	Missa Brevis			William Walton (1902-1983)
		(Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Psalm 80	Hear, O Shepherd of Israel	George C. Martin
Gradual		Mode V, Prope est Dominus	The Lord is nigh
Alleluia	Mode VI, Veni, Domine		Come, O Lord, and tarry not
Hymn 63		O heavenly Word, eternal Light	Verbum supernum prodiens
Offrtry Anthem	Magnificat in C Major, Op. 115	Charls V. Stanford (1852-1924)
Offrtry Sentnc	Mode II, Ave Maria		Hail Mary, full of grace
Hymn 56		O come, O come, Emmanuel	Veni, veni, Emmanuel
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Mode I, Ecce virgo concipiet	Behold, a Virgin shall conceive
Hymn 256	The angel Gabriel		Gabriel's Message
Motet		Alma Redemptoris Mater		Francisco Guerrero (1528-1599)
Hymn 66		Come, thou long-expected Jesus	Stuttgart
Postlude:	Aria: Streite, siege, starker Held! (Bach Cantata No. 62)

Held in the Colossus Room, DECpark I, Reading, UK
	12:30-1:30, Thursday 22nd December 1994

As a fellowship celebration of the first advent of our LORD Jesus Christ,
and as a public testimony to His continuing life within us today.

Introduction, Prayer	---- Carl Evans ----
Isaiah 7:14-15; 9:6-7
Carol		Silent Night
Luke 2:1-4	The census, to Bethlehem.
Carol		Little Town of Bethlehem
Luke 2:5-7	The Birth
Carol		Once in Royal David's City

		---- Paul Elford ----
Luke 2:8-12	Angelic announcement to the shepherds
Carol		While Shepherds Watched
Luke 2:13-14	Angelic celebration of the birth
Carol		Hark the Herald Angels Sing

		----  Wendy Fox   ----
Luke 2:15-16,20	The King, as seen by the Shepherds
Carol		Away in a Manger

		---- Andrew Yuille ----
Matthew 2:1..11	The Magi respond to the sign of the star with worship
Carol		The First Nowell

Carol		O Come all ye Faithful
Prayer, Close

Attribution of words and music omitted; available on request.  Each reading 
and carol was introduced by the person named above, with a brief talk on 
the aspect of the nativity covered.  The service was followed by a time of 
fellowship over mince pies and coffee.  Particular appreciation was 
expressed to Paul Elford, as this was his last day as a Digital employee.
Regret was also expressed that Ben Price, anticipated to join us from 
Basingstoke, was unable to be present due to a last minute car problem.

							Andrew Yuille

I don't know is this is the right note to put this in, or if I am violating a
copyrigtht however someone just included this hymn in a mail to me and I thought
I would share it with you. I think Wesley wrote it, but I am not sure.


Gary.

There is a fountain filled with blood
Drawn from Emmanuells veins
And sinners washed beneath the Flood
Loose all their guilty stains

The dying thief rejoiced to see
That fountain in his day
And there may I though vile as he
Wash all my sins away

I do believe, I WILL believe
That JESUS died for ME
That on the cross He shed his blood
From sin to set me free

Dear dying lamb, thy precious blood
Shall never loose its power
Till all the ransomed church of God
Be saved to sin no more

E'er since by faith I saw the stream
Thy flowing wounds supply
Redeeming love has been my theme
And shall be till I die.


Amen.

I *think* that one's old enough to be out of copyright control.  I rejoice 
that its truth will NEVER wear out.  For eternity... ;-)  Thanks Gary.

							Andrew

The Church of the Advent (Episcopal) - Boston, Massachusetts
The Rev. Andrew C. Mead, Rector
Miss Edith Ho, D. Mus., Organist and Choirmaster
1 October 1995, 11:00 am to 12:59 pm
The Feast of St. Michael and All Angels (Michelmas), Transferred

Prelude:	Prelude and Fugue in C Minor,	Felix Mendelssohn (1809-1847)
		    Op. 37, No. 1
Hymn 282	Christ the fair glory		Caelites plaudant
Ordinary:	Missa "In Angustiis" ("Nelson	Franz Joseph Haydn (1732-1809)
		    Mass") in D Minor for Orchestra,
		    Soli, and Chorus
		(Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
Gradual		Mode V, Benedicte Dominum
		    O praise the Lord, ye angels of his, ye that
		    excel in strength; ye that fulfill his commandment.
		    O praise the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within
		    me praise his holy name.
Alleluia	Sancte Michael			Mode VI
		    Holy Michael Archangel, defend us in the day of
		    battle, that we perish not in the dreadful judgment.
Offrtry Anthem	Duo Seraphim			Jakob Handl (1550-1591)
		    Two angels cried one to another: Holy, holy, holy is
		    the Lord God of Sabaoth; the whole earth is full of
		    his glory.  Glory be to thee, co-equal Trinity, equal
		    and one Deity, before all ages, now and for evermore.
Offrtry Sentnc	Stetit angelus			Mode II
		    An angel stood by the altar of his temple, having
		    a golden censer in his hand: and there was given unto
		    him much incense, and the smoke of the incense
		    ascended up to God, Alleluia.
Hymn 618	Ye watchers and ye holy ones	Lasst uns erfreuen
Lord's Prayer	Traditional ekphonesis		S-119
Commnio Sentnc	Benedicte omnes angeli		Mode I
		    O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord:
		    sing ye praises, and magnify him above all for ever.
Motet		Duo Seraphim			Richard Dering (c. 1580-1630)
		    Two angels cried one to another: Holy, holy, holy is
		    the Lord God of Sabaoth; the whole earth is full of
		    his glory.
Motet		Factum est silentium		Philippe de Monte (1521-1603)
		    There was silence in heaven, and then the dragon made
		    war with the Archangel Michael.  A million voices were
		    heard crying out: health honour and power to the
		    Almighty God, Alleluia.  A million ministered to him
		    and tens of thousands attended him.
Hymn 121(1940)	Stars of the morning		Trisagion
Postlude:	Prelude and Fugue in D Minor,	Felix Mendelssohn
		    Op. 37, No. 3

		At the Name of Jesus,
		  Every knee shall bow,
		Every tongue confess him
		  King of glory now;
		'Tis the Father's pleasure
		  We should call him Lord,
		Who from the beginning
		  Was the mighty Word.

		At his voice creation
		  Sprang at once to sight,
		All the angel faces,
		  All the hosts of light,
		Thrones and dominations,
		  Stars upon their way,
		All the heavenly orders,
		  In their great array.

		Humbled for a season,
		  To receive a Name
		From the lips of sinners,
		  Unto whom he came,
		Faithfully he bore it
		  Spotless to the last,
		Brought it back victorious,
		  When from death he passed;

		Bore it up triumphant,
		  With its human light,
		Through all ranks of creatures,
		  To the central height,
		To the throne of Godhead,
		  To the Father's breast;
		Filled it with the glory
		  Of that perfect rest.

		Name him, brothers, name him,
		  With love as strong as death,
		But with awe and wonder
		  And with bated breath;
		He is God the Saviour,
		  He is Christ the Lord,
		Ever to be worshipped,
		  Trusted, and adored.

		In your hearts enthrone him;
		  There let him subdue
		All that is not holy,
		  All that is not true:
		Crown him as your Captain
		  In temptation's hour;
		Let his will enfold you
		  In its light and power.

		Brothers, this Lord Jesus
		  Shall return again,
		With his Father's glory,
		  With his angel train;
		For all wreaths of empire
		  Meet upon his brow,
		And our hearts confess him
		  King of glory now.

--Caroline Maria Noel, 1870.
--King's Weston composed for this text by Ralph Vaughan Williams, 1925.

    Has anyone ever heard a song in reference to Romans 8:28.  When I was
    young a Catholic church I went to sang a song titled Romans 8.  It
    was so beautiful that all these years the tune has stuck in my head. 
    Yet lately I have been forgeting some of the versus and words. Old age!
    
    And it's driving me nuts!
    
    It started off...
    
    	For to those who love God
    	  who are called in his plan
    	Everything works out for good.. 
    
      lalalalalalala?????  
    
    
    Rose

Rose,

> lalalalalalala?????

This is the only part I recognize.  8*)

ace

	In the Church of England Newspaper, Canon Michael Saward
	writes that a price will be paid for using modern choruses
	instead of traditional hymns in church services.

	"People learn their theology from hymns and a new generation
	is growing up with little or no theology in their bloodstream."

>	In the Church of England Newspaper, Canon Michael Saward
>	writes that a price will be paid for using modern choruses
>	instead of traditional hymns in church services.

>	"People learn their theology from hymns and a new generation
>	is growing up with little or no theology in their bloodstream."



 depending on what is meant by traditionaly hymns, I tend to agree.  While
 there are many fine choruses today that can be nice to sing, I don't think
 they can take the place of hymns, ie The Old Rugged Cross, Amazing Grace,
 How Great Thou Art, It is Well, Blessed Assurance, etc..much of contemporary
 christian music, in my opinion of course, lacks a clear message.



 Jim

    ...or any message :'(

I do agree that some contemporary Christian music is contentless, but not 
all.  That said, I thought music was for the purpose of praising God, and 
that we learn about God through the preaching, teaching, and studying 
of the Scriptures.

Leslie

You're right Leslie.

But a bigger problem is the premise of the Canon's statement: "People learn
their theology from hymns."  The sad thing is that he's largely right, about
many people in the American church.  People don't read their bibles on their
own, they don't pray much on their own, they fall asleep during the sermon
each week, or even if they stay awake they forget all about what the sermon
said by the time they're in the car on the way home - or even sooner.  About
the only thing that actually sticks with them is the hymns, because they are
repeated over and over and stick in their minds.  And so those hymns are
really the only thing they have to fall back on when they really need help.

Not in any way claiming that people who use modern music are deeper
christians, but when you really have a relationship with God - when you spend
time with Him in prayer, you spend time in the Word, you turn to Him in all
circumstances, then music doesn't have to be theology.  It can simply be an
expression of love and worship and praise to God.

Paul

    I disagree and agree with what Leslie wrote regarding the purpose of
    music.
    
    It is for praise, but it is for much, much more.  I have scriptures
    written down in journal of a Bible study I did some years ago, but I
    don't have them handy and therefore what is next is subject to
    verification.  However, I do believe this is what my study found:
    
    1.  Praise
    2.  Emotional Expression
    3.  Food for the soul
    
    I can expound on each of these, but don't have the time.  The Bible is
    also very clear about content of music and its purpose and that purpose
    is always spiritual.
    
    Music is one of the subtle weapons against Christians today even
    sometimes by those who call themselves contemporary christian artists.
    
    

    I learn a lot through music lyrics.  Its like poetry, you can express
    things in music that you can't easily express in words.  
    
    Of course you need to be careful what you study!
    
    
    Jill
    

 In no way would I suggest replacing Bible study/prayer with singing hymns.
 I look at hymns as being a sort of reinforcement, if you will, of scripture.
 And, there is some contemporary music that I like, but as I said it seems
 the message just isn't clear.  Today it seems much of contemporary music
 echoes the world's music..ie, the world has "alternative" music, and there
 is Christian "alternative".  And that's OK, I suppose, but I like for the 
 message to be clear.



 Jim

    .98
    
    It's not okay if alternative means outside God's holiness.  What is
    alternative music?

    Halelujah, a SNArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrF!
    
    

    
>    It's not okay if alternative means outside God's holiness.  What is
>    alternative music?



 It's a name applied to a genre of rock music..some contemporary Christian
 music applies the style with more inspirational lyrics in the hope that
 it will appeal to Christian youth drawn to that genre.



 Jim

    Alternative would be like Audio Adrenaline.

    "GOD did good when he did music"......"it's like praying twice"
    
                  all  best in CHRIST..........      Jack Perry