Conference yukon::christian_v7

On Saturday evening, some close friends came over and helped with dinner.
The kids played downstairs or outside (my wife is ill with pneumonia).
A bit after 7 we realized that the kids were not as noticable and realized
that this was the Star Trek: The Next Generation (STNG) hour, which both our 
families have been missing more and more lately - on purpose.  I wandered on 
down and sat down to watch the show with the kids; the other adults remained 
in the  living room.

Saturday nights episode was about the second coming of Christ, STNG style.
Christ wasn't mentioned: this was a Klingon story about a guy called Kaless.
It seems that Warf went to find his faith.  Klingon folklore also had a
religious person who promised to return.  The STNG writers "returned" this
religious man, through the priesthood of the Klingons by means of 
technologically cloning the "Christ-man" from DNA and genetic remnants.
Genetically, this was the "Kaless" (the Christ).

Faced with this fraud, Warf is worse off than before.  Will Kaless really
every return?

During the show, the people in power (after they discover the clone-fraud)
all admit that society is degenerating in chaos and that moral direction
*IS* needed and that religion can provide this stability.  So they agree
to make this clone the Empoere of the Klingon Empire (as a figure head only)
to bring moral guidance to the Klingon Empire.  This is a solution.

But the icing on the cake was the ending prolog where Warf and Kaless talk
one on one.  Kaless says (and I paraphrase) "What does it matter whether
the man returns or not?  If his words are true and good and endure the test 
of time, then the man lives on."

In other words folks, it doesn't matter that Jesus was just a man; his
sermon on the mount and other words of love are the important part of 
the equation.  It doesn't matter that Jesus was not God, because religion
is merely a moral stabilizer for society.  It doesn't matter what you 
believe, so long as you have faith in something, and if that is faith in
the words of a good man, a phenominal teacher, that's all the better.

I used to think that STNG was merely dangerous with its entertaining but
humanistic messages, but this show was THE MOST thinly veiled attack on
Christendom I have ever witnessed (worse than the Landrew show of the old 
series).  (Don't forget, Gene Roddenberry said in an interview that he 
goes out of his way to insult God, and these writers are following well in
the late master's footfalls.)

Do you wonder what it matters whether Jesus was God or not, because His words
bring life?  If you don't know, then STNG is not only dangerous, it can be
deadly to you.  And it is poisoning the minds of you and your children with
the message that "it is okay to believe what you want, so long as it renders
Jesus less than God."  I forgot to mention that two Klingon persons were
resolute in their belief that Kaless was coming back (or that the clone was
*Him*) and they were called "fools" for their belief.  When faced with a
false Christ, we would be fools to believe in him - BUT if you believe that
Jesus was more than man - fully God - and that He will return - then you are
in the same category as a person who believes in a false Christ: a fool.

What does it matter Who Jesus is and whether He was just a man or God incarnate?

1 Corinthians 15
 12  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among
you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
 13  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
 14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith
is also vain.
 15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified
of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead
rise not.
 16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
 17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your
sins.
 18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most
miserable.

Let me summarize:

  If Christ is not God, we are dead in our sins.  Period.

  If Christ is not God, forget religion and live life to please yourself
because when it is over, you either go into nothingness (at best) or 
eternal fire (at worst).  As the sermon says in .1, the importance of 
Who Jesus is is central to the doctrine of Christianity.  Beware of those
who attempt to tell you that Jesus is only a man, for they bear false witness
of God and attempt to lure you away from the Way the Truth and the Life.

  If you think I am merely frothing at the mouth over some "good entertainment"
then I challenge you to examine your beliefs.  Would you have someone preach
that message (that Jesus is not God, is not coming back, that it is His words
that are the important thing, that religion is just a moral stabilizer)
in your church pulpit?  Why do you tolerate the message coming in through your 
television?  

Am I saying don't watch it?  Nope. (Though I've seen more than enough, and it
gets worse each time I do sit down to be "entertained.")  I am asking you,
"What are you doing to combat this message of heresy with your children?
What are you doing to protect yourself from a message that sounds 
oh-so-reasonably-pleasing-and-would-be-so-much-easier-to-believe-even-if-it-
is-counter-biblical?  What do you say when asked, 'Did God say that you should
not eat of every tree of the garden?'"

That epsiode was not merely humanistic, it was Anti-Christian, and 
fellow Christian, if it takes someone pointing it out to you, point your
eyes less on the TV and more on the person of Jesus Christ.

MM

   re: .2 - Star Trek

   I haven't read anything in here for quite a while, but someone told me
   about this particular note, and I came over to read it...
   
   I disagree with your analysis of this episode - specifically, I do not
   agree that this was the 2nd Coming of Christ story, told through Star
   Trek.  While there were religious overtones to this Klingon who
   promised to return, I do not believe that he ever made the claim to be
   a god or any sort of supernatural saviour.  I got the distinct
   impression that this was more like Caesar or King Arthur or Alexandar
   the Great promising to return and rule their country again.
   
   Yes, this was a point of, well, spiritual crisis for Worf, but I
   believe you have taken the story a little further than it was
   intended.  
   
   I did not get any feeling from the story that it was pointed at
   Christianity - especially given what has been revealed about the
   person (greatest warrior, returning to lead his people back to honor,
   etc), and what has been revealed about Klingon culture through the
   Star Trek series.  It could just as easily been aimed at Roman or
   Persian or Aztec or Indian culture - many ancient cultures contain
   legends of great warriors who are/were expected to return.
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom
   
   btw - I probably won't get back in here again for a while - I just
   came over to add a couple of comments.... anybody who really wants to
   continue this discussion with me, please send mail.

    (Tom will get this message mailed to him)
    
    Tom,
      I base my claims on several factors, some that you acknowledge
    yourself.  
    
    o Warf was at a "point of, well, spiritual crisis."
    
    o This was clearly a spiritual leader and not a political leader
    
    o Alexander, Caesar, etc were political leaders, not claiming to return
      supernaturally as Kaless and Christ have.
    
    o Remember the two Klingons who were waiting for Kaless, who were
      called fools by Warf?  This was a spiritual and not a political
      leader they were looking for.
    
    o Gene Roddenberry's legacy was to "insult God" and "especially
      Christianity."
    
    o STNG constantly and consistently preaches a "man is the ultimate
      adapter to any situation and conquerer of any problem" (i.e. man is
      god).
    
    o Especially for the moral and spiritual implications of this
      particular story, this was most definitely pointed at Christianity
      and not as easily aimed at Roman, Persian, Aztec, or Indian Culture.
      This is no promise of John MacArthur "I shall return."  This was
      clearly a spiritual leader returning to restore order to a chaotic
      race (Klingons).  The parallels are too compelling to think
      otherwise, though I do not doubt that some do (including my
      associate Pastor who is so enamored by the entertainment value
      - $500,000 a week on special effects, if I remember correctly -
      that he also turns a blind eye to the thinly veiled allusions 
      to Christianity, always in a negative light).
    
    Don't forget that Jesus will return to rule and so the political
    element is not lost in the translation, but the spiritual theme was
    foremost in the STNG episode.
    
    To some people, I know what I wrote in .2 can seem like an
    over-reaction, for some of many reasons.  I know losts of Christians
    who love the show, and I've seen many (not just a few to cast judgment
    in a vacuum; in fact I have 75 of the 79 titles of the "kirk" series,
    as well as the first two seasons of STNG on tape).  I like the science
    fiction and special effects myself.  No, I love it!
    
    However, let us not be fooled that this is not being used to package a
    humanistic message most of the time, and an anti-Christian message in
    the episode of last Saturday.
    
    Mark Metcalfe

    The following replies are E-Mail between Tom and I, which he offered
    to have me post, which I am about to do.  It was a very civl discussion
    with a friendly challenge that I make to all who watch STNG.
    
    Mark

From:	JARETH::ASDS::PEACOCK "Nothing happens in life without passion... nothing.  26-May-1993 1411" 26-MAY-1993 14:11:42.09
To:	JARETH::TOKNOW::METCALFE
CC:	PEACOCK
Subj:	RE: Hi Tom.  I'd like to open a dialog with you.

   Hi Mark,
   
   Up "noting" a bit late, eh?  :-)
   
>                                                     ...I do not know
>   Scotty's serial number but know of people who do.

   Neither do I... I guess you and I just don't qualify for membership in
   the Star Trek "Get A Life" Club....

>   I'll also get some documented support of my assertion about
>   Roddenberry if you like.

   I am a bit curious, but I am willing to accept the claim.  Even so, do
   you think that the new crop of writers is so loyal to G.R. that they
   would carry forth his disdain for Christianity?  He has been dead for,
   what is it, almost a year now, isn't it..

>   Now how about you?  Are you a Christian, Tom?  (I'm just looking for a
>   basis for conversation.)  
   
   Yes, I am a Christian.  

>                          Did you take my .2 as a foaming at the mouth
>   fundamentalist over-reaction to something that was nothing?  Let's
>   talk.

   Oooooohhhh... is this a loaded question or what?!  No, I didn't really
   think you were foaming... well, not that much anyway.. :-)  Frankly it
   was refreshing to see a well thought out response.  I stopped reading
   the CHRISTIAN conference a long time ago ... I was getting tired of
   all the bickering and ego that I saw in there - it wasn't uplifting,
   and I wasn't learning anything so it wasn't worth the time.
   
   I'll try to reply to your latest message, and then there is something
   in your .2 reply that I think is important to our discussion here...


   From .4:

>    o Warf was at a "point of, well, spiritual crisis."
   
   Yes, but do you really compare the traditions and legends of the
   Klingon Empire to Christianity?   If the story had instead centered
   around American Indian culture and their search for spirituality would
   you have had the same reaction?

>    o This was clearly a spiritual leader and not a political leader

   Are you sure?  I thought this leader was supposed to be the "greatest
   Klingon warrior", and therefore was supposed to come back to lead his
   people back to honor and glory.  From what little I know of Klingon
   culture, it is most honorable to die in battle, for example.  
   
   Then again, I suppose you could also argue that the matters of honor,
   glory, and spirituality are closely integrated in Klingon culture, so
   trying to talk about them separately is going to be tough anyway.

   I thought that the issue of a moral leader came up as the story was
   being played out and they were deciding what to do with Kaless.

>    o Alexander, Caesar, etc were political leaders, not claiming to return
>      supernaturally as Kaless and Christ have.

   True.  I'm still not sure about Kaless, though.  If the story said
   that he was (primarily) a political leader, then the only supernatural
   part of the story was his return.

>    o Remember the two Klingons who were waiting for Kaless, who were
>      called fools by Warf?  This was a spiritual and not a political
>      leader they were looking for.
   
   Agreed.

>    o Gene Roddenberry's legacy was to "insult God" and "especially
>      Christianity."
   
   Interesting.

>    o STNG constantly and consistently preaches a "man is the ultimate
>      adapter to any situation and conquerer of any problem" (i.e. man is
>      god).
   
   No arguments on this point.

>    o Especially for the moral and spiritual implications of this
>      particular story, this was most definitely pointed at Christianity
>      and not as easily aimed at Roman, Persian, Aztec, or Indian Culture.
>      This is no promise of John MacArthur "I shall return."  This was
>      clearly a spiritual leader returning to restore order to a chaotic
>      race (Klingons).  The parallels are too compelling to think
>      otherwise, though I do not doubt that some do (including my
>      associate Pastor who is so enamored by the entertainment value
>      - $500,000 a week on special effects, if I remember correctly -
>      that he also turns a blind eye to the thinly veiled allusions 
>      to Christianity, always in a negative light).
   
   You make a conclusion in your .2 reply that I will comment on shortly,
   but I do not agree.

>    Don't forget that Jesus will return to rule and so the political
>    element is not lost in the translation, but the spiritual theme was
>    foremost in the STNG episode.
   
   True.

>    To some people, I know what I wrote in .2 can seem like an
>    over-reaction, for some of many reasons.  I know losts of Christians
                                                      ^^^^^
   Was this a typo or was it intentional?  :-)
   
>    who love the show, and I've seen many (not just a few to cast judgment
>    in a vacuum; in fact I have 75 of the 79 titles of the "kirk" series,
>    as well as the first two seasons of STNG on tape).  I like the science
>    fiction and special effects myself.  No, I love it!

>    However, let us not be fooled that this is not being used to package a
>    humanistic message most of the time, and an anti-Christian message in
>    the episode of last Saturday.

   While I certainly can't argue against the humanistic message, are you
   sure that they are going out of their way to single out Christianity,
   or is it just a slam on faith in general?


   From .2:
   
>   But the icing on the cake was the ending prolog where Warf and Kaless
>   talk one on one.  Kaless says (and I paraphrase) "What does it matter
>   whether the man returns or not?  If his words are true and good and
>   endure the test of time, then the man lives on."

>   In other words folks, it doesn't matter that Jesus was just a man; his
>   sermon on the mount and other words of love are the important part of
>   the equation.  It doesn't matter that Jesus was not God, because
>   religion is merely a moral stabilizer for society.  It doesn't matter
>   what you believe, so long as you have faith in something, and if that
>   is faith in the words of a good man, a phenominal teacher, that's all
>   the better.
   
   The conclusion you make going from one paragraph to the other is the
   part that I question.  I did not think that Kaless was talking about
   Christ here.  I really thought he was talking about himself, and
   encouraging Worf to keep his faith, even if he (the Kaless clone)
   wasn't who everyone thought he was.
   
   Your words are true, and your concerns are valid.  I simply question
   whether or not they apply to this story.
   
   btw - if you want to take this response back to the CHRISTIAN file,
   feel free to do so.  Though I would recommend that we take it to
   another note - I'm not sure how closely it really follows the intent
   of this particular note.
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom

From:	TOKNOW::METCALFE "Adults are the biggest children.  26-May-1993 1626" 26-MAY-1993 16:27:51.06
To:	JARETH::PEACOCK
CC:	METCALFE
Subj:	RE: Hi Tom.  I'd like to open a dialog with you.

>   Up "noting" a bit late, eh?  :-)

Actually, yesterday was crazy so I took an extract of the conference
home (and read it during a meeting at church) and found your reply
among them.  So I wanted to log on and respond.  Thanks for opening
this up.  Sorry about typos - I'm guilty of my share.  I don't often
make spelling errors but I do make typographical errors more often than I'd
like.

>   Neither do I... I guess you and I just don't qualify for membership in
>   the Star Trek "Get A Life" Club....

:-)

>>   I'll also get some documented support of my assertion about
>>   Roddenberry if you like.
>
>   I am a bit curious, but I am willing to accept the claim.  

I'll still look it up.  My associate Pastor (who likes the show) had the
magazine article - don't know if he still does.

>   Even so, do
>   you think that the new crop of writers is so loyal to G.R. that they
>   would carry forth his disdain for Christianity?  He has been dead for,
>   what is it, almost a year now, isn't it..

Not loyalty to G.R., by no means.  But loyal to the Star Trek philosophy.
(I once said I'd like to debate the "Prime Directive" from the Christian
point of view.)  What is the Star Trek philosophy?  Humanism, at its
best, and worse... I'll get to that by sayig this:  Humanism and new age
are anti-Christian.  How can this be?  After all, we're talking the betterment
of humankind, the saving of the planet.  Surely one does not object to
such noble things?  Surely not.  But the humanistic point of view is
essentially that man is God unto himself.  He makes things happen, overcomes
any adversity on his own, etc.  It seeks to eliminate God from the equation of
that which is good.  Can one become better (good) without God?  Can one
become good (better) without God?  

>>    o Warf was at a "point of, well, spiritual crisis."
>   
>   Yes, but do you really compare the traditions and legends of the
>   Klingon Empire to Christianity?   If the story had instead centered
>   around American Indian culture and their search for spirituality would
>   you have had the same reaction?

Clearly the Klingons are a different culture but let's look at the
similarities.  Each has a moral code of what is good, right, and proper.
Honor, glory, and battle are "good" things to the Klingon - that is they are
moral things to do.  Dishonorable things are immoral to the Klingon.
That Kaless was coming back to restore the moral fiber of the Klingon Empire is
the psuedo-message of Christianity.  By this I mean, the idea that Jesus will
return to restore morality (in fact eliminate immorality) and have a utopian
earth is mirrored by what the Klingon Empire deems to be moral and utopian.

Not that the two cultures see the same thing as the moral thing.  This is also
a subtle message that "goodness" is defined by each culture: there is no
absolute Good, only subjective (and in this case cultural goods).

>>    o This was clearly a spiritual leader and not a political leader
>
>   Are you sure?  I thought this leader was supposed to be the "greatest
>   Klingon warrior", and therefore was supposed to come back to lead his
>   people back to honor and glory.  From what little I know of Klingon
>   culture, it is most honorable to die in battle, for example.  
   
Don't forget that many Jews thought the Messiah was coming to be a 
*conquering* king.  Palm Sunday proclaimed this king, and many thought he was
going to lead them in rebellion against the Romans, and being Messiah, they'd
win as old Israel won the battles with God on their side.

And again, let's not get lost in the specifics of the Klingon Culture so we
fail to see the principles of morality at work.  

>   I thought that the issue of a moral leader came up as the story was
>   being played out and they were deciding what to do with Kaless.

Warf went to "find" or test his faith, did he not?  Faith in what?
The word faith was used several times.  We don't use that word often for
political systems.  Did you tape the show?  I'd be willing to watch it again.
I know someone who tapes all the shows.  It would be interesting to get some
exerpts from the script, wouldn't it?

I do not doubt that you did not see all that I saw in that show.  I have
friends of mine who thought I was (less than) foaming at the mouth, so I just
asked them to watch it and be conscious of the message the show was trasmitting
for the next three or four weeks.  It is the exception that STNG is pure
entertainment.  All the ST shows, with the possible exceptions of "A Piece of
the Action and a few others" had a moral to push; some good, some not so good.
Most sit-coms are dong the same thing.  But that's another thing.

>>    o Alexander, Caesar, etc were political leaders, not claiming to return
>>      supernaturally as Kaless and Christ have.
>
>   True.  I'm still not sure about Kaless, though.  If the story said
>   that he was (primarily) a political leader, then the only supernatural
>   part of the story was his return.

Who were Kaless's proponents?  And Opponents?  The proponents were robed
clergy.  The opponent was the political leader (Was his name Mordok?  No that
was Warf's father.  Oh well, it escapes me.)  The political leader bowed 
his knee to Kaless under the compromise Warf came up with: Kaless would be a
figurehead to restore the morality of the Empire, while the other guy retained
the real power.  All of them recognized the moral decline of society and viewed
the figurehead of a cloned Kaless to be beneficial to bring the Empire back
into stability: a pep rally of humungous proportions.

>   You make a conclusion in your .2 reply that I will comment on shortly,
>   but I do not agree.

At least we will understand our positions, I think.

>>    However, let us not be fooled that this is not being used to package a
>>    humanistic message most of the time, and an anti-Christian message in
>>    the episode of last Saturday.
>
>   While I certainly can't argue against the humanistic message, are you
>   sure that they are going out of their way to single out Christianity,
>   or is it just a slam on faith in general?

What other religion has the promised return of its leader?  Not Bhuddah,
he's constantly reappearing in other forms through reincarnation.  Kaless was
not part of a reincarnated sequence.  No parallel there.  Not the others.
Only Jesus' follwers claim that Jesus was God become man, was dead, buried,
*ROSE AGAIN* (alive), ascended into heaven and promised to return by the same
route that he went back to heaven.

>>   But the icing on the cake was the ending prolog where Warf and Kaless
>>   talk one on one.  Kaless says (and I paraphrase) "What does it matter
>>   whether the man returns or not?  If his words are true and good and
>>   endure the test of time, then the man lives on."
>
>>   In other words folks, it doesn't matter that Jesus was just a man; his
>>   sermon on the mount and other words of love are the important part of
>>   the equation.  It doesn't matter that Jesus was not God, because
>>   religion is merely a moral stabilizer for society.  It doesn't matter
>>   what you believe, so long as you have faith in something, and if that
>>   is faith in the words of a good man, a phenominal teacher, that's all
>>   the better.
>   
>   The conclusion you make going from one paragraph to the other is the
>   part that I question.  I did not think that Kaless was talking about
>   Christ here.  I really thought he was talking about himself, and
<   encouraging Worf to keep his faith, even if he (the Kaless clone)
>   wasn't who everyone thought he was.

The character certainly was talking about himself.  I don't dispute this. But,
with the ramifications of the storyline, the parallels of the Klingon faith to
the Christian faith (with it's obvious differences in specifics only), he most
certainly was speaking not only to Warf, but to the television audience.  To
the television audience, among whom are people who struggle with their faith
("What *does* it matter that Christ died and is forever dead if his words are
good?"), he was asking the question to Christians, pseudo-christians, and
anti-christians.

>   Your words are true, and your concerns are valid.  I simply question
>   whether or not they apply to this story.

Do you still think so?
   
>   btw - if you want to take this response back to the CHRISTIAN file,
>   feel free to do so.  Though I would recommend that we take it to
>   another note - I'm not sure how closely it really follows the intent
>   of this particular note.

If I have time, perhaps I will.  We've gone off on a tangent a little, but
if this episode was dealing with the issue of faith generally, and parallelled
the Christian faith more specifically, then it raises the question of the
importance of Jesus.

What does it matter if the man is forever dead, if his words stand the test of
time and have the power to change people's lives.  I Corinthians 15:12-19. If
you don't have a Bible handy, I'll be happy to provide the text.

I would ask you to watch the next three or four or five shows with the added
eye that asks "what message is this sending?"  Then let me know what you think
of STNG, again, okay?

Peace to you too.

Mark

From:	JARETH::ASDS::PEACOCK "Nothing happens in life without passion... nothing.  26-May-1993 1643" 26-MAY-1993 16:50:28.52
To:	JARETH::TOKNOW::METCALFE
CC:	PEACOCK
Subj:	RE: Hi Tom.  I'd like to open a dialog with you.

   Mark,
   
   Definately food for thought, this discussion...

>   I would ask you to watch the next three or four or five shows with the
>   added eye that asks "what message is this sending?"  Then let me know
>   what you think of STNG, again, okay?

   After reading a couple of times through your most recent message, I
   see many valid points in your argument.  I suspect you are more on
   target than I originally acknowledged ....

   I will accept this friendly challenge... as my schedule allows, I will
   keep a more attentive eye towards the underlying message of the
   shows...   
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom

    
    
From:	TOKNOW::METCALFE "Adults are the biggest children.  26-May-1993 1653" 26-MAY-1993 16:54:14.06
To:	JARETH::PEACOCK
CC:	METCALFE
Subj:	RE: Hi Tom.  I'd like to open a dialog with you.

...wiping the foam from around my mouth.  ;-)

Hope to hear from you.

Mark

    IMHO, the show is for 'entertainment'. It might have some interesting
    things, but it ain't spiritual, it's a secular replication of something
    spiritual on some episodes. I like the show and don't think it needs
    any defense about its content. Hey its a TV show! The only thing that
    is beyond defense is the sometimes weak plots!!!! :-) :-)
    
    IMHO! 
    
    Jay

Interesting, Jay ...  dismissing something as 'entertainment', or 'TV' 
(even!;-) excuses it unless it proves to fail to entertain...

Meanwhile, the material it contains still goes into your mind, and affects 
the way you think and behave.  Things which an entertainment pokes fun at 
lose their sanctity to you, and there are all sorts of subtle insinuations 
which creep into our thinking without us being aware of it, or stopping to 
decide whether we *want* them to be a part of us.

Sorry to seem a wet blanket, but I enjoy my fun all the more for knowing it 
is not destroying me inside....  Many apparently 'innocent' things offered 
as entertainment have at their heart the undermining of things we rely on.  
Like the stability of the family home.  Marital friction is often portrayed
as humorous.  The reality is a deadly substitute for the greater degree of
enjoyment we are capable of entering into....

Before this gets to side track, I'd better quit before I'm indicted for a 
weak plot.  I don't know the source material this note is about... ;-}


							Andrew

    -1.
    Excellent point.
     
    I guess I *TRY* and not really take any of it seriously, but I'm sure 
    it effects me more than I even know.
    Ok, I confess...I watch way too much TV!
    
    	jay

    Notes 159.11-159.17 were moved to chit-chat, as they were off this
    note's topic.
    
    Nancy
    co-mod, CHRISTIAN

    Well,
    It looks like the other series DS9 is getting into the act also.
    
    This weekends episode was about Keiko teaching pure science about
    the wormhole and not doing any teaching about the the Bejourans
    prophets and views on the wormhole.  There was even actual references
    to the theory of evolution.  She was unwilling to bend what she was
    teaching to include another's view, but expected to teach whatever
    SHE felt was just pure science.  Sounds like the "politically correct
    agenda".  Everyone should open and excepted except those that have
    a view on absolutes.
    
    There was a lot of comparatives with what is going on today in the
    public school system.  They will teach what they feel is pure science
    "Evolution" but will not give equal time to "Creation".   
    
    This whole episode made me very agitated.  There was a woman who was 
    in support of the old ways.  Then there was some young guy who was
    of the same faith but held more liberal and compromising views.   As
    usual, the woman who held the stricter enterpretation was played up
    to be a villian and attempted to kill her competitor for the sake 
    of the faith and there was a bombing of the school also acredited
    to this woman.  
    
    They really made light of evil and the devil.   There was also some
    words from the commander to the effect of "It's a matter of intpretation
    it just depends on which side your coming from" This one really burned me 
    up !
    
    Of course the show ended but did not show how they resolved it all.
    Just that everybody is one big happy family now and no one is evil
    or a devil, we just have to be inderstanding.  YUCK !!
    
    JimGle
    
    

    There was a line in DS9 made by Kira that I really appreciated, that I
    felt spoke to our position. Sisko was talking about teaching only "pure
    science" and Kira came back that there are many who believe that you
    can't have pure science without faith to back it up. Unfortunately for
    this note I can't quote it correctly, but I was impressed that they
    were even willing to allow that side to be presented.

    RE: Nancy
    
    >There was a line in DS9 made by Kira that I really appreciated, that I
    >felt spoke to our position. Sisko was talking about teachingonly"pure
    >science" and Kira came back that there are many who believe that you
    >can't have pure science without faith to back it up. Unfortunately for
    >this note I can't quote it correctly, but I was impressed that they
    >were even willing to allow that side to be presented.
    
    That's and affirmative.  I suppose even the PC have to throw us 
    a crumb every once in a while :-).  I like watching the Trek stuff
    but don't like episodes like these at all.
    
                                                 -JimGle-
    

    In my opinion, TNG is 'spiritual' but is not 'godly'. Gene Rodenberry
    was a humanist and an atheist but even he couldn't escape the spiritual
    side of life as is reflected in many episodes of TOS and TNG. DS9 shows
    to me how things have changed since Gene's death. Lots of religious
    themes on this show, orbs, prophets, clergy and religious politics.

    I like the shows because they appeal to me on an intellectual level but
    if I think about them too much..... Well

    Remember, all is permissible, right?  ;-)

    Glenn 

    Well, I'm probably really late for this, and the topic is probably
    already dead, but here goes anyway.
      I've watched the STNG series since it started, however long ago that
    may have been now. I've also been watching the DS9 series and the new
    Voyager series. All seemed to be innocent in their spaeculations and
    their storyplots, but the more I think about it, the more I reflect on
    the verse that says (can't remember the exact location)
      "Whatever is good, whatever is pure, whatever is clean, dwell only
    upon these things."
      And in reflecting upon some of the episodes of the ST's I have seen,
    (quite an abundance might I add) that verse doesn't seem to fit in here
    very well.
    
      Additionally, in these last and very evil days, 
    that crafty serpent is trying to soften the beliefs of all the
    christian people. Do not lend yourselves to the wiles of the devil,
    because he is very sneaky. The underlying messages heard today will be
    shouted and believed wholeheartedly  in the future by those who listen to  
    it.
      Guard your hearts. As for me, I will cease to watch the ST's, and
    instead, concentrate on the one who gave his life for my sake, so that
    I may live.
    
    
     :-)  
    
    Joe
    

One beauty of notes discussions is that we can continue where we left off 
years later if we want to ... ;-)  Thanks for the point well made, Joe.

I make your reference Philippians 4:8, which is, in the NIV :

  "Finally brothers, whatsoever is true, whatsoever is noble, whatsoever 
   is right, whatsoever is pure, whatsoever is lovely, whatsoever is 
   admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy - think about such 
   things."

Actually for this verse I prefer the KJV (which I was brought up on;-) :

  "Finally brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are
   honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, 
   whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report - if 
   there be any virtue, and if there be any praise - think on these things." 

							Andrew

 
We sing that passage as a chorus freqently.  




Jim

	While this is not STNG, it was something that normally would not have
anything to do with God, but had the entire episode based on just that. The
X-Men, is a cartoon based on the Marvel comics storyline about mutants with
special powers who are out to fight evil. Well in this particular episode, they
had met a mutant who was also a monk. 3 of the X-Men were on vacation when they
met this guy. The townspeople were always trying to kill the dude because he
was different, and they thought he was an evil spirit. When one of the monks
told the townspeople about the mutant they have been seeking is at the
monestary, they came to kill him. What ended up happening was:

	Logan, who is one of the mutants, asked this guy how he can put 
	up with the hatred of the people. The guy responded by saying he 
	was one who was always filled with anger from peoples reactions, 
	until he found God. He said thru Him, he finally found peace. 

	Logan pretty much said it was a crock, and that while once he did
	believe that God was true, now he did not because why would God let
	all this happen to the mutants. The guy responded with, "His love can
	change all that. Thru Him, all will work." He went on to say that 
	instead of leaving, like he could, he thought God wanted him to
	stay there to help others see that mutants, while they are different,
	aren't evil.

	The monk who told the townspeople about the mutant came back and 
	tried to kill him. After a struggle, the monk went over the edge
	while the mutant held onto him. The monk said do your best evil one,
	and the mutant pulled him back to safety. The monk said he betrayed
	the guy, why did he save him? The mutant said what he did should not 
	be judged by him, it will be judged by God. The monk cried out to
	God saying he has sinned, please forgive him.

	The monestary had caught fire during the struggle, and after the fire
	was put out, the mutant said how everything was finally better. Logan
	said how could that be? The monestary has burnt to the ground, no one
	has any place to live. The mutant said that no life was lost, people
	have come to see that while he is different in looks, in abilities,
	that he is really pretty much like them. While the building might be
	gone, so much more has been gained.

	The show ended with Logan, who was against God, in a church, praying
	to God. 

	Talk about doing a 180 on a Saturday morning cartoon!!!  I would have
never thought any cartoon on Saturday morning would have done this, especially
this one! Talk about God working in mysterious ways.....



Glen

That's great, Glen.  I'm surprised that they'd do something like that on
Saturday cartoons, too.  But that sounds wonderful.

Thanks for posting it.

Paul

	Paul, I've watched that show for quite some time now, and believe me,
there has never been anything even close to it. To jump to that level was real
encouraging.

    I wonder who their God is... my God is not a God of mutuants, but a God
    of humans created by his Word.
    
    Sorry, don't mean to crash on the party here, but that's what I see.
    :-)

| <<< Note 159.22 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| I wonder who their God is... my God is not a God of mutuants, but a God
| of humans created by his Word.

	Let's see.... I guess you should know more about the show. The mutants
are human beings who have had stuff happen to them over the course of their
lives. While some look like everyday normal human beings, some don't. So you
see, our God would be the God of mutants. 

| Sorry, don't mean to crash on the party here, but that's what I see.

	It's understandable. You did not know anything about the show. But it's
weird, cuz the townspeople had the same type of reaction towards this one
mutant who didn't look too human. (even though he was)



Glen

    I, too have watched this show for some time. And while they have dealt
    with issues such as racism, sexism, and everything else, It was nice to
    see them not skirting the issue of God. And when my friends told me of
    this episode (I work saturday mornings and have to tape the show) I was
    skeptical about the context they would use.
      Seeing Wolverine (logan) praying was an awesome victory on God's
    part!
    
    -Joe
    

	Joe, I couldn't agree with you more on that!