Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    I believe the idea of "balance" is bogus.  
    
    I believe that being salt in the world requires being in the world.
    
    I believe that there is a tremendous difference between being "yoked"
    with someone and socializing or talking with someone.
    
    I believe that every drop of rain that falls...
    
    jeff

    ....a flower grows.....
    
    
    
    Jeff - help me understand the idea of balance being bogus.  I agreed
    with your other two points, but don't understand your thoughts on
    balance.  Help?
    
    Many thanks,
    
    Steve

    Jeff,
    
    Your statement is confusing to me.  Can you look at these verses and 
    tell me how you reconcile it with your statement, please:
    
    Proverbs 11:1  A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just
    weight is his delight.
    
    Proverbs 16:11  A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the
    weights of the bag are his work.
    
    Proverbs 20:23  Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a
    false balance is not good.

Hi Nancy,

I think the Proverbs that you cited have more to do with measures, weights,
scales, and fair commerce than with "balance" as in not swinging to far to 
the right or to the left on issues.  

These Proverbs are saying that God wants honesty, fairness, and integrity
to be the operating principles in our lives as opposed to greed, theft, and 
cheating.  Every aspect of our lives should reflect the moral goodness with
which God intends us to behave.  

In other words, don't be a hypocrite by parading yourself as righteous by 
publicly praying in church, and then, in secret, overcharge your customer 
by using scales that indicate that they're buying two pounds of meat when 
there is actually only one pound of meat on the scales - like the old pictures
of the old-time butcher putting his thumb on the scale to cheat his customer 
out of more money.  Or, to use another example, don't get yourself photographed
and shown in all the major newspapers and magazines, etc as being a great
philanthropist giving great sums of money to some charity organization and
quietly rip off you business partners or be a slum landlord who doesn't take
care of their properties or some other dishonest endeavor.

God delights when every aspect of our daily lives is above board and honest.
Underhandedness, falsehood, and cheating are an abomination to Him.

>>    Proverbs 11:1  A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just
>>    weight is his delight.
    
>>    Proverbs 16:11  A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the
>>    weights of the bag are his work.
    
>>    Proverbs 20:23  Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a
>>    false balance is not good.

Anyhow, I'm not sure exactly what Jeff had in mind.  Jeff ?

Leslie

In reading back through the notes, my guess is that Jeff was referring to
"balance" in the way that Mark's note 263.44 was:

>>I think the issue, if I may, is who is influencing whom.
>>Like television, you can watch some good TV (if you can find it),
>>and you can get some crud.  Some people have elected to trash 
>>the TV if they have found it to be a negatively influencing 
>>factor that pulls the balance (as we have been talking about)
>>out of whack so that values become insipidly muddied.  For those
>>of you who can drink alcohol without abuse, it isn't easy to 
>>understand how one chooses to refrain rather than struggle with
>>the balance.  For some of us, we may struggle more with balancing
>>than others do.  

Leslie

    I think the BOX blew up...I haven't been able to open the conf. since
    late last week.  That or maybe God doesn't want me in there? 8^)

RE:51
>    I think the BOX blew up...I haven't been able to open the conf. since
>    late last week.  

    The conference is fine.

    >That or maybe God doesn't want me in there? 8^)

     Could it be that God listens to the prayers of the 
     soapbox participants more ?;)
    
    Just kidding !

    Jim

    Hi Leslie,
    
    I realize what those scriptures are mentioning, however, let's take
    this one step further as we know Proverbs are lessing for living life,
    or better yet a book of WISDOMS.  
    
    Elsewhere it mentions that anything in excess should be avoided as
    well.  So if you take scripture and compare it with scripture, it
    becomes rather clear that we are to live balanced lives in every
    aspect.  What is your perspective?
    
    Nancy

    
    Hi Nancy,
    
    Leslie did a fine job!  I'm quite certain the Scriptures you referenced
    are addressing honesty and integrity.
    
    I had entered a big ol' note but then lost the connection.  Drat.  
    
    Concerning "balance" I believe it is a very self-conscious word.  I
    believe that our duties as Christians and the perception of Christians
    by the world should/will definitely reflect an "imbalance" in many
    areas.
    
    In general, I think we torture ourselves to find a balance sometimes
    which is neither necessary nor expected by God.  Sometimes the balance
    we seek is a compromise of God's standards that makes us feel
    adequately comfortable or helps us avoid discomfort.
    
    I don't know.  I just haven't found much eternal use in practicing balance.
    
    Know what I mean?
    
    jeff

    Jeff,
    
    Did you read .53?  I believe that we are to lead balanced lives [not
    balanced by the world's standard though].  I believe it is when we
    define balance to be "equal" that we come into a problem.  That is the
    world's definition.
    
    I did a word search on "balance" and the following are all the texts in
    the Bible which use this word... Let's study together [as I've never
    seen this before myself] and see if we can truly define what Christian
    balance is?
    
    Leviticus 19:36  Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just
    hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the
    land ofEgypt.
    
    Job 6:2  Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid
    in the balances together!
    
    Job 31:6  Let me be weighed in an even balance that God may know mine
    integrity.
    
    Psalms 62:9  Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high
    degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter 
    than vanity.
    
    Proverbs 11:1  A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just
    weight is his delight.
    
    Proverbs 16:11  A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the
    weights of the bag are his work.
    
    Proverbs 20:23  Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a
    false balance is not good.
    
    Isaiah 40:12  Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand,
    and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth
    in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a
    balance?
    
    Isaiah 40:15  Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are
    counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the 
    isles as a very little thing.
    
    Isaiah 46:6  They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the
    balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down,
    yea, they worship.
    
    Jeremiah 32:10  And I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took
    witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances.
    
    Ezekiel 5:1  And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a
    barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy
    beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.
    
    Ezekiel 45:10  Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a
    just bath.
    
    Daniel 5:27  TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found
    wanting.
    
    Hosea 12:7  He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand:
    he loveth to oppress.
    
    Amos 8:5  Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell
    corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the 
    ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
    
    Micah 6:11  Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with
    the bag of deceitful weights?
    
    Revelation 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the
    third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he
    that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
    
    

    
    Yes Nancy, I read .53 and I'm not in exact agreement with your
    reasoning. 
    
    At any rate, I think all 18 Scriptures you mentioned refer to honesty,
    integrity, value comparisons, justice and have probably nothing to do
    with the idea of balance.  I too agree that "equal" is the problem
    definition but there's another aspect - the self-consciousness of the
    word and all that that implies.  I don't know if my limited definition
    of the idea provides enough content for a general discussion.
    
    Please don't be offended anyone.  If you believe balance is a good
    thing that is fine with me (and God, until He enlightens you ;). 
    Personally, I find the idea prohibitive to a full Christian expression
    in any area of life.
    
    jeff

    Now let's look at EXCESS:
    
    Matthew 23:25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
    make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are
    full of extortion and excess.
    
    Ephesians 5:18  And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be
    filled with the Spirit;
    
    1Peter 4:3  For the time past of our life may suffice us to have
    wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, 
    lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
    
      4  Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the
    same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
    

    I'm particularly interested in the following verse:
    
     Revelation 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the
        third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse;
        and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
     
      6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure
         of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; 
         and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
    
    Why the balances here and what was actually being measured? Does
    anybody know?
    
    Nancy

    Jeff,
    
    If you are content with your interpretation of balance and it's place
    in your life, then so be it... but I'm very interested in either coming
    to your view, or understanding just exactly how this effects my ability
    to be IN THE WORLD, but not OF THE WORLD. :-)
    
    Nancy

    
    re 58.  I believe the third seal has to do with famine/pestilence.
    
    Kent

    But what was the balance for?  Okay so pennies represented
    "sustenance", but it was placed on a a balance.. why?  Why did it need
    to be balanced?  Notice not measured but balanced?
    
    Nancy
    
    

    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, balances were used when purchasing food and
    other items back in ancient times.  I think the main point here was
    to show that to purchase food would require alot of money due to the
    scarcity of food.
    
    I don't have my study bible with me or other sources,  this is just
    off the top of my head.
    
    this was regarding 61.
    

    ::humphry
    
    Any information you can give me would be helpful... I do have a
    concordance at home.
    
    If it is cost that is being referred to here, it would be an
    interesting analogy.
    
    Nancy

    
    Re 63.
    
    Ill check and see if I can come with a analysis of the particular verse
    from one my reference books.
    
    What I love about the 7 seal is their logical order that their place
    in.  Meaning this.
    
    1st Seal  = False religion and religious leaders.
    
    2nd Seal  = War
    
    3rd Seal  = Famine / Pestilence
    
    4th Seal  = Disease
    
    5th Seal  = Great Tribulation
    
    6th Seal  = Signs in heaven
    
    7th Seal  = Return of Christ.
    
    
    My first name is Kent.  I have what you would a very English name.
    

    Hi Kent!
    
    Around these parts of the woods Humphry was a whale that beached
    himself 3 or 4 times but finally made his way back into the ocean.
    
    Nancy :-)  Sorry word association and all that.
    
    Don't tell me that Nancy reminds you of anything okay? :-)

First of all, should we move this discussion to a topic of its own ?

Secondly, I have to go home right now, but I ready and willing to discuss
this some more later.  

So ... can someone start a new note entitled "Balance" ?

(Where we can talk about the Biblical references that Nancy has entered, 
and what we might also call balance in life - ie the concept of not
focusing on extremes, but walking middle ground.  Pros and cons of that
concept and how it applies to the various areas of a Christian's life.)

Leslie

    What is an ephah?
    
    

    Re: Note 273.22 by JULIET::MORALES_NA
    
>   What is an ephah?
    
    A grain measure.  Mentioned in relation to amounts of grain in a grain
    sacrifice.
    
    (I remember the word being spoken in the early old testament, around
    the bit where the tribes of Israel gave their sacrifices on a tribe-
    by-tribe basis... a very repetitive section that I would have
    factorised had I wrote it... ;-).  It is associated with my memories
    near the start of our recent driving holiday; we listened to the entire
    o.t. and much of the n.t. while driving).
    
    James

    
    Balance and moderation to the extreme!!!
    
    #24

Looking through this discussion, and where it came from, I feel that the 
references posted on balances are not really relevant.  They refer to 
physical balances, which are to do with fairness of dealing and honesty.

The Revelation 6 reference is underlining the scarcity and hardship of the 
judgement events of the third seal (as I believe Kent pointed out).

When Jeff & Nancy first mentioned 'balance', I thought it was to do with 
personal conduct, as reflected in one's attitude.

The danger expressed was that involvement with others would change ones
thinking to be like theirs - hence Nancy's withdrawal from soapbox, citing 
'be not unequally yoked together', and saying that a relationship with 
unbelievers is inappropriate.

I believe we have to clarify terms and scope, and that underlying, we are 
likely to find that we're in agreement... ;-}

'be not unequally yoked together' (2 Corinthians 6:14) comes in a passage 
where Paul is underlining the separation of the Christian in attitude and 
behaviour from the world's way of thinking - the 'new creation' of 5:17. 
The 'unequal yoke' is refering to situations where two people are dependent
upon each other - dependent for integrity in everyday dealing, decisions 
relating to morality and ethics...  ie - Paul is saying, the Christian
should have Christ within, showing him the way to live.  He can't also
offer a partnership in his life to be co-controlled by the standards of
someone who does not have Christ within.  This is generally (and most 
appropriately, in my opinion) taken to apply to marriage - what deeper 
commitment to interdependence do we have than this life-long covenant?  
However, it can also be understood to apply to business partnerships, and 
any such covenant arrangement.

What this verse does not refer to, is general association with the world,
in a non-dependent sense.  The verses which stress our separation from the
world are referring to our thoughts and character.  When the Word refers
to our 'culture' way of life, it's refering to externals, which do not 
affect our spirituality, and are tools to be alongside people in the world, 
and to show them God's love.

The example which springs to mind is 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 :

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone,
to win as many as possible.  To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the
Jews.  To those under the law..... To those not having the law.... To the
weak .... I have become all things to all men so tat by all possible means
I might save some. "

Not compromising the faith, in way of thinking, etc, but being satisfied 
with outward limitations and constraints in order to stand with those who 
are so placed.

There's a similar implication in 1 Corinthians 5:9-12 
"I have written to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral 
people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or 
the greedy.... In that case you would have to leave this world."

 - don't mix with people who call themselves Christians, but do not live a 
Christian life ; they're dragging God's Name in the dirt.  By associating 
with them, you would do also.  *Do* feel free to live a *faithful* life 
amongst those of the world who don't know the gospel (and therefore don't 
live a God-honouring life), in order that they may see Him in you....

Got to go now ... I may be back...

								Andrew

    
    
    >Personally, I find the idea prohibitive to a full Christian expression
        in any area of life.
    
    Jeff,
    
     Interesting comment. Could you give context to your meaning of
    'balance'?
    
    Yak-attack
    

    
    No.
    
    jeff ;)

    
    Hi Nancy, this concerns your question about the third seal/balance.
    I looked this up in my NIV Study Bible.
    
    Rev 6:5
    When the Lamp opened the third seal,
    I heard the third living creature sya,
    "Come!" I looked, and there before me
    was a BLACK HORSE!  Its rider was holding
    a pair of scales in his hand.
    Rev 6:6
    Then I heard what sounded like a voice among
    the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of
    WHEAT for a day's wages, and three quarts
    of BARLEY for a day's wages, and do not
    damage the OIL AND THE WINE!"
    
    The following are footnotes:
    
    Rev 6:5
    BLACK HORSE.  Symbolizing famine (cf. Zec 6:2,6). The
    sequence is thus conquest, bloodshed, famine.  
    PAIR OF SCALES.  A balance beam with scales hung from
    either end.  Weights were originally stones.
    
    Rev 6:6
    WHEAT...BARLEY - One quart of wheat would be enough for
    only one person.  Three quarts of the less nutrutious
    barley would be barely enough for a small family.  Famine
    had inflated prices to at least ten times their normal
    level.
    
    OIL AND THE WINE - Sets limits on the destruction by the
    rider of the black horse.  The roots of the olive and
    wine go deeper and would not be immediately affected by a
    limited drought.           
    
    Hopes this helps....

    
    I'm coming up with examples for my idea of balance and how it is
    prohibitive to me.
    
    For example, we say and hear people say that we should balance our
    activities appropriately between God, the church, our families, etc. 
    Well I have tried to do this for some years now and it has lead only to
    frustration for me.  First of all, there is simply not enough time and
    much too much effort required to try and balance so many things at
    once.  I find that over time, I've done nothing well but I've done it
    all poorly.
    
    Recently, I've discovered that I cannot both teach a Sunday-school
    class and also properly attend to my family/home life.  I love teaching
    Sunday school (and the learning that goes along with it)!  But my
    family relationships are suffering.  So, I really cannot balance
    teaching and family life - there isn't enough time (and we don't watch
    t.v. generally or entertain ourselves too often either).
    
    In general, I believe it is eternally more important to excel in my 
    performance as a father/leader than it is to teach a Sunday school
    class (or any other formal commitments that require significant amounts
    of my time).  There will be a time when I can excel at teaching (when
    my children require less of my physical presence in their lives).
    
    Maybe this helps!
    
    jeff

    Re: .29 (Jeff)
    
    Sounds to me like a simple (well, maybe not always *that* simple)
    matter of finding the will of God.
    
    If balance means us trying to control our lives (even in good things)
    as we best see fit, I'm dead against it.  If balance means letting the
    Lord direct our steps, to do His will in everything (personal lives,
    family, church, work, our "outside" associations, etc.), I'm all for
    it.
    
    Mark L.

    Jeff,
      Your commitment to your family is admirable. Your idea of "balance" 
    becomes clear. If I may be so bold, you are talking about how you deal
    with life and the balancing act that YOU require. You are not stating
    then that the same commitments would put someone else out of balance
    too. This is appropriate, for to each are given different talents.
    Where you would feel that balance of this nature was not good, another
    may find it quite doable. Neither is a poor reflection on the person.
    It *just* is the way it is.
    
    I would argue then that you have attained a balance in your life 8^).
    Because you know your limitations. 8^)  Something some of us are
    still struggling with, namely me.
    
      PDM_who_is_currently_overcomitted_uhgg

    
    Yes and yes.  
    
    Now, on the matter of balance in our relationships with others,
    specifically with our relationships with non-believers.  I just cannot
    find any meaningful way to express the idea that we are to be balanced
    in either our relationships or the time we spend with non-Christians
    and with Christians, etc.
    
    Jesus must have been totally committed to relating to the sinners while
    he was with them.  Do you think he thought about how much time it was 
    taking or how he was being perceived (of course he knew all of this by 
    the virtue of His being God).  Did anything suffer (i.e. his witness or
    his message) as a result of the time he spent devoted to being with the
    sinners?
    
    jeff

	Balances were normally used to measure precious things, but in Rev
6:5-6 it is used to measure food. This shows how serious the famine of the
3rd Seal will be.

ace

    re: .25
    
    Andrew - that was a very well balanced note!
    
    re: .29
    
    Jeff - that wasn't the kind of balance I was talking about - ref. .25.
    Thanks for explaining your point of view.  I unnerstand what you were
    saying now.
    
    Thanks,
    
    See ya,
    
    Steve

    Good note Nancy.
    
    jeff

Well, I was going to write in this topic, but you've all covered it so 
wonderfully well that I don't think I have anything new to add.  Andrew,
you took most of the words right off my fingertips :-).

Leslie

    Jeff,
    
    I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but thanks.  I was hoping to get
    some feedback from you.  But if you agree there's no need for feedback,
    I guess.   However, that's not true, even if you agree you could have
    other ideas...  Well if you had wanted to write you would have, so I
    guess I'll just go to sleep.
    
       ___       
      <o,o>   
      (   )      
      -"-"-  
     sleeping      
    
      Nancy

	Nancy,

	I do understand your position, but if I were to live that
	way, I'd have to cut out some of my closest friendships.  My closest
	friendships are with my sisters.  They're not saved (yet), but
	I certainly haven't given up.

	I just can't see me cutting off my relationships with my friends
	and explaining that I couldn't be friends with them any longer
	because they didn't believe.  I can't imagine what kind of witness
	that might be.  Rather, I prefer to try to be a light to them, and
	to be able to plant seeds.  

	When I got married, my sisters wanted to take me to a male revue
	prior to the wedding.  I was newly saved, and didn't feel it was
	appropriate.  I told them I didn't want to go there.  They had
	some difficulty understanding (I hadn't really told them of
	my salvation, though I knew they saw changes), but we went to
	a comedy show instead.  Later, when my sister got married, they
	*knew* I wouldn't go certain places, and again, we went to a comedy
	show.  They also know that if they schedule a family event for a
	Sunday, that we won't be there until after church.

	BTW, most of our close friends are not believers.  They've been
	our friends for quite some time (most of mine from before I was
	saved), and if anything, we've influenced their lives more than
	they've influenced ours (from a light/dark perspective).  We'd love
	to have more Christian friends, but our church is not very near
	to our home, and we just don't meet many Christian couples.  Slowly
	that circle is growing (through dinner parties with other Christian
	couples), but I see no reason to terminate any of the friendships
	I have today.

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    Please don't take what I've written and think you must measure up to
    it.  I believe God works in each of our hearts at the right time to
    grow us.. Ecclesiastes 3. :-)
    
    Family is never easy... many people lose their family when they become
    Christians.. oh the love is there, but the relationships change because
    the Christian is "different".   It's great to see your difference
    hasn't made a difference in how you are received by your family.  
    
    You see I don't think Christian *DOES* anything except be a NEW
    CREATURES.  And that change is what will cause the distancing from a
    circle of friends with whom you once associated.  I believe it is the
    others who move away from us... not us moving away from them.
    
    The above is in respect to *already established* friendships before our
    salvation.
    
    I believe that after our salvation, my note becomes more accurate.  We
    need to steer clear of *bonding* with those who are not believers.
    
    Nancy

	Well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one...

	Karen

    No problem with me, Sis.  It doesn't stop me from believing you are one
    neat, loving, Christian woman!  And a pregnant one at that!
    
    Nancy
    

    It can also work that the non-believer can be attracted to the
    Christian as a friend because of the positive differences he/she sees
    in the Christian's life.
    
    Rebecca

    Absolutely Rebecca...
    
    However, my experience is that the very thing that draws them to us,
    also pushes them away at times. :-(
    
    Nancy

    !<<< Note 273.44 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>
    
    ! However, my experience is that the very thing that draws them to us,
    ! also pushes them away at times. :-(
    
    	That is a truism Nancy. Look at some of the people that pop in here
      every couple of months. They get interested in a note or two. They
      carry a small dialog, then they leave, unchanged. - But they always
      come back. Why? There is something about *us* that attracts them and
      at the same time something about us that repells them.
    
      For the most part, I think it is that way in our daily interactions
      with poeple too. There is something about being Christian that makes
      people ineterested in you, and at the same time - afraid to approach
      you on it.  That is too bad, oooh, the loss. It is a delicate balance
      of not forcing a religious conversaton down someones throat, and at
      the same time being true to Christ's commandment to go out and make
      believers of all.
    
    
    
       PDM
    

    PDM,
    
    Your note .-1 reminds me of the parable of the Publican and the Tax
    Collector.
    
    By the way, some noters should consider "balancing" the time they
    invest in notes conferences against their time contribution to DEC. But
    then they probably type faster than I do! ;*)
    
    Until the next time I "pop" in,
    
    Yours for the Lord,
    
    Erwin

    >>                 <<< Note 273.46 by SNOFS2::MATTHEWS >>>
                              -< A Balancing Act >-

    >Your note .-1 reminds me of the parable of the Publican and the Tax
    >Collector.
    	Do you mean the parable of the "Pharisee" and the tax collector?
    	Moreover, I do not understand the corrolation? If you have a moment
    	would you kindly explain how you see my last reply in that light?
    
    PDM
    

    Correct. Luke 18:9-14.
    
    Please forgive me. Your note irritated me for what seemed to me (late
    at night our time) a measure of self-righteousness. I should not have 
    felt this way either publicly or privately. Morning light and God's 
    love shows otherwise.
    
    Erwin

    
    		"Thou shalt not wrest judgement; thou shalt not respect
    	persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of
    	the wise, and perverts the words of the righteous."
    
    						Deuteronomy 16:19