Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Hello Terri,
    
    I would be delighted to provide any information you need on this
    subject.  I would like to start by sending you a book (on-line) called
    The Great Controversy.  This pretty much spells out the SDA church's
    teaching regarding the papacy since it's beginnings to the present day
    and what their prophet, Ellen G. White, says the Catholic Church will
    be responsible for in the near future.  The book is about 3,000-4,000
    blocks long.  If that is too much for you then perhaps I could send you
    some pertinent chapters.  
    
    I was an SDA for 10 years and I have just recently left the church.  I
    still love them and have every regard for my fellow Christians within
    the church, so I will not engage in any name calling (or worse), 
    however the information you seek is there for anyone to see, and I will
    be happy to point out the particulars to you.
    
    Or if you like, you can FTP to anonymous@wiretap.spies.com and cd to
    Library/Classic then do a dir *.egw.  The one you want to get is
    controv.egw, but feel free to look in on the other books available to
    you there.  Since you will then have The Great Controversy on-line for
    yourself, you will be able to do a simple search for the words Rome,
    Pope, Papacy, Church, Reformation, etc. and see what is being taught.
    
    Let me know your preference and I will get the info straight to you.
    Of course, if you prefer to simply dialog, we can do that as well.
    
    God Bless you in your search for the Truth,
    Janet Brown

      Hi Terri,
    
        I am an SDA Christian.
    
        I don't want to talk for any Adventist, but I can only speak
        of how I think things should be.
    
        I believe that any Adventist (or any other person) should be
        willing to give up their eternal life (if that were necessary - 
        though I believe it never would be!) for any Catholic or any other
        person for that matter.  See Exodus 32:32, Romans 9:3.
    
        I do believe that prophecy, if interpreted correctly, does say
        some very nasty things about the Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the
        institution.
    
        But, then again, I happen to believe that Adventism will mirror
        the history of Israel leading to the crucifixion of Christ!  So
        I guess I'm not very flattering of my church as well!!
    
        Anything more offline, ok?
    
                                                     Tony

      Hi Janet,
    
        I think our replies must have been a few seconds apart!
        I thought I was gonna be .1!!
    
                                              God Bless,
    
                                              Tony

    Another question, is it dangerous to be sending my son to a school
    like this. Again, they are teaching right from the Bible. All the
    teachers know we are Catholic. Everyone is very good to us and 
    we feel very comfortable. They are not teaching Doctrine, probably
    because there are a lot of non-constituents attending this school.
    
    Terri
    

    Well, would you like to see some of our other literature?  I could post
    it here for you and everyone to see but some of it is quite intense. 
    And they do not teach straight from the Bible.  (I'm sorry Tony &
    others but I thought they did for 10 years and now I can prove that
    they don't).  It all sounds like good Bible teaching at a glance but
    when you read between the lines or understand where some of the
    information comes from, you will be shocked.  
    
    Shall I post a few things?  Or would that be a bit too much?  I don't
    want to hurt anyone but I think that it's important to know the truth.
    
    Terri, if you have a minute, please read note #416 here. 
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

With all due respect to Tony and others, I think you will find that strong
opposition to the Catholic faith is a hallmark of the SDA church, and Ellen
G. White (who is the church's founder) had a lot of negative things to say
about Catholicism.  I would certainly not recommend that Catholics send their
children to a SDA school.  It does not really matter whether they teach church
doctrine or not; there are a number of subtle ways that bias can creep in.
There is a very good chance that their perspective on the Bible, and some of
the interpretations of the Bible they give, will seriously undermine your
child's faith.

The way that SDAs, and indeed all Evangelicals, approach the Bible is radically
different from the Catholic way: specifically, any Protestant Bible class will
inculcate first into your child's mind that Scripture is the only authority
which should be consulted for determining doctrine, and that unless something
may be conclusively proved from Scripture alone, it should be rejected (as
opposed to the Catholic view, which sees Scripture as inspired, inerrant and
infallible but only rightly interpreted according to the context of the faith
as lived out by the whole church -- the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1
Tim 3:15) -- since the time of Christ, and which sees Tradition as an
authoritative element (cf. 2 Th 2:15)).  When you child begins to think this
way, he will be easily influenced by appeals by his teachers (and classmates)
against Catholic doctrine.  One needn't even consider the institutional bias of
the school; your child will no doubt run into _someone_ who will be convinced
that Catholic doctrine is unscriptural, someone who believes that they have
been saved from the evils of Rome by the saving truth of the Bible, and who
will pit the Bible against the Catholic Church.  Such individuals will
influence your child negatively, if he is not very firmly grounded in the
Scriptures and in the Catholic faith.

None of his teachers will share his faith, and neither will any of the
students, except on the rare occasion that one of them is also Catholic and
well-grounded in his faith.  Given that it is going to be a very religious
atmosphere, his whole environment will be not only NOT supportive of his faith,
it will be saturated with elements that will in fact prove a challenge to his
faith.  Not all of it will be intentional, but at the very least, it will not
edifying him in his faith, and the danger is good that it will prove a danger
to his faith.

With respect to the person whom you discovered who had nasty ideas about the
Pope, in my experience, these are not uncommon, either among SDAs or among
Evangelicals in general.   

    Listen to Eric, Terri.  What he is saying is absolutely true.  And it's
    even worse than he realizes because he can only see it from the
    Catholic standpoint and not as an SDA.  
    
    And everything your child hears in this school contains some SDA
    doctrine.  They are always teaching doctrine.  The SDA doctrine is a
    way of life although it is subtle in the schools, even transparent to 
    most outsiders, you cannot be a teacher in an Adventist school unless
    you know and agree with all of the doctrine.  Part of the doctrine,
    spoken or unspoken, is to evangelize and save everyone who is a
    Catholic, more so than even unbelievers.  Another part, again either
    spoken or unspoken, is to warn everyone about the Catholic Church.
    This warning is simply that in order to be saved you must come out of
    the Catholic Church because it is Babylon.
    
    It gets worse.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

      Hi Janet,
    
        If you post a few things, unless it is directly pertinent
        to the topic, perhaps you should open up a new topic?
    
        Maybe you should open up a topic that deals with why you
        left SDA.  It seems like it is something that you did with
        a great deal of conviction and I think this conference should
        be a good forum for your inputs.
    
        Truth ultimately must win out and Janet I think its really good
        that you are following the truth as you deem it to be.  It must
        have been difficult for you to have made the decision you did.
    
        I think you should share, but that another topic would be best.
    
                                                     God Bless,
    
                                                     Tony

    Hi Tony,
    
    I have no intention of using this note as my own personal soapbox, if
    that's what you're concerned about.  I have no soapbox.  I am simply 
    supplying some info and some pointers in answer to a request and I am
    backing these up with my own humble opinion.
    
    I don't think it's necessary for me to open up a whole new topic to
    deal with the fact that I left this church.  Note #416 should suffice.
    That way it will all be preserved in one place for posterity.  I am in
    the process of putting together a "final" reply to cap off my ongoing
    research.  The problem is that more and more evidence just keeps
    rolling in, so I will have to draw the line somewhere I guess.  Perhaps
    you should re-read the last few replies in #416.  I would suggest
    starting at #416.118.
    
    Maybe it's time to face some hard truths, Tony.   I only say this to
    you because I love you as a brother.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

    Sorry, I forgot......  Re: .0
    
    The SDA channel you spoke of is called 3ABN (Three Angels Broadcasting)
    and can be found on cable 24 hours a day.  We have it here in my
    hometown of Lancaster. 
    
    Also, you mentioned that the Elementary School your son attends is run
    by the Adventist Church and yet has Catholic teachers.....did I read
    this correctly?  May I ask what the name of the school is?
    
    God Bless,
    Janet
    :-)

      Hi Janet,
    
        I think you totally misinterpreted my reply!  I was 100%
        sincere and have no concerns.  I think my motives were
        reasonably pure.
    
        I haven't looked at 416 and so know nothing of any recent 
        replies.  I'll give it a look.
    
        I don't mind having my beliefs challenged, but I'm a tad 
        perplexed.  Just a few short months ago you seemed concerned
        with me for what you perceived as deviating from SDA and now
        you seem concerned for me because of being SDA!!!
    
        I am more than happy to share the gospel of Jesus Christ as I
        presently understand it to be and given the gospel as I under-
        stand it, I don't think I belong anywhere but SDA so far as 
        fellowshipping with believers of 'semi-like' beliefs are concerned.
    
        Janet...I think you know that I believe the heart-change itself
        is salvation and that all we are delivered from is sin.  SDA comes
        closest to that or (at least) some within SDA.
    
        Nothing (for me) captures the love of God in terms of doctrinal
        understanding as some of SDA does.  And that's the path I need to
        take - the one that most accurately depicts His character as I
        believe it to be.
    
                                                         Tony

    >  I think you totally misinterpreted my reply!  I was 100%
       sincere and have no concerns.  I think my motives were
       reasonably pure.
    
    Sorry dear brother.  What did I misinterpret?  Enlighten me. 
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: one or two back
    
    Silly me, I misread reply #4.  Too quick for my own good I guess.  I
    thought that "all the teachers know we are Catholic" got translated in
    my meager brain to "all the teachers we know are Catholic".  It's been
    a long week.  Please forgive me.
    
    In His Love,
    Janet

      re: .12
    
      Janet,
    
        I had no concerns!!  You opened up your reply by saying to 
        me: "if thats what you're concerned about."
    
        I thought you misinterpreted me by thinking that I was
        concerned with anything you might or had already written.
    
                                                 Tony

    Tony,
    
    Please relax.  No offense taken and certainly none intended.  I know it
    is difficult to judge facial expressions and tone of voice on-line.
    
    In His Love,
    Janet

    So much for the "I would like to have a very quiet conversation with
    someone" theory...
    
    

    	Janet's correct.
    
    	416.* is the proper location for general SDA discussion, in
    	my opinion.

    Hi Terri,
      Hope I can help. I went to an SDA school, and when I went I was not an
    SDA. My reason for going was two-fold. I thought SDA was cult and my
    best friend was one and second I wanted to leave home because my
    parents were getting a divorce. I thought if I left, my parents would
    get back together again....they never did. As for my friend My goal was
    to find something, anything that the SDA church preached wrong I would
    show it to my friend and this would get him out.
      As I attended this school it was the best time of my life. There was
    very little peer-preasure. We had worship both morning and evening from
    the word of God, not E.G. White. 
      When I enrolled into the school I was asked what denomination I was.
    Like many other christian churches teaching doctrine in schools are
    very minimal.
    The church does however teach alot of church history. During the first
    few centurys there were alot of problems. That is why the reformation 
    happened. Let face it the Catholic Church back in those days killed
    alot of innocent people because they did not go along with what the
    Church taught. The Catholic Church Teach more out of tradition Than
    out of scripture. And when I say that I say that not to find fault!!
      As any other Christian Church school if your son is happy I wouldn't
    worry. I know.....I've been there!!
      If you want to reach me off line for anything please do so!!
    
    Bruce
    
    
      You will alway see confrontation from different churches. 

    Thank you for your replys. Thanks Tony for the note off-line. I tried
    to respond but I'm having trouble sending.
    
    Friday when I picked up my son at school I spoke to the after school
    teacher about my concerns. She told me that she attended this school
    right through college and never once were Catholics or any other faith
    talked against. I do not have a problem with my son learning from the
    Bible. They are using the NIV which is fine with me. Right now they
    are studying Noah's Ark and he is also studying Noah's Ark in Sunday 
    School.
    
    I forgot to mention, that when we were deciding on which school to send
    Steven, we had a long talk with the principal at this school. I came
    right out and told him that we were Catholic and what my concerns were.
    He told me that I would never hear anything against Catholics or any
    other religion and if I did to bring it to his attention immediately.
    This school is concentrating on teaching christian values to all.
    
    In high school doctrine from the church will be taught i.e diet,
    Sabbath, etc. We probably will take Steven out at that point. I
    definately think that can become confusing. Our main reason for sending
    him there was for safety reasons. They offer before and after daycare.
    I did not want to put a 6 yr old on a bus and worry all day if he got
    to school or where he got dropped off. The Catholic schools offered the
    daycare also, however the classes were either full or we had no way to 
    get him there.
    
    I felt better after I spoke to the teacher on Friday. She told me there
    were many denominations at this school right through college. She also
    told me that the older SDA's and older Catholic's still hold deep
    grudges but that teaching Christian values and respect for others
    should be a priority.
    
    My only other choice would be the public school. And there is no way
    I would send him there. No prayer, no religion etc. At least at this
    school he hears Jesus name every day, has prayer every day and if he
    wants to speak about God its ok to do so.
    
    Maybe a little Catholic running around might also be able to teach a 
    few things of his own. His reading teacher told me that Steven was the
    kindest, sweetest little boy he had every met. Thats my son!!!!
    
    Terri
    
    

    >Maybe a little Catholic running around might also be able to teach a
    >few things of his own. His reading teacher told me that Steven was 
    >the kindest, sweetest little boy he had every met. Thats my son!!!!
    
    Hi Terri,
    
    I'm glad to hear that you talked with the administrators.  Your comfort
    and your sons education are what is important here.  Now you can keep
    an informed eye on what he is being taught.  BTW, I just loved your
    comment above.  :-)
    
    If I can help you in any way in the future please let me know.
    
    May God richly bless you and your family,
    Janet

    Terri,
    The evil one does try to bring confusion and split us up because then
    he is stronger. My advice is follow your conscience, that's where God
    gives guidence. Mother Teresa whom I have met personally has been called
    on a British television program Hells angel. This I believe as little
    that the Pope is being guided by the Devil. members of my family has 
    had meetings with the Pope and I know many who meet him daily including
    a professor in cannon law. I am can tell you this Pope is a remarkable
    humble and saintly man with many problems. He has also been nominated
    the man of the year by the Times magazine. Saintly people are more
    under attack than most. 
    Regarding your child: Although I am working and praying for Christian
    unity I would like to ask three things to be considered:
    1) How would your child feel not being instructed in the preparation
       for the sacrements. Reconciliation, Communion and Confirmation
    
    2) How do you propose to defend your belief to your child when he asks
       why the inconsistency.
    3) Can you have trust in anyone who is so unchristian as to make
       a statement of the Pope in this manner. He may think it but he need
       not make it public. Christ never spoke bad of another although He
       knew everything in their minds
       
    Your brother in Christ
    
    Peter  

      Hi Peter,
    
        I really appreciated the spirit of your reply, but I just
        want to suggest that (at times) Jesus did say some rather
        nasty things about the leadership of God's only church.
        Among a few examples, check out Matthew 23, the entire
        chapter.
    
                                                   Tony

    This may sound silly.......but, maybe some kind of unity between
    the two may come out of all this. I can't say enough about how 
    the faculty has treated my family. At no time have I ever felt
    uncomfortable.
    
    My son is very excited about making his First Communion (even though
    its another year (+) away. If anything, he seems to be more excited
    about attending church (Catholic) than before he attended this
    school.
    
    If I do pull him out of this school for religious reasons, what kind
    of an message am I sending. Pulling him out for this reason does
    not seem like very good Christian behavior.
    
    I can forgive what they think about the Pope (I believe they have
    been seriously mislead) and I believe what the teachers have told
    me that my son will never hear anything negative about any religion.
    
    Every night before Steven goes to sleep he says his prayers that go
    something like "Thankyou Jesus for everything and everyone especially 
    mommy and daddy and my teacher who teaches me about You. Amen". Then
    he makes the sign of the cross (Catholic - used in praying)
    
    Terri
                 

    Tony, I don't see that Jesus said nasty things, He said what needed
    saying to break down the eogism, the inner instinct of man so that "The
    Church" could have a chance to survive with a clear direction. 
    Without the guidence of God no institution could survive especially
    when it calls for self sacrifice.
    
    I believe with all sincerity that this Pope is a very holy man called
    at this particular time, when the world is in turmoil, to bring unity
    among Christians. Of course he is unpopular. It is easy to be
    unpopular, just tell someone the truth about themselves instead of what 
    they want to hear. Unfortunately there are others who take advantage of
    the occasion and use it to gain popularity at the cost of another: that
    is a weekness of man that Christians should try to overcome. 
    
    If it were left to the individuals millions of changes to dogma would 
    take place daily changing changes and modifying the changed changes. 
    The pope tries to see life through the eyes of The Master, he tries to 
    act like The Master and be guided by The Master to ensure that we stay 
    on the direction set by our Master and Lord "Jesus Christ".
    
    I hear daily how the pope is a murderer because he dosn't allow birth
    controll. No one can make me wise that I would agree to the fact that
    with our willingness to cooperate with God we can distribute His
    ENDLESS supply to feed His Family.
    
    Remember You and God are the majority.  
    
    Have as good day
    
    Brother in Christ
    
    Peter                                 

    CORRECTION TO 659.23
    
    Sorry, It will have been obvious to you but never-the-less herewith the
    correction to my entry 659.23
    
    > No one can make me wise that I wounld agree to the fact that with our
      williingness....
    
    SHOULD READ "No one can make me wise that I would agree to this. With
                 our willingness to cooperate with God we can distribute
                 His ENDLESS Supply to feed His family.
    
    Sorry!, some people make mistakes: I make more than most.
    
    Your brother in Christ 
    
    Peter 

    I've recently obtained some materials from the ministry below, suitable
    to sharing the Gospel in a Catholic (and even SDA) context.  They have
    some excellent excellent tracts, tapes, books, and videos.  Here's the 
    contact information:
    
    Mission to Catholics International, Inc.
    PO box 19280
    San Diego, CA 92159
    (619) 698-1823

Ahah.

Another organization to pervert the truth and lead Catholics away from
the fullness of the Christian faith.

/john

    I agree with you John,
    
    It is another example of subtle Catholic bashing and SDA bashing!
    
                                      Patricia

    .28
    
    Patricia,
    
    The standard for this conference is the Bible.  We do not espouse a
    denomination.  At one time or another all of our personal
    denomination's beliefs have come under fire in this conference and
    others.
    
    I think bashing is a very strong word to use... as I believe what is
    being struggled with here goes beyond any church denomination, but to
    the meaning of the inerrant word of God by errant men/women.
    
    Nancy
    

    Write to them at the address and obtain some information, then you can
    enter an informed opinion instead of a baseless one.
    
    Mike

    Well school has begun for another year and I have received information
    from the school on what my son will be learning this year. As I
    expressed in my first note my concern was what he would be learning in
    his Bible class. Being a Catholic and going to a SDA school I have 
    been following this (quietly). I noticed in all of the grades k-6, 
    the study of Ellen White was removed and any other teaching which was
    doctrinal. They seem to be focusing on acting like Jesus, ie community
    svc, doing for others etc., Bible stories, Adam and Eve, birth of
    Christ etc. and Prayer in the a.m (GREAT!!!).
    
    I also noticed that there are many other denominations going to this
    school. This may be why the slight change to keep things more
    "generic".
    
    Again, I'm thrilled and proud to say that my son attends this school.
    In just one year he has begun reading between 2nd and 3rd grade level
    (he's in 1st). They have a full reading/math center for children that
    may need extra help and an after school daycare that is wonderful and
    only $2.50/hr. can't beat that!.
    
    Terri