Conference yukon::christian_v7

    If you look in the Faith Movement topic, you'll find quite a bit of
    info on Hinn.  FWIW - Holyfield financed his 3-day crusade in
    Philadelphia too.
    
    Hinn has never been able to confirm any of his healings with official
    doctor's reports.  I sincerely hope Evander sees a doctor before he
    ends up being the next Reggie Lewis.
    
    Mike

    Who is Evander Holyfield?  You guys talk as though we all should know
    who he is.
    
    Tony, well, this is one area, where we are in total agreement.

 I don't know what's going on here, but I have a friend in my church who
 has more faith than a bunch of us and he's dying from cystic fibrosis.  If
 he doesn't have a double lung transplact right quick I doubt he'll
 be with us til October.  He's prayed for healing, it hasn't come..He's
 prayed for the transplant..hasn't come..He's still trusting in the Lord,
 his family has been saved and he's witnessing to neighbors and plodding along
 in life as if nothing is wrong..

 There are folks in hospitals with more faith than all of us put together..
 Why doesn't Benny Hinn show up there..If I were he, I'd spend every waking
 minute visiting hospitals healing folks..



 I don't know what is going on here.



Jim

    Evander Holyfield is the most recent former heavyweight boxing
    champion (lost his title a couple months ago), and also a brother in Christ.
    
    After he lost his last fight, doctors said he had to retire because
    they found a problem with his heart (left ventricle).  Evander then
    officially retired due to health reasons.  Now he thinks Benny Hinn has
    healed him so he can box again.
    
    Mike

> There are folks in hospitals with more faith than all of us put together..
> Why doesn't Benny Hinn show up there..If I were he, I'd spend every waking
> minute visiting hospitals healing folks..
    
    maybe because it would be in poor taste to pass the offering plate in a
    hospital...

    .5
    
    :-)  You got that one right.  Too many Christians are willing to accept
    a tingle in their body for some spiritual experience and then pay for
    it...
    
    Christ never passed an offering plate.
    
    Jimbo, I sincerely know how you feel... that's how I feel about my dear
    friend Ed Guinan who is dying from cancer at age 33... and wasting
    before my very eyes.  I often wonder if death isn't more healing then a
    life in this godless world. :-(
    
    Nancy

Evander Holyfield was the Heavyweight Boxing Champion.

I have seen several people claim healing, mainly because they believe that
faith must extinguish doubt before healing can take place.  Therefore, a
claim to healing is one of the ways to do so.  

My good friend had faith that God was going to heal her husband, who
died of lung cancer.  She had extinguished all doubt.  But it is as if
*we* are the ones who must WILL this thing to come to pass.  After all,
if we only had the faith as big as a mustard seed, we could say to a 
mountain to go throw itself into the sea.  (I had a friend take this
and sit down for a couple of hours trying to move a stone.)

We want to wield faith as if it was some sort of talisman, or magic wand.
We want to perform "good" deeds by healing people of what ails them.  But
it doesn't happen... why?  Because the focus has been all wrong.

James said:

James 4:1  From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not
hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
  2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain:
ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
  3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it
upon your lusts.

In context, whatever we don't have we don't have because we ask, and even 
when we ask, we ask *AMISS*, because we want it for our own purposes.

Hezekiah weeped because he was going to die.  Because of his bitter weeping,
God granted him 15 more years, which he used to ruin his reputation as a 
great king.  Too often, folks, we get the wrong perspective on things.

*WE* want to do things for God, rather than allow God to do things through us.
*WE* want good to happen to us because we are the children of the king.
*WE* fervently concentrate our efforts on extinguishing doubt without
determining God's perspective on the circumstances.

A lot of faith healing-seeking comes because of people who have found their 
focus drastically altered by some life-changing illness or accident.  When
imminently faced with mortality, we would be surprized how well our hearing
gets in regards to any hope that is preached or peddled.

Healing DOES occur.  Jesus is alive and able, and has as much creative power
over his creation as He did when he formed the heavens and the earth.  But
remember the lesson of the blind man who was healed *so that God might be
glorified.*  

It is a shame that even when this element of healing is exposed, bargaining
ensues.  "I'll glorify you, if you heal me."  We must remember that He
is God and we are not.  We are not peers.  He is not a genie in a bottle.

I ask the Lord for things.  I am His child.  Yet, He is my King and Lord,
and I know that He knows best.  Sometimes that's harder than other times,
I know.  But I pray that when we ask, we do not ask amiss, but seek to 
glorify God without bargain.  Is this not agape?

Mark

    Healing is tough.  Why doesn't God do it when we know it's needed.
    
    I'm just glad that it's God that's sovereign, not Benny Hinn.....
    
    

    There was a couple of large articles on this in the Atlanta paper
    today, as Evander is from Atlanta.  The article noted that Evander was
    knocked out (slain in the spirit) 4 or 5 times by a 5'7" man.  The
    article did make a point of saying that Evander was going to go see his
    personal physician to confirm his healing, but that if the physician
    disagreed, then it was just that physician's opinion.  Several of the
    boxing commission official's stated that Holyfield would not fight
    again unless he was given a clean bill of health.
    
    I am always suspicious when an emphasis is made on the amount of our
    faith in healing.  It's not our great faith, but our faith in a great
    God.  I also believe that God is the initiator, our faith is just in
    response to His initiation.  I heard people say that it is always God's
    will to heal, if we have enough faith.  This is totally off base.  I've
    seen the Father glorify Himself in the lives of dying Saints, who kept
    their eyes on Jesus and allowed His life to flow through them, even as
    they were dying.  I read a book several years ago by Paul Billheimer,
    named "Don't waste your sorrows", which dealt with this type of
    situation.
    
    I always wonder how faith healers know God is going to initiate
    healing, when they hold their conferences.  I sincerely hope Evander
    Holyfield IS healed (he did state that it was the Lord that healed him,
    not Benny Hinn), but I am skeptical of the way a lot of these guys
    manipulate people and seek to manipulate God.
    
    Bing

Hi Everyone,

Re: .7

I'm glad you brought up the 'mustard seed'.  It all seems so simple, if I 
only had a little bit of faith, as big as a tiny mustard seed than I should 
be able to do all that the Lord says, including moving mountains.  But I got a 
different outlook on this when listening to a tape yesterday. Here it is:

 "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed," said Jesus, "ye shall say
 unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove."
 Though the grain of mustard seed is so small, it contains that same
 mysterious life principle which produces growth in the loftiest tree. When
 the mustard seed is cast into the ground, the tiny germ lays hold of every
 element that God has provided for its nutriment, and it speedily develops a
 sturdy growth. If you have faith like this, you will lay hold upon God's
 word, and upon all the helpful agencies He has appointed. Thus your faith
 will strengthen, and will bring to your aid the power of heaven. The
 obstacles that are piled by Satan across your path, though apparently as
 insurmountable as the eternal hills, shall disappear before the demand of
 faith. "Nothing shall be impossible unto you."
		-The Desire of Ages, E.G. White

Should everyone be healed?  Should we have all of our prayers answered with
    a "Yes"?  Should everyone be delivered from a painful experience?  I
    remember a part in the Bible that shows us a different kind of
    deliverance:
    
(Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were about to be thrown into a fiery furnace)

 Daniel 3:16-18
 "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, 
  O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
  If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the
  burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
  But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy
  gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up."

God is certainly able to deliver us from anything, but sometimes he chooses
not to.  Sometimes God changes us rather than the circumstances.  These false
preachers who lead people to believe otherwise have a lot to answer for.

God Bless,
Janet Brown

	RE:-1    -*  I heard people say that it is always God's will to
    		heal, if we have enough faith.  This is totally off base.
    
    	III John 2 says "He wishes above ALL things that we be in good
    			 health and prosper...."
    
    	By His stripes we were healed. Not will be, were healed.  
    
        I'm posting this story below for a christian brother who had sent
        it to me.

		A preacher tells a true story about an old black gentleman
	who was caught in the midst of a theological debate in which a bunch
	of half-baked theological dispensationalists were vigorously standing 
	up against the works of the Holy Spirit, and mocking, and making fun
	of the tongues phenomenon, and the healing phenomenon, and the being
	slain in the Spirit phenomenon, and the getting drunk in the Holy
	Ghost phenomenon, and explaining all their little theories and ex-
	planations and ideas about it.   And on the very last day of their
	little exposition, they asked if anybody had any questions, or any
	arguments against their rich, theological can of worms and works.

				Well, this old black gentleman, who was 
	formerly the town drunkard, and who used get into fights, and was 
	always into trouble, stepped forward and started slowly strolling 
	up the aisle carrying an orange in his hand.  

				The whole congregation was aghast!  Women
	began turning their heads.  People began talking with one another.
	"What is he doing?"  "Why he is the town drunk!"  "He is gonna ruin
	this meetin'!"  Blah!  Blah!  Blah!  

				Well, the moderator who had kinds of degrees
 	and the natural wisdom of man, became uncomfortable and intimidated 
	when he saw him coming, and demanded, "Do you have a question sir?!"
	The black man said, "I most certainly do."  And continued walking
	forward up the aisle, and came right up on the podium.  Now... the 
	black man began to peel the orange, and to slowly eat it in his
 	face.  Well... the moderator turned red with embarrassment, and 
	made several exhortations to get on with the discussion, because 
	he felt that nothing, ( NOT HINN? ) was being accomplished by this.  

				After the moderator's face turned several new 
	and excitingly bright shades of beet red, the black man, who had just
	received a fantastic conversion with the baptism in the Holy Spirit 
	with the evidence of speaking in tongues, turned to the moderator, 
	and said, "Sir, was that a sweet orange, or a sour orange?!"  Well, 
	the moderator said, "How on earth am I supposed to know????  _You_ 
	are the one who ate the orange???!!!"

				"That is right", said the black man with the 
	utmost of humility.  "That is exactly my point!  I've experienced it,
	and I know it is real, but I don't know how you can stand up here,
	and judge something that you have not even tried or experienced in
	your entire life."   And with that, the old black man, strolled 
	down the aisles, and walked out the back door, - and that pretty much
	ended the meeting.

                                The preacher who tells that story?  Oh yeah,
	its Dr. Morris Cerullo.
	
                 

      re: -1
    
      Hi Rich,
    
        There's a couple things I want to say in response.
    
        Something can seem right if it is placed alongside
        something that is clearly wrong.  In this case, I
        believe it is wrong for people to act as these so-
        called 'theologians' acted.  However, on that basis 
        alone it is not necessarily correct to conclude that
        the 'contrasting party' is in the right.
    
        Secondly, it is not necessarily right to allow for
        yourself an experience.  It just is not right to eat
        every orange that is available to a person.
    
        Given the above two points, I cannot necessarily embrace
        what you seem to be embracing Rich.
    
        It is possible to prayerfully seek God about something and
        to (hopefully in faith) come to grips with something with 
        the help of the word and any other revelation (hopefully
        rightly discerned as such).
    
        The true story of Dack Rambo and a fair amount of others
        along with prayer and Bible study and other things has given
        me the personal conviction to not eat that orange.
    
        All the while I also would not embrace acting as the contrasting
        group did in the story you gave.
                                                  
                                                 Tony

    Re: the orange story

    I grew up in the Assemblies of God - healing, tongues, and the rest of
    charismania is nothing new to me.  I've personally experienced the 
    Holy Spirit's manifestation of tongues.  I've also personally experienced
    God's healing hand for physical afflictions of my own as well as family
    members.  You probably get the picture by now - I've lived it and still
    do though I'm not involved with the AG anymore.

    However, the next preacher who tries to tell me that I won't be healed
    because I lack faith will get a sermonette on Job.  I've heard some of
    these guys have the audacity to say Job didn't have enough faith.  To
    me that's downright blasphemy.  He's *THE* Faith Role Model!

    The problem with these people are they're caught up in sensationalism
    and emotionalism instead of sticking their noses in God's Word and
    grounding themselves in it.  Spiritual growth and personal edification
    are fine, but not at the expense of God's Word.

    My pastor's wife suffers from rheumatory arthritis.  Though they are
    only in their 30's, she's in enough pain that he has to dress her and
    take on responsibilities that she used to be in charge of.  They've had
    "faith ministers" tell them that she would be healed if she had enough
    faith.  People, that's an insult!  To be blunt with you, if someone
    said that to my wife, I'd knock them flat on their backside!  I don't
    know how he tolerates these loons.  

    People need to learn that it's not always God's will to heal.  Look at
    Joni and the ministry she has because she is paralyzed.  God chose a
    willing vessel to minister to the needs of people with similar
    conditions.  Yet the faith crowd would insult her for a lack of faith
    and ignore all the souls she's helped bring into the kingdom.

    I'd like to believe I have lots of faith in my Lord, but I'm not going
    to go against His Word in abusing it.

    faithers make me ill,
    Mike

	There was one time when I was at St. John's church in Worcester
watching Eileen George's healing service. She looked over in my general
direction and sai, "There is someone here who occasionally bleeds in his urine.
You have just bled for the last time!" At the time I didn't think much of it as
I was looking around and wondering who it was she might have been refering to.
After the service I went to the bathroom and there was blood in my underwear. I
have yet to bleed since. So at least not all faith healers are fakes. :-)


Glen

Mike, I really agree with you that not being healed is not always a matter of
faith, and that is one of the most major failings of the "name it and claim it"
mentality, of asserting that *any* failure to receive the Lord's touch and
healing is a lack of faith.  The example of Job is a good one, and I agree that
people get caught up in sensationalism, and lose a grounding in the Word.

But the problem is, like most false teachings, the "name it and claim it"
concept contains a kernel of truth.  There *are* many people who are not healed
because of their lack of faith.  People can become downright offensive when they
claim that any failure to be healed is because of a lack of faith.  But the flip
side of that coin is that we become afraid of emphasizing the clear need for
strong faith, or of proclaiming the relationship of faith to healing because we
don't want to seem like we're causing offense.  The importance of faith in
healing is also clearly grounded in Scripture, and if we lose that we're equally
guilty of losing our grounding in the Word.  If we become afraid to confront
someone with their lack of faith when there IS a lack, we've simply gone off the
track on the other side.

Paul

    RE:  .11
    
    >>III John 2 says "He wishes above ALL things that we be in good
                             health and prosper...."
        
    >>        By His stripes we were healed. Not will be, were healed.
    
    
    3 John 2 is the apostle John saying that he is PRAYING that Gaius, to
    whom he is writing the letter, is healthy.  This is not expressing that
    God always means for us to be in good health.
    
    "By His stripes we were healed" has to do with the spiritual realm and
    not the physical.  By His stripes our sin was dealt with.  We who were
    spiritually DEAD were made ALIVE.
    
    I certainly believe God heals and I have no problem praying for
    healing.  If God desires a person to be healed, He will do it.  I have
    experienced God's healing in my life and those around me.  I also believe 
    God can use someone, even though their motives and focus may be wrong, to 
    accomplish that which concerns Him.  It's like a person with great sales 
    abilities witnessing to someone.  He can do it in his own flesh, with 
    persuasive speech, and God can still use it to bring a person to a 
    realization of his need for Christ.  God desires us to witness in the 
    power of the Holy Spirit, however, by allowing Him to live through us - 
    loving the person with the same love that He shows to us.  In the same way,
    God may choose to heal someone through the ministry of someone whose 
    motives are all wrong (greed, power, etc).  I'm not saying all faith 
    healers are this way, but a large percentage of the TV faith healers are.
    
    I heard another illustration of the fallacy of the amount of faith
    being the determining factor in whether we are healed or not.  It
    concerned a middle aged blind man.  The man had been totally beaten
    down by those in the church he attended.  The church taught that
    everyone should be healed, if they just had enough faith.  The man
    would go to church and someone would hand him a hymnal, saying, "maybe
    today is the day you'll be healed".  I repeat what I said ealier, It's
    not the amount of OUR faith but the OBJECT of our faith.  Our faith in
    a great, mighty, and loving God, who is not boxed in to what we think is 
    what should be done it a particular situation.
    
    Bing
    

.11 smacks of an erstwhile participant and propronent of the necessity of 
tongues and other such things.

Good words, Bing, Paul, and others.

Mark

    RE: 501.12
    
    	Tony, I don't know about not giving a person every orange that is 
    not available to them.  I for 1 want all that God has for me.  God is 
    not the author of sickness and disease.  Jesus came to undo the works
    of the devil, and to give life. Yes, God causes things to work for His
    good pleasure. Yes, He can cause a mighty work though a person with an 
    affliction.  I believe people can receive a healing from a faith
    healer under the direction of the Holy Spirit.  God does the healing,
    not the faith healer.  Some Miracles happen to make the unbeliever 
    believe. If christians see a ministry where healings are happening they
    go expecting to receive a healing from God.  They recognize the
    anointing God has placed on that person.  I understand completely where
    your coming from.  I've been there.  Perhaps this note should be named
    "Skeptical of _Some_So-Called Faith Healers" not faith healing. 
    
    RE:501.13  
    Mike, Yes, I agree that there is an amount of sensationalism and
    emotionalism that occurs in these ministries.  And I agree with what 
    you have written except for your last sentence. Not all faithers
    believe you would be healed if only you had enough faith.  I consider
    myself a faither.  But, I believe that there a reasons why people do 
    not maintain or even receive there healing.  I'm sorry if I make you
    ill.
    
    RE:501.14
    Glen Hi, long time no see.  thanks for your reply.  Eileen George was
    operating in the gift of word of knowledge. I agree you can not group
    all faith healers as fakes.
    
    RE:501.16
    Bing, maybe I read to much of Kennith Hagin or E.W. Kenyon, but I do 
    interpret the scripture by His stripes we were healed to be BOTH spiritual
    and physical. Jesus's suffering on the cross bore our sicknesses and
    disease, as well as for our sins. 
    
    All in all I have to agree that 1 must carefully examine the big faith
    healers ministry.  Still skeptical yes, but I would not group what is
    happening in every ministry.  I believe God is calling His people to 
    minister healings if they believe Mark 16:18.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard   
    
    RE:501.14
    
    

    Note: 501.17
    
    Mark, though God will accomplish His work, and yes I do believe
    speaking in tongues is for today, and I do feel it is a necessity as
    a prayer language.  Let me ask you this, did you through in your
    comment to play devils advocate. I read your comment as to go deeper 
    than what was written.  Either way, Tongues necessary *ABSOLUTELY. Can
    a christian still operate under the Holy Spirit without speaking in 
    tongues *ABSOLUTELY. -Shalom

>    I read your comment as to go deeper 
>    than what was written.  Either way, Tongues necessary *ABSOLUTELY. Can
>    a christian still operate under the Holy Spirit without speaking in 
>    tongues *ABSOLUTELY. -Shalom

If you would prefer a clearer statement, I suspect you posted .11 for 
Greg Griffis.  That is how I read your posting (beyond what you wrote);
want to clarify as I have?

I do not understand the apparent contradiction in your next sentence (perhaps
a reword to clarify?); are you saying that (a) toungues is absolutely 
necessary [for what] and (b) tongues is not necessary for operating under
[the direction/unction] of the Holy Spirit?

Mark

    RE: 501.20
    Mark, yes you are correct.  Greg had sent that note to and asked me to
    post it.  I did not have a problem this time because I felt it was
    applicable to the base note.  To clarify my belief on tongues which by 
    the way is getting away from the base note, I will give a brief but
    hopefully clearer statement. a) Tongues I feel, (as a prayer language),
    praying in the Spirit, is necessary when I know not what to pray for
    a certain situation.  Yes I pray in english to make known what I can 
    express, but if I don't know all of the situation I let the Spirit pray
    to make that intersession. b) Speaking in tongues is not necessary for
    the Holy Spirit to work in a christians life.  God can use anyone or
    anything HE chooses.  He's no respecter of persons.  But enough of the
    tongues issue, and I'm sorry if you may have felt insulted that I
    posted .11 for Greg. I know you and he go waaaay baccckk. ;^)
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
     

	It is a shame when individuals take advantage of the
	greatness of God in an effort to get their own glory.

	Here's a bit of my story:

	Jamie and I attended a Baptist church when we first got married.
	I was baptized there, and it was there that I attended my first
	bible studies.  After time, however, we felt the Lord nudging us
	to move on.  We didn't really know what we were looking for, but
	we looked anyway.  While we were searching, I realized that I
	had not really turned my will over to God - I wanted to return
	to the old church because of the people there, and thus had not
	even prayed about our search.  One day on the ride home from
	one church, I prayed silently telling the Lord that my life was
	His, and that I would go wherever he led me.  That night I asked Him
	to lead us to the church where he wanted us to be.
		While searching, Jamie went to see an opthalmologist, who
	confirmed that Jamie's vision had worsened in his one "good" eye.
	We also found that the cause of that loss was a tumor on his
	optic nerve, and that he would need brain surgery to remove it.
	The surgery was scheduled, and we continued our church search.
	One Sunday, we attended the Holden Chapel, then attended their
	Wednesday night service.  That Wednesday, the pastor spoke about
	tongues.  Tongues were and are not a usual part of the services
	at Holden Chapel, but the pastor felt led to teach about them
	that night.  He talked about tongues being used in two ways - one
	was God speaking through someone, which requires interpretation,
	and the other was us praying to God (a prayer language if you will).
	The next Sunday, we attended a different church that a coworker
	of Jamie's invited us to.  The service was a long one, 2 hours, and
	I was just praying I'd make it through!  Partway through, though, the
	Lord began to work on me, and my attitude changed, and he began
	to fill me with a deep peace and joy.  Near the end of the service,
	the pastor asked if anyone wanted to be prayed for to receive the
	manifestation of the gift of tongues.  I found myself going forward,
	then looked beside me, and there was Jamie.  As the pastor prayed
	with us, I received the gift of tongues (not as a word from God, but as 
        praise to our Father).  I believe that Wednesday night meeting was one  
        of preparation for that day.  Now I didn't know anything about faith    
        churches, but I was to learn.  Jamie and I both
	felt that this was the place the Lord had chosen for us.  I learned
	a lot there, and even saw people healed by God through my laying
	hands on them, and was healed myself one day through the prayers
	of my husband.  Jamie's surgery was only 9 days after that first
	service, and I firmly believe that what I learned in those nine
	days gave me such hope and peace that I was a virtual rock during
	his 8 hour surgery.  I spent most of that time praying, using
	tongues when I just didn't know how to pray.
		Yes, there were individuals in that church that got things
	wrong, and often tried to "encourage" us by "reminding" us that
	if we believed, we would be healed.  However, I will not discount
	all that I learned just because it was learned in a "Faith" church,
	nor will I consider myself, nor the Pastor of that church a fake.
	She is a loving, Spirit-filled, Spirit led woman of God.
		However, there also was enough teaching and enough
	misunderstanding that we couldn't reconcile that we did leave that
	church.  We since have returned to Holden Chapel, where we believe
	God has led us.  I firmly believe that in February of 1991, that
	"faith" church was where he wanted us to be.  I also firmly believe
	that although Holden Chapel wasn't "the" place at that point in time,
	it is now.  Why ?  I think God knew I needed a rapid lesson on
	faith to endure the crisis we were to go through for the next two
	years (and still are going through, to some extent).  I also know
	that since then He has taught me even more to rightly discern
	the truth and the lies of some teachings.
		His ways are not my ways...

	I've got more thoughts on this topic, if and when time allows...

	Karen

	PS _ I would like to add one warning though, and that is to not
	allow your skepticism of "faith-healing" to forget that God does
	heal, and to attribute a belief in God's healing power to a
	"name it and claim it" attitude.

	Psalms 103 cautions us to "forget none of His benefits".  It goes
	on to say "He forgives all my sins, He heals all my diseases"
	(The Good News Bible).

	Some days I really feel there is much forgetting of his benefits.

    Karen, thanks for sharing that.. I really needed to hear just what you
    wrote.
    
    God Bless,
    Richard
    
    

	Richard, when you said "was" about Eileen George, were you talking
about that time period (where she did the healing) or were you talking about
past tense as in she is no longer alive? I know she had cancer, so I'm hoping
it's the former and not the latter.


Glen

    Glen,  I was talking about at that particular time, when she had the
    healing service.  I haven't heard anything about her for a long time.
    
    Richard

>    tongues issue, and I'm sorry if you may have felt insulted that I
>    posted .11 for Greg. I know you and he go waaaay baccckk. ;^)

Insulted?  No.  But I don't buy what he's tried to sell here a few times
whether in person or through another.  But the other people have spoken
to the issues, so I don't have to rehash it.

>    a) Tongues I feel, (as a prayer language),
>    praying in the Spirit, is necessary when I know not what to pray for
>    a certain situation.  Yes I pray in english to make known what I can 
>    express, but if I don't know all of the situation I let the Spirit pray
>    to make that intersession.

I can accept this for you Richard.  For me, silence on my part allows the
spirit to make those utterances I cannot.  Like Job, I clap my hand over
my mouth when words fail.  The Spirit does not choose to speak through
my mouth or non-english in my mind.

>   b) Speaking in tongues is not necessary for
>   the Holy Spirit to work in a christians life.  God can use anyone or
>   anything HE chooses.  He's no respecter of persons.

And I can accept this, as well.  I know people in whom I have confidence
of their walk to accept their word on their experience.

Shalom, to you,

Mark

>    	III John 2 says "He wishes above ALL things that we be in good
>    			 health and prosper...."
    

3John 1:1  The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
  2  Beloved, I wish you above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in
health, even as thy soul prospereth.
  3  For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the
truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.
  4  I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
  5  Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren,
and to strangers;
  6  Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou
bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
  7  Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the
Gentiles.
  8  We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to
the truth.
  9  I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the
preeminence among them, received us not.
 10  Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating
against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he
himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them
out of the church.
 11  Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that
doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen G od.
 12  Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and
we also bear record: and ye know that our record is true.
 13  I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto
thee:
 14  But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face.
Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name.

	Whew... thanks Richard. I wonder how she is doing? I'll have to give a
friend of mine a call tonight and see.


Glen

  Hi,

    I have given the oranges thing a bit more thought and the following
    are some of the thoughts I have come up with...

    I do not believe it is right to taste every orange.  Before tasting,
    it is important to _test_ the orange.  Give it a thorough inspection.
    Observe it according to the word and whatever discernment one has.

    With the above in mind, the following is why I have decided to not
    taste the orange and by orange I mean the charismatic experience.

    The experience of Dack Rambo has given me a perspective of _an_ orange.
    This man spoke of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  Of speaking in
    tongues.  And of his healing from AIDS.  His subsequent death from
    AIDS causes me to not believe in the orange he was partaking of.  The
    whole experience (as he put it) was lumped into one.  (By this, I mean
    the whole baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, healing
    phenomenon, etc.)

    Now, I see that some are saying this orange that Dack Rambo tasted is
    a DIFFERENT orange than the real.  But, I see some striking similarities
    between the orange he partook of and that which others refer to as the real.
    With both, baptism of the Holy Spirit and what it means is absolutely
    identical.  With both, the manifestation of glossalalia (sp?) is absolutely
    identical.  With both, healing as a core emphasis is identical.  So also
    is the feeling of warmth or something 'electric' or perhaps some very
    positive emotional feeling.  These are similarities in the experience 
    of tasting Dack's orange and the real orange (so called).

    Now here, I am placed in quite a quandary.  Mr. Rambo tasted an orange I
    want no part of.  Others tell me to try this other orange.  BUT, when
    I compare Dack Rambo's orange to this other orange, in all candidness
    they have incredible similarities - so much so that I tend to believe
    the oranges are IDENTICAL.

    My testing with the word leads me to a similar conclusion.  I believe 
    the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something God longs to fulfill in
    everybody.  The more one surrenders his heart, the more one allows the
    manifestation of "Christ in you, the hope of glory."  Baptism is immersion.
    It is a certain fulness of a manifestation of Christ in the believer.
    Christ is our righteoussness.  A baptism of the presence of Christ implies
    a baptism of the manifestation of the righteoussness of Christ in the
    believer.  (This is what I believe.)

    Jesus Himself said the Holy Spirit is the 'parakletos.'  He runs parallel
    to Christ.  He convicts of sin and of righteoussness and of judgment.
    To be immersed in the Spirit is to be immersed in a conviction of sin is
    to be immersed in a conviction of the character of God.  (I'm not saying
    there aren't other things; I'm just saying that this must be part of it.)

    I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the prophetic event known as
    the sealing - to be settled into the truth both intellectually and
    spiritually.  God is known so fully that the heart has been perfectly
    cleansed from sin.  His righteoussness just pervades the heart.  Finally,
    the covenant in Hebrews has been fulfilled: "I will write my law in your
    heart."  (I am not saying individuals have not been immersed; I am speaking
    of a baptism which I believe will occur with an entire _body_ of believers.)

    So how do I apply what I believe from the word to the experience of 
    tasting this orange?  Well, Swaggert tasted the orange and went on to
    commit some rather colossal sins.  I mean no offense to the man, I just 
    bring this up as partial evidence of orange inspection.  In other words,
    my understanding of the word leads me to believe that to be immersed in
    God (for the Holy Spirit is the presence of God) cannot possibly be an
    event coexistent with such sinful behavior.  Again, no offense intended
    to Mr. Swaggert.  Just relevent evidence in my sincere search to see if 
    I ought to taste this orange people implore me to taste.

    I'll continue...

  Continuing On...

    I have also observed stories of people in their spiritual infancy being
    immersed in the Spirit (again so-called).  Once again, this runs contrary
    to what I believe the word says baptism of the Holy Spirit is.  It must
    be something experienced by one whose faith submits to such a presence 
    of God - that is, sanctification has been an ongoing process for quite 
    some time for the more God is present in the heart, the more sin has
    been eradicated.  And the less one has submitted in faith to God (evidenced
    by a less sanctified life), the less one must be in terms of being willing
    to allow God to indwell the heart.

    Finally, the Spirit leads to truth.  The more of the Spirit in the heart,
    the greater one knows truth.  Of this orange, I have seen that people
    of greatly varied beliefs have tasted it.  Some believe in transsubstan-
    tiation.  Some are deplored by such a doctrine.  The charismatic phenomenon
    seems to exist in almost every denomination.  Some who believe in pre-
    destination, others who do not.  These are rather fundamental beliefs.

    Now I ask...how is it possible that an immersion of the presence of God
    can occur - all the while so little truth has been come to???!

    I personally do not see the above as possible.  Thus in this inspection
    of the orange, I have found it wanting.  In fact, I see the orange as
    a very potential agent in the mark of the beast movement.  An endtime
    ecumenical movement of unity based not on a oneness of truth, but rather
    a 'unity in diversity.'  A loose configuration of truths that will be
    in stark contrast to another endtime group who have come to a true
    immersion of the presence of Christ and know Him so well that the 
    differences in believe have all but evaporated for finally they have
    submitted so fully to Him and His teaching.

    Anyway, in conclusion, I stand guilty of not be willing to eat this 
    orange some urge me to eat.  I require a thorough inspection before 
    doing so.  And given my own sincere and Bible-based inspection (fallible
    though it may be, but I must follow the personal conviction that is mine
    and not some others), I have weighed this orange in the balances and
    found it wanting.

    Also, let me add that I am not persuaded by healings.  The last days
    will see a manifestation of healings on the part of the deceiver.

    And finally, I have discussed one aspect of the spiritual life.  Yes,
    I have been candid as to my belief.  But, it is my own understanding 
    that many aspects of my walk are probably fraught with error.  I count
    several charismatically involved individuals as born-again Christians.
    I consider this aspect of their walk to be deception.  I also consider
    many of them to probably be enjoying a closer walk with the Lord than
    I now enjoy - but not because of their charismatic experience rather
    in spite of it.  I'm just trying to say that I am a basket-case and
    that I am sure my walk (immature as it is) is loaded with false things
    as well.

    Taste not.  Inspect first.  Prayerfully, diligently, and according to 
    the Word.

                                                        God Bless,

                                                        Tony

	Tony, what a sweet analogy! I liked it. :-)


Glen

    Many writers (probably even more readers) in this conference seem to
    have experienced personally or at least wittnessed a case where someone
    has been healed by God thru praying. (In this topic I'm interested only
    in _christian_ healing.)
    
    I agree that any healing can be said to be a miracle of God even when
    you are healed by a doctor in a hospital.
    
    However when I read Bible I get the idea that healing thru praying was a
    special sign or miracle [gr. semeion] which was specially connected to
    preaching the gospel. And that healing was a REAL miracle. (See e.g. Mt
    12:10,13; Jh 9:1-7; Mt 9:20-22).
    
    My question is, do really miraculous healings still occur in our
    days?
    
    Maybe it's good to define what I mean by a miraculous healing.
    
        1.  I know that about 85% of all diseases will be cured without 
        any medical treatment. BTW it's an interesting  coinsidence
        that homeopathy claims to cure 85% of all diseases... ;-) So if
        you get a flu and someone prays for you and you get back to work
        in a few days I wouldn't call that a miracle because it is expected
        that a flu will be cured without medicine.
    
        2.  There are many cases where a disease can be cured via the
        placebo effect. These are often problems in the mental area. For
        example you can get rid of drugs by eating sugar pills if your
        doctor cat get you to believe that the pills are heavy narcotics.
    
        In the same way praying can be used as a placebo. So I don't count
        this as a miracle (at least not here when I want to find really
        skeptic-proof evidence).
        
        3.  If you have cancer and you receive radiotherapy or an operation
        and at the same time someone prays for you and finally you get
        cured, it is usually not a miracle (for me here now) because it is
        expected that many patients can survive cancer if they receive
        adequate medical treatment.
        
        4.  The final test is that there must be adequate medical documents
        that the patient really has had the disease and that the patient
        has been completely healed. An example would be a person who has
        legs with different lenghts and who has X-ray films before and
        after the praying.
        
        Another example would be a person who has had so bad cancer that
        he/she has received no medical treatment and the cancer has been
        verified in microscopical examinations.
        
    So I repeat my question; does God act in our days in healings which can
    be called 'signs' or 'miracles' [gr. semeion] and which are not
    self-curing diseases, placebo, fakes or expected curing via adequate
    medical treatment?
    
    	+- ilpo.

There are many.  There's a man in our church who had had back problems most
of his life.  He and several others (including the pastor of our church)
*watched* one of his legs grow almost an inch.  That was four years ago, he
hasn't had a back problem since.

A heavily documented case is that of Dolores Winder.  I've heard her speak
several times and have talked and prayed with her personally.  She had a
degenerative disease that destroyed the bones in her body.  The bones just
slowly disintegrated.  She had been getting worse for about 15 years.  She
had had several bone grafts in her spine to keep her spine from falling
apart, and she had had a dual "percutaneous cordotomy," which is a form of
pain relief for terminal patients where the nerves in the spinal cord in the
neck are burned out to eliminate all feeling in the body.  She had no feeling
at all below her neck and had been in a body cast to hold her together for
about 7 years.  She could not walk or stand, but could just barely shuffle
her feet if someone supported her.  She was almost 40 at the time, her body
almost completely destroyed, and was near death.  

She went to a Kathryn Kuhlman healing service (about 20 years ago) and in a
span of 15 minutes was entirely healed.  Her bones and body were restored to
full health, all signs of the disease disappeared.  The bone grafts in her
spine disappeared, she had full flexibility restored.  All feeling in her
body was restored, this is the only medically documented case of this ever
happening after a percutaneous cordotomy.  She, who five minutes earlier
could only shuffle along under someone else's support, was running back and
forth across the stage shouting "I can feel!"

In the words of her doctor the next week, after a full examination, "You have
the body of a 25-year-old who has never been sick a day in their life."

She has all the medical records and documentation to back the truth of this
up.

Paul

    Yes, these miracles still happen today.  And praise and glory to God
    that He personally intervenes in these lives.  What encouragement! and
    what a testimony to Him.
    
    One recent case -- my dear friend Debbie recently went on a missions
    trip to preach the gospel in Jamacian prisons.  One of those who co-
    laboured with Debbie was a man, chronologically in his mid-50'ies.
    
    He came to know the Lord in a hospital room in NYC.  The story goes as
    such:  He was a drug user (heavily into heroin) who contracted AIDS.  He
    also had liver cancer and lung cancer (alcohol and smoking major
    contributors to this).  Here he was, just about 50 years old, certain
    death his only future.  As he lay in his hospital bed, he contemplated
    committing suicide.  The pain and despair, the knowing that he had
    completely wasted his life and had no hope of recovery pushed him to
    this decision.  He recounted that just as he was at the point of
    swallowing some smuggled pills which would end his life, he stopped. 
    He looked up to heaven and said "Well, if you do exist, God, and have
    anything to say about my life before I end it...here's your chance."
    
    In the next moment, the door to his hospital room opened, and two
    gentlemen entered.  They were Christians, walking the wards and praying
    with people wherever they could.  They asked this patient if he knew
    about Jesus Christ.  He asked if they would tell him.  In the next few
    minutes, he had prayed the sinner's prayer and asked God to forgive
    him.  He asked Jesus to become Lord in his life.  The two men then
    asked if they could pray for this man's diseased body.  He agreed.  He
    was miraculously and completely healed of AIDS, lung and liver cancer.
    
    When the doctors came in, they were dumbfounded (major understatement). 
    The doctors asked what had happened, and the man shared that he had
    just asked Jesus to live in his heart.  The man reports that the
    doctors noted that he now had the liver and lungs of a healthy 19- or
    20-year old man!!  They could find no explanation for his recovery and
    discharged him.  This event happened approximately five years ago.
    
    This man is now a powerful missionary and ministers the gospel
    faithfully!!
    
    Believe, friend!  I believe that these cases may not be commonplace. 
    However the Lord has certainly been glorified through this healing. 
    The Lord has used this man to preach the Gospel and be a major
    contributor to many turning to salvation.  Why did the Lord choose to
    heal him and let others die?  I won't get into that discussion. 
    Suffice it to say that the Lord can, and does, heal people in this
    generation for His purposes.  I also note the connection of the gospel
    being preached with the manifestation of healing.
    
    My pal Debbie was absolutely bursting about this story.  But then, she
    too was miraculously healed.  She survived a documented case of being
    in a coma of carbon monoxide poisoning.  She was discovered, it is
    estimated, at least eight hours of being in coma before medical
    treatment was given.  She was pronouned clinically dead.  She was taken
    to the hospital where she came to consciousness, albeit in extreme pain
    for days and days.  (Carbon monoxide poisoning is carried throughout
    your body by the bloodstream, thus poisoning every organ, muscle,
    tissue of the body.)  But that's another story.  (She, too, is serving
    the Lord faithfully.)
    
    Praise God!
    
    -Greta
   

        While not a medical healing, this was definitely the power of God.

    A lady visiting our church was a chain smoker, she could barely make it
    out the door at noon to light up.  A week or two later she was saved,
    and was to be baptized that next week.

    She was expecting something special to happen during the baptism, but
    her only recollection was that there was a lizard floating in the corner
    of the baptistery, and she is terrified of lizards, so her main thought
    was how when she came out of the water the lizard would be drawn in and
    end up in her face.  Well the lizard stayed put, and her only though
    when she came out of the water was, "I can't wait until I can have a
    cigarette."  The sermon afterwards was on the body being a temple, and
    she was filled with the holy spirit and convicted not to smoke again.

    After the service she threw away her cigarettes and has never had a
    craving since.  My parents struggled for years to finally quit, so I
    know this had to have been a miracle.

    Sparky

I praise God for giving my wife and I a miracle child! After 13 years of trying
to conceive, and two attempts to surgically correct adhesions and scar tissue
from Endometriosis which blocked the Fallopian (sp?) tubes, we finally gave up
on a medical solution. Two years later, we attended a Pentecostal prayer meeting
and got anointed and prayed over for fertility. Soon after that, my wife
was found to be pregnant with our daughter. The baby was in a bad position 
at birth, so they did a C-section. Because of this, the doctor got a good look
at my wife's internal condition, and said that it had been impossible for this
prognancy to have happened !  We attributed it to prayer, and asked if he
agreed.  He did, and even put it in writing for us, as a miracle!

During those years, we also adopted our son. We had signed up with NH Cath.
Charities, and had been waiting on their list for 2 years (WHO SAYS PEOPLE
WOULDN'T ADOPT THE BABIES WHICH ARE CURRENTLY BEING ABORTED ??) We hadn't heard
anything, but suddenly one day my wife had the urge to clean baby bottles we had
been given months before. She felt like the time was near to "get the call".
At the same exact time, I was at McDonalds for lunch, with my Bible, and reading
about Peter and Andrew being chosen by Jesus, and thinking "When I get a son,
I'm going to call him Andrew".  (Now, we hadn't requested any preference for
a girl or boy to the agency). Well, when I got back to work after lunch, my wife
called me and informed me that Cath. Charities called, and told us we had a son!

SO, He gave us 2 great kids, and they're now 8 and 11, and they know Christ
personally.


Praise God!!!!
Dave

Dave, that's so wonderful.  Can hardly see to type.

And I thought that was a good name too ;-)

								Andrew

    .36
    
    AMEN!  It is wonderful what God does and can do.
    
    

    Several years ago my youngest son was diagnosed having TB. Believing it
    is Gods will to heal, I went into his room when he was sleeing in his
    crib, laid one hand on his head and lifted the other toward Heaven.
    I bound the enemy and sickness and prayed for a healing touch to his
    body. The POWER of the Holy Spirit flowed from my uplifted arm, through
    my body and out my arm that was on his head .I really cant describe the
    "feeling" except that it was like a warm river of lightning. Anway,a
    couple of days later we brought him back to the doctor(who had TWICE
    confirmed he had TB) and were pleased to see that his tests came back
    negative. Yes God is a healing God who still performs miracles today.
    
    Lets not forget to give Him praise for medicine. That in itself is a
    miracle, which we often take for granted and give men glory for.
    
                          In His service:
                            Sylvain

Great one, Sylvain!  Thanks!  I, too, have prayed for my children when
young ailments struck, but never had such a noteworthy situation.  The LORD 
has been very good to us.

							Andrew

    Hello!

    My pastor gave a wonderful message on healing a while back, I wish I
    could recall the details and references.  The gist of it was, in an
    eternal sense, Christians ARE healed.  Short of the Rapture, our bodies
    are doomed to decay and return to dust.    

    Yes, God in His Sovereignty does heal, and as committed Spirit-filled
    believers we've prayed for divine healings in every service I've ever
    attended.  God has healed sometimes, frequently He doesn't.  I'm not
    convinced it's due to a "lack of faith" on anybody's part.  In fact, I
    contend God taking someone home to be with Him through physical death
    is just as valid a "healing" as their physical body being restored to
    health for a few more years on this old planet.

    I believe God's perspective is much more "eternal" in nature than we'll
    ever be able comprehend, at least down here.  Just as our true wealth
    and riches that God promises lie in the "great beyond", so our true
    health and vitality lie there also.  Perhaps many Scriptures quoted in
    a context of here-and-now and more suited for the there-and-then...

    Just my 2 cents...

    John 8)
    

    Hi,
    
    Thanks for all the answers to my question about skeptic-proof healing
    cases. I'll comment some of the cases presented in .31-.39 in the next
    reply. Before that I'd like to provide some background info.
    
    I'm a born-again christian since 1982 and in my first years as a
    christian I didn't have any big troubles in believing in 'faith
    healing' (or however you would like to call it). 
    
    Then after a few years I met a preacher who prayed for people in a
    church and I noticed many of them fell down when he prayed. I asked him
    to pray for me, too. Then I noticed that when he prayed he started to
    push my forehead - first very imperceptibly and then harder.
    
    I got the feeling that he wanted 'to help God' in getting me fall down.
    So I took a step backwards and didn't fall. After that I got a bit
    suspicious...
    
    Then I got to know some skeptics and learned a lot from them. I met the
    famous ex-magician James 'the amazing' Randi when he visited Finland some
    years ago. He had a magnificent show where he revealed a lot of fake
    healings which occured in US and Europe. Sad to say, some of the
    fake healers worked in cleraly (at least so-called) christian churches
    preaching about Jesus and Holy Spirit. And they used clever tricks
    including hidden wireless microphones etc. to cheat the church audience.
    
    And not to be left without mention is a Ph.D. study published in
    Finland 4 years ago. I extract some points from the english summary
    here:
    
        "The purpose of the study was to investigate, from the medical and
        psychological viewpoints, the essence of religious miracle healing;
        what happens and why. The medical aspects were approached through
        follow-up and case studies; the psychological angle was
        investigated by means of MMPI testing.
        
        "The material for the study was collected during the summer of 1980
        at meetings organized by the Finnish Pentecostel movement, where
        healing activities took place.
        
        "The subjects [including 450 women and 161 men] reported a total of
        1,403 experiences of religious healing, 829 of which were positive
        and 547 negative (i.e. disappointments). The follow-up period was
        2-3 years.
        
        "Adequate medical treatment had been received in 1,182 cases out of
        the 1,403 investigated; all other ailments had been left without
        medical attention, and their quality was assessed on the basis of
        the subjects' own descriptions.
        
        "None of the aliment categories showed any evidence of forms of
        recovery that might be regarded as unusual, inconsistent with the
        accepted medical prognosis, or difficult to explain.
        
        "The immediate experience of being miraculously cured was a change
        in the emotional state of the individual, arising out of their
        physical, mental, and social needs and producing, through
        vegetative-physiological mechanisms, a subjective feeling of
        well-being, or recovery. The permanence of this feeling depended on
        the permanence of the individual's problems and the nature of their
        life situation."
    
    So there seems to be evidence that a lot of the (even christian)
    miraculous healings are either fakes or placebo. 
    
    I think we should be careful when talking about them when preaching or
    wittnessing to other people. And we should always refer only to cases
    which we personally know well enough if we use them as signs from God.
    
    		+- ilpo.

I would like to comment some of the cases presented in .33 - .39 as I think 
a skeptic would comment them...

RE: .33 (EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS)

>There are many.  There's a man in our church who had had back problems most
>of his life.  He and several others (including the pastor of our church)
>*watched* one of his legs grow almost an inch.

Here a skeptic would say: "Do you have X-ray films before and after the
praying, please? Otherwise my conclusions that the legs have always been
same lenght."

>A heavily documented case is that of Dolores Winder.  I've heard her speak
>several times and have talked and prayed with her personally.  -- --
>
>She has all the medical records and documentation to back the truth of this
>up.

This sounds so sensational that I wonder if someone has written a book or
something about this. Does anyone know?


RE: .34 (LEDS::FIESTER)

>   such:  He was a drug user (heavily into heroin) who contracted AIDS.  He
>   also had liver cancer and lung cancer (alcohol and smoking major
>   contributors to this).  
>   He was miraculously and completely healed of AIDS, lung and liver cancer. -- --

>  This man is now a powerful missionary and ministers the gospel
>  faithfully!!

This doesn't sound reliable. How do you verify that one is completely
healed of AIDS? AIDS is a virus based disease and I understand that after
you have once got the infection of any virus based disease the tests will
always be positive after that. Do you have more detailed information? Were the
HIV tests really negative??
       

RE: .35 (BIGRED::SPARKS 

>    While not a medical healing, this was definitely the power of God.
>
>    A lady visiting our church was a chain smoker, she could barely make it
>    out the door at noon to light up.  A week or two later she was saved,
>    and was to be baptized that next week. -- --

>    After the service she threw away her cigarettes and has never had a
>    craving since.  My parents struggled for years to finally quit, so I
>    know this had to have been a miracle.


A skeptic would say: "A typical placebo effect. I know a smoker who could
stop with the help of TM and another one who didn't need anything religious
stuff in getting rid of smoking."


RE; .36 (LANDO::HOFFMAN)

>I praise God for giving my wife and I a miracle child! 

Again a skeptic answer (not my personal opinion!): "Could I see a photo of 
your wife's internals so we can verify how bad the things were really, please?"


RE: .39 (MKOTS3::GELE)

>    Several years ago my youngest son was diagnosed having TB. Believing it
>    is Gods will to heal, I went into his room when he was sleeing in his
>    crib, laid one hand on his head and lifted the other toward Heaven. --
>    -- and were pleased to see that his tests came back
>    negative. Yes God is a healing God who still performs miracles today.

Hmm.. this is an interesting case. If there are documents of two positive
tests before praying and a negative test immediately after the praying and
no medical treatment was given to the patient, I can only say : "Praise to
God!"

                +- ilpo.

    .43
    
    Reminds me of Thomas. :-) :-) :-)

    re .44  I had the same thought.
    
    Bing

	"Once the healing wanted, now the Healer own..."  A.B. Simpson

	Everything we need is in Christ. The genuine healing it is not that we
receive healing from God, it is that we experience Christ the Healer. God's
healing is not a thing, it is a Person., Christ Himself.

	People may be healed by medicine, power of the soul, or Satan. These
are all counterfeits to the genuine healing. 

ace

 

	

Dolores Winder has written a book about her experience, but she does not
include the medical records in it, she only references them.  But she does
have them and they have been verified by medical professionals.

Regarding "pushing over:"  I heard a man speaking at a conference about
moving in the power of the Spirit, and he was talking about the temptation to
add your own devices to the Spirit's moving.  He talked of a time when he was
in a meeting, and received the annointing of the Lord in a very powerful way.
Everyone he touched fell directly to the ground, and people started to crowd
around him.  After 10-15 people had been touched, the annointing left him,
and he felt a clear command to stop.  But then he heard another voice, urging
him to just "push a few more over."  The emotions were running high, it would
be easy.  People would respond just to the suggestion, and no one would know
but him.  It was difficult for him to resist this temptation and to stop as
the Lord had instructed him.

Satan doesn't give up easily, and the more we move in the power of the Lord
the more of a threat we are to him.  If he can turn something from the Lord
into an occasion for pride, it's a tremendous win for him.  My guess is that
your 'pusher' heard that other voice, and went ahead and "pushed a few more
over."

Paul

Replies .49-.52 concerned the phenomenon of being slain in the Spirit.  
These have been moved to the discussion on this topic, under note 153.

							   Andrew
							Co-moderator