Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    
    Greg,
    
      Please explain your definition af vision.
    
     Is it a colorful display in front of you or just a thought that comes
    to mind?

No one would try to say that visions are extrabiblical.  Yes they are
definitely a way that the Lord communicates with us.  And yes we can surely
learn to be more open to these visions.  And yes I have experienced the power
of vision in my own life.

I guess this topic is specifically referencing the questions about your
comments in 276.133 about the book by Yongi Cho. (And thank you for moving it
to a new note).

I'd be interested if you could elaborate on the sentence from that note: 

"The book is
    	called, "The Fourth Dimension" and discusses how Abraham, Jacob,
    	Joseph, Peter, Paul and others tapped into the inner ability of
    	4th dimensional thinking to work faith miracles for the gospel."

Specifically, how does Cho define "4th dimensional thinking," in what way is it
an "inner ability," and how do we "tap into it" to "work faith miracles?"

From what you wrote in .133, it sounds like Dr. Cho has crossed the line from
expounding on the power of vision from the Lord to attributing vision to
something *WE* do, some "inner ability."  Note that I'm not saying that Cho
says that, I haven't read his book.  But from your description, it sounds like
he does.

Paul

    	I will have to read up on this matter a bit more, Dan, but I have
    	had many visions.  re is one that I will share with you.
    
    	On the 4th of July, I had an open vision of the statue of Liberty.
    	Her jade-green face was open before my eyes.  My physical senses
    	were not suspended.  But, I could see her.  Obviously, it was no
    	thought that I was trying to conjure up, because I do not care 
    	about the statue of liberty.  anyways...
    	Suddenly, her crown became a crown of thorns, and her face changed
    	into the face of Jesus on the cross.
    
    			  This vision came twice to me.  Therefore,
    	I believe the thing to be established.  My frank and honest belief
    	is that Jesus Christ is the statue of liberty over this nation that
    	we pray so diligently for, and love so much, and that because He
    	has established this nation in His love, He will not abandon us
    	despite the fact that this nation has been so terribly sinful.  
    	Lord, your people have humbled themselves, and prayed, they have 
    	sought your face and turned from their wicked way.  From heaven
    	hear, O Lord, and heal our land!  I believe that He will do this
    	thing that I have prayed for, and is already at work turning this
    	nation around.
    								/Greg

	Paul,

>But .133 doesn't sound like that at all.  "Fourth dimensional thinking" sounds
>like some sort of way-out New Age idea, and the concept that Peter and Paul
>"used" this kind of "thinking," as if it were somehow under their control, is
>even farther away from the Truth of the Bible.

>Now I haven't read Cho's book, so "Fourth dimensional thinking" may just be a
>phrase he has coined to describe manifestations of the Lord in our thoughts,
>and when he speaks of people "using" this "thinking," he may be describing
>becoming more open to the Lord.  In other words, the book itself may be
>perfectly in accord with Biblical teaching.

>But I'd have to say that I don't get that impression at all from .133, and
>heretical doesn't seem too strong a word for what that note seems to be saying.
>=============================================================================
		In pastor Cho' book he explains the importance of "seeing"
	oneself being successful, seeing oneself posessing the promises of
	God.  As a for instance, Pastor Cho asked God for a desk, a bicycle,
	and a chair.  He prayed for three months about it and got nothing.
	Then, after quite awhile, he got _REALLY_ discouraged, and upset
	about it, and prayed, "Dear Father God, I've prayed for all this
	time for these things.  And your Word says that we should have the
	desires of our heart.  And, here it is, and I still do not have the
	petitions I asked for."  Then the Lord said to him, (paraphrased
	from what I remember), "My Son, you have done what so many of my
	children do.  They ask for things, but because their requests are
	so general, I cannot grant them.  Do you realize how many different
	kinds of desks, and chairs, and bicycles there are in the world?"  
	Then Pastor Cho became very specific, he said, "Dear Father God,
	I would like to have an American bicycle, a desk made of Phillipine
	mahogany, and a chair with swivels on the bottom low to the ground
	like a fancy executive..." ...and he told God all the details of
	what he was praying for.  Then... to top it off, he announced it
	to his congregation that he received these things!  This seemed
	like the biggest mistake he had ever made in his life, because 
	when people came to see what he had received from God, they mocked
	him.  He explained to them, "No.  I have not physically received 
	it, but I have it.  He then gave parallels to being pregnant, i.e.,
	having a baby that is not manifested.  And then people came to 
	pat the stomach of the pregnant pastor!  Well... within three
	months, God's hand moved!!!  A missionary gave him an American
	bicycle.  He received his desk made of Phillipine mahogany.  And
	the chair was made in Japan.  Do I believe what Pastor Cho said
	about this?  Well... I have a black Mercedes-Benz... ( Had I not
    	seen it pulling right up in front of my eyes in an open vision,
    	I might not be so bold as to say so, but... its _mine_. )

								/Greg

    
    			The greatest vision of all is always the vision
    	of Jesus.  On Easter Sunday, I went up for prayer at the altar.
    	One of my brothers layed hands on me, and I could see Jesus and
    	he was absolutely beautiful.  He was riding into Jerusalem, and
    	it was a moment of triumph.  
    
    			One day, I was at the altar ministry laying 
    	praying for people, and I had an open vision of Jesus.
    
    			One day, I stood at the sink with my wife, and
    	I could see Jesus looking through the window.
    
    			I've had several visions of Jesus today.  And,
    	yesterday, too.  Often, there are accompanying miracles.  Like
    	yesterday, when I saw Him, my heart suddenly burned within me.,.
    	It is a continual thing.
    
    			I would not trade these visions for all the tea
    	in China, and all the gold in Fort Knox - combined.
    

    
    		Joel and Peter ( from acts ) said:
    
    		"Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall
    	dream dreams".

    And Jeremiah said,
    
    "The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath
    my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the
    wheat? saith the LORD." Jeremiah 23:28
    

    What I find interesting (not saying your experiences aren't real,
    Greg), is that when Isaiah, Daniel, John, etc., had visions of the
    L-rd, they describe "falling at His feet as though dead", or a great
    sense of unworthiness "Woe is me, I'm undone!   I'm a man of unclean
    thought and words!", etc.
    
    Many people talk of having visions of someone they are convinced is the
    L-rd, but their reaction isn't the same.  Not that it has to be, but I
    find it interesting - as interesting as many of the utterances that are
    referred to as "prophecies" that talk about how G-d is going to bless
    this one with so much money and that one with the new house and the
    other one with vindication from some slander, etc. etc.; but didn't the
    prophets spend an awful lot of time warning people to steer clear from
    sin and to repent?
    
    I guess my point is, from what has been described in this topic as
    Cho's understanding of "tapping in" to the 4th dimension and
    "visualization", I not only find it extra-Biblical (itself not
    necessarily a problem), but *anti*-Biblical - clearly, a problem.
    
    Just my opinion, but I don't see this jiving with the Word.  I'm
    interested in hearing more, but I would suggest that all of us listen
    (and speak) with caution.
    
    Steve

 RE .4



 Greg, are you saying, then, that those who don't have a job, for example,
and have been praying for same, or lacking in some of the other basics
of life (health, financial, etc) are not praying properly?  

And, doesn't God know what we need before we ask it..seems a bit strange
that he would "tease" us by saying we can't have this or that til we specify
exactly what we want.


I have  a lot of problems with that theology.




Jim

    I've heard of this kind of practice before the "Name it and Claim it"
    crowd... I've also heard of a lot of dissatisfied folks in this arena.
    
    What about the mother with the child dying of lukemia and she names and
    claims healing with full faith, but the little child dies?  
    
    Prayer is not a playground for receiving goodies.  Fancy cars, swivel
    chairs, and such should be considered blessings from God, but not
    necessities.   God commands us to be "content in whatsover state" we
    are in and that includes proverty.  He only promises his children,
    food, clothing and raiment.
    
    I believe that visualization can be used to edify oneself towards God,
    but I believe that visualization to consume it upon our own lusts is
    sin.
    
    If it is God's will that you have an INFINITY and your praying for a
    car, you will get the INFINITY, but if you visualize an INFINITY and
    get a BUG... did God fail?
    
    Nancy

    Interesting to me is that .0 specifies two visions that both are
    directly related to someone being evangelized.  In my opinion, if a
    vision is given, it would make sense that it would directly be used to
    evangelize someone and would be characterized by humility and worship
    before Christ. 
    
    Secondly, Greg, you stated you saw visions of Jesus.  What does he look
    like?
    
    Thanks, 
    Robert

>    Secondly, Greg, you stated you saw visions of Jesus.  What does he look
>    like?
    
    Also, what if someone else's vision of Jesus doesn't agree?  How do you
    decide who needs glasses?
    
    Sounds like some sort of a standard is needed.  Something written down,
    that everyone can agree to and measure things by.  Say, you don't
    suppose....
    
    Mark L.

re: .11
    
    > Interesting to me is that .0 specifies two visions that both are
    > directly related to someone being evangelized.  In my opinion, if a
    > vision is given, it would make sense that it would directly be used to
    > evangelize someone and would be characterized by humility and worship
    > before Christ. 
    
    Scripture says that spiritual gifts are given to edify the Christian
    Body; this may include building it up through direct evangelization,
    but it can also be for purposes of leadership, discernment, or meeting
    the needs in some other way.
    
    Visions are one of the many ways God 'speaks' to us and there are
    examples throughout scripture and for different purposes.  
    
    Mary

Hiya,

I can remember someone warning me a long time ago, "be careful what you pray 
for, you might get it".
I have had a vision during prayer time with our home bible study. It was just 
that, purely visual, no sound, no words to explain what I was seeing, but I 
_knew_. At first I thought I was going nuts, and was loathe to discuss it with 
the group, but when I did, I was told what I had seen was the truth. Scary.

Chele

>Note 291.9                           VISIONS                             9 of 14
>CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?"        21 lines  20-OCT-1993 16:57
>
>RE .4
>
> Greg, are you saying, then, that those who don't have a job, for example,
>and have been praying for same, or lacking in some of the other basics
>of life (health, financial, etc) are not praying properly?  
>
>And, doesn't God know what we need before we ask it..seems a bit strange
>that he would "tease" us by saying we can't have this or that til we specify
>exactly what we want.
>
>
>I have  a lot of problems with that theology.
>
>
>Jim
>

I've got major problems with this too Jim. While I have no doubt that 
many *supernatural experiences* (visions, signs, miracles, healing) are
from God I believe as Christians we should not look at these experiences
as they are for us all and can be obtained by applying a standard code 
of practise, i.e. IF PRAYERTIME>X THEN ME=ME+GOODIES; END IF;

I believe when God speaks to us or shows us something we should be
sensitive how we should go about telling others about such things.
WHY ? I know many people who's faith have been destroyed due to people
boasting about what God gave/showed them. It's a bit like telling the guy
who works beside you and who does the same job as you that you're on
twice his salary. His reaction is natuarally that he's not doing his
job well enough or not liked by his employer/boss.

God has showed me things (you could call them visions) which have been
very real and uplifting to me and only me. While it may benefit or
uplift others by sharing them it is important that we don't emphisise
the "God did this for me" part of it. 

One of the greatest dangers of the gifts that God gives us is that
we turn our Christianity upside down. To me Christianity is all
about "giving back to God", instead we can put the emphisis on 
"receiving from God". While there are many things each of us 
receive from God, by talking,preacing, or even boasting about 
such things may hinder people of a weaker faith as the emphisis is
on God as being some kind of sugar daddy who hands out sweeties to 
those who do his will.

My tuppenceworth,
Erich
    

There are two *ENTIRELY* separate things being mixed up in this topic, both
being called "vision."  There's "vision" and there's "visualization."  The
difference lies in what direction the communication is moving.  In "vision,"
God is communicating with us through a mental image or picture.  In
"visualization," we are trying to communicate to God what we want from Him.

"Vision" is strongly biblically grounded.  Examples abound of people having
visions given by the Lord to communicate something to them.  Two examples of
this, which were used previously in this topic somewhere, are Paul's vision of
the man in Macedonia calling for help, and Peter's vision of the sheet full of
living creatures which led him to accept Cornelius as a Christian brother.  In
both of these cases, and in all other biblical case of which I am aware, the
person was not trying to do anything on their own, God was communicating
something to them.  There are many contemporary examples also, and I think
nearly everyone in this conference would affirm the value of vision from the
Lord.

But "visualization' is another thing altogether.  This is what you appear to be
describing where we somehow "visualize" a picture of what we want, and that
"visualization" gets God to act for us.  This turns God into a cosmic vending
machine, where we put our "visualizations" in one end and get what we want out
the other.  It puts us in control instead of letting God be in control.  It
smacks heavily of new age teaching, and it heaps guilt on anyone whose prayers
are not answered because they didn't pray well enough.  

I agree with Steve that this is not merely extra-biblical but anti-biblical.
Could you cite one biblical account of where someone "names it and claims it"
before God?  Where someone uses the "fourth dimension" under their own control
to get God to do what they want Him to?

Paul

    
    There are:
    	      		a.) open visions
    	       		b.) visualizations
    	       		c.) imaginations
    	       		d.) dreams
    	       		e.) closed visions
    	       		f.) translations
		
    		For instance, Enoch walked with God, and then he was not
    	for God took him.
    
    		Or, casting down imaginations and every high thing that
    	exalts itself against God and bringing every thought into the
    	captivity of the knowledge of Christ Jesus.
    
    		My confidence is in God who raises the dead and calls 
    	those things which be not as though they were.
                                                      

    Greg,
    
>    		My confidence is in God who raises the dead and calls 
>    	those things which be not as though they were.
    
    That sounds very noble and lofty, but if we are seeking out or
    attempting to justify experiences that are not based in His word (or
    contrary to His word), our confidence can *not* be in God.  It may be
    in someone else's writing, it may be in someone's experience, but it
    will not be in God.
    
    Now, let me say, I agree that God has and can use visions and dreams. 
    However, they *must* be put to the test against His word, and *never*
    used as an excuse to do or espouse something contrary to His word or
    the principals that He gives in it.
    
    I know one *great* servant of God, who when asked "Have you ever had a
    vision?", would answer, "If I did, I wouldn't tell you about it." 
    (Think about this answer in conjunction with 2 Cor 12.)
    
    Mark L.

    
    			In looking at this topic, there are several
    	things about _how_ to look at it that take precedence over
    	actually looking at it.
    
    	a.) Let all things be done unto edification.
    
    	b.) Be anxious for nothing, but by prayer and supplication,
    		let your requests be made known unto God, and the 
    		peace which passes understanding will fill your
    		heart and mind through Christ Jesus.
    
    			Its an important topic, and yes, it should
    	agree with the Word, -but, I sense a spirit/attitude right 
    	off the bat which does not agree with the Word.
    
    					Regards,
    							/Greg

    
    
    Greg,
    
      Would it not be easier to try to explain yourself thereby edifying
    those here that are seeking to understand, than to offer vague and 
    undescript generalities??
    
      I sense another "dusting off" on the horizon.
    
    sincerely,
    
     Dan 

    I sense an attitude not in line with the Word either, Greg.  So big
    deal - you and I both "sense" something.  And how do we make sense out
    of our senses?
    
    I submit for your consideration that you sense opposition to something
    that is meaningful for you, and because it's meaningful for you, you
    automatically assume it's of G-d.  You're being asked to test what
    you're holding on to there, and it appears to me that when you're
    questioned that way, you sense an affront on G-d and His Word.
    
    Are we not told to test the spirits?  Are we not told to hold on to
    what's good and to get rid of what isn't?
    
    This is hard for all of us, but we need to put our dearly held,
    meaningful experiences at the feet of Him who *alone* can make sense
    out of them.
    
    Don't shy away from testing your experiences against the Word.
    
    
    Steve

    
    	Hi Dan,
    				"All scripture is given by inspiration
    	of God and is profitable for reproof, correction, for doctrine
    	and for instruction in righteousness."  There are 4 reasons for 
    	scripture as cited by the Holy Spirit.  The Word of God is the
    	standard with which we should test things.  There are several
    	possibilities: a.) agrees, b.) disagrees, c.) does not disagree
    	but if it does agree, it is not understood _how_ it agrees.
    
    		Lets take a for instance.   There are some who use
    	their ability for mental imagery to construct lewd mental 
    	images.  Is that of God?  No.
    
    		A brother is walking along and suddenly, their face
    	turns red because a sudden mental picture crossed their mind.
    	Is that imagination of God?  Did they contruct it out of their
    	own imagination?  Or, did it come from somewhere else?  If it
    	came from somewhere else, then where did it come from?  The
    	Word of God says that "there are many voices in the world and
    	none are without significance."  Thus, it had to come from 
    	somewhere!  ( This is important to understand because thoughts,
    	words, and mental images do not just happen by chance. ).
    	The Bible says to "cast down imaginations which exalt themselves
    	against the knowledge of God".  You can tell that imagination is 
    	in specific disagreement with the Word of God.  You know the verse.
    	You know what you are supposed to do.  You are supposed to 
    	"cast it down".  The thing is: imaginations can be self-generated, 
    	or they can be externally projected images.
    
    		I regard an open vision as an externally projected 
    	image that comes specifically from the Holy Spirit.  I regard
    	an "imagination" as something that is not inspired of God.  I 
    	would differentiate this from seeing *into* the spirit realm as 
    	Elisha did, ( and then prayed for Gehazi to be able to see
    	the same thing ).
    		
    		The thing is: I really do believe, because God is
    	so good, that many people experience the gifts, touch, and
    	communication of the Holy Spirit.  But, because they do not
    	understand how He works, they miss it.  Its sort of like
    	when Samuel heard the voice of the Lord, and twice went 
    	back to Eli to ask what he wanted.  It took some time for
    	them to realize that God was actually speaking to Samuel.
    	Yet, the testimony of Samuel in the Word of God was that
    	"he let none of the words of the Lord drop unto the ground".
    
    
    								/Greg

    
    	Also,
    				The devil is a counterfeiter.  He wants
    	to give people the cheap imitation so that they miss the real
    	thing.  The counterfeit is imaginations.  The real thing is
    	visions.  What are the scriptures?  I already gave some...
    	2 Cor. 10:4, Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28.
    								/Greg

    I would submit that the best (and most profitable) vision we will ever
    have (in this life) of the Lord Jesus will come from meditation (i.e.,
    *really* thinking upon) the Word of God.  This is not just from my
    thinking -- it comes from the Word of God.
    
    "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in
    all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Luke 24:27
    
    "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the
    Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by
    the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:18  (Note that the "glass"
    spoken of here is the Scriptures.  The most important thing to see when
    we look into the Scriptures is the glory of the Lord.)
    
    Mark L.

    
    	Mark,
    			The Word of God also specifies certain actions
    	that are supposed to accompany reading the Word such as "pray
    	without ceasing", "in everything give thanks for this is the
    	will of God concerning you", "praise the Lord", "without faith
    	it is impossible to please God", "walk in the Spirit and you
    	will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh", "as many as are led
    	by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God", etc.  I think 
    	of it alot like a fuel mixture.  If its all air, or all gas
    	then you do not get any results.  If you mix it the wrong way,
    	you waste fuel.  If you mix it perfectly, you maximize your
    	efficiency.  Similarly, we are to mix the washing water of the
    	Word, with prayer, praise, and faith as led and directed by
    	the Spirit, since the Word does say, "If any man have not the
    	Spirit, he is none of this."
    
    								/Greg

    Greg,

    No argument on the points of what it means to walk in obedience to
    God's word.  However, I do not agree that "visions" are to be
    considered as the "real thing" that God wants us to have -- His Word is
    the "real thing".  If we "elevate" visions above His Word, we *are*
    headed for something real, but it's real deception.
    
    Mark L.

Greg,

What is the difference between imaginations and visions?   How do we know
which is which?  How do we know if it is from God (vision) and not from God 
(imagination)?

    I'm not Greg :-) , but I thought I'd add a note of clarification.
    
    The word for "imaginations" in 2 Cor 10:5 is the word for "reasonings". 
    To me, it speaks of our natural way of thinking -- "But the natural man
    receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
    unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually
    discerned."  "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but
    the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are
    freely given to us of God." (2 Cor. 2:14,12)  Our natural way of
    thinking stands in opposition to God's way (cf. Is. 55:9).  We need to
    be careful that our thoughts are directed by God, according to His
    Word, through the working of His Spirit.  This is how we will be
    "bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ".
    
    Mark L.

    	2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of
    			man: but holy men of God were _moved_ by the Holy
    			Ghost".
    
    			That is, they were moved by God rather than by men.
    
    									
    								/Greg	

                         
    			One of the open visions that I have frequently
    	is seeing Jesus _in_ people.  For instance, we had a Christian
    	evangelist at our church, Reverend Jose Matos.  As he stood
    	there singing of the love of Jesus, I could see the image of
    	Jesus in the Spirit upon him.  On several occasions, while
    	stopping to pause and wash my hands at the lavatory, the Lord
    	opened my eyes to see the reflection of Jesus in the mirror. 
    	This is an important spiritual principle.  Consider, when the
    	High Priest entered into the Most Holy place, one of the first
    	things he did was to throw up an incense offering, a smoke-
    	screen.  When God looks down at Christians, he does not see
    	a sinful, defiled, dirty body.  He sees Jesus.  This is the
    	mystery of the atonement covering.  God is perfect.  He does 
    	not want to see an imperfect, sinful church.  That is why the 
    	blood is so very important.  Also, in the Spirit, we are being 
    	changed into the image of Christ from glory to glory even as by 
    	the Spirit of the Lord.  That image is quite real.  The Lord
    	simply let me see a bit of what how sees us!  Praise God!
    	
    								/Greg

	It seems like many different topics are getting touched upon
 	in this one.

	I skimmed through most of the replies, but some comments that
	came to mind:
	
	o yes, God says he'll give us the desires of our hearts... now,
	  no where in scripture does it say that those desires will follow
	  X days (weeks, years) after we pray for them.  If I've prayed for
	  something that I haven't physically received, I may ask the Lord
	  if there's anything I'm doing to block receiving.  I'd hesitate
	  to think like Cho, that I'm not being specific enough (like Jim's
	  point).  

	  BTW (and mostly a tangent), unforgiveness probably ranks up there
	  as a means to not receiving what we've prayed for.  I'm sure it's
	  not coincidence that Jesus talks about forgiveness just after
	  stating that our faith can move mountains (grossly over-paraphrased
	  Mark 11:24-25).

	o God will give us the desires of our hearts, but God also judges
	  the heart.  If our desires (relayed through prayers) aren't in line
	  with God's word, we shouldn't be asking for them in the first place.

	And now, I've forgotten any other comments I may have had...

	Karen

    For an interesting study, see how many times the word "vision" is used
    in the New Testament after the book of Acts.
    
    Well, I'll do it for you:
    
$conc -s" vision" rom rev

2Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come 
    to visions and revelations of the Lord. 

Revelation 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on 
    them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the 
    heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths 
    issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 

    The conclusion of the above exercise is left to the reader.
    
    Mark L.

    	Mark,
    
    	My conclusion is that you omitted the book of Acts, the Gospels,
    	and the Old Testament.                                       
    							
    								/Greg

    
    Believe it or not folks I've had two "visions" that I dare call by
    that name.  Both were visual as you would expect but were not
    accompanied by miracles or any supernatural phenomena.
    
    One was a vision of a forking road with one path leading to darkness
    and the other to God.  This was at a time of great struggle for me
    spiritually where I was considering leaving a very sinful lifestyle.  I
    was confused on how to go about making the decision.  Along with the
    vision were the thoughts of God saying I am presenting a choice to you,
    make the right one.  I did in large part as a rsult of such a clear
    vision from God.
    
    Another vision was that of a woman I knew who was a Christian but was
    terribly sick emotionally.  I got severely entangled with her and she
    got obsessive and was terribly suicidal.  Because of her overt
    disregard for my desires and wishes and the subsequent desire to be rid
    of her and the equally weighty commitment I had made to God not to run
    from terribly difficult circumstances, I needed to have some compassion
    for her.  I had a vision of her one night - she was standing on a beach 
    with torrential rains and hurricane winds blowing her as she held on
    with all of her life to a pole to keep from being swept away.  With
    this vision I understood the reality of her emotional condition and
    compassion for her was borne in me.  I subsequently treated her
    differently (even though she didn't change any) and learned to forebear
    difficult circumstances.
    
    FWIW,
    
    jeff

>    	My conclusion is that you omitted the book of Acts, the Gospels,
>    	and the Old Testament.                                       
    
    I'm not surprised.  But there is a good reason that I chose those
    books.  It is the epistles that form the basis for the life and
    practices of the New Testament believer.  The book of Acts is primarily
    a book of *history*, and a doctrine *based* on the book of Acts is one
    to be wary of.
    
    My conclusion is, God doesn't have much to say about visions as
    something we should be looking for.
    
    Mark L.

    
    		Discerning between visions, imaginations, seeing into the
    	realm of the spirit requires experience, a good understanding of
    	the Word, and a close relation with the Spirit.  For instance, I
    	was once sitting in my office, and a man walked by my office.  He
    	is a Christian.  On his hands were shackles.  They were not phy-
    	sical shackles.  They were spiritual.  Was this a vision?  No.  The
    	Lord simply opened my eyes to see what he was wearing in the realm 
    	of the spirit.  It was not a vision.  It was a real-time event
    	occurring in the here and now.  The ability to see this was a
    	miracle.  But it was not my will.  It was God's will that I see
    	that, and the Holy Spirit moved on me.  Some of the questions that
    	needs to be asked in discernment include: does it produce a guilty
    	feeling of conviction on the conscience?   If it does, then it is
    	something that the Holy Spirit _internally_ is telling you to cast
    	down.  Is it self-generated?  If it is - then it is imagination.
    	Is it a real-time event?  Something that is happening in the here 
    	and now?   
    
    		Is imagination good?  Well... the Bible says that faith
    	is the substance of things hoped for.  We need our imaginations to
    	hope for things.  We need faith in order to give them substance.
    	We need our conscience in order to decide whether we really should 
    	or should not give them substance by praying in faith for them.
	If we are imagining something wrong, then conviction will move in
    	our hearts to let us know that we do not want to think about that
    	thing.  Note, also that in Romans 2, men "liked not to keep God
    	in their minds", and he "turned them over to a reprobate mind to
    	do those things which were inconvenient."  So, we want to avoid
    	bad imaginations.  And, we do not want to resist the hand of God,
    	because He is a God of compassion, mercy, and grace - but He is
    	also quite able to assert who is the Boss!
    
    								/Greg

    
    Why do I get the feeling that something is not right here?  Just my
    opinion.
    
    Kent

    Hi Kent!
    
    Long time no see!
    
    Your opinion is welcome.  
    
    Nancy
    

No, it's not just you.

    		I'm sorry if you choose not to believe it, but it 
    	is true, and "your young men shall see visions" was not
    	my word but God's.
    						Regards,
    								/Greg

    Greg,
    
    I never said I do not believe it.  What I have said is that the New
    Testament places no emphasis on it, unlike some notes that I have seen
    in this string.  The only mention of "visions" in the epistles is in
    2 Cor 12, where Paul has some pretty interesting things to say about "a
    man in Christ" (I personally believe that the "man in Christ" *is* the
    apostle Paul) who had some pretty astounding visions and experiences. 
    For example,
      3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body,
        I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
      4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable
        words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
      5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but
        in mine infirmities.
      6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I
        will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think
        of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of
        me.
     
    Mark L.

    Do we agree that visions are one of the many ways God, through the
    Holy Spirit communicates with us?
    
    Do we agree that some visions come from other sources [self, the evil
    one]?
    
    In anticipation of a "Yes" to both of the above:
    
    1.  If the vision is from God, then we should not dismiss it or make
        light of it, but respond as the communication dictates.
    
    2.  In order to tell the source we need the gift of discernment;
        a gift of the Holy Spirit.
    
    God clearly communicates to people in many ways throughout scripture;
    the words, "God said to ___name___" appears something like 5000 times
    in the Bible. Before there were words on tablets, scrolls or paper
    they were spoken or otherwise communicated to people by means of
    visions, dreams, inner or exterior voices, or through other people.
    
    In the Old Testament the prophets, priests and others anointed by God
    primarily received the major communications. With the atoning sacrifice 
    of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of the Lord has been poured out on us all.
    This was the promise of Christ and it is also the revelation of the 
    Old Testament that we would "dream dreams and prophecize" in the latter
    days. 
    
    In 1 John, we are admonished not to suppress the Spirit, but to discern
    everything and keep what is good. Certainly a test is against
    scripture. 
    
    The fact that visions are only mentioned a few times does not mean 
    much. Probably compared to the many subtle ways the Spirit moves us
    each day just through our normal thoughts, we could have visions every
    day and still maintain a 5000/100 ratio [or whatever] between inner
    promptings that come verbally, through thoughts, and visually through
    visions and dreams. 
    
    God, through His Spirit is ALWAYS counseling us; visions are only a
    vehicle for the message. What is important is the message and the skill
    of discernment.
    
    If we all recognized this gift from God and understood it properly then
    we would certainly have no cause for 'boasting' about it. It is only
    because we tend to restrict and suppress it, or keep it to ourselves
    for fear of being attacked or evaluated that it is seen as being 
    extraordinary.
    
    Mary