Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Well, OK Jay, since you have opened this note...

    What about Luther's passionate anti-Semitism?  Was it just a cultural
    prejudice, or did he think he had a theological basis for his view of
    the Jews? 

    I have always been uncomfortable with his view of the Jews, and was
    never sure where the bathwater stopped and the baby started...

    /John

    Luther didn't always feel this way about Jews.  I've seen quotes from
    his early years that were very pro-Jewish.  It was later in life in his
    waning years that he said the anti-Semitic stuff.
    
    Mike

    Jay, 

    That's just the point - the very fact that he was such a great man,
    such a religious genius, that makes the incongruity of his hatred of
    the Jews stand out so glaringly.  

    I'm curious how much credence Messianic congregations give his writings
    in view of his prejudice.  I would think it would be a real barrier to
    acceptance of *any* of his writing, particularly in the last fifty
    years, after the Third Reich used Luther's views in the justification
    of their "final solution of the Jewish problem".
    
    /John
         

	Luther thought that his new doctrines would cause the Jews
	to convert to Christianity en masse.

	They didn't, and he got upset with them and wrote some pretty
	nasty stuff about them in his treatise "Against the Jews".

/john

    I admit my ignorance.  Can someone give me a brief description of the
    beginnings of the Luthern Church and what is different/unique about it
    as opposed to all the other Christian Churches?
    
    Jill2

   As human beings we all have limitations, prejudices, and blind spots.
   Some people to a greater degree and others to a lesser degree.  One
   area that most people have some trouble with is a kind of all or nothing
   attitude, ie.  what someone says and does must align perfectly with what
   you think and believe or you cannot accept any of what they do or teach.
   I am slowly beginning to understand how a person can be respected and
   honored in one area while at the same time disagreeing with them or even
   being saddened or dismayed at their stand in another area.  

   Luther is someone whom I can respect in some areas, while acknowledging
   that he was way off base in other areas, blinded by his own expectations
   and impatience of character.  Some of the very same character traits
   that may have made him do and teach some great things are the very same 
   character traits that contributed to some of the worst, most terrible
   things he said and did.

   This is from memory so it may be off on some details, but I hope that it
   is accurate in general.  Martin Luther lived from 1483 to 1586.

   Luther really began the Protestant Reformation, but not by intent, at least
   in the beginning.  He was a pious Catholic monk, but no matter what he did 
   he did feel right with God.  There were people who chastised themselves for 
   their sin with self-flagelation by whips. Luther may have done this, but
   he saw that it did not put one in a right relationship with God.  He was
   dismayed by some of the corruption he saw in the Catholic church, especially
   the buying and selling of penances.  He poured over Scripture and became
   convinced that salvation was through faith in God and the death and 
   resurrection of Jesus alone. He set out to reform the Catholic church, not 
   to start a new church.  He drafted a document containing a list of points 
   and reforms and nailed it to the door where the ruling Catholic clergy met 
   in Germany.  I think it was in town called Worms.

   This did not have the effect Luther hoped for.  Instead of beginning a 
   time of reform within the Catholic church, he was cast out.  In fact I 
   think he was put on trial for his beliefs at various times, and even had 
   to flee for his life. The time was ripe for change though, and the Protestant
   Reformation was begun.  Luther was a leading figure in the Reformation, 
   along with other men (I think John Knox (b. 1505) and John Calvin (b. 1509)
   both may have contributed to the Reformation). I think the wonderful artist,
   Albrecht Durer, lived during this time period and was a supporter of Martin
   Luther and the Reformation as well.  The Lutheran denomination took its 
   name from Martin Luther.

   Luther's dreams did not all turn out as he had hoped, and he had some
   great disappointments in his life. When he was younger, he had been dis-
   mayed and angered at anti-Semitism, but his expectation was that if the
   gospel were presented without all the forced conversion then the Jewish 
   people would flock to Jesus as the Messiah. When this did not happen 
   according to his expectations he grew angry and bitter, and became a 
   terrible anti-Semite.  He wrote tracts which encouraged the burning down 
   of Jewish synagogues, homes, and businesses. Some of his writings were 
   used as justification by Nazi Germamy in its campaign against the Jews 
   which we now know as the holocaust.  I have read one of his anti-Semitic
   tracts. It is truely terrible and ugly, yet some of his theological 
   writings contain great insight into the Scriptures, and great truth and
   wisdom.  He is a man of paradox.

   Leslie

    "Perhaps I will attract some of the Jews to the Christian faith.  For
    our fools - the popes, bishops, sophists, and monks - the coarse
    blockheads! have until this time so treated the Jews that...if I had
    been a Jew and had seen such idiots and blockheads ruling and teaching
    the Christian religion, I would rather have been a sow than a
    Christian.  For they have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs and
    not human beings."
    
    Martin Luther, "That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew," 1523, reprinted in
    Frank Ephraim Talmage, ed., "Disputation and Dialogue: Readings in the
    Jewish-Christian Encounter," (New York: Ktav/Anti-Defamation League of
    B'nai B'rith, 1975), p. 33.
    
    20 years later when the Jews did not convert en masse, when Luther was
    old and sick, and after seeing some blasphemous anti-Christian
    literature written by Jews, he said this when asked, "What shall we
    Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?"
    
    "First, their synagogues should be set on fire...Secondly, their homes
    should likewise be broken down and destroyed...Thirdly, they should be
    deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds...Fourthly, their rabbis
    must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...Fifthly,
    passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the
    Jews...Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury [charging interest
    on loans]...Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be
    given the flail, the ax, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle,
    and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses...We ought to
    drive the rascally lazy bones out of our system...Therefore away with
    them...To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your
    domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better
    one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish
    burden - the Jews."
    
    Martin Luther, "Concerning the Jews and Their lies," reprinted in
    Talmage, Disputation and Dialogue, pp. 34-36.
    
    Both quotes are taken from "Our Hands are Stained with Blood," by
    Michael L. Brown.  I highly recommend this book, written by a Messianic
    Jew, that details the tragic story of the "Church" and the Jewish
    People.
    
    Mike

      Hi,
    
        I think I remember reading that Luther, at one time, was unaware
        that justification is by faith and he did a lot of penances.  He
        used to walk up hard stairs on his knees and stuff like that.
    
        Then the verse hit him, "The just shall live by faith" and it just
        blew him away.
    
        I think he would have been willing to die a martyr for Christ.
        For him to stand up to the church at that time was just incredible.
    
        His anti-semitism is most unfortunate.
    
    							Tony

    re .-1
    
    Not long - I don't think he spoke very good English ;-)
    
    Love
    ben

   He would probably be smart enough to learn how fairly quickly,
   and he could probably run circles around most of us in terms
   of knowing the Scriptures.

   Leslie

    Luther's "Table Talk" is available from CBD for $21.95. It's stock
    # 03486. 

    The number for ordering books or requesting a catalog(ue) from CBD is 
    1-508-977-5000. That phone line is staffed Mon - Fri. 7AM - Midnight, 
    and Saturdays 9 AM to 5 PM Eastern Standard Time.  

    You can also make a automated call (you reach a machine not a person) 
    24 hours a day, 7 days a week if you have a touch-tone phone, and use 
    VISA or MC to make your payment. That number is 1-508-977-5080.

    I just got their Fall/Winter '95 Academic Catalog in the mail yesterday
    & happen to have it with me. :-)

    Leslie